Better Battery Life For Mobile Devices?

[Ed Hansberry]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.com.com/2100-1033-978912.html' target='_blank'>http://news.com.com/2100-1033-978912.html</a><br /><br /></div>Portable electronic devices have made huge advances over the years. Many of you are walking around with a Pocket PC that would embarrass your $3,000 desktop you purchased in 1996. One area though that is moving at a snails pace is battery technology. Yeah, I know, we no longer have memory effects, recharges are faster and overall lifetime is longer, but if the time between recharges had grown anything like the rest of the technology in your hand over the past 5 years, all of our devices would last hundreds of hours before the low battery warning appeared.<br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2003/20030103-battery.gif" /><br />Well, don't look for anything earth shattering down the road. :roll: "The improvement in battery life could be achieved by using smarter power-control algorithms." oh yay. Better algorithms. I can see us in 3-4 years where batteries are the huge limiting factor. As more and more places are enabled for wireless access and people are increasingly using cell phones for more than yacking and PDAs for more than cool day planners, getting 6 hours out of a device is really going to hurt productivity. The same can be said for laptops. With my WiFi card in my Latitude C610, I get maybe 2.5 hrs. I just find it interesting of all the things we've done in the past 100 years, advances in portable electricity is one of the areas that just moves too slow for the cool things we are trying to power, from cars to computers.

[KyleC]

I have to say that battery life is one of the drawbacks from switching from Palm to Pocket PC. My old m100 could get a month or two of my kind of use without replacing the batteries. Now I have to charge my e310 every day or two days, which can get kind or annoying. I don't go on any trips without the charging cable at least (which, with the brick in the middle of it, is kind or a nucance. If there comes better battery technology, I'm sure that Thoughts will let us know. :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

I have to say that battery life is one of the drawbacks from switching from Palm to Pocket PC. My old m100 could get a month or two of my kind of use without replacing the batteries.
Kyle, it makes no sense to compare a monochrome Dragonball unit to a Pocket PC running ARM with a large color display. All modern Palms and Pocket PC's suffer from poor battery life. The possible exceptions here include the Jornada 568, the iPaq 3970, the Pocket PC Phone, and the Axim, but even these guys max out at 10-20 hours of use. The Tungsten and the NX70 don't even achieve that much.

--janak

[Kati Compton]

Kyle, it makes no sense to compare a monochrome Dragonball unit to a Pocket PC running ARM with a large color display. All modern Palms and Pocket PC's suffer from poor battery life. The possible exceptions here include the Jornada 568, the iPaq 3970, the Pocket PC Phone, and the Axim, but even these guys max out at 10-20 hours of use. The Tungsten and the NX70 don't even achieve that much.


Of course it doesn't make sense if you're comparing what each unit does and for how long, but I think it's fair to miss having a longer time between recharges. I think Kyle's adding to Ed's lament that battery technology hasn't improved along with the technology. I know that going from my old Palm IIIx to an Axim that I've gotten a ton more features and a lot more power. But the battery hasn't grown at pace with that. If it had, I would be able to do all the new cooler things for just as long using "new" battery technology along with new screen, processor, etc. technology.

[Gen-M]

I'm afraid we will have to wait for fuel cells.

Isn't one due out this year? :?

[KyleC]

Kyle, it makes no sense to compare a monochrome Dragonball unit to a Pocket PC running ARM with a large color display. All modern Palms and Pocket PC's suffer from poor battery life. The possible exceptions here include the Jornada 568, the iPaq 3970, the Pocket PC Phone, and the Axim, but even these guys max out at 10-20 hours of use. The Tungsten and the NX70 don't even achieve that much.


Of course it doesn't make sense if you're comparing what each unit does and for how long, but I think it's fair to miss having a longer time between recharges. I think Kyle's adding to Ed's lament that battery technology hasn't improved along with the technology. I know that going from my old Palm IIIx to an Axim that I've gotten a ton more features and a lot more power. But the battery hasn't grown at pace with that. If it had, I would be able to do all the new cooler things for just as long using "new" battery technology along with new screen, processor, etc. technology.

