Bob's Predictions for 2003

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030102.html' target='_blank'>http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/...it20030102.html</a><br /><br /></div>The always entertaining Robert X. Cringley talks about his predictions for 2003, but first he looks at his predictions from last year - not bad Bob, not bad at all!<br /><br />"I said that Microsoft would continue to expand .NET (correct), that XML would be the tool for that expansion (correct) and that KnowNow would be the big XML success story (not yet anyway -- wrong). I said there would be a slow resurgence of venture capital (correct) and that would lead to a rise in the number of Initial Public Offerings (well, there was an increase, but it wasn't enough to count -- wrong). I said that security technology would be a big deal (correct), but that rich media wouldn't be (correct again). I said that 2002 would be a pivotal year for broadband, whatever "pivotal" means (I don't think it was -- wrong). I said that Microsoft would do lots of deals as it attempted to diversify a bit (correct) and that 2002 would be a good year for Cisco Systems (you may not think so, but the stock is up 30 percent, market share has increased and gross profit margins are the highest ever -- correct). That is seven correct and three incorrect predictions, maintaining my historic average of 70 percent right. Whew!"<br /><br />In pasting in the above quote, I just realized that Mr. Robert X. Cringely puts a double-space after each period. Bob, Bob, Bob...we're not in the typewriter age anymore brother! :lol: Actually, I remember having quite a heated discussion about this last year with some Thoughts readers - so it's time for a poll!

[Ed Hansberry]

And once the votes are in, that will determine how we put periods from now on, right boss? I require 4 keytaps when concluding a sentence.

1. the period key
2. the space bar
3. the space bar
{mutters under breath}
4. the delete key

:lol:

[Janak Parekh]

Hmm... I still use two spaces after the period. Does that mean I'm in trouble, boss? :oops:

[Edit: I see Ed and I are the "first posts"... I think our frustration out of not being able to participate yesterday is coming out! :D]

[Edit 2: I think Ed and I are saved. phpBB automatically throws away extra whitespace. Unless that's something you specifically hacked? ;)]

--janak

[Rirath]

Double space it man... looks better, takes up more screen. Though unless you go through the trouble of & n b s p or have scripts to do it auto it often won't matter either way.

[alanjrobertson]

It's just gotta be double-spaced!! Looks much clearer! :D

Alan

PS I love the Shockwave Flash voting results bit on the front page that appears once you've voted - very cool indeed! (& keeps the suspense up to the last second!!) 8)

[Mike Wagstaff]

Single spaces all the way. There's only a limited number of spaces left in the world, so they have to be used wisely. ;)

[Janak Parekh]

PS I love the Shockwave Flash voting results bit on the front page that appears once you've voted - very cool indeed! (& keeps the suspense up to the last second!!) 8)
Yes, I was waiting with baited breath on this one. :lol:

--janak

[Wes Salmon]

Back before software did your coding for you, people knew that web browsers didn't see more than one consecutive space at a time anyway, that's why nbsp (non-breaking space tag) was created, to force blank space in text when needed.

I vote no on the double space after periods not because I'm a new fangled elitist tech dork, but simply because it is very very inefficient coding and usage of bandwidth.

Browsers STILL disregard consecutive blank spaces so to achieve a double space after period rule, you have to spend up 6 character on each space, "&" then “nbsp” then ";", that's how a space is written in HTML.

Think if ever period written on the Internet added 6 characters (one blank space and one nbsp tag) or 12 characters (two nbsp tags like Frontpage often does) to ever sentence written. That would be ridiculously inefficient and wasteful of ever growing precious bandwidth.

Save the planet, only use one space after a period online. :)

[Wes Salmon]

[Edit 2: I think Ed and I are saved. phpBB automatically throws away extra whitespace. Unless that's something you specifically hacked? ;)]

--janak

That's not phpBB doing it, it's your browser. Consecutive spaces have been disregarded since the initial HTML spec was introduced. See above. :)

[johncruise]

don't you guys apply what you learn on school? typing 101... always use double space after each period. yes, html discards this, but still, make it a habit to do so so when you type a formal document you will not forget. :D

[ShivShanks]

I definitely think a single space is enough. Why in the world does one need two?! The whole point of that space is to show seperation between sentences and for that purpose one is enough visual clue to our eyes. Why waste time, effort, bandwidth, disk space, cpu cycles and stress on your hands and keyboards by typing an extra space. :roll: Can easily add up to a few % of bandwidth and disk space for text only stuff. I don't buy the looks good argument at all. That is quite subjective and so then why not go the whole hog and add two spaces after each word and (heaven forbid) three spaces after each period. As you can see it quite simply starts reaching ridiculous proportions. Okay okay there I said it :) "Sheilds on full power for protection from flames from the two space camp" ;) Infact I am really surprised that there are so many of them! 8O

[Kati Compton]

[Edit 2: I think Ed and I are saved. phpBB automatically throws away extra whitespace. Unless that's something you specifically hacked? ;)]


That's just HTML, I think.