Exactly. :D

[szamot]

Speaking of battery life my Axim extended battery just came in, that thing is large but still very stylish. No more power problems for me.
And while we are on the subject I do agree with Janak on this, I used to kill the battery on my Palm 505 in 3 -5 hours of playing 1942 which is why I promptly sold it two weeks later and got an iPAQ instead.

[Kati Compton]

And while we are on the subject I do agree with Janak on this, I used to kill the battery on my Palm 505 in 3 -5 hours of playing 1942 which is why I promptly sold it two weeks later and got an iPAQ instead.

I don't see it as a "Palms have better battery life than PPCs" argument anymore. I think of it more as "Come on, guys! You all have poorer battery life than you should! Let's put some $ into battery research!" Battery life hasn't kept up with the changes in the Palm line either.

[johncj]

Did you have to put "better battery life" next to "Vaporware"? This is probably the biggest vaporware technology of all time. Lithium-Ion was the last advance in techology and I would not even call it a "major" advance. Almost all of the improvement we've seen has been in lower power devices, not better batteries. Given all the money to be made with better batteries, I have to think that this is just a really hard problem.

[Janak Parekh]

I have to think that this is just a really hard problem.
Indeed, it is. Sorry Kyle, I've just heard the "but my Palm used to last forever...!" argument one too many times. ;) Worse is the fact that even with the new Palm devices, the companies say "approximately one or two weeks' use, given typical situations". That worked when the Palm lasted for 30-40 hours or so on one set of batteries, but not anymore.

Ironically, I am much happier since I moved to my iPaq, because I hated having to go out and buy new AAA batteries for my Palm, and because I typically have recharging opportunities all the time. And with my double-battery setup (1400mah in the unit + 920mah in the CF+ sleeve), I've stopped looking at the battery gauge. :)

--janak

[jizmo]

I'm looking forward to the time that every PDA has its own fission reactor. Just drop in a couple drops of water and you're settled few few hundred hours more. 8)

/jizmo

[SofaTater]

Given all the money to be made with better batteries, I have to think that this is just a really hard problem.

I think this is true. If someone could come up with a small, longlife, quick charge battery for portable electronics, they would make more money than Bill Gates.

I remember reading an article -- can't remember where (NY Times, maybe) -- about a year ago about the search for new battery technology. A lot of companies/labs are working on this problem, but a good affordable solution has not been found yet.

[KyleC]

I hated having to go out and buy new AAA batteries for my Palm

So did I, and this was one of the reasons that I had for a new handheld. However, I was noting that I am a lot more conscious of my battery percentage ever since it's measued in increments of one and the low battery warning sounds at 50%. :?

[Janak Parekh]

I'm looking forward to the time that every PDA has its own fission reactor. Just drop in a couple drops of water and you're settled few few hundred hours more. 8)
:lol: Only problem is, you'll be sterile, but we don't care about that now, do we, with a Pocket PC that lasts forever, eh? :twisted:

--janak

[KyleC]

I'm looking forward to the time that every PDA has its own fission reactor. Just drop in a couple drops of water and you're settled few few hundred hours more. 8)

/jizmo

Fission requires atoms, not molecules, and large atoms at that. I can just see you going into a local drugstore and asking for Uranium to put in your handheld. :lol:

Perhaps fusion would be better... it would require Hydrogen and produce Helium. And we will have a portable fusion reactor by 2015 because I saw it in Back to the Future 2! 8)

[John Cody]

I remember reading a news blurb about 15-20 years ago about a company that invented an "RF battery" in which the battery converted the various RF signals (that are always present in the air) into DC power - suitable for powering mobile devices. In theory it’s possible (i.e. using a charge-pump type design), but I have never heard of anything about it since.

Imagine never needing to charge or change a battery in a device because it is always being recharged by the RF power that floats around us everyday ;)

I can’t remember which publication I read it in, but it was probably Radio-Electronics or Electronic Engineering Times. I tried searching the Internet and some magazine databases, even the U.S. Patent Office database, but could not find anything. Does anyone else remembering hearing of such a technology?

I’m wondering if some Battery/Power company bought the technology, then killed it?

[JonnoB]

Honestly, battery life has been improved, but the consumption of energy is keeping pace...