I like 2 spaces. Makes it easier to see where one sentence ends and another begins.

I also prefer a blank line between paragraphs to just indenting. Both is fine, but to me, the blank line is essential.

I don't think I've indented a paragraph in a decade.

[Kati Compton]

Back before software did your coding for you, people knew that web browsers didn't see more than one consecutive space at a time anyway, that's why nbsp (non-breaking space tag) was created, to force blank space in text when needed.

I vote no on the double space after periods not because I'm a new fangled elitist tech dork, but simply because it is very very inefficient coding and usage of bandwidth.


I like my double space, and I automatically type it, but I'm not going to type & nbsp just to get it. I'm too lazy for that. The thumb just does an automatic double space for me, so it's no additional effort for papers/non-HTML writing/etc.

[Wilbert]

This goes all the way back to High School! Double space, it makes the sentence easier to read. :wink:

[Rob Alexander]

At the end of the day, it's all about communication. If two spaces make a paragraph easier to read, then the trivial fact that it's not 'proper' in someone's style guide is really insignificant. On the other hand, I rarely notice whether there's one or two spaces when I read something, so it's hard to think there's much reason for a grassroots revolution on this one.

For those who get bugged by the two spaces, though, especially to the point of having heated discussions... I wonder why. If there were really some objective reason that you couldn't read text with two spaces, that would be one thing, but if you're just irritated that someone has broken some arbitrary rule, then you definitely need to chill out. 8)

One of the interesting adjustments I had to make after moving to New Zealand, was to expand my thinking on correct vs incorrect spelling, punctuation and grammar. Some of the things they do here would probably make some American nitpickers cringe. It was sure hard for me to get used to. For example, there is no period (called a full stop here) after an abbreviation if the abbreviation ends in the same letter as the entire word. So Dr gets no period (because doctor and dr end in r), but Prof. does (because professor doesn't end in f). There are endless such examples, and they vary throughout the English speaking world. Now are these different conventions right or wrong? Well neither, of course, because all of these rules are arbitrary. As long as people can communicate effectively, who really cares? :silly:

My wife, a professional book editor, may not agree with me completely, as she makes part of her living by doing English-to-English translations and so has a vested interest in people getting uptight about their local rules. Hmmmm, I guess that means I have a vested interest in it too. Well, as long as people are willing to pay to change colour to color, who am I to argue? :wink:

[rgremill]

How come those predictions sound like horoscopes??

Here are some more predictions for 2003:

1.) Some major company will start selling a $2000 Plasma TV by Christmas 2003.
2.) Entry level 15" LCD monitor will be around $225 by Christmas 2003.
3.) Pocket PCs will take even more market share away from Palm.
4.) Terminator 3 and Lord of the Rings 3 will be blockbusters.
5.) Terminator 3 will be downloadable from the web before being released.
6.) Iraq will have a Regime change.
7.) Two spaces after a period will stay in vogue.


Robert

[JonnoB]

Some good habits never die. Double-space is the way I go!

[Janak Parekh]

That's not phpBB doing it, it's your browser. Consecutive spaces have been disregarded since the initial HTML spec was introduced. See above.
That's just HTML, I think.
Ok, ok, you guys win. :D I know HTML well, and I know about its rule regarding whitespace, and I've been using nbsp's for years (but not to enforce the whitespace, I follow Kati's philosophy)... but if you really want to be pedantic, it's more accurate to say that phpBB doesn't treat character-based whitespace specially, and just passes it on to HTML, whereas it inserts &lt; br > tags for newlines. So phpBB is doing something by not doing anything. ;)

--janak

[Kati Compton]

but if you really want to be pedantic, it's more accurate to say that phpBB doesn't treat character-based whitespace specially, and just passes it on to HTML, whereas it inserts &lt; br > tags for newlines. So phpBB is doing something by not doing anything. ;)


If it makes you feel better to say it that way, go ahead. ;)

[bdegroodt]

Does this go for SMS too? :P

[Jonathon Watkins]

There's ALWAYS something to argue about on this site. :P PPCs ain't even the start of it. :D Course - that why we often come back.

(Having two full-stops :splat::splat: is better BTW).

[icatar]

I'm definitely a double spacer. But I'm curious, if someone's taken a typing course lately, have they begun transitioning people to a single space?

On my Blackberry, at the end of a sentence, all I have to do is type a double space, then it will automatically replace the double space with a period and a single space - then automatically capitalize the first letter of the next word. Nice!

[Ed Hansberry]

I vote no on the double space after periods not because I'm a new fangled elitist tech dork, but simply because it is very very inefficient coding and usage of bandwidth.

That would be ridiculously inefficient and wasteful of ever growing precious bandwidth.

Save the planet, only use one space after a period online. :)
Outlook Express with its html, improper quoting, URL breaking, stationary attaching newsgroup posting has done far far more to waste bandwidth than all the spaces in the world. :evil:

[dim_watt]

Aack! Grammar and spelling count; there's a reason for it - http://www.bartleby.com/116/401.html#1

[Paul Martin]

I definitely think a single space is enough. Why in the world does one need two?! The whole point of that space is to show seperation between sentences and for that purpose one is enough visual clue to our eyes. Why waste time, effort, bandwidth, disk space, cpu cycles and stress on your hands and keyboards by typing an extra space. ...

I guess by the same token, we "waste" space with margins at the sides of each page. &nbspWe could use less pages if we only used a fraction of the current space. &nbspDo we really *need* all of that room at the side? &nbspI say go for the double space. &nbspYep, part of it is old typing-class training. &nbspBut, I really do think the visual space helps make it easier to read. &nbspIt certainly allows my brain time to comprehend what I just read...and I can certainly use all the help I can get!!!

OTOH,ifthespacesbotheryou,feelfreetoremovethem. :wink:

[Kati Compton]

I guess by the same token, we "waste" space with margins at the sides of each page. *We could use less pages if we only used a fraction of the current space. *Do we really *need* all of that room at the side? *I say go for the double space.

Actually, I hate that the default margins in MS Word is 1.25".

1" all the way, baby!

Otherwise my 15 page papers I submit to conferences with 12 page limits would be WAY too long. ;)

[Paul Martin]

I agree, kati42. I like *some* white space, but 1 1/2" is a little too much, unless you're trying to stretch a 12 page paper to 15 :lol:

[Janak Parekh]

Actually, I hate that the default margins in MS Word is 1.25".

1" all the way, baby!
Thank you! Except when you need to cheat on the conference papers, at which point you reduce to .88" margins, with .98 spacing, and 11.7 point font. :D

--janak

[Kati Compton]

Thank you! Except when you need to cheat on the conference papers, at which point you reduce to .88" margins, with .98 spacing, and 11.7 point font. :D


No - bigger font, smaller size, or smaller font bigger size. I try multiple combinations to see what looks right but gets a smaller paper. ;)

But usually I just stick with Tahoma, really. ;) But yes, I tend to start moving into that 1" margin when necessary. Especially if that's the only way I can get a figure on the page I want it!

[ShivShanks]

I guess by the same token, we "waste" space with margins at the sides of each page. We could use less pages if we only used a fraction of the current space. Do we really *need* all of that room at the side? I say go for the double space.


Now hold on a minute! I am not debating the use of space at all or that having proper white space makes things look nice. Of course it does. Perhaps you did not read my sentences properly since they did not have two spaces :P I only said there is no need for extra space. One is enough to show visual seperation between sentences. Likewise sure you do need space at the margin of pages. What one doesn't need is huge honking margins that look equally ugly compared to no margins.


Yep, part of it is old typing-class training. But, I really do think the visual space helps make it easier to read. It certainly allows my brain time to comprehend what I just read...and I can certainly use all the help I can get!!!


Okay now how does it help making it easier to read? I have hardly seen anyone taking any particular notice of one or two spaces on computer text. So then obviously the two spaces doesn't seem to help anyone read it better. In fact if no one notices it then isn't it quite a waste to add all those extra spaces? And also as correctly pointed out in the poll, computer fonts have the correct kerning that one doesn't need the extra space after period. In fact those old typewriters could not do it because they did not have variable width fonts. Since the type face block were all one size a period "." would use up space around it since all characters had uniform spacing. This is not a problem with computer fonts. The period is close enough to the last letter that you don't need extra space. You just think you need due to habit and ignorance. So the argument of it looking beautiful doesn't hold any water at all. In fact I can argue that the equivalent of the double space look of a typewriter is a single space on computer fonts and adding double spaces in computers is like 2.5 to 3 spaces on typewriters. Now I'm sure the typewriter folks wouldn't like that. So there you are, I've turned your own argument against you. In fact more support can be found in the traditional variable font printing world of books. If you inspect them closely you'll find that they have spacing equivalent to a single space after the period. The only reason the typewriters did different was due to their fixed width fonts. That problem doesn't exist with computers.