[Janak Parekh]

Honestly, battery life has been improved, but the consumption of energy is keeping pace...
Yes, but not at the same pace as the rest of technology. The rest of technology is about 5 orders of magnitude ahead. :)

--janak

[Jimmy Dodd]

I'm looking forward to the time that every PDA has its own fission reactor. Just drop in a couple drops of water and you're settled few few hundred hours more. 8)

/jizmo

Fission requires atoms, not molecules, and large atoms at that. I can just see you going into a local drugstore and asking for Uranium to put in your handheld. :lol:

Perhaps fusion would be better... it would require Hydrogen and produce Helium. And we will have a portable fusion reactor by 2015 because I saw it in Back to the Future 2! 8)

Cool! Long life and the helium could make it lighter, too. :lol:

[KyleC]

Honestly, battery life has been improved, but the consumption of energy is keeping pace...

The Oracle has spoken! :werenotworthy:

[Unreal32]

I remember reading a news blurb about 15-20 years ago about a company that invented an "RF battery" in which the battery converted the various RF signals (that are always present in the air) into DC power - suitable for powering mobile devices. In theory it’s possible (i.e. using a charge-pump type design), but I have never heard of anything about it since.

Imagine never needing to charge or change a battery in a device because it is always being recharged by the RF power that floats around us everyday ;)

I can’t remember which publication I read it in, but it was probably Radio-Electronics or Electronic Engineering Times. I tried searching the Internet and some magazine databases, even the U.S. Patent Office database, but could not find anything. Does anyone else remembering hearing of such a technology?

I’m wondering if some Battery/Power company bought the technology, then killed it?

You're not dreaming:

http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20000904harvest1.asp

This idea comes from crystal-radio sets which needed no external power supply... they harvested small amounts of energy directly from RF signals in the air.

Also, in a similar vein (but not nearly as cool):

http://www.planetanalog.com/story/OEG20021029S0026

[lithium]

I'm afraid we will have to wait for fuel cells.

Isn't one due out this year? :?

I agree, that we'll need a source of energy that generates power rather than storing it- be it fuel cells or fission reactors :wink: . The power densities of batteries can increase only so much- limited by chemistry. "Lithium is the lightest of all metals, has the greatest electrochemical potential and provides the largest energy density for weight."* Power density is how much power can be stored per unit of weight of a battery. We could have mucho battery life in a PDA but, at the expense of weight. Who would like to carry around a car battery in their pocket?

*from "Is Lithium-ion the ideal battery?"
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5.htm

[johncj]

Lithium Ion batteries have been available since 1994. Quick, think about what your handheld device was like in 1994. Yes, they've improved somewhat since then, but the advances in lowering the power consumption of processors, storage devices, and even screens have outstripped the improvements in battery technology.

[John Cody]

You're not dreaming:

http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20000904harvest1.asp

This idea comes from crystal-radio sets which needed no external power supply... they harvested small amounts of energy directly from RF signals in the air.

Thats so funny... I was actually going to mention the crystal radio in my post. Thanks for verifying my sanity ;)

Now, if only some company would come out with a "Battery" that charges itself by RF :)

[KyleC]

Lithium,
Isn't it great to post for something other than a giveaway?

[lithium]

:oops:

[johncj]

Here's a rather mundane product that uses the power from RF transmitted to it to transmit back:

http://www.ncr.com/products/hardware/esl.htm

[szamot]

it is all but a pipe dream boys and girls, there is far too much money to be made in energy sector to just "give it away" Didn't Tesla think this up before. Anyway I can see Telcos boosting up their power and selling you not only your cell service but your net access and well power - that might be cool. Get a new XDA and now you have 3 items on your bill. cell, data and power. That might work. Not to mention how much money would be saved by not having to print "Batteries not included - equiped with a power leech" 8O

[szamot]

Here's a rather mundane product that uses the power from RF transmitted to it to transmit back:

http://www.ncr.com/products/hardware/esl.htm

..all you need to add to it is a motion sensor and as people pick the product off the shelf the store sees the demand go up - the store ups the price accordingly. Neat.

[Bob Anderson]

OK... I am disappointed in power being the limiting factor for true mobility... but I grow sick and tired of the old saying "if technology was applied to batteries like "X" then we'd have 400 run hours..." statements. :evil: Why?