OTOH,ifthespacesbotheryou,feelfreetoremovethem. ;)


Verry funny! I never said you don't need spaces, just * * that * * you * * dont * * need * * too * * many * * of * * them * * :P

[ShivShanks]

Okay folks to end this argument once and for all please do read this -
http://desktoppub.about.com/library/weekly/blrules-spaces.htm

That gives concrete proof of some of the things I've been saying.

Period. End of story (with one space after period). Ahem :twisted:

[Xaximus]

Woohoo! I'm not a freak! :D

[JonnoB]

Okay folks to end this argument once and for all please do read this -
http://desktoppub.about.com/library/weekly/blrules-spaces.htm

That gives concrete proof of some of the things I've been saying.

Period. End of story (with one space after period). Ahem :twisted:

Email is included in the double-space inclusion. I would argue that forum messages qualify as a sort of electronic mail.

[ShivShanks]

Email is included in the double-space inclusion. I would argue that forum messages qualify as a sort of electronic mail.


No I think you misunderstood the intent there. Normally e-mail is plain text (though now HTML is increasing). And plain text in e-mail is conventionally fixed width to make it look like a typewriter (Think Courier font). So therefore since it is fixed width they may be saying its okay for double space. However most forums are based on proportional width fonts as is this forum. And hence here it is correct to use one space. Even otherwise if you read the article carefully you will realise that in general you don't need double space with even fixed width fonts on computers. Even in such fonts like courier the period "." char is kerned such that it stays close to the last letter and so doesn't mar the appearance of the space. Take a look at the double spaced example given in the article and see that they think it doesn't look good. So there you are. But then some people will never change ;)

[Paul Martin]

Okay now how does it help making it easier to read? ...

*I* think the extra space helps make the sentence easier to read. Sort of an extra pause at the end of the sentence. Obviously YMMV.


I have hardly seen anyone taking any particular notice of one or two spaces on computer text. So then obviously the two spaces doesn't seem to help anyone read it better. In fact if no one notices it then isn't it quite a waste to add all those extra spaces?...

Well, the poll results on this thread would seem to indicate some people do notice, and object, so I'd hardly call it "case closed." I notice...aren't I someone? :P

It really comes down to personal preference, or that of your employer if you use print professionally! In a later post, you reference about.com's opinion on the matter. Try this one:
http://www.ce-l.blinn.com/celfaq/FAQ00042.html

In short, it's your space, do with it as you please. I'll take two, unless, of course, my HTML only give me one. :)

[KyleC]

I voted for only one space after a sentence. Assuming that the average poster writes three sentences, there would be two wasted spaces. Each ASCII character takes up 1 byte of memory, and there are ~60,000 posts, so that makes it... 117 Kb. I guess thats not a lot, then... :oops:

[JonnoB]

I guess the poll should not be whether we include double-spaces or not, but whether it looks better or not. I prefer the double-space look... better reading in my view.

[Paul Martin]

So there you are. But then some people will never change ;)

To quote from a 1996 article on the subject: http://www.the-efa.org/news/gramglean.html

Isn’t change inevitable? Yes indeed. But to say that all change is necessarily good is as silly as to say that all change is necessarily evil. As C.S. Lewis admirably put it, "Growth is the synthesis of change and continuity, and where there is no continuity, there is no growth." Or if there is, it is "growth" in another sense: metastasis.

So, are we growing or metasticizing? Thoughts too deep for me before bedtime! :?

[Steven Cedrone]

I voted for only one space after a sentence. Assuming that the average poster writes three sentences, there would be two wasted spaces. Each ASCII character takes up 1 byte of memory, and there are ~60,000 posts, so that makes it... 117 Kb. I guess thats not a lot, then... :oops:

Boy, for the last coupla' days you have been proving you have way too much free time on your hands!!! :wink: :lol: :wink:

Steve

[Paul P]

Off-topic, or maybe on-topic, not sure........in any case, some of these are just earth shattering :) :

3. At the same time, we'll see Microsoft's leadership further influenced by Linux.
4. If Linux is giving Microsoft fits, it is doing far worse to Sun Microsystems, which I predict will have a very bad 2003.
10. Still, security will be a bigger thing than ever, though you'll see a subtle shift from people being worried about viruses to them being furious about spam.
11. I wish it wasn't so, but by the end of 2003, I am sure we'll see at least four new laws giving corporations the right to invade our privacy, with most of those laws passed in the name of "patriotism."
12. Hollywood will come up with another new copy protection scheme for music and it will be defeated within two months. Even more significant is the fact that 2003 will see a whole new generation of peer-to-peer file sharing software.

[KyleC]

I voted for only one space after a sentence. Assuming that the average poster writes three sentences, there would be two wasted spaces. Each ASCII character takes up 1 byte of memory, and there are ~60,000 posts, so that makes it... 117 Kb. I guess thats not a lot, then... :oops:

Boy, for the last coupla' days you have been proving you have way too much free time on your hands!!! :wink: :lol: :wink:

Steve
School vacation! :wink:

[Bob Anderson]

Well, I remember the debate on this earlier this year and I still have the same opinion then that I do now. Two spaces after a period. It just is the *right* thing to do. :wink:

[ShivShanks]

Well, the poll results on this thread would seem to indicate some people do notice, and object, so I'd hardly call it "case closed."


I beg to differ. The poll was not about what people notice when reading online after a period, but rather what they think should be used after a period. In fact in a survey about anyone noticing how much space is there after period on online texts I would bet that 90% would say they don't notice.


I notice...aren't I someone?


With all due respect to you, you are someone. All I meant is most people wouldn't notice it. There are of course exceptions as in everything.


In a later post, you reference about.com's opinion on the matter. Try this one:
http://www.ce-l.blinn.com/celfaq/FAQ00042.html


This source is hardly what I would call good. It gives no context as to where it is talking about whether typewriter or computers or something else. Moreover there is no explanation of the why or what. OTOH the source I gave explains things properly as to the why and what. The one you gave seems to be just one entry in a copy editing FAQ that could well have to do with reading typewritten text and so being taken out of context here. I very strongly stand by my article and belief of a single space after the period. ;)

[Paul Martin]

Well, I remember the debate on this earlier this year...

In the which post got out of hand contest, I had selected the pt ebook thread; maybe I should have selected that one? :D

[Kati Compton]

School vacation! :wink:

&lt;sigh> It's been a while since those two words were together in a sentence for me!

[Kati Compton]

I beg to differ. The poll was not about what people notice when reading online after a period, but rather what they think should be used after a period. In fact in a survey about anyone noticing how much space is there after period on online texts I would bet that 90% would say they don't notice.


I notice. My advisor notices when I accidentally use 1 space after a period. I've never liked that HTML takes out my extra space. It actually makes me lose my place sometimes when I'm reading if it's a long paragraph.

[Paul Martin]

I beg to differ. The poll was not about what people notice when reading online after a period, but rather what they think should be used after a period. In fact in a survey about anyone noticing how much space is there after period on online texts I would bet that 90% would say they don' notice.

My point is that it was simply your opinion that most people don't notice. I can also state that most people do notice, that you're in the minority, and have just as much grounds. Just 'cause you say it's so, don't make it so.


This source is hardly what I would call good. Um, actually, I've not been very impressed with about.com either. The pop up ads always make me think it's tripod in disguise, not a high-quality site like, say, pocketpcthoughts.com :wink:

Really, we could spend all night throwing quotes back and forth, and I just really don't want to. Yes, it *may* be true most of the online text world is moving to one space; yes it *may* be true that we are deluding ourselves by insisting on two spaces, that we're not conforming to "new" norms, which are normal for about as long as someone decides it's not a good idea anymore, that something else would be better.

But, hey, give me some space, two of them! :lol:

[Janak Parekh]

&lt;sigh> It's been a while since those two words were together in a sentence for me!
Tell me about it. No such thing exists for a Ph.D. student. Our vacation is visiting this site when we have a moment in the day. :)

--janak

[ShivShanks]

I voted for only one space after a sentence. Assuming that the average poster writes three sentences, there would be two wasted spaces. Each ASCII character takes up 1 byte of memory, and there are ~60,000 posts, so that makes it... 117 Kb. I guess thats not a lot, then... :oops:

You think so? That would be a 2-3 second delay on a dialup line :) Every KB counts on the internet esp. on dialup lines :)

[Jonathon Watkins]

Our vacation is visiting this site when we have a moment in the day. :)

So - you're on a permanent vacation then? :lol: You LIVE here Janak! :D

[ShivShanks]

I notice. My advisor notices when I accidentally use 1 space after a period. I've never liked that HTML takes out my extra space. It actually makes me lose my place sometimes when I'm reading if it's a long paragraph.

Sigh ... I guess quite a few of the double space loving people do notice then :) Hey maybe it has something to do with all those typewriting teachers who banged on your heads and terrorised you folks to put an extra space after period :D Me? I learned my typing on a computer so no such baggage :)

[Paul Martin]

I voted for only one space after a sentence. Assuming that the average poster writes three sentences, there would be two wasted spaces. Each ASCII character takes up 1 byte of memory, and there are ~60,000 posts, so that makes it... 117 Kb. I guess thats not a lot, then... :oops:

You think so? That would be a 2-3 second delay on a dialup line :) Every KB counts on the internet esp. on dialup lines :)

Of course, that 2-3 seconds would be divided over the 60,000 posts, which I'm not viewing over my 28K 8O Let's see, that would be.... 0.00005 extra seconds per post. I think I can wait.