1. Expectations lead to frustrations -- my boss often quotes this saying and it's applicable here. We expect that all technology will advance at the same pace. Problem is it won't! So take every minor improvement and be grateful. :)

2. Not every technology can advance at the same pace as others. For various reasons. My prime example is the fork! Yeah, that's right, the lowly old eating utensil called the fork... How many hundreds of years has it been around? And has it improved - maybe. If it even closely followed Moore's law... the thing would self-load and deliver food without handling... it would protect users from jabbing their tongue or other bodily parts... it would adapt to different types of food ... and finally would adjust it's temperature to match the food it was delivering to the recipients mouth (cold for salads, hot for roasts) ... :lol:

So, having vented now... my point is battery technology is making improvements albeit slowly... but it has to feed an ever growing chorus of additional features. My first laptop didn't have half the stuff on it that my new one does. And my new one does last longer (by a factor of 2) than that old IBM Thinkpad did (a 486sx25)... so things are getting better, just slower than we'd all like. Scientists are working on things - and one day we won't be talking about batteries but instead will discuss why fuel cells aren't improving fast enough!

Sorry for the rant here... other than the "double space" issue this is one that really gets me going!

[Daniel]

Here's a rather mundane product that uses the power from RF transmitted to it to transmit back:

http://www.ncr.com/products/hardware/esl.htm
The pens in the TabletPCs based on the Wacom tablet use similar technology (probably the same). The screen transmits to the stylus which uses the energy to transmit back. Probably not enogh power to run a PPC though.

Daniel

[Ed Hansberry]

2. Not every technology can advance at the same pace as others. For various reasons. My prime example is the fork! Yeah, that's right, the lowly old eating utensil called the fork... How many hundreds of years has it been around? And has it improved - maybe. If it even closely followed Moore's law... the thing would self-load and deliver food without handling... it would protect users from jabbing their tongue or other bodily parts... it would adapt to different types of food ... and finally would adjust it's temperature to match the food it was delivering to the recipients mouth (cold for salads, hot for roasts) ... :lol:

The fork is adequate to the task. The battery is not.

[T-Will]

Wasn't there a company making a centrifugal force wristwatch that charges the battery when you move your arm?

[Deslock]

Man, this is a "glass is half-empty" thread if I ever saw one. Sure, chemical battery technology is slow to improve and nothing else has become cheap enough to be mainstream.

On the other hand, look at the size and weight of the laptops that came out 10 years ago and the *horrid* displays people had to put up with. My 2.7 pound Sony Vaio SRX99 easily gets 4+ hours of battery life, has wifi, 10/100, 56k, 40GB 5400 RPM hdd, an XGA screen, and was reasonably priced. I picked up a new spare battery on Ebay (also for a reasonable price) so I can use it all day without worry.

Likewise, the Casio E-1xx series weighed *more than twice* as much as my HP1910. Sure, the HP1910 battery only lasts 4-4.5 hours, but it's 4.2 ounces, has a backup battery and, more importantly, a removable primary battery. Considering it only cost $199 for the device, I wasn't too unhappy shelling out $40 for a 2nd battery, which is so small and lightweight that I don't mind carrying it.

Yeah, my old PalmIII did a hell of a lot better than that for battery life, but considering how nice the HP1910's screen is, I have no complaints.

The point is, there are a lot of options out there. Just pay attention to the watt-hour ratings (Amps * Voltage) of the batteries, screen size/type, and CPU type.

[Bill Gunn]

2. Not every technology can advance at the same pace as others. For various reasons. My prime example is the fork! Yeah, that's right, the lowly old eating utensil called the fork... How many hundreds of years has it been around? And has it improved - maybe. If it even closely followed Moore's law... the thing would self-load and deliver food without handling... it would protect users from jabbing their tongue or other bodily parts... it would adapt to different types of food ... and finally would adjust it's temperature to match the food it was delivering to the recipients mouth (cold for salads, hot for roasts) ... :lol:



This is seriously funny! I'm gonna steal it.

[Bob Anderson]

The fork is adequate to the task. The battery is not.

I guess that's up to individual decision making... Having my fully loaded Dell laptop do 802.11b and burn CD Roms for 2.5 hours at my local Starbucks is adequate for my needs.