[Jonathon Watkins]

I voted for only one space after a sentence. Assuming that the average poster writes three sentences, there would be two wasted spaces. Each ASCII character takes up 1 byte of memory, and there are ~60,000 posts, so that makes it... 117 Kb. I guess thats not a lot, then... :oops:

You think so? That would be a 2-3 second delay on a dialup line :) Every KB counts on the internet esp. on dialup lines :)

Pardon? Downloading the 60,000 posts with an extra 117Kb with a 56kb modem would take a bit over a minute extra. Now just don't ask how long it would take to download the 60,000 posts in the first place! :lol:

[Janak Parekh]

So - you're on a permanent vacation then? :lol: You LIVE here Janak! :D
Oh yeah? What exactly are you doing here from 4am to 6am GMT? :P

It's just that none of us really want to do research this time of year... so I'll read 5 pages, do a couple posts, read 5 pages, etc. ;)

--janak

[Kati Compton]

...fill out 2 job applications.... check for new posts ... fill out 1 job application ... read rejection reviews of my paper so I can fix it up for another submission ... take a Vallium.... ;)

[Paul Martin]

Sigh ... I guess quite a few of the double space loving people do notice then :) Hey maybe it has something to do with all those typewriting teachers who banged on your heads and terrorised you folks to put an extra space after period :D Me? I learned my typing on a computer so no such baggage :)

Actually, it was the hum of many IBM Selectrics and the rat-tat-tat of the ball pumpling the platen that placed us in a hynotic trance. &lt;must use two spaces, must use two spaces, must use...> I did try a manual once...never made that mistake again! :roll:

[Jonathon Watkins]

So - you're on a permanent vacation then? :lol: You LIVE here Janak! :D
Oh yeah? What exactly are you doing here from 4am to 6am GMT? :P

It's just that none of us really want to do research this time of year... so I'll read 5 pages, do a couple posts, read 5 pages, etc. ;)

--janak

It's 05:10 here actually - I have been posting on and off here since midnight on and off. I am meant to be working reviewing some testing speciifactions - but it is Sooooooo boring. :? I have been catching up on some of the old PPCT Threads I had not looked at.

I'm reverting to my old Uni way of working - get the studying and research done in the week beforehand - then stay awake all night and get it done in one blast - works for me! :P

[ShivShanks]

I voted for only one space after a sentence. Assuming that the average poster writes three sentences, there would be two wasted spaces. Each ASCII character takes up 1 byte of memory, and there are ~60,000 posts, so that makes it... 117 Kb. I guess thats not a lot, then... :oops:

You think so? That would be a 2-3 second delay on a dialup line :) Every KB counts on the internet esp. on dialup lines :)

Of course, that 2-3 seconds would be divided over the 60,000 posts, which I'm not viewing over my 28K 8O Let's see, that would be.... 0.00005 extra seconds per post. I think I can wait.

Ahh you are right I forgot about the 60,000 posts :) But for the in general in text heavy data the ratio would increase. There would be a lot more sentences and hence lot more spaces. And it could very well reach a couple of % age points. For a back end server that would amount a bit of a difference though of course the owner may not very well care about a couple of %age extra. But don't you agree your hands would thank you for the lesser chance of getting RSI by typing less, however less a chance that may be :)

[Janak Parekh]

...fill out 2 job applications.... check for new posts ... fill out 1 job application ... read rejection reviews of my paper so I can fix it up for another submission ... take a Vallium.... ;)
What's worse, Kati, reading boring papers or doing job applications?

It's 05:10 here actually - I have been posting on and off here since midnight on and off. I am meant to be working reviewing some testing speciifactions - but it is Sooooooo boring. :? I have been catching up on some of the old PPCT Threads I had not looked at.
So you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Time to start the "PPCT Procrastinators' Club."

OK, now I must really, really go to sleep. :sleeping:

--janak

[Kati Compton]

This thread has used up more bandwidth than all the extra spaces in other posts, probably! :)

Well, I'm going to still use my two spaces, and I've just verified that they are being transmitted, it's the browser that doesn't display them, so I will slow all you single-space lovers down in your browsing by an annoyingly infintessimal amount, and there's nothing you can do about it! MUAHAHAHAH! There! I did it again. Oops, again! Oh - there, I've said it. Two. Spaces. !!!!