Now, I could certainly use a fork that did more of the work for me! Then I could spend more time posting thoughts on PPC Thoughts! :wink: (Especially when there are giveaways involved!)

Ed- I was wondering if you'd call me on my original post... and you most certainly did. Your points, by the way are very well taken... I just had to comment on this because you aren't the only one that brings this issue up and it's just one of those pet peeves... kinda like DRM!

[vincentsiaw]

maybe, the atomic battery that had just been invented, will really provided power for our handheleld for 25 years non stop, i wish by that time i still alive......

[Kati Compton]

Yeah, but just think about what happens when you drop a PDA that uses an atomic battery.... ;)

[Malmer]

I remember reading a news blurb about 15-20 years ago about a company that invented an "RF battery" in which the battery converted the various RF signals (that are always present in the air) into DC power - suitable for powering mobile devices. In theory it’s possible (i.e. using a charge-pump type design), but I have never heard of anything about it since.

Imagine never needing to charge or change a battery in a device because it is always being recharged by the RF power that floats around us everyday ;)

I can’t remember which publication I read it in, but it was probably Radio-Electronics or Electronic Engineering Times. I tried searching the Internet and some magazine databases, even the U.S. Patent Office database, but could not find anything. Does anyone else remembering hearing of such a technology?

I’m wondering if some Battery/Power company bought the technology, then killed it?

Actually the famous scientist Tesla dedicated his life to wireless electricity. He never found a sollution. The problem is that you can't transfer large amounts through the air. So what he was trying to do was to do it higher up, like 50 km (?) up in the air where the air is thinner. But the problem is getting the stuff down here. It works for lower power cosumtion though, I've heard. So maybe in cities we could charge our PDA:s with the microwaves from our cellphones.

It works in vacuum I think...heard someone was suggesting having huge solarpanels covering the moon and transmitting the energy to earth using that very tech.

[jojaboi]

I'm looking forward to the time that every PDA has its own fission reactor. Just drop in a couple drops of water and you're settled few few hundred hours more. 8)

/jizmo

Fission requires atoms, not molecules, and large atoms at that. I can just see you going into a local drugstore and asking for Uranium to put in your handheld. :lol:

Perhaps fusion would be better... it would require Hydrogen and produce Helium. And we will have a portable fusion reactor by 2015 because I saw it in Back to the Future 2! 8)

Yeah, but if you could have fission, youl'd prolly go through like 4-5 batteries from ur first battery powered puppy robot to ur last, super, light weight prtable breathing machine/pda :) . I doubt it would ever happen though. How they gonna convert heat to electricity in a small portable device/battery

[jojaboi]

I remember reading a news blurb about 15-20 years ago about a company that invented an "RF battery" in which the battery converted the various RF signals (that are always present in the air) into DC power - suitable for powering mobile devices. In theory it’s possible (i.e. using a charge-pump type design), but I have never heard of anything about it since.

Imagine never needing to charge or change a battery in a device because it is always being recharged by the RF power that floats around us everyday ;)

I can’t remember which publication I read it in, but it was probably Radio-Electronics or Electronic Engineering Times. I tried searching the Internet and some magazine databases, even the U.S. Patent Office database, but could not find anything. Does anyone else remembering hearing of such a technology?

I’m wondering if some Battery/Power company bought the technology, then killed it?

Actually the famous scientist Tesla dedicated his life to wireless electricity. He never found a sollution. The problem is that you can't transfer large amounts through the air. So what he was trying to do was to do it higher up, like 50 km (?) up in the air where the air is thinner. But the problem is getting the stuff down here. It works for lower power cosumtion though, I've heard. So maybe in cities we could charge our PDA:s with the microwaves from our cellphones.

It works in vacuum I think...heard someone was suggesting having huge solarpanels covering the moon and transmitting the energy to earth using that very tech.

Must be true, cause the rf sealing machines that we use at work, to bond different types of plastic together for containments , will make a fluorescent (sp?) bulb ligt up in your hand. One machine, so I'm told will light one up bout 60 ft away

[dma1965]

The entire face of my Citizen Eco-Drive watch is a solar cell, which uses ambient light to constantly trickle charge the internal battery, which is supposed to last seven years, but I have had mine for eight. Why can't this technology be applied to PDA's? If you could add a layer to the screen which turned it into a quite large solar cell, you could keep trickle charging it just by leaving it out on the counter. At the very least someone could put a solar cell at the top of the device, much like small pocket calculators use today. The technology exists and is cheap, so why has'nt anyone done it? :?:

[mirkazemisaman]

The entire face of my Citizen Eco-Drive watch is a solar cell, which uses ambient light to constantly trickle charge the internal battery, which is supposed to last seven years, but I have had mine for eight. Why can't this technology be applied to PDA's? If you could add a layer to the screen which turned it into a quite large solar cell, you could keep trickle charging it just by leaving it out on the counter. At the very least someone could put a solar cell at the top of the device, much like small pocket calculators use today. The technology exists and is cheap, so why has'nt anyone done it? :?:


I thought the Citizen's "Eco Drive" technology was a new thing and did not exist eight years ago. I don't mean sollar cells, but using them to make "Eco Drive" watches...

[Will T Smith]

I'm looking forward to the time that every PDA has its own fission reactor. Just drop in a couple drops of water and you're settled few few hundred hours more. 8)

/jizmo

Fission requires atoms, not molecules, and large atoms at that. I can just see you going into a local drugstore and asking for Uranium to put in your handheld. :lol:

Perhaps fusion would be better... it would require Hydrogen and produce Helium. And we will have a portable fusion reactor by 2015 because I saw it in Back to the Future 2! 8)

If your so confident in "Back to the Future" why hasn't your 2015 self already traveled back in time to deliver your beer powered "Mr Fusion" unit? ;-)

[Jimmy Dodd]

2. Not every technology can advance at the same pace as others. For various reasons. My prime example is the fork! Yeah, that's right, the lowly old eating utensil called the fork... How many hundreds of years has it been around? And has it improved - maybe. If it even closely followed Moore's law... the thing would self-load and deliver food without handling... it would protect users from jabbing their tongue or other bodily parts... it would adapt to different types of food ... and finally would adjust it's temperature to match the food it was delivering to the recipients mouth (cold for salads, hot for roasts) ... :lol:

The fork is adequate to the task. The battery is not.

Don't forget the "spork!" Evolution of cutlery at it's finest (available at your local KFC and elsewhere). :lol:

[Adam]

Must be true, cause the rf sealing machines that we use at work, to bond different types of plastic together for containments , will make a fluorescent (sp?) bulb ligt up in your hand. One machine, so I'm told will light one up bout 60 ft away

You can get the same effect by putting one in your microwave at home. Lightbulbs light up, too but they explode. bung "flouresent" and "microwave" into Google and you'll get some sites telling you how to perform fun experiments with your microwave. 8O

Remember microwaves work by heating up food through the transmission of energy to objects via electromagnetic radiation, and solar heaters use the same principle. All em waves carry energy and there are devices that can capture that energy, from solar panels to the stuff mentioned above. This may well the be way to go in the future as battery technology has a finite limit. Of course, as more research is made into "sustainable" energy generation, we may get improvements in em energy capture.

On teh current battery technology, I have two rechargeable AAs in my CD player that are recharged in situ, but can be replaced by alkalines if necessary and last about 10 hours play time (that's spinning a disc and operating a low power laser). Digital cameras have similar.

It's the same technology, but by being removable and standard I can make use of increasing battery capacity (2000ma are now available, I believe - I use 1800s in my camera). If a pda had the same (okay, they may need to be AAAs) then I wouldn't care so much about battery capacity - providing the memory could handle a power cut-off of say 1 min while batteries were replaced.

Yes I can carry a battery extender with AAs in it (did for my Psion, will do for my iPaq once I've soureced the parts), but this would be neater. These battereis add bulk (though I'm sure an AAA is thinner than a current iPaq - don't have one to compare with me) but that's all we're doing now. Trading off power capacity against size reduction (as someone else has pointed out) and that's just chemistry. :wink:

Hmmm, this started off merely as a post about putting things in microwaves and I seemed to have ended up spouting semi-educated opinions. Oh well, I'm sure some of it's correct... :)