[Paul Martin]

Ahh you are right

I should quit on that note :D

But don't you agree your hands would thank you for the lesser chance of getting RSI by typing less, however less a chance that may be :)

I suppose, but I couldn't hear them voice a thanks. The hearing's gone from the Selectrics. :P

[Kati Compton]

What's worse, Kati, reading boring papers or doing job applications?


Reading boring papers. But reading misguided reviews about your own papers is worse. "You missed that one sentence where I explained everything!!! Weren't you paying attention?!?" ;)

[Paul Martin]

Well, I'm going to still use my two spaces, and I've just verified that they are being transmitted, it's the browser that doesn't display them, so I will slow all you single-space lovers down in your browsing by an annoyingly infintessimal amount, and there's nothing you can do about it! MUAHAHAHAH! There! I did it again. Oops, again! Oh - there, I've said it. Two. Spaces. !!!!

Agreed! Perhaps we need to push for a new DSAP-compliant standard for browsers; you know, Double Space After Period.

Uh oh, I just put two extra spaces after that last period in the previous paragraph. So, will the browser display one, or two, and would anyone even notice? :wink:

[Daniel]

What about those of us who use 3 or more spaces, we should be able to express our love of space in which ever way we choose. I think that the PPCT members are spacists, yes that's right, I said it.
You're all descriminating against the spacially challenged, some people are unable to type spaces at all! You should all be ashamed of yourselves! Not to mention that the poll should have included the option:
I am spacially challenged you insensitive clod

Daniel

[The Big Jay]

Where's the choice "I don't like your haircut and this poll is lame"?

Next time the "I don't like this poll" answer should be the above!

Edit: Oops, I remember the first two times we did this it was that answer!

Okay, how about "I don't haircut your poll and this lame is like"?

[bbarker]

Well, now we know which forum topic went amok in 2003.

Okay, here is the official answer: With a properly kerned variable spaced font you use only one space. This is based on decades of typesetting standards, which carry over to word processing and online usage -- anywhere variable-spaced fonts are used.

When you are working with a monospaced font such as Courier you may use two spaces after the period if you insist. This is similar to a typewriter. Yes, that's how I learned back in 1966, too. It wasn't until the 1990s that I learned I'd been doing it wrong for several years with computers.This thread may now be locked because you've read the official rule.

[mterlouw]

I think bbarker sums it up nicely. But did you have to space around your double hyphen? You just blew your entire credibility... :lol:

[bbarker]

Oh oh. :oops:

[hshortt]

Over 'ere in Europe, we still use British rules of typesetting. Therefore, my posts, letters, and all other correspondence that I write or type using a computer will have two spaces after the period (full stop). Using two spaces simply makes the sentence, or paragraph easier to read.

Regards
Howard

[Rob Alexander]

Okay folks to end this argument once and for all please do read this -
http://desktoppub.about.com/library/weekly/blrules-spaces.htm

That gives concrete proof of some of the things I've been saying.

Period. End of story (with one space after period). Ahem :twisted:


Good link, ShivShanks. I hope you don't mind if I re-emphasize the two most important things on that page just in case you really think anything there actually settles the debate.

"Right and wrong do not exist in graphic design. There is only effective and non-effective communication."
— Peter Bilak - Illegibility "

The Bottomline: Professional typesetters, designers, and desktop publishers should use one space only. Save the double spaces for typewriting, email, term papers, or personal correspondence. For everyone else, do whatever makes you feel good.

(I bet very few people here are professional typesetters.)

[Rob Alexander]

What's worse, Kati, reading boring papers or doing job applications?


Reading boring papers. But reading misguided reviews about your own papers is worse. "You missed that one sentence where I explained everything!!! Weren't you paying attention?!?" ;)

Hi Kati,

Most young academics go through the frustration you're experiencing now. After enough rejections, you eventually discover that 1) it's basically a game and you must play by the rules, 2) no they aren't paying attention, and 3) it's your job to get the point across anyway. Here's a great web site for anyone learning the ropes of academic publishing. Even if you publish in a different field than the author of the site, the principles are pretty much the same. Stick with it; you'll get there! :scatter:

http://www.ag.iastate.edu/journals/rie/how.htm

[DrtyBlvd]

Does this go for SMS too? :P

Personally, Spaces I can deal with - it's the prospect of having to tolerate the shortening of words to their phoenetics (sp?) :wink: that bothers me!

Roll on further development of T3 input - I do hope that people msging frm mble ppc phns dont cont the habit tht has strtd wiv mbles. :lol:

[Bob Anderson]

Well, I remember the debate on this earlier this year...

In the which post got out of hand contest, I had selected the pt ebook thread; maybe I should have selected that one? :D

I know... I didn't select that as my entry for that contest, but given the turnout on this poll I'm thinking I probably should have :wink:

[Kevin Remhof]

Don't forget. It's three spaces between your state and the zip code in Typing 101 too.

[rgremill]

I was hoping to hear everyone's predictions for 2003.

I had no idea how controversial the two spaces were...

[SofaTater]

Adding two spaces after the end of a sentence is a leftover from the old typewriter fixed-typeface days. Any style guide will tell you that if you're working with proportional fonts, use only one space.

I've done a fair amount of documentation, technical writing, and desktop publishing -- using one space comes naturally to me now (although it took awhile to break myself of the two-space habit).

It doesn't bother me if people use two spaces, but if you're going to write professionally or if you write documents that see wide distribution, using one space looks more professional. (Go through your book and magazine collection and count how many publications use two spaces at the end of a sentence -- I'm betting you won't find any published recently that do.)

[Jason Lee]

I do both. When typing papers for class most instructors want 2 spaces. And out of habbit i usually just hit the space bar twice. However since i started using SMS i have seen the need to save those spaces caues spaces are characters too!
So i dunno. In the long run it would be better/quicker in all respects in the digital world to eliminate the extra space but it will take some getting used to. Just like Ed said, period, space, space, d'oh!, backspace.... :?

We had this very discussion in one of my anthropology classes. The results of that discussion were, as you would expect, inconclusive.

I also thing that i shouldn't have to capitolize i anymore when i am refering to myself unless it is at the beginning of a sentance...
That's just what i think. :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

Well, I'm going to still use my two spaces, and I've just verified that they are being transmitted, it's the browser that doesn't display them, so I will slow all you single-space lovers down in your browsing by an annoyingly infintessimal amount, and there's nothing you can do about it! MUAHAHAHAH! There! I did it again. Oops, again! Oh - there, I've said it. Two. Spaces. !!!!
Uhh, I think someone else was needing sleep there... ;)

--janak

[Ed Hansberry]

Don't forget. It's three spaces between your state and the zip code in Typing 101 too.
You sure? I thought that was 2 as well.

[Kati Compton]

Most young academics go through the frustration you're experiencing now. After enough rejections, you eventually discover that 1) it's basically a game and you must play by the rules, 2) no they aren't paying attention, and 3) it's your job to get the point across anyway. Here's a great web site for anyone learning the ropes of academic publishing. Even if you publish in a different field than the author of the site, the principles are pretty much the same. Stick with it; you'll get there!

Thanks for the link. :) I think part of it is also that I submit papers that are too long. My advisor and I have a difference of opinion on that one, each with valid points. I say that it should be the correct length because the reviewers always complain that it's 4 pages too long, I would complain too if I were reviewing it, and the length makes it even less likely that the reviewers have the time/desire to pay attention. He says that basically we should try to answer every potential question that they might have so that they'll let it through on the condition we shorten it, and then once it's accepted we can edit it down however we want. This point is also valid, as reviewers (me too when I do it) to ask for more information no matter how much is in there... It's a balance. I'll be working on it more my way after I graduate. Perhaps I'll force the issue sooner, though. We'll see.

[Daniel]

Don't forget. It's three spaces between your state and the zip code in Typing 101 too.
You sure? I thought that was 2 as well.

I thought it was 2 as well.

Daniel

[gwizard]

I was taught that it didn't really matter whether you used one or two, but I just use one because I'm lazy and I don't want to go through the extra effort of tapping the space key another time :)

[Kati Compton]

My husband is a freelance journalist, and he said that the magazines he wrote for made him switch from 2 to 1 space. It usually looks okay in *magazines*, I'd have to say. But when I read papers that people make using MS-Word/LaTeX, etc. I really feel more comfortable with 2. Same in email (I use pine so it's a fixed-width font), and in forums.

So my husband and I disagree on this one, but I thought I should post his vote even though it is wrong (;)) as he is more of an "authority" on it than I am.

[JMountford]

There should always be double spaces after a sentence as well as an indentation at the beginning of every paragraph. Why the heck did I go to school if nothing I learned applies anymore?

[daS]

don't you guys apply what you learn on school? typing 101... always use double space after each period. yes, html discards this, but still, make it a habit to do so so when you type a formal document you will not forget. :D

Actually, after Typing 101 I advanced to Graphic Arts 101 - where I learned that in proportional spaced printing you always use a single space after a period. (I also just confirmed this from the examples given in The Chicago Manual of Style - the definitive writer's reference guide.)

... always use double space after each period. yes, html discards this... :wink: In both classes I also learned to always capitalize the first word of a sentence. :grinning devil: