Which PDA Is "Simple" Again? [Archive]

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Ed Hansberry

12-28-2002, 08:20 AM

Foo Fighter sent me a link a few days ago to an article entitled <a href="http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,755329,00.asp">Dell Misfires On PDA Strategy</a>. I started skimming it and right at the end of the third paragraph, a sentence jumped out at me and screamed "Consumers will be better served by Palm OS-based devices, which are easier to operate and less expensive." Easier to operate? :?: I keep hearing people say that and the media repeat it as if they have the same handbook on writing tech reviews. What does "easier to operate" mean? Is a Palm really easier to operate than a Pocket PC, or is this just a myth perpetuated by the media? If nothing else, Palm's marketing machine has ingrained this into the minds of millions. Newly hired sales people in stores that may still not know what "PDA" stands for will say that the Palm is simple because that is what they were told to say. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/article-palmsimple/pda.gif" /> So to find out, I whipped out my M100 series Palm to try doing things similar to what I do daily on my iPAQ 3900. No, I don't mean terminal server connections, listening to music or using a VPN connection to log into my LAN and grab an Excel file I forgot to sync over before I left for the airport. I do those things pretty frequently (especially the forgetting part :) ), but I mean to test basic PIM functions. Entering contacts, tasks, viewing appointments, multitasking, etc. Yes - Palm users do multi task. They get interrupted when viewing their calendar, needing a phone number or having to set up a task. So, how does the Palm OS handle multitasking for you? Read on to find out what I discovered. This article can be downloaded in <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/files/ppcthoughts-simplepda.lit">Microsoft Reader eBook format.</a><!> Getting Data Into The Device First, let's talk about simple data input. Palm OS devices rely primarily on the Graffiti input system, a unistroke system of inputting letters and numbers with the exception of the letter "X", which requires two strokes. You enter the North-West to South-East stroke first - exactly the opposite of how I was taught in school. I asked a few people to write the letter X for me and they always started with the North-East to South-West stroke. The "K" is a bit funny too, looking like the <a href="http://www.aveyinc.com/fish.htm">ICTHUS fish symbol</a>. Other letters like A, F and T are just different enough that you have to get used to writing them in the new Graffiti way, and everything must be in upper case. Writing a lower case "e" on the screen will get you either a "z" or a "{" symbol. :? A lower case "b" gets you an "s" or "h". You quickly learn the backspace stroke. Entering a period requires two taps as if entering two periods. Not at all intuitive. How does that compare to the input on a Pocket PC? In the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5491">Dude, You're Getting a So-So Handheld?</a> thread, columnist Rob Pegoraro calls Character Recognizer "maddening". "Its letter recognizer accepts regular characters, unlike Palm's Graffiti, but it requires you to write them in three areas -- capital, lowercase, and most numbers and punctuation." And your point is? Graffiti requires you to write in two spaces, one for numbers and the other for letters. To shift a letter you must use an up-stroke before writing the letter, turning a unistroke letter into a duostroke letter. You can put it in CAPS LOCK mode with two up-strokes and then a down-stroke to take it out of CAPS LOCK mode. No, wait, you need an up-stroke to put it in lower case mode again. Down-stroke in CAPS LOCK mode gives you an "I" so you get to use your backstroke again. In contrast, Character Recognizer allows you to simply keep writing in the left-most section and to keep going with upper case letters and move to the middle when you want lower case letters. Is one better than the other? No, not really. They are just different. I can see advantages for both. Of course, you can use Graffiti on the Pocket PC too, as one astute reader pointed out in <a href="http://?">this exchange during a chat session with Mr. Pegoraro.</a> Franklin, Tenn.: You mentioned in the Dell Axim review that you didn't like Character Recognizer or word completion. Why not just turn off word completion and use Block Recognizer, the Pocket PC emulator of Graffiti? That basically makes your input method identical to a Palm. Rob Pegoraro: Yeah, but then I could just buy a Palm and not have to put up with all the other Pocket PC nonsense. I thought it better to focus on the things that differentiate Pocket PC from Palm. So rather than answer the question, he just fell back on the "simplicity and elegance" mantra of the Palm and the "complexity and nonsense" of the Pocket PC. :roll: Having said all of that, I am not a fan of Character Recognizer either, but not for the reasons you may think. I cut my teeth on data input with a program called Jot. It came on Palm-sized PCs in 1998 and was far more powerful than Character Recognizer, allowing you to enter 100% of every conceivable character directly on the input pad. Character Recognizer requires you to tap on the symbol keyboard to get symbols like #, @ and %. Even with Jot though, you are quite limited in terms of speed. <a href="http://www.textware.com">I prefer FITALY</a>, which is an input method designed stylus entry, is available for both Pocket PC and PalmOS devices and its users swear by it. Handspring has abandoned character recognition altogether putting thumb boards on their devices. When I am tired of pecking on FITALY, I will switch to Transcriber, a full screen handwriting recognition method available on the Pocket PC allowing you to write words and sentences just like you would on paper. This is not available on PalmOS devices, though I suspect with the higher horsepower chips in the newer OS 5 devices, someone is working on a complete handwriting recognition program for them. The bottom line, however, is that Graffiti is simple for the computer to understand. It is not simple for the average user to pick up and start learning. Why should you have to learn a new alphabet that is either all uppercase letters or totally new symbols? Data Entry Time Savers Word Completion Since I've touched on Word Completion, let's go over that. The easiest way for 99% of the computer literate public to enter data into computing devices is with a full-size keyboard. You have 10 fingers deftly moving over the entire alphabet. The average person easily gets 40wpm, which is an average of 3.3 letters per second. Due to their size though, PDAs don't have full-size keyboards that you can use anywhere. Some are coming out with thumb keyboards, but those are the exception right now. The Pocket PC has a feature called "Word Completion" that takes the letters you are typing and compares them to thousands of words in a dictionary. I have mine set to show 3 words after 2 characters. Say you want to write the word "meeting" when composing an email. On the Pocket PC, write "mee" and you are offered "meets", "meeting" and "meetings". Tap the word "meeting" and the PPC enters "ting" followed by a space, quickly readying you for your next word. All of this is easily and intuitively customizable in the keyboard options, available in Options above the list of keyboards available when you switch from QWERTY to Character Recognizer and in the Input icon in system settings. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/article-palmsimple/wordcompletion.gif" /> Graffiti, in contrast, requires you to input all 7 characters and the space manually. Note that the Graffiti emulator on the Pocket PC still takes advantage of Word Completion. Moving Around The Screen The Palm requires you to tap on fields to move around. For example, if you are entering data into a contact, you would enter the Last Name, tap on First Name, enter data, tap on Phone Number, enter more data, etc. Simple enough, but you have that 2 inch reach from the Graffiti area to the fields at the top of the screen. Lots of stylus travel. The Pocket PC does this as well but also has many desktop shortcuts available. The TAB feature is one of them. If you are using an external keyboard/thumb keyboard, you can use the tab key to move down the fields just as you would on your desktop. The same applies to the Soft Input Panels (SIP) you have. Just type the name, tab (or tab stroke in the case of Character Recognizer/Transcriber) and keep going. The TAB key on my FITALY SIP is used quite frequently. I tested this on both an NX70 and Treo with the built in thumb boards. To enter contacts with the keyboard on the NX70, you must tap the screen to move between fields. The TAB key is non-functional for moving around fields on the Palm. This would be like entering data on a Web page or any other form on your desktop and having to use the mouse to switch fields. Not simple or easy. The Treo doesn't have a tab key but does allow you to use the Up/Down arrows to move around. You must tap OK though to save the contact. Pressing ENTER doesn't work and you can't activate the OK button with the arrow keys. Of course, if you like doing it that way, the Pocket PC will accommodate you. It doesn't object to unnecessary screen tapping. Global Features Categories When you have 15-20 contacts and a handful of tasks and appointments, categories are not of much use. When you have hundreds or even thousands of contacts, months of appointments and more tasks than any single human should have to worry about, categories can keep you organized. Palm does an admirable job of this. Categories are ingrained into virtually everything you do on the Palm. Tasks, notes, addresses, etc. - they all allow you to either leave the item "unfiled" or assigned to a set of categories. However, categories are not shared across applications. So, if you are in IT and enter a "Server" category for tasks to help remind you to do monthly maintenance on the servers, and you want to add a contact for a consultant that you want filed under the "Server" category, you must add the Server category separately to the Address database. Need to schedule a meeting to discuss server upgrades? Add the "Server" category to the Calendar database. Already have 15 categories in your Calendar database? Well, now you're out of luck. The PalmOS only allows 15 categories per database. To add that 16th category, you must delete one of the other categories. The Pocket PC has one category database that is shared by all applications that use categories. This primarily includes Tasks, Calendar and Contacts. For some strange reason, Notes does not support categories on the Pocket PC even though it does on the desktop. Most applications that have documents don't support categories either. Instead, the Pocket PC relies on the file system to keep things separate. This is a mirror of how your desktop works. I won't go into details on how this works because working with documents on your Palm is not at all simple. It requires you install the document to your device and run it through a desktop converter. Putting it on a storage card is even more complex and often not at all supported by the application on the device. Finally, the Palm limits you to one category per item. The Pocket PC allows any combination of categories for any item. So, Joe Smith can be "Vendor" and "Customer" at the same time, as is often the case in businesses today. Furthermore, he is my cousin so he is "Family" and "Christmas Card" too. This is incredibly useful when doing mailings. In Outlook you simply filter the contacts by category then select Tools -Mail Merge. There are dozens of other reasons you would want more than one category per item. Is that complex? Is it simple to only allow one? Security PalmOS supports a rich set of security features for the device. Tasks, Addresses, Appointments and Memos can be marked "Private" in the details section of each record. You can then go into the Security icon and either mask or hide those items with a password. However, once you show the record, you must remember to hide/mask it again in Security. The device won't automatically set security for you again after X minutes have passed or the device is powered off. You can of course lock the device from the Security icon but again, you must manually set this. The Pocket PC has security as well but it is device wide with a few exceptions. Excel, for example, allows you to individually password protect files. Items on the Pocket PC marked "private" are still available to someone that picks up your PDA. "Private" in this context means that someone at your office can see this item on your calendar when using enterprise apps like Exchange. Quite meaningless on a PDA. To lock the device down, simply open the Password icon and select either a 4 digit ATM style password or a complex password using a keyboard. Then tell it how long you want the device to be idle before triggering the password - 1 minute, 5 minutes, 1 hour, 18 hours - and quite a few other options in between. Bottom line is neither is perfect, but both are quite simple to set up and implement, as long as you remember to enable it each time you want it used on the Palm. Contacts Basic Information Both the Palm and Pocket PC have capable contact databases. The Palm contact form has two fields for the name, a field for their title, company, 6 phone number fields (work, fax, home, mobile, etc.) an email field, an address field and 4 custom fields. Those custom fields can be anything you like. There is also a Notes field that allows you to write notes about that contact. The Pocket PC has one name field, but it is an intelligent field. Type James R. Smith and the Pocket PC breaks that out into First: James, Middle: R. and Last: Smith. You never see this happen, but when you search on names or change sorting options, you can see this in operation. It also supports a name prefix and suffix. So when you enter Dr. Mark Johnson III your Pocket PC will have: <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/article-palmsimple/intelligentname.gif" /> You do nothing to get this. It happens automatically and you can edit the names very easily. You can hit the little drop down arrow in the name field to see this and tweak it if desired. This all transfers over to Outlook on your desktop so when you want to create a mailing list you can elect to include or exclude titles and middle names. Ok, so 1 intelligent name field that is really 5 fields, their job title, department, company name, office location (for branch offices), 10 phone numbers, assistants name, assistant's phone number, 3 email addresses, Web address, 3 physical addresses (Home, Work, Other), spouse's name, children's name(s), birthday and anniversary. The latter two integrate with your Calendar. It also has a notes field to enter any other information. Curiously, there are no custom fields available to the Pocket PC even though there are custom fields in Outlook on your desktop. Those won't synchronize over. Outlook has a few additional fields that don't sync over either. The most frustrating thing for me is the "Company Phone Number". I like to have the front desk phone number to a person in case their direct line isn't answered and I need to talk to someone without going through a voice mail maze. I've learned to stick that in Work2 for people but I shouldn't have to adapt like that. :( There is also no place for their Instant Messenger ID, even though all Pocket PCs have an Instant Messenging service included now. The Palm has a very handy feature when entering contacts. Enter the name then move down to the Company field. The Palm will start looking at the letters you enter and compare them to other entries in your database. So entering "An" may give you "Anderson Partners" if you already have other contacts in your database that work at that company. To get around this with my Pocket PC, I often just select a co-worker, duplicate the contact then edit it with the new person's name. An acceptable workaround, but again I shouldn't have to adapt like that. So, does that mean the Palm is simple and the Pocket PC is complex when it comes to addresses? Try entering a home and work address in a Palm OS device for someone. Enter his Web address and assistant's phone number. Yes, you can use the custom fields for this but they aren't consistent. Custom Field 1 in Joe Smith's contact may be his URL and in Sarah Black's contact may be her assistant's name. And four fields simply are not enough to enter a home address if you have the other address fields used for work. Changing Views and Other Miscellaneous Items Both the Pocket PC and Palm allow you to change how you view your contact list. On the Palm you simply tap on the menu area, Options|Preferences and on the "List By" box, pick "Company Name/Last Name" then tap OK. On the Pocket PC you tap on View|By Company. Which one of those looks simpler? I know, advanced Palm users are saying "Just use the shortcut!" Ok, the Upslash-R stroke will open the Preferences dialog box. You save one tap by doing that rather than Menu|Options|Preferences. Both devices also allow you to beam contacts to your peers. With the Palm you simply tap the contact to open it up then from the menu select Beam Address. Then press OK to close the contact. Or you could learn the North-East traveling upstroke coupled with a "B" to beam it. With the Pocket PC, tap-and-hold on the contact and select Beam Contact. The Palm allows you to beam an entire category if you desire, but no other combinations. The Pocket PC allows you to filter to a single category, highlight all of the contacts and then tap-and-hold to beam the group. You can also sort the Pocket PC contacts by company and select that group and beam it. This is especially handy when a new person comes into your department. If you have a few key companies you do business with - auditors in my case - I just beam them all of the contacts belonging to the audit firm. Let's Do Lunch - Have Your People Call My People Simple Daily Views At least as equal in importance as Contacts, the Appointment database is one of the key reasons a PDA exists and for basic appointment scheduling, the Palm OS is hands down far easier to use. Simply launch Date Book, the Palm appointment application, and you are presented with a bunch of rows labeled 8:00am - 6:00pm. Tap on one of the lines and type your appointment. "Lunch with Jeff" on the 12:00 line. Too simple, and nothing else is necessary. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/article-palmsimple/palmdatebook.gif" /> On the Pocket PC, the same exercise is launch Calendar, tap one of the rows of hours, and press the New button. The start/end times will be pre-filled in for you based on the hour you selected. Simply type in the subject and press OK. For a basic one hour appointment, this is way too many steps. Now, let's enter a more complex appointment. Three hours, with an alarm. On the Palm, enter the appointment name on the first hour. Now, select Details then tap on the Time box. You can now modify the start and end times, change it to All Day, set the alarms, etc. So for that three hour appointment, it would be Details|Time|End Time|Pick the End Time, check the Alarm box and press OK. On the Pocket PC, you tap and drag over a three hour range, press New and enter the subject. The three hour time will be pre-filled in for you. Hmmm... not so complex anymore, but instead, consistent. Not two different methods. How about entering conflicting appointments? Let's say one from 1:00-4:00 and another from 3:00-5:00. Hey, this is life and that happens. You have to decide which one to cut short. On the Palm, you enter the first appointment as described above. Now the 2:00 and 3:00 lines are gone. You are busy, so the Palm won't show them to you. So you have to enter the 2nd appointment by entering it on a bogus line or just press the New button to bring up a blank form. Here you can manually set the start and end times. When you press OK, the 3:00 line will have reappeared. How do you do this on the Pocket PC? Same way you enter two non-conflicting appointments. Just tap-drag and press New. No lines are hidden, so it is simply a matter of dragging across the 3:00-5:00 time slot, pressing New and you are done. Other Views Both the Palm and Pocket PC will show you Weekly, Monthly and Agenda views. On the Palm just tap on the Weekly, Monthly or Agenda icons to switch. If I go to the Weekly view for the appointments set above, I can see a time bar for the 1:00-4:00 app right next to the 3:00-5:00 appointment. If I tap the bars I can see the details in a little window at the top. I can't do anything with it though. Tapping the window makes it go away rather than taking me to the details for editing. To edit it, I must switch back to the daily view to make changes. Tapping on the appointment in the Agenda view will switch you back to the daily view where you can now press Details. The Pocket PC? Pretty much the same except that tapping either on the appointment or the little window at the top will actually open the appointment where you can edit it. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/article-palmsimple/conflict.gif" /> The Palm's Agenda view also shows tasks due that day or tasks that have no due date. The Pocket PC's Agenda view is nothing more than a list of appointments for that day. Both Palm OS and Pocket PC have Month views which are both equally as useless. The Palm shows a dot in the top half of the day to signify morning appointments and a dot in the lower half for evening appointments. The Pocket PC shows you a North-West pointing triangle for morning appointments, a South-East triangle for evening and a full square for a really busy day. :roll: It is for this reason that I think the most popular third party apps for both Palm OS and Pocket PC devices are programs that completely replace the calendars. Palm users tend to choose either <a href="http://www.iambic.com/english/palmos/agendus/">Agendus</a> or <a href="http://www.pimlicosoftware.com/">Datebk</a> while Pocket PC users gravitate towards <a href="http://www.pocketinformant.com">Pocket Informant</a> or <a href="http://www.developerone.com">Agenda Fusion</a>. That said, I really think the extraordinary simplicity in entering a basic appointment on the Palm versus the Pocket PC is the one area that makes people go "simple" versus "complex". But as I have shown, when you get into things more complicated than a one hour appointment, the Pocket PC is at least as easy to use as the Palm and in many instances - easier and more consistent. So Much To Do, So Little Time Entering a task on the Palm is almost as simple as entering an appointment in Date Book. You launch To Do List, press New and enter the subject. That's it. You now have a task entered with no start date, no due date, no category, alarm, or anything else. A basic task. Short and sweet. This time, on the Pocket PC, it is a virtually identical process. Fire up Tasks, press New, enter the subject and press OK. On the Palm, to get more complex, you press the Details button. Here you can enter a priority of 1-5, a category, a due date and mark it private if desired. There is also room for a long note. A Start Date is not available. This means all task that are not complete are always in your Agenda view and To Do List view. The Pocket PC allows you to do all that a Palm does, plus enter a start date, set an alarm and make the task recurring. Allowing a Start Date is critical in keeping your task list manageable. For example, my car tags expire on July 31 of every year. I have a task that recurs annually that starts July 1 and is due July 15 to go get my emission papers for my car. That allows two more weeks to get the paperwork to the county to get my new stickers. I don't want that on my task list today. That is 7 months away. Starting July 1, this task shows up on my task list, and when I mark it complete, a new July 1-July 15 task for 2004 is created and essentially hidden from me for another year. I keep my Tasks screen showing me "Active" tasks, which are tasks that are not finished, have a due date or start date on or before today. With the Palm it is always there, and once complete, you must create a new task manually. Is that simple? I guess having all of your tasks showing all of the time is simple in its own way. I call it cluttered and too much information. My computer is supposed to filter that stuff out for me. Again, the power PIMs mentioned above take care of this for the Palm and enhance it for Pocket PC users, but that is for power users, not the average consumer. So, which model of managing tasks looks simple now? One minor issue - the Palm has 5 priority levels and the Pocket PC has 3. This is fairly minor and was actually explained to me by someone at Microsoft. "High means Bill wants it done, Normal means my performance review will be affected by its completion, and Low means it is interesting and I'll keep it in mind, but I make no promises." :lol: Pocket Informant takes it from 3 to 2,600 priorities using a combination of A-Z and 0-99 to set priorities. :crazyeyes: I tend to keep mine in A-D and 1-10. Palm super PIMs have similar features. The alarm you can set for tasks on the Pocket PC defaults to 8:00am and there is no way to change that with the Tasks application. Again, apps like Pocket Informant get around this limitation, allowing you to set alarms for any time you desire. Hang On, Let Me Grab A Pen Many users also take notes on their PDA. Sometimes very quick memos and other times meeting notes. Palm devices offer two choices - Note Pad or Memo Pad. First, Memo Pad. This has been with Palm from the very beginning. It is a very simple screen where you just enter data. The Memos are limited to 4K, so if you want more than that, you will need to install a third party application. 4K may sound like a lot, but consider that as of right now this post has 18K characters. So if I had used Memo Pad to jot these thoughts down if I were on a plane or train, they would be split among 6 memos and counting. Note Pad is relatively new to Palm OS devices and allows you to scratch out drawings and doodles. No text though. That is for Memo Pad. So you can't draw a small map of driving directions with instructions and beam them to someone. You would have to beam him two documents - the Note Pad drawing and the Memo Pad directions. Really simple for you and the user who has to keep these things together. The Pocket PC has an application called Notes. It allows you to commingle drawings and text on the same document. I don't know what the Notes maximum capacity is - I just pasted 54K of text into it and it all fit with no problems. You can also zoom in and out on the note from 75% to 300% to get a better view of larger drawings/maps. Finally, the Notes app allows you to simply record your voice into the note. Just press the record button and speak into it. I cannot tell you how many times I am driving and have an idea that I want to act on. I just grab my Pocket PC and quickly record it. It syncs over to the Notes section in Outlook so I can listen to it there if desired or listen to it on my Pocket PC. Folks, that is simple. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/article-palmsimple/notes.gif" /> You Need What? Ok, Hang On Simple Multitasking How many times have you been using your PDA and someone walks in and asks for something, like an address, a phone number or are you free for a meeting next Tuesday at 2:00? All of the time. So, you are multitasking. How does the Palm handle this? Well, if you are just viewing something, it is seamless. Switch from your Date Book to Contacts, open the contact and give them the information. Press the Date Book button and you are right back where you started from. But what if you are editing something? You are entering information into a contact from a business card you just received and someone wants to know if you are free tomorrow. You press the Date Book icon, give them their answer then switch back to the Address Book. Where is your data? Well, it is all saved, but your PDA closed the record. You have to open it back up and navigate to where you were. I was at Starbucks a few days ago drinking some coffee, listening to music and catching up on old emails. My wife was at home and needed an email address so she just pinged me using Messenger. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/article-palmsimple/multitasking.gif" /> I pressed CHAT to open up the Messenger chat window, pressed the Contacts button to see my contacts, typed "Sm" in the window to narrow down the contacts, opened up Mark's contact, pressed Edit, highlighted the email, tap-and-hold to copy it, used <a href="http://www.scottandmichelle.net/scott/cestuff.html">Pocket Nav</a> to switch back to Chat, tap-and-hold to paste. Obviously I used a bogus name and info for this example, the example is real, though. How would you do that on a connected Palm OS organizer? Well, you wouldn't. If your email app is open, your chat app isn't. If you are in a chat waiting for someone to ping you, you can't do emails. Even if you were in chat, to get the info out of your address book, you would have to close the chat connection to do switch. Open the contact details, copy the number, open Chat, find your wife, connect, then paste the info. She is upset at you for disconnecting her chat window on her end, so you might as well order another cup of coffee, because that is the only warmth you are getting tonight buddy. Now, I admit I used Pocket Nav, a freeware task switcher. The Pocket PC does a fantastic job of multitasking, but for some reason, includes no way for you to either close an application when done or easily switch to another app. Complex? Unnecessarily so. Easy to fix on the Pocket PC? Yes. Easy to fix on the Palm? I'll let you know when OS 6 ships. App Integration Let's say you are reading your emails and one of them is to tell you of a meeting or other evening function you need to attend. On the Palm, you would simply press the Date Book button, press New to create a new appointment, set the date and times then press OK. Go back to the main program menu, open the email app and reply to the email letting the sender know you have added it to your calendar. On the Pocket PC, there is no need to switch to the Calendar app. Just press the up arrow next to New. Select Appointment, set the dates and times, press Ok. You are now back in your email right where you left off. Hit Reply, type your response and send the message. You don't have to go through the extra steps switching apps and going to the program menu. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/article-palmsimple/appintegration.gif" /> The difference is very small. However, which one is easier? Is it easier to create the appointment from within the email or is it easier to switch applications? I think it would be very difficult to argue that the Palm method is simpler or that the Pocket PC method is complex. Wrapping It All Up There is no doubt that for some things it is easier to get going on the Palm, namely basic appointments - once you can get used to Graffiti that is. But is the Palm an easier device to use overall? For some things, yes. For other things, no. On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is easy (like turning your device on) and 10 is hard (like messing with Connection Manager) many Palm features are in the 1-3 range and max out there. The Pocket PC has some in the 1 range, but more in the 2-4 range. Of course configuring a VPN connection to allow your Terminal Services connection to work via GPRS is closer to a 9, but the power that has is simply not replicable on a Palm. The average user of a Pocket PC never needs know that this particular functionality or complexity exists. And now with $199-$299 devices like the Dell Axim X5, HP iPAQ 1910 and ViewSonic V35, there is no longer the "but why should someone pay for it if they aren't going to use it" argument. Which is what brought this whole thing up. "Consumers will be better served by Palm OS-based devices, which are easier to operate and less expensive." Hogwash! Palm serves a market and Pocket PC serves a market. The bottom line is today, in December of 2002, there is no Palm device that even comes close to touching the functionality and beautiful rich color screens of the Pocket PCs regardless of what prices they are listed at. And the Pocket PC is not needlessly complex. It is different. Easier to use in some areas, harder in other areas and equal in other areas. When you get into more sophisticated operations like emailing documents, creating spreadsheets, playing music, storing data on your storage card, synchronizing files, connecting to your LAN, etc., it is clear which device is easier to use. The Pocket PC has all of that built in. No hacks needed, no additional software necessary. Even small things like having a light sensor integrated into the hardware so you don't have to manually turn the back light on means it is one less thing you have to do. Isn't that simple?

ricksfiona

12-28-2002, 09:15 AM

I used a Palm IIIx for about two years before going to the IPAQ camp. There's a learning curve for each device, IPAQ having a slightly longer learning curve, but not much. But, I am a techie...

I feel comfortable though, if you're going to use a lot of the basics with the Pocket PC (Calendar, Contacts, etc), then the either platform will work fine. But, the PPC allows you to grow as your familiarity and comfort level does. Even a low-power user can figure out how to transfer those Word/Excel docs over to the PPC without any conversion to view them.

When people find out that the PPC comes with a simple version of Excel and Word, that sells them a lot. It did for me. When the non-techie finds out that you can play MP3 files on it, that's all she wrote.

Now that you can get that beautiful HP1910 or Dell Axim for $200, about $100 less than the cheapest/color, most functionally comparable Sony Clie, it's a no-brainer. HP/Compaq did a great job of styling with the 1910. Sony has beautiful equipment. I would put the 1910 on that same level. I've said it once and I'll say it again, the end of Palm is near....

Thanks for the memories Palm.

Cybercop

12-28-2002, 09:27 AM

I think the dude at dell was refering to people who are still using the palm because they are afraid to unlock there brain and be more productive and get more done with a Pocket PC. :D

I run the PPC user group in Phoenxi AZ and I always get palm people coming up to me asking me what kind of Palm Pilot I have and I just want to slap them around. After a 5 to 10 minute demo that look at there palm like and give that blank expression :confused totally: and realize they have been carrying a phone book/calculator around for the last few years thinking they where KEWL! Boy do they feel stupid but then they immediatly turn around and say what would be the BEST Pocket PC for me IF I where going to change! 8O

I Snagged another one!!

I just think that this spokesman for Dell was using a palm before the company decided to go forward with the PPC format because after all, all there desktop PC's they sell came pre-loaded with palm sync software.

I think if you ask this guy now he'll probably reply "DUDE I'M GETTING A DELL PPC!!!"

tj21

12-28-2002, 10:10 AM

The bottom line is today, in December of 2002, there is no Palm device that even comes close to touching the functionality and beautiful rich color screens of the Pocket PCs regardless of what prices they are listed at.

Actually it's the quality of the screens that most attracts me back to the palm world. 240x320 on my e740 is tough to live with after seeing 320x480 on the gorgeous screen of the Clie NX70. If someone will put that screen in a Pocket PC I'll buy one today! Even Sony's low-end models have reached 320x320.

T

Pony99CA

12-28-2002, 10:19 AM

This was a great article. Of course, I have some comments on a few points.

Word Completion

I have mine set to show 3 words after 2 characters. Say you want to write the word "meeting" when composing an email. On the Pocket PC, write "mee" and you are offered "meets", "meeting" and "meetings".

Well, this tip just made my life easier. I thought Suggest X word(s) meant that it would suggest phrases with that many words in them (like "run away" if you typed "run"), so I always kept mine set to one.

That got me upset when I'd type "San" and get "San Diego" suggested instead of something with "sand", for example.

I had always wished that Word Completion would suggest multiple alternatives, like the WordLogic keyboard, and now I find out it does. Wow. :-)

Contacts
Basic Information
The most frustrating thing for me is the "Company Phone Number". I like to have the front desk phone number to a person in case their direct line isn't answered and I need to talk to someone without going through a voice mail maze. I've learned to stick that in Work2 for people but I shouldn't have to adapt like that. :(

I agree that a Company Phone Number would be nice. Instead of using Work2, though, another way to do it is to just add a contact for the company itself. Just put the company's name in the Company field and the phone number in the Work Tel field.

If you think this is more work for calling the main desk if the direct line doesn't work, that's true. But if you sort by company name, it will be easy to see both numbers on one screen, and you actually save space if you have more than one person at the same company. Also, if that person ever leaves the company, but you still want a record for that company, you won't have to remember to add one when you change the person's work information.

The Palm has a very handy feature when entering contacts. Enter the name then move down to the Company field. The Palm will start looking at the letters you enter and compare them to other entries in your database. So entering "An" may give you "Anderson Partners" if you already have other contacts in your database that work at that company. To get around this with my Pocket PC, I often just select a co-worker, duplicate the contact then edit it with the new person's name. An acceptable workaround, but again I shouldn't have to adapt like that.

You're right, you shouldn't. The sad thing is, Windows CE 2.0 on the Handheld PC had this feature. It was great, and even brought over the phone number and fax number for the company, if I recall correctly.

Since data entry is more difficult on a Pocket PC than a Handheld PC, this is one feature they should have kept.

So Much To Do, So Little Time

The alarm you can set for tasks on the Pocket PC defaults to 8:00am and there is no way to change that with the Tasks application. Again, apps like Pocket Informant get around this limitation, allowing you to set alarms for any time you desire.

While I certainly wish you could set a start time for a task, my Handheld PC made it slightly better in one way. The Handheld PC allowed you to set the time your day started, and task alarms would go off then. I'm not a morning person, so I would set my day to start at 10 AM so my task alarms wouldn't wake me up. :-)

Of course, if you really want a task to pop up before your work day starts, you're hosed no matter what. For those instances, you have to use an appointment or one of the alarms in the Clock settings applet.

Hang On, Let Me Grab A Pen

Many users also take notes on their PDA. Sometimes very quick memos and other times meeting notes. Palm devices offer two choices - Note Pad or Memo Pad. First, Memo Pad. This has been with Palm from the very beginning. It is a very simple screen where you just enter data. The Memos are limited to 4K, so if you want more than that, you will need to install a third party application. 4K may sound like a lot, but consider that as of right now this post has 18K characters. So if I had used Memo Pad to jot these thoughts down if I were on a plane or train, they would be split among 6 memos and counting.

Well, five and counting (7 or 8 if you put each major section in its own note, I think). :-)

Of course, I can't really see typing in 18K worth of data on my Pocket PC at one time. If you have to do it, no limits are certainly better, of course.

Anyway, those are my comments. As I've never used a Palm, it was interesting to see how the Palm world worked.

Steve

TopDog

12-28-2002, 12:30 PM

I've never used a Palm. I started 4 years ago with a Nokia 9110 (Symbian OS) and loved that machine. OK, It had only grayscale, and wouldn't sync with outlook, but it's own calendar software, but it was great, it blew my world. Then I started working for ePocket and had to change to a CE-device, namely the HP Jornada 680. I thought it was great, but a little to big and slow.

I kept my Nokia until the day I got the Compaq Aero 1500. Now I got my first PPC and the batterytime on the Aero... great, althoug still a grayscale machine.

Then I changed to the Jornada 545, then 548, then Casio E-125, then iPAQ 3630 then iPAQ 3850. All this because of my job (not having payed for anyone of them :-) )

I love the features of the PPC, wouldn't dream of a Palm, but hate the low battery-time. (I'm a poweruser, use a Audiovox GSM/GPRS CF-card a lot and lots of gameing on it).

Jonathan1

12-28-2002, 01:24 PM

Geesh Ed. Someone sure got a burr down your pants. LOL. I haven't seen a slapshot this hard back into the Palm camp in a LOOOOONG time. :D

One thing to note about Palms. I do believe their internal PDA apps. (Notes, Contacts, Calendar) are faster then on the Pocket PC. A friend has a Handspring visor and on a side by side test against my Jornada 568 it was notably faster launching the apps, and inputting data. OK so that was a really informal test at the time but that’s the impression I got. I keep getting the impression with the Pocket PC that the phrase “Jack of all trades, master of none” applies. *shrugs* But then you have robust apps like Pocket Informant so it really does balance out in the end.

This ease of use crap is just that. Crap. Any new GUI takes a few minutes to get use to but once you are up and running on it it’s easy. It’s all FUD being spread by Palm and Palm zealots. I’m sorry but even the Palm sized PC’s, while unstable, were as easy to use as Windows.
Even Palm isn’t all that easy. Do you know how long it took me to figure out how to change the sync speed for Hotsync on a Palm V?!?! Vs. the simplicity of going into the settings on the PPC and connections. How much simpler can it get?

DrtyBlvd

12-28-2002, 01:39 PM

Great article Ed :D

Anthony Caruana

12-28-2002, 02:10 PM

Great article Ed. Hope the writer that put together that infommercial for Palm has read it.

Every fine a Palm user sees my iPAQ they sprout the Same 'It's easier' line until they try it out. So far I've managed a couple of converts :P

Timothy Rapson

12-28-2002, 02:41 PM

After three months with a Symbian/Epoc OS Mako, 9 months with a mono Ipaq, and 6 months with a Clie NR70V:

The Symbian worked first time, everytime, until it died. I loved that device. The number one feature I want in an OS is that it do what it is supposed to do when I tell it to.

The Mono Ipaq (with PPC 2000) was VERY easy for me to learn how to use. It works just like my desktop and with FITALY I could enter text nearly as fast (after a steep 30-60 day learning curve.)

The Clie does have that smooth screen, had a superior word processor (WordSmith) that is now eclipsed by TextMaker.

The most important difference for me was that; while I had to reset my Mako never (I honestly did not know where the reset pins were for 3 months) and I had to reset my Ipaq at least 3 times a week (sometimes three times a day) and it would often do the dumbest things (for example I could listen to my Beatles songs on my Ipaq for a week and then one day it would just tell me that it had no license listed for them and I had to reinstall them to the flash card.) I won't go back to PPC until it is very cheap, absolutely necessary to get a new function, or the OS is made to do what it is supposed to do far more consistently.

My Clie virtually never crashes or locks up with the included software. Some programs are buggy, and some like BugMe that are buggy (pun not intended) are exactly what I want. I won't put up with them. I don't have to on the Palm OS. On the Ipaq, when Notes took 3 minutes to boot and I had to reset, I was stuck. Notes is built-in, so you can't get rid of it. Palm OS Memo-Pad NEVER does this.

On the other hand, the way categories works (fails to work) is MADDENING. The way a Palm OS syncs it should be against the law to say "the connected organizer" in the same sentence with Palm. I am at my desktop and I have a picture on my CLie that I want to send to someone. How do I do it? Well, I can't. There is no way for me to go into the Clies memory resident files and get my picture. Silly, just plain silly. There is no desktop client (why do I need a "client anyway! What idiot made this work like this? My Mako was 10 times as easy to get files from!) for many programs.

Simple. I'll give you simple!

But, because I value that camera, that hi-res screen, and most of all the stability, I am keeping my Clie and recommending the same to others. Most of all, though, I tell them not to bother. The PDA world is not ready for most people.

mookie123

12-28-2002, 03:02 PM

This article below will keep Ed busy for the weekend. :lol:

(it's classic "tap counting" argument)
--------------------------------
http://www.foxpop.ndirect.co.uk/Palm/zen_01.htm
"I can enter data more quickly on the NR70V than I ever could on my various Pocket PCs and I can get a better overview of it, too."

GoldKey

12-28-2002, 03:38 PM

"Excel, for example, allows you to individually password protect files."

Unless I am missing something, you cannot password protect excel files on pocket PC. For me this is a HUGE annoyance.

Sslixtis

12-28-2002, 03:40 PM

Great Article Ed!

There are still Palm users left? Ok, ok, so I do know one :wink: At my place of employment, about 2 years ago we were 75% Palm, 20% Win CE, 5% Other. Today I only know of 1 Palm user at work, he claims expense being the reason he hasn't converted. Now with the Dell Axim, HP 1910 and Viewsonic V35, I think we might be able to move him over to PPC 8)

Cheers!

Ed Hansberry

12-28-2002, 03:48 PM

Foo Fighter

12-28-2002, 04:20 PM

Each platform has its share of oddities and ambiguities. The biggest problem with PalmOS is its lack of native file support. It is shameful that we are now (well almost) living in the year 2003 and POS still can't open a text file or JPEG. This creates the unnecessary task of having to run conduits and middleware conversion tools in order to convert a simple industry standard file into PalmOS's proprietary *.PDB format.

On the other hand, Microsoft's use of file extensions is also problematic at times. It allows, too easily, any application to assume control over a particular file format. The result is that you end up with the same tug-of-war that takes place on the desktop when two competing apps (like Real and Windows Media) want the same file. This happened to me recently on my Axim when I wanted to read A Christmas Carol in PalmReader format. I opened PR, went to the "open" dialog box....and there was no title listed. I then went into File Explorer, located the file, and discovered that HanDbase claimed control of all *.PDB files. Only, unlike the desktop, you can't simply "right-click" and select "Open with". Great! So now I either look for a third party file explorer that has this feature (RESCO perhaps)....or I Uninstall HanDbase, which is kind of counterproductive since I use that app all the time. All this fuss over a simple ebook.

There are other PPC annoyances as well. How about getting those Windows-like error messages when deleting an app? Error! Can not delete the file //Program Files/Application/Applicationthatwon'tgoaway.dll :roll:

JvanEkris

12-28-2002, 04:26 PM

(it's classic "tap counting" argument)
--------------------------------
http://www.foxpop.ndirect.co.uk/Palm/zen_01.htm
"I can enter data more quickly on the NR70V than I ever could on my various Pocket PCs and I can get a better overview of it, too."

This clearly is a comparisson article writen by someone who only knew the basic actions on a pocketPC. He claims:
1. moving an appointment must be done by cut and past: not so. You can drag it within the same day by tapping on the sidebar of the appointment.

2. he kicks pocket outlooks butt because he can't get an overview of his appointments. Setting his calander to 30 min precission would help, as well as the "agenda" look, which is a lifesaver in such moments.

BTW: who EVER heard of a 15 minute meeting ??? Not me :)

Jaap

Larry L

12-28-2002, 04:27 PM

mookie123

:evil: The article you pointed was not a classic tap counting argument. It was a classic tap counting distortion.

I sat here with my Palm and my Ipaq, and could not duplicate his Palm argument, without first tapping many times to get exactly where he wanted to be to start counting.

I understand you did not write this article. But you did point me and others to a nicely formated, table of lies.

I like my Ipaq.
I like my Palm.

I don't like ******** and lies. The author did not present his opinion, he presented a deliberate distortion. :twisted:

Foo Fighter

12-28-2002, 04:30 PM

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

12-28-2002, 04:39 PM

Speaking of middleware, this brings up another observation: PalmOS is still more simplified, out of the box, compared to PPC. But when you move beyond those basics, and download third party applications, conduits, conversion tools, hacks, launchers, add-ins and whatnot....PalmOS simplicity breaks and the device becomes increasingly more difficult to use.
IMO, Palms weren't built to do much more than your standard PIM tasks. I will say this, for users that haven't used either device, the PPC would be slightly easier to pick up and figure out (anyone who tells me text input is easier on a Palm is smoking something serious), but the Palm would take a lot less time to master (in terms of its basic functions), requires less maintenance (ActiveSync vs HotSync, required resets, etc) and it is zippier from screen to screen when inputting info.

There is a ceiling though as to what the Palms were meant to do and you're right, when you start getting into hacks and conversions, it's anything BUT straightforward.

Without significant changes, I couldn't see myself returning to Palm.

GoldKey

12-28-2002, 04:41 PM

Unless I am missing something, you cannot password protect excel files on pocket PC. For me this is a HUGE annoyance.
Open a spreadsheet. Edit| menu, then Password. :) This is on a PPC 2002. I am 99.9% sure PPC 2000 had it as well.

Sorry I was not more specific. When you sync the protected file you created above back to your pc, you loose the password protection. Same if you create a password protected spreadsheet on the PC, you can't have the password maintained when you sync to PPC. So every time I move a password protected sheet back and forth, I have to manually go in and reset passwords. Quite annoying.

mookie123

12-28-2002, 04:42 PM

:evil: The article you pointed was not a classic tap counting argument. It was a classic tap counting distortion.

No, I didn't write the articles, and I thought the articles is completely silly since he doens't even bother mentioning the commonly used short cuts etc.

I never use NR so can't tell if he is right or wrong. But I thougth Ed is going to have a field day with that article. lol

that_kid

12-28-2002, 05:00 PM

When my friend got his dell he told me that some things were tough to understand, but after a day or so he doesn't say that anymore. I asked him if he wanted a palm instead and he flat out told me HELL NO. Once he was used to the interface he could get around very easy.
I belong to a pda group here in richmond and there is only one other guy in our group besides me who has a ppc. The head of the group used to have a 3870 and then switched to that kyocera palm phone from sprint and everything in the group is geared towards palms. I was talking to one of the members and he told me that he loves his palm and didn't like the ppc because the os crashed...WTF??? I've never had the os crash, I never saw a pocket BSOD, so I told him that it's not the OS but the 3rd party programs that can cause a crash. With my 3970 I only have to do a soft reset is if I start switching out alot of networking cards and sometimes not even then. I can't blame him though, it's what he's been brainwashed to know, and maybe he doesn't need the advance power of the ppc. Someone here mentioned that the ppc has alot of features that can come in handy when you're ready.

rdrose61

12-28-2002, 06:02 PM

I am always asked to recommend a PDA by friends and coworkers. I inquire about their needs, pc skills, dislikes, and budget. Most often I recommend a PocketPC.

The real difference to me is the Palm devices feel and function simply as a PIM. Most people seeking my advise want more. They want a PC. The PPC is closer to a true PC.

I also recommend (and usually assist in installing) WisBar and MenuPlus. This gets the PPC closer to what they are familiar with, Win*. Most can then navigate easily and are familiar with the paradigm.

deich

12-28-2002, 06:21 PM

I used one of the early Palms (one minor drop and the screen cracked), then the HP 540 (developed some sort of short and got VERY hot!!!), now have a Dell.

There's no doubt that the Palm and PocketPCs are different -- Microsoft code bloat is obvious in the OS, apps, and add-on programs. As an engineer, I have to admire how much the Palm platform does with a little bit of hardware.Also, for the PPC, it's important to have the soft reset button handy. Palm has as many add-ons as PPC, and even with hacks, they seem to be more stable.

There are also many similarities -- Either does simple PIM functions well. Either needs add-ons.

The most interesting thing to me is how the PPC is evolving into more of a computer mindset. Flash ROM for OS updates, storing apps in Flash or RAM. I suppose it won't be long before we can remove those useless Microsoft PPC "Word" and "Excel" apps so they don't take up room when we buy better apps.

Maybe someday we will be able to look at our PPCs as a hardware platform that can run different software and even different OS (provided we have the right drivers.) Then we will be able to focus on the quality of the OS separately from the quality of the hardware.

Which leads to my real gripe with all PPCs. The quality of the hardware is poor. None of the devices lasts very long. Yeah, it's a hostile environment. But wouldn't it be great if we could keep a device & update the software for 3 to 5 years, after which advancing technology would make us "need" to switch to new hardware. Wouldn't it be neet if the old PPCs could be donated, still in working condition, to a school?

Job

12-28-2002, 06:44 PM

Transcriber is buggy . . . or maybe that is just my opinion, but after using Grafiti for over a year, I am incredibly comfortable w/ the stylus strokes and am capable of inputing data very quickly. For me there is no contest, of the supplied input methods, block recognizer is easily my favorite. That said, I am grateful for the option, there are occasions that I use transcriber.
Secondly, although Ed's article laid out in great detail all the intricacies of PPC and the functionality compared to Palm, I do not think he adequately made the case for its relative simplicity. Coming from the Palm platform and having been a PC user my entire life practically (I am 17, I think I still remember QBasic's blue screen), I still found the learning curve easily twice as steep for the PPC. Palm is pickup and go, and while it may not have as many useful functions, it is undeniably easier to use. Take, for example, Activesync vs. Hotsync. When I still had my Sony Clie, putting applications or eBooks on it could not be simpler. I would download the item, unzip it, and the familiar PDBs would pop up in the window, a simple click opened them in the Install window of my Sony Desktop. After syncing, I easily located them in the Unfiled category (or occasionaly already moved to games or whatever). Hardly ever did I need to read the accompying Readme file. Contrast this w/ Activesync and applications for PPC. Don't get me wrong, I like having access to all my folders and files, but unless there is a self-extracting installer accompying the program, getting the files in all the right folders is an extreme pain. I rarely am able to install something to my device without consulting the readme file.
For me, I was grateful when I smashed the screen of my Clie, it meant that I could by the color, mp3 playing device I had been dreaming of and really not coutning on purchasing for another 6 months to a year. Initially, I looked to Sony to hook me up w/ a newer, better device. However, after carefully looking over the functions vs. the price, I was dissuaded. Simply put, unless you are looking refurbished, used, or clearance the prices for color and music on a Palm device are outlandish. So, I began looking at PPCs. To make hours and hours of research short, a few days after beginning my search, I realized that I found my handheld of the future in a Dell.
Believe it or not, claim simplicity all you want, but I will tell you without a doubt, for the new, non-power user Palm is inherently superior to PPC. To me there is no contest. That said, I'll never switch back to Palm :D

Roosterman

12-28-2002, 06:50 PM

Ed,

Very interesting article. Did you send it to the "Palm Phanatic" that wrote the original one? :D I think you hit it right on the head when you said it is different. Different isn't necessarily better or worse, just different. What different really comes down to is change. If it is different that means you have to change, and for far to many people, change is bad.

Another question I have about this journalist(?), was this in the editorial section or an article. If an editorial, than an opinion is valid. If an article, my feeling is that his opinion has no place. Why not do the true journalistic thing by presenting facts and letting the reader make up their own mind. As a reader, I believe I am intelligent enough to form an opinion without some one telling me what I should think. :evil:.

Timothy Rapson

12-28-2002, 07:49 PM

BTW: who EVER heard of a 15 minute meeting ??? Not me :)

Jaap

I have been to 15 minute meetings. They're the ones that only last an hour. :lol:

kaiden.1

12-28-2002, 07:51 PM

So many different view points......I like it!

I came from the palm world; and was a very HEAVY palm user. I also have a lot of associates that still use palm. I think I understand the methodology of what they are calling "SIMPLE". I believe it is the easy interface. You want contacts; you got contacts; you want phone numbers; you got phone numbers. It's all tied into one. No need for all these menus added complex programs because the palm device is one big menu and it's all tied in. That is the KEY.

Can the answer be that simple? That we as PPC users over look it because we can do this better and that better and blah blah blah.

That is what people like about it. It is SIMPLE. People like simple things, and the more complex things get the more it takes to understand them. Remember the "keep it simple stupid" rule?

I have to admit that I love my PPC. I wouldn't go back to my old palm either, but when I have a palm in my hands it is so easy to look stuff up with one tap I don't have to sort through all the "how do I get to back to that function" or menu, because our PPC PIM's are quite complex. Many of us PPC Geeks are Tech oriented so we don't know what it is like to live in a simple world because we like gadgets and lots of extras that make our minds think and give us the world of geometry at our fingertips.

And I think that the "common everyday Joe Public" are not high tech oriented at all and the simple things are what they prefer. They like their lives simple, and after all the world is full of lot's of different people. You can't get everyone to like just one thing. Look at how diverse the PPC Manufacturers are and everyone has a different favorite! We all like different things, and yes some simple minded people out there are going to choose and like the Palm over the PPC, it's just a fact of life. And because of this I don't really think that the war to win "over" palm will ever be decisive as a clobbering victory. That is why the PPC world has realized that they needed to jump into that "simple" market to compete with the palm by offering simple PPC's (like the BE-300). I think that the mainstream PPC is really not in competition with the Palm at all. Because it really has a different demographic. It lies somewhere inbetween. Look at what people are buying and look at how they are buying and why they choose the devices that they are choosing. It isn't going to be as simple as Palm vs. PPC. It' is just not! I think that PPC will evolve into it's own catagory and leave Palm in it's own catagory and both will eventually not really compete at all as we watch the PPC turn more into a mini laptop kind of device.

I have to agree that there is a simplicity about the Palm that I really like and somewhat miss. It does what people want and it does it without a lot of bells and whistles or menus. No harm No foul! Some people like that simpleness. They just want to see there schedule. That's it! Boy to us geeks we ask can such a person possibly exist? (As we shun away from that dreaded thought) But the answer is again simple..... YES! people do exist that want something simply that simple!

The thing to look at is this "Not everyone out there is just like YOU!" There lives and world are diverse. And so "diverse" must be the world of gadgets and devices and PDA's.

Great article and lots of good posts! I enjoyed reading them all. thanks for the thread! :D

Timothy Rapson

12-28-2002, 07:53 PM

Same if you create a password protected spreadsheet on the PC, you can't have the password maintained when you sync to PPC. So every time I move a password protected sheet back and forth, I have to manually go in and reset passwords. Quite annoying.

Isn't there a program called "SyncBack" that corrects this automatically. I don't use it, and in fact, it may be a Palm OS program. But, if there is a utility to do this on Palm, there may be one for PPC.

Unreal32

12-28-2002, 07:56 PM

On the other hand, most Pocket PC applications work like databases on a desktop computer: that is, you have to tap a 'New' or 'Edit' button and then enter your data in a form which pops up on the screen. Not only is this less intuitive, it also prevents you from seeing things in-context.

In that "zen" article, this guy says PPC apps work like your computer.. then says it is non-intuitive. Uh. Uh. Okay. Sure.

He also goes on to say:

Another example of wrongly applying 'desktop PC thinking' is the way Pocket Outlook uses the same 'blocked time' approach as its big brother on the desktop. Unfortunately, this often doesn't provide enough meaningful information on a Pocket PC to make it of much use in real life situations.

Now, I don't know about you, but I very much use Pocket Outlook as well as the full desktop version in "real life situations." All day, every day.

As people have pointed out, this "article" he wrote is full of distortions and biases towards Palm. Rubbish.

Timothy Rapson

12-28-2002, 07:57 PM

Excellent work on the article itself, Ed.

A final thing that I have to say, since this all comes up again. Whoever designed the way the PPC uses internal and external memory is a genius. I could not imagine a better implementation. The way flash cards work is almost a supernatural experience.

I still cannot get over how cool it is to just plug in cards and install programs and move stuff around without a care in the world for how it is done. Magnificent.

Mike Wagstaff

12-28-2002, 11:03 PM

Whoever designed the way the PPC uses internal and external memory is a genius. I could not imagine a better implementation.
I could imagine an implementation whereby I don't have to manually drag the memory slider to free up enough program memory to run a memory-intensive application... But maybe that's just me being picky! ;)

Kati Compton

12-28-2002, 11:16 PM

blusparkles

12-29-2002, 12:20 AM

Great article! Since I've never had a Palm, I assumed that they were easier to use for people who wanted simple PIM functionality. And I suppose this still holds true to an extent after reading this article.

A great follow-up to this article would be a comparison of third-party applications on the Palm and Pocket PC that replicate (and supercede) the stock applications that are part of the OS. There's no denying that most (if not all) stock PPC2K2 applications are fairly crippled in comparison to some of the third-party options available. For power-users, a better indication of the suitability of a Palm or a Pocket PC would be to examine what a Palm or Pocket PC can do with the proper software.

So this would involve comparing Agendus/DateBk to Pocket Informant/Agenda Fusion, WordSmith to TextMaker, etc. There have been a lot of blanket assertions that Palm applications like DateBk are far superior to Pocket PC apps like Pocket Informant, but such assertions are usually not substantiated to the same extent as assertions in this article. Would be a great read! :wink:

fyiguy

12-29-2002, 12:24 AM

Great Article!!! It should be echoed in print in Hal's publication...

For most people it is still seeing is believing. PocketPCs are on the rise in the marketplace, but camps are always there - that same us vs them thing that exists in every technology market. It takes a while for some people to convert, but if they can justify their device and are happy with it, all you can do is show them what your PPC can do and if they see the light, then all is good.

I too get a tad fumed at anything reviewed, where the writer seems to write the same thing he/she read somewhere else, doesn't have an original opinion, didn't bother to try out the device, or appears that they didn't even take it out of the box. Every review seems to have a bias to it, but that is just the writers opinion and they are entitled to it(even if it is wrong :D ). I think Ed's article does a good job at educating people to the differences and if people take the time to read it, they can make their own opinions based on his findings...

Any type of PDA is still better than no PDA...

Well we all want to know who would win in a fight right :?:

At www.googlefight.com Pocket PC vs Palm Pilot yields
a pocketpc win of 2,790,000 results to 858,000 results

http://www.googlefight.com/cgi-bin/compare.pl?q1=pocket+pc&q2=palm+pilot&B1=Make+a+fight%21&compare=1&langue=us

Just fyi...
:D

marlof

12-29-2002, 12:51 AM

At www.googlefight.com Pocket PC vs Palm Pilot yields
a pocketpc win of 2,790,000 results to 858,000 results

LOL! Of course, Palm Pilots went out of the stores ages ago. But although Palm beats Pocket PC hands down Pocket PC still wins over Palm OS. ;)

Fishie

12-29-2002, 03:21 AM

cyp

12-29-2002, 08:10 AM

12-29-2002, 11:11 AM

wow, i just read all of this.

great

amazing

work ed.

i have the top end clie nx, as well as just about about every pocket pc and this is very accurate.

cheers,
pt

DaleReeck

12-29-2002, 02:05 PM

I don't think Palm is easier to operate, but it is easier to maintain. I'm a stickeler for keeping my PPC clean. That is, making sure that my program menus are organized, the registry is clean (especially when deleting programs since apparently no uninstall program for PPC ever designed managed to remove its registry entries) and keeping files in their proper place. I do have a lot of stuff on my PPC though :) However, I don't spend any less time keeping my desktop computer maintained, which I think tells you something about PPC and Palm.

When compared to the ease at which I can maintain my Palm phone (Treo 300 - with a lot fewer programs) thanks to its flat file system and no registry), it tells you that a PPC has a different goal in mind than a Palm.

shawnc

12-29-2002, 02:53 PM

OK, I'm a little late to the party. I just spent five minutes searching for how to convert to .lit format so I could read Ed''s dissertation :way to go: in MS Reader only to give and see Jason's link that does the conversion for me :?: IT WENT GREAT and I enjoy reading in this format much more than in Word. I was about to "cut and paste" the text into Word (non-techie solution).

My question is are there any easy solutions for converting files.documents into .lit format. I have an electronic book I purchased years ago to read on my old ipaq. The book is in adobe and I didn't realize that it was for desktop reading only. Well, I am able to read it on my Dell with the Adobe reader, but it is not convenient at all. Too much scrolling to the left and right and the font size is not very good either. I would love to convert this to .lit (if possible). I realize that adobe probably makes this pretty difficult but figured it was worth a shot.

Thanx for any advice/help.

jlc, just jlc

12-29-2002, 05:00 PM

Having gone back to the Palm (T|T) after using a 568 (since it first came out), I'd say the original writer was correct in uch of his assertions. I find teh Palm to be much more useful on a day to day basis, which, coupled with its better battery life makes it a better tool for me.

I really tried to get my HP to work the way I wanted - PI, AF, Traveller, WISBar, etc. - but it never matched the Palm's ease of use. Sure, it has more games and plays MP3s and WMA files, but that was not enough to keep me in the PPC camp.

The one thing I miss is native support for Word and Excel files (jpeg support already exists); although I don't miss the PPCs insistance on stripping formating from PC files.

Palm, with the T|T, has put itself back into the game big time - the next year should be interesting, for both OS. Competition is a good thing...

Pony99CA

12-30-2002, 12:55 AM

On the other hand, Microsoft's use of file extensions is also problematic at times. It allows, too easily, any application to assume control over a particular file format. The result is that you end up with the same tug-of-war that takes place on the desktop when two competing apps (like Real and Windows Media) want the same file. This happened to me recently on my Axim when I wanted to read A Christmas Carol in PalmReader format. I opened PR, went to the "open" dialog box....and there was no title listed. I then went into File Explorer, located the file, and discovered that HanDbase claimed control of all *.PDB files. Only, unlike the desktop, you can't simply "right-click" and select "Open with". Great! So now I either look for a third party file explorer that has this feature (RESCO perhaps)....or I Uninstall HanDbase, which is kind of counterproductive since I use that app all the time. All this fuss over a simple ebook.

I don't think you can blame the issue of file extensions on the operating system so much. Most of the problem occurs thanks to sofware devleopers who just choose a file extension without checking any of the references (for example, R. Harvey's FileExt (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/r_harvey), Wotsit's Format Search (http://www.wotsit.org/search.asp) or ExtSearch (http://www.extsearch.com) ) to see if somebody else is using that extension. Yes, you can eventually run out of extensions, but a little imagination can help.

If you want the OS to fix this, Microsoft should look into what OS/2 did with file extensions and right clicks. On OS/2, if more than one application used an extension (like graphic editors and .jpg), the context menu would show all of the applications that could open the file, and you could just pick the one that you wanted. Double-clicking a file would get the default application, but you didn't need the stupid Open With... dialog in many case.

As for changing which extension belongs to which application, if you're comfortable with a registry editor, you can fix that for free. Use the PHM Registry Editor (http://www.phm.lu/Products/PocketPC/RegEdit).

Steve

Janak Parekh

12-30-2002, 04:03 AM

If you want the OS to fix this, Microsoft should look into what OS/2 did with file extensions and right clicks.
... or what the Mac did: resource forks. Oh, wait, Apple's abandoning that 8O (insert howls from old-school Apple users here)

--janak

Steveb123

12-30-2002, 04:29 AM

i was an original palm user. recently, i made the switch to a dell axim x5 and am very happy with the change. basically, i am a techie. i spend a lot of time on computers. i decided to convert because i saw that i could get so much more done on a pocket pc. tons more to be exact. before, with a palm, i had an organizer to keep track of my life. now, i have that and so much more. the pocket pc lives true to its name. you essentially have a pc in you hand. palm can not match that.

digital-doc

12-30-2002, 05:23 AM

Deslock

12-30-2002, 06:59 AM

Well, since the point of this thread is that PPC is as easy, if not easier than, Palm, maybe someone can answer these questions:

Notes stored on the PPC's storage card don't sync with Outlook. Any ideas on how to fix this? (or do notes need to be stored in main memory to sync?)

I imported several hundred notes from my Sony Clie into Outlook, which displays them fine. However, the HP1910 only shows the title of each note. It appears that no <end> character imported, which is fine for the desktop but not for the HP1910. Any ideas other than going into each one and hitting enter? (which will only take 10 minutes, but seems silly)

PPC's Notes program blows big fat hairy oozing chunks, performance-wise. Memo ran instantaneously on the Palm, even with hundreds of records. Notes takes several seconds to load, which is unacceptable when trying to look up stuff or take quick notes. Any way to improve this? Or, do I need to start using a different program for my all my old memos? If so, is there a program that PPC's universal Find will support? Any suggestions?

I sometimes wrote down little pieces of info in the Palm's Address Book, Todo List, Memo, Datebook, or Hi-note. I never had to worry where I wrote something down because the Palm's search function was quick and searched through everything. Am I going to lose that functionality with PPC?

One last question: how do you get Notes to recognize sub categories? Or, what 3rd party program would you suggest for this? (as well as the other problems)

- Thanks!

Cornerstone

12-30-2002, 08:04 AM

I have a PPC Christmas story to share...

I just got back from spending a nice Christmas with my folks, complete with good food, fun presents, and a complete re-install of XP on my parents PC due to a nasty virus that took over their machine. :o

At first, I was berating myself for forgetting to bring the extra hard disk from home that I was going to use to transfer their important documents and email addresses to before I formatted their one hard disk :? , and then I remembered... My new Dell Axium that I happened to have with me. :D After a quick install of Activesync on my parents PC, I connected up my Dell and transferred all their files over to it. Then I proceeded with the XP re-install, after which I connected up my Dell and transferred their important documents back to their pc again. Whoohoo! All their files were intact and my parents were back up an running again, ready for the next virus. It was a merry Christmas after all! :D

Now try that with a Palm! :P

Pony99CA

12-30-2002, 08:34 AM

Notes stored on the PPC's storage card don't sync with Outlook. Any ideas on how to fix this? (or do notes need to be stored in main memory to sync?)

Nothing on a storage card will synchronize with ActiveSync. You'll have to store your notes in main memory.

Steve

ux4484

12-30-2002, 08:35 AM

I have to say, the article IS about as objective as Ed can get ;) methinks starting with a m100 with no hacks (especially grafitti hacks) was not really fair based on what he holds in his hand every day. I agree grafitti as shipped on most Palm based units is tedious, but with just a few hacks (caps, graspeedy, and keyboard) it becomes a very powerful and reliable input system. My old Helio also used Jot, and it really felt like a step backward when I first started using grafitti......but after the above mentioned hacks, it operates even better than Jot.
I would also point out that all Hansprings come with Datebook+ (Datebk3) which has a VERY usefull two week view that DOES allow you to edit a appointment by tapping it

Lastly, I have a multi-OS gripe: The sketch program that shipped on the Vtech Helio is/was more powerful than either of the apps (Memo pad and Notes) that he mentions in his article. I scratch my head that no one is including something more like it with their OS (although they can be purchased third party). I can only liken it to having a full blown version (albiet monochrome) of "Paint" on your PDA along with all the shape/drawing/text tools AND full freehand sketching abilities.
I'm especially surprised that MS does not have a ported version for the PPC (MS bought "PC Paintbrush" back in '89 and has been packaging it as "Paint" with Windows ever since).

I have to say I wasn't too impressed with the speed on my Jornada 520 especially for PIM and Excel usage (part of the reason for dumping it), I can only hope that PPC2K2 on my soon to be deliverd Axim will dispell my Jornada/PPC2K dissapointment.

Fzara

12-30-2002, 08:52 AM

Ed, extremely good comparison of the Palm and the PocketPC.

Although, I think you did miss something. If I recall, the Palm OS does not have something similar to the Today screen. When I closed the ebook, I realized that tomorrow night, is Garbage night, and that I still have to take the car for inspection. Honestly, I dont think the basic Palm OS would have told me that, and im glad that someone actually put time into designing something the Today screen.

btw: Ed, did you change your avatar to 2003? Verry nice!

Pony99CA

12-30-2002, 10:09 AM

If I recall, the Palm OS does not have something similar to the Today screen. When I closed the ebook, I realized that tomorrow night, is Garbage night, and that I still have to take the car for inspection. Honestly, I dont think the basic Palm OS would have told me that, and im glad that someone actually put time into designing something the Today screen.

Isn't reminding you of these things what alarms are for? :-) I assume the Palm supports alarms....

Steve

Ed Hansberry

12-30-2002, 02:31 PM

>The bottom line is today, in December of 2002, there is no Palm device that even comes close to touching the functionality and beautiful rich color screens of the Pocket PCs <

Did you forget about the Sony Clie?
Oh, I didn't realize the Clie had the functionality of a Pocket PC. Things like built in email, built in IM, Terminal Server client, VPN, full screen handwriting recognition, ability to seamlessly use storage cards, support for Audible, voice recording, etc. I know the NX70 supports a few of those, but most Clie's don't support any of those.

Ed Hansberry

12-30-2002, 02:33 PM

Ed Hansberry

12-30-2002, 02:37 PM

I have to say, the article IS about as objective as Ed can get ;) methinks starting with a m100 with no hacks (especially grafitti hacks) was not really fair based on what he holds in his hand every day.

It would never serve me, but the point is, all these people in the media don't say "The Palm OS is easier once you install hacks." So I compared a stripped down Palm, the simple :roll: device to the built in functionality of the Pocket PC, carefully pointing out where third party tools were common. I'd wager less than 5% of all Palm users worldwide use grafitti hacks. Palm themselves said last year that no one third party program was even on 10% of their handhelds.

Fzara

12-30-2002, 03:38 PM

Fzara

12-30-2002, 03:40 PM

Isn't reminding you of these things what alarms are for? :-) I assume the Palm supports alarms....

Steve

Hahaha. Alarms. yeah right! Although the alarm sounds on the Palm did sound better, nothing comes close to what the Today screen does, or what it CAN do with PocketPlus, TaskPlus, or other helpful 3rd party add-ons.

Janak Parekh

12-30-2002, 04:23 PM

I'd have to say that is impossible. Considering Docs to Go, Datebk, and uhh, soem other really cool apps, I doubt that its less than 10%.
I do think so. You can take a look at the numbers, but of all the people I know that have a Palm, most of them don't have DateBk or any such app installed. They use the built-in apps and occasionally play a game, and that's about it. Getting HotSyncing to work is a hassle for most; not as much anymore, now that everyone uses USB, but the average consumer takes it out of the box and uses it.

--janak

ux4484

12-30-2002, 04:53 PM

It would never serve me, but the point is, all these people in the media don't say "The Palm OS is easier once you install hacks." So I compared a stripped down Palm, the simple :roll: device to the built in functionality of the Pocket PC, carefully pointing out where third party tools were common. I'd wager less than 5% of all Palm users worldwide use grafitti hacks. Palm themselves said last year that no one third party program was even on 10% of their handhelds.

I agree that many neophytes may not have hacks, but how can anyone make that kind of statement when hackmaster (and it's siblings) and most of the hacks are free?
I'd wager most of the Palm users I know DO use grafitti hacks.

On this "fix" subject I point out your statement on multitasking on the PPC: "Now, I admit I used Pocket Nav, a freeware task switcher. The Pocket PC does a fantastic job of multitasking, but for some reason, includes no way for you to either close an application when done or easily switch to another app. Complex? Unnecessarily so. Easy to fix on the Pocket PC?"
I would counter that grafitti is just as easy to "fix" as the lack of application control is on PPC (I used WISbar myself). You, like myself, and the majority of folks here are not typical PDA users and will find the tools to make things the most useful. I realize your article was to counter the Media comments on PDA ease of use, but invoking free/shareware PPC OS-boosting third party tools is unfair if not including the same for Palm.

Job

12-30-2002, 07:59 PM

Hey, Ed, speaking of hacks . . . where are they for PPC? When I was a Palm user, XMaster was my favorite program. The hacks made Palm OS what is was. I probably had about ten to twenty hacks running, from popup lists of previously run programs to multiple button mapping, hacks extended Palms funtionality until it met my needs. So, where are the PPC hacks? I don't need to completely replace my PIMs, I just want certain features, like being able to insert a tappable hyperlink from my task to my contacts (e.g. I write "call Juli" as a task, and when I tap "Juli," up pops her contact info, not very difficult, right?). Am I missing something, or are there no simple hacks out there for PPC? Is my previously mentioned hypothetical already possible w/o hacks and I just don't realize?

ux4484

12-31-2002, 12:24 AM

speaking of hacks . . . where are they for PPC?

heh.....they're called applications.....called WISBar, gigabar, Pocket Nav, fitaly, Battery pack, allexplorer, calendar plus, newshortcut, pocket facelift, pocketnotepad, powercontacts, tiny menu, storage tools, speedclean, etc, etc, etc :wink:

Since hacks are just tweaks to the .pdb database, they are either enabled or disabled. PPC, having an actual file stucture requres an app to run to take over those little tweaky thingys that annoy us. Some of the PPC hacks are actually provided my MS (calendar plus and powercontacts come to mind). They are there, but they just have to function differently because of the opposite natures of the two OS's. Conceptually speaking though.....they are the same.....functionality improvers......but Job already knows that methinks :D :wink:

Deslock

12-31-2002, 05:51 AM

You should try HPCNotes from www.phatware.com - The built in notes app does have some shortcomings. I have about 15 notes so it is no big deal. I keep everything else either in Word or Listpro, but then I don't care much for Notes on the desktop either.
Thanks for the tip Ed... I found out about HPCNotes in another thread and am going to try it out. Why do you use ListPro vs the other databases out there? Also, is there no solution to the other PPC deficiencies I brought up?

BTW, I agree with the dissenters about this whole PalmOS is simpler "issue". PalmOS *is* simpler in many ways... even Ed wrote to as much near the end of his initial post. Whether or not it's so much simpler that it matter to most users is debatable. And while PPC offers some advantages over PalmOS, PalmOS also offers functionality that PPC does not. I'm really liking the HP1910, hardware-wise (it rocks, despite the blocky, low-resolution screen, lack of a flip cover, and lack of a jog-dial). However, I've had to give up a lot of PalmOS features... at this point I'm still carrying both units (but I hope to be able to stop doing that soon).

On a side note, I thought I read an amusing (but unflattering to Ed and PPCthoughts) post in this thread earlier today. Now it's gone. Did the author delete it? Or did one of the admins here get rid of it? If so, why? Sure, it poked fun at Ed for his frothing-at-the-mouth-bias... so what? He deserves it sometimes. That said, don't change Ed! Your incredibly narrow-minded-and-slanted rants are the reason this site is so much of fun :-)

P.S. Another question... is there a freeware program to add repeating alarms to PPC?

gadgetguru

12-31-2002, 06:34 AM

Without hacks means not installing PocketNav, so that means closing open apps in Pocket PC is not as easy as stated. Often, a newbie to PDA will left multiple programs running in the background without knowing it.

Also, installing apps is much harder with Pocket PC than Palm. Try installing to expansion card, it takes a long time if you have a packed expansion card.

Jason Dunn

12-31-2002, 07:34 AM

Without hacks means not installing PocketNav, so that means closing open apps in Pocket PC is not as easy as stated. Often, a newbie to PDA will left multiple programs running in the background without knowing it.

Correct. And the Pocket PC OS is supposed to manage the memory and close them when it needs to. In real practice, sometimes that works well, sometimes it doesn't. But FWIW, I ran my last Pocket PC for months without any app killer/switcher just to see what it was like - all in all, it wasn't so bad. Tapping the "X" to get the app out of the way is certainly "simple". :wink:

Also, installing apps is much harder with Pocket PC than Palm. Try installing to expansion card, it takes a long time if you have a packed expansion card.

How is the Palm any different when it comes to installing applications? Double-click on an .exe file, follow the prompts, your app is installed. Perhaps the only thing I can say definitely needs improving on the Pocket PC side of things is that it's not at all intuitive that in order to install to a memory card you need to say "NO" to the default location - it should ask you up front where you want it to go. As for it taking a long time to install on a "packed" storage card, I've never encountered that.

Jason Dunn

12-31-2002, 07:58 AM

BTW, I agree with the dissenters about this whole PalmOS is simpler "issue". PalmOS *is* simpler in many ways...

It's different. That's not the same as being "simpler". :wink:

despite the blocky, low-resolution screen

Oh come on! :roll: There's no denying that the Sony's higher resolution makes for smoother text (I really like it!), but it's a gross exaggeration to say that a 320 x 240 resolution screen is "blocky". Look at the numbers:

Sony NX70V: 153,600 pixels
Pocket PC: 76,800
Palm m515: 25,600

The high-end Sony has twice the pixels of the Pocket PC, but it also has bigger screen area. The difference between the Palm and the Pocket PC is greater than the Pocket PC and the Sony. That said, I too REALLY want to see the Pocket PC take a resolution jump because that Sony is NICE. :lol:

On a side note, I thought I read an amusing (but unflattering to Ed and PPCthoughts) post in this thread earlier today. Now it's gone. Did the author delete it? Or did one of the admins here get rid of it? If so, why? Sure, it poked fun at Ed for his frothing-at-the-mouth-bias... so what?

I deleted it. We have a simple rule here: don't flame people. If you have a point, make it. If you have a personal issue with someone on the site, take it up with them - don't drag it out into the forums. The person in question is named Michael O'Conner. He lives in San Francisco and has been dogging me and this site for nearly two years. I've banned his IP and deleted his accounts (under such clever names as "EdHisafag") more than a dozen times over a two year period. I've tried to reason with him, but he's almost pathological in his hatred of this site and the people who run it. I have no patience for his actions any longer.

I'd really like it if people like yourself would have an ounce of trust in the people who run this site instead of second guessing our actions.

P.S. Another question... is there a freeware program to add repeating alarms to PPC?

Not that I'm aware of. But if you can shell out $9.95 for Pocket Plus (www.softspb.com), you'll get that plus several other cool functions.

Pony99CA

12-31-2002, 10:58 AM

The Pocket PC does a fantastic job of multitasking, but for some reason, includes no way for you to either close an application when done or easily switch to another app. Complex? Unnecessarily so

Well, technically, Ed is incorrect. The Pocket PC OS does come with a way to close tasks -- the Memory applet's Running Programs tab allows you to Stop one selected program or all programs.

You can also use it as a task switcher, because it has an Activate button to bring a task to the foreground. Of course, I wouldn't call that "easy" -- use the Start menu to bring up Settings, click the System tab, click the Memory applet, click the Running Programs tab, select the program you want, then click Activate. <whew>

However, don't most Pocket PCs come with a task switcher? My iPAQ 3650 had QUtilities and my 3870 has iTask. Regardless, I agree that Microsoft really should include a task manager, if only to standardize it. OEMs could include their own for usability or migration purposes, but it wouldn't be almost required.

As for closing tasks, Microsoft specifically chose not to allow an "easy" means of closing tasks. They thought their smart memory manager was enough, but it seems stupid to take control from users.

Steve

gadgetguru

12-31-2002, 01:14 PM

How is the Palm any different when it comes to installing applications? Double-click on an .exe file, follow the prompts, your app is installed. Perhaps the only thing I can say definitely needs improving on the Pocket PC side of things is that it's not at all intuitive that in order to install to a memory card you need to say "NO" to the default location - it should ask you up front where you want it to go. As for it taking a long time to install on a "packed" storage card, I've never encountered that.

With Palm, you unzip the zip file and look for the .PRC program file, double click on it, press done. The next time you hotsync, it's on your Palm. Add a step if you want to install it to expansion, after double clicking, highlight the file, click on move to expansion, that's it. To uninstall, mostly you just dump the PRC and Palm will uninstall most databases associated with it.

I dunno, but on my Compaq 3630, takes sometime before the dialogue box asking you to whether install to expansion or main memory comes up after Setup launch Activesync. Maybe Pocket PC 2002 had fixed that or USB 2.0 versions minimize that waiting time, but that is my experience on my 3630.

Another thing, once installed, An app will always appear in the ALL category (and also in the unfiled category) in the default launcher. In the Pocket PC, it could be in the start menu, the games folder, or even no shortcut created at all. Not a big thing for power users, but confusing to a newbie. Had this been rectified with Pocket PC 2002? My PPC device is PPC 2000 so my opinion is based on that.

Ed Hansberry

12-31-2002, 01:51 PM

Also, is there no solution to the other PPC deficiencies I brought up?
I just reread your post. The search feature is in Start|Find. Very fast. www.pocketinformant.com also has a new search tab that is equally fast but much more powerful, allowing you to search for appointments and tasks within date ranges or limit the text search to specific fields.

Ed Hansberry

12-31-2002, 02:03 PM

With Palm, you unzip the zip file and look for the .PRC program file, double click on it, press done. The next time you hotsync, it's on your Palm. Add a step if you want to install it to expansion, after double clicking, highlight the file, click on move to expansion, that's it. To uninstall, mostly you just dump the PRC and Palm will uninstall most databases associated with it.

Palm:
1. download file
2. unzip file
3. find .prc file
4. double-click it.

Pocket PC:
1. Download file
2. Doubleclick it
3. Press OK for default location

Both have additional steps to get it to the expansion card, though you'll agree that not all apps work on expansion cards on a Palm. With the exception of Today Plugins and SIPs, just about all do on a Pocket PC.

To uninstall on a Palm:
1. Find PRC file
2. Delete PRC file

To uninstall on a Pocket PC
1. Tools|Add/Remove Programs
2. Uncheck program.

To install 10 apps on a new Palm that you had on your old Palm
1. For X = 1 to 10
2. Find PRC file
3. Double click PRC file
4. Next X

To install 10 apps on a new Pocket PC that you had on your old Pocket PC
1. Tools|Add/Remove Programs
2. Check the 10 apps in the dialog box you want to install.

I dunno, but on my Compaq 3630, takes sometime before the dialogue box asking you to whether install to expansion or main memory comes up after Setup launch Activesync. Maybe Pocket PC 2002 had fixed that or USB 2.0 versions minimize that waiting time, but that is my experience on my 3630.
The more apps you have installed, the longer this takes. It is nearly instant over WiFi or CAT5. I hope USB2 makes this faster when docked. AS on the desktop is reading all of the installed apps off of the device.

Another thing, once installed, An app will always appear in the ALL category (and also in the unfiled category) in the default launcher. In the Pocket PC, it could be in the start menu, the games folder, or even no shortcut created at all. Not a big thing for power users, but confusing to a newbie. Had this been rectified with Pocket PC 2002? My PPC device is PPC 2000 so my opinion is based on that.

I have never ever installed an app that didn't automatically create a shortcut. If it is a little utility, like PocketNav, that has no installer, yes, you have to manually create a shortcut. As for where the shortcut is installed, it is where the author wants it. Start|Settings|Menu allows you to move that around, as does File Explorer.

shawnc

12-31-2002, 02:38 PM

Dissent and debate are healthy and a large part of what keeps this site interesting. But c'mon folks, do you really think there is a definitive answer as to which platform is simpler? Of course not. The reason many people think Palm is simpler is because it is what they are used to. I remember having a debate with another advanced Excel user at work regarding which was better, using the mouse or the keyboard. Neither, it is what you are used to. It doesn't matter if it requires two "taps" to perform a function on the PPC and three "taps" to perform the same function on a Palm if the Palm user can perform those three taps quicker because he/she is used to performing them. Going from Palm to PPC requires you to re-learn some things and initially get out of your comfort zone to reap the benefits of what is clearly a better machine (IMO). I have recently purchased a Treo 300 and have had to make a similar adjustment in doing some things on it.

The point of Ed's article (I think), is not that the PPC is simpler. It is to take exception to when reviewers state that the Palm is simpler, because as Ed clearly demonstrates (as only Ed can do :ninja: ) it simply ain't true.

I have read Ed's article and converted into .lit to keep. Not to prove to Palm folks that my Dell is better, but simply because it is such a well-written piece of documentation. I have enhanced my knowledge of how to perform simple tasks dramatically as a result of Ed's diligence.

Great debate. I just don't think the point is which device is simpler. That's too subjective.

Just my opinion.

gadgetguru

12-31-2002, 03:05 PM

The more apps you have installed, the longer this takes. It is nearly instant over WiFi or CAT5. I hope USB2 makes this faster when docked. AS on the desktop is reading all of the installed apps off of the device.

I have never ever installed an app that didn't automatically create a shortcut. If it is a little utility, like PocketNav, that has no installer, yes, you have to manually create a shortcut. As for where the shortcut is installed, it is where the author wants it. Start|Settings|Menu allows you to move that around, as does File Explorer.

The longer it takes can be up to a minute (or more), and that could be frustrating, if you want to install a few apps one after after. As to your steps in installing...It's depends, most arrives as Zips too. And some as .cab, or even the CE executable itself. Some Palm programs also arrives in forms other than .prc, so guess this might be subjective, but still, the long wait for each install is what caused me to say Palm's way is simpler. Just double-click, hotsync, and you're done in seconds if you have USB and a speedy Palm device (older Palm device takes a bit longer to sync).

Pocket PC way of creating shortcuts and the start menu is more powerful than Palm's default launcher but it just not as simpler for a newbie. If the author put it in any place than usual, you might take some time searching to find it. Not all programs create shortcuts, many freewares don't, but you really can't fault them, they're freewares. Also you can't categorize apps as easily, you have to create a new folder and move the shortcuts, which is not easy on the Pocket PC itself (but a breeze via Activesync and the PC Windows Explorer).

I would say Pocket PCs have become must simpler since the clunky Win CE 2.0 days, and all thing considered, I think it's at par with Palm OS. But I won't say it's simpler (though I won't claim Palm is simpler either).

Janak Parekh

12-31-2002, 04:56 PM

scottmag

12-31-2002, 06:28 PM

Ed, they're not paying you enough.

I agree with almost everything you said, and must add, I appreciate your use of real world examples. Strangely, I suspect that IM conversation with your wife was real.

Where I do disagree is the assertion that it is all about counting taps and comparing functionality. There is something fundamentally simpler about usability. For most people the PalmOS IS going to be "simpler" to use because it will meet their modest needs cheaply and with less complexity. I think you have some stats showing the very low percentage of PDA users who install and run apps other than those on the device they buy. I'd go even further and say that a large percentage of those millions of Palm purchasers put in little more than a few contacts and some To-Do's. So they can press the To-Do button, scribble a few words, and they are done. Other than using Graffiti, that is as simple as it gets. And that's all many people will ever do. Same with adding a calendar entry. If that is the extent of a user's needs then I find it hard to believe they are better served by the more powerful device. Even if PocketPC can get almost as easy at the basic tasks it still will have some inherent additional complexity from UI widgets and controls and maybe even some ActiveSync conflict issues.

None of that is Earth-shattering stuff, but if all one needs is the very basic ability to hold a dozen phone numbers and a Honey-do list, then a $99 Zire is the way to go. (Of course that adds a bunch of taps to get to the To-Do list since Palm doesn't want to create the mass confusion caused by having more than two function buttons. :roll: )

Instead of calling the PalmOS "simpler," I'd say that it's better for simple users.

I might have detected a hint of bias in there, but otherwise a great article.

Scott

Kati Compton

12-31-2002, 06:38 PM

For what it's worth, I've had more "trouble" with the PPC than I did with the Palm. Stuff on the level of just needing a soft reset because the syncing glitched or taking the unit out of the cradle and putting it back in so the computer will recognize it properly, or a program froze so I have to reset... But I can see these problems as being more significant to someone who isn't as comfortable with technology. Those that panic at a crash.

But on the other hand, I'm also doing more things with the PPC than I did with the Palm (although to be fair to Palm I only had a IIIx, and stopped downloading programs for it long ago - I might have done more with a more modern one or if I had kept up with the IIIx...)

Deslock

12-31-2002, 07:59 PM

Deslock

12-31-2002, 08:00 PM

But c'mon folks, do you really think there is a definitive answer as to which platform is simpler? Of course not. The reason many people think Palm is simpler is because it is what they are used to.
No, I've used both platforms and Palm was quicker and easier to learn Also, even Ed wrote Palm is generally simpler:

On a scale of 1 to 10, where 1 is easy (like turning your device on) and 10 is hard (like messing with Connection Manager) many Palm features are in the 1-3 range and max out there. The Pocket PC has some in the 1 range, but more in the 2-4 range.

Again, the difference may not be too significant to us, but it is for many users. Also, I have noticed that some PIM stuff takes noticeably longer to look up on PPC.

Deslock

12-31-2002, 08:05 PM

It's different. That's not the same as being "simpler". :wink:

No, PalmOS is simpler in several ways: Many common tasks take fewer strokes or button presses to accomplish. The GUI of the programs is simpler looking (this is not always a good thing, but there’s less for the brain to process and thus this can help make it a quicker process to learn). There is no shortcut management to deal with (many PPC programs do not setup shortcuts for you). All icons on PalmOS simply appear on the main screen (you don’t have to look through sub-menus or configure icons to appear where you want to (again, this is not always a good thing, but it is simple).

Most of the above issues are insignificant (especially to us power user). But taken together, they do make PalmOS simpler for the novice consumer. I don’t understand why it’s so hard to admit that PalmOS is simpler in many ways.

Oh come on! :roll: There's no denying that the Sony's higher resolution makes for smoother text (I really like it!), but it's a gross exaggeration to say that a 320 x 240 resolution screen is "blocky".

After using the Clies for so long, PPC does look blocky. This is not an exaggeration. 320x240 is not bad, but Ed shouldn’t claim that PPC offers beautiful color screens while Palm does not, especially when Palm devices offer more resolution.

I deleted it. We have a simple rule here: don't flame people. If you have a point, make it. If you have a personal issue with someone on the site, take it up with them - don't drag it out into the forums. The person in question is named Michael O'Conner. He lives in San Francisco and has been dogging me and this site for nearly two years. I've banned his IP and deleted his accounts (under such clever names as "EdHisafag") more than a dozen times over a two year period. I've tried to reason with him, but he's almost pathological in his hatred of this site and the people who run it. I have no patience for his actions any longer.

I'd really like it if people like yourself would have an ounce of trust in the people who run this site instead of second guessing our actions.

Online, where I've seen too many poorly run websites, trust does not exist until it's earned. I'm not saying you do a poor job... on the contrary, this is an excellent website and I appreciate the work you do. But, as a site admin who participates in the forums, you're in a public position and will always be second guessed. And, I must say that I didn’t think his post was objectionable enough to delete as it wasn’t any worse than all the anti-Palm flaming that takes place here. However, if someone uses derogatory names like the one you mentioned they deserve to be banned (and I sympathize with your having to deal with jerks like that).

Additionally, many of EdH’s articles and posts are trolling (be it intentional or not). If you write a story about how overpriced the Sonys are compared to a similarly priced PPC, but leave off many of the Sony’s important features in your comparison, you’re simply spreading half-truths and you’re bound to start a flame war. Like this one:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3826

When you ended that discussion, you complained that Palm user trolls were at fault for turning the discussion into another Palm vs PPC thread. With the way Ed’s story was written, *of course* it was going to turn into a flamewar. Also, many points brought up by the Palm users were valid... to be honest, I was a little shocked that you closed the discussion.

Similarly, Ed left out many details in his write-up this time. He wrote about PPC’s multitasking advantages, but left out that Palm switches between apps *instantly* while PPC has lag (something that most PPC users I know find to be very annoying). He wrote about alarms, but left out that Palm does repeating alarms. He wrote about integration, but left off PPC’s need to reformat Excel and Word documents (Palm is more seamless). He wrote about Word completion, but left off that Palm does this in PIM fields. He also made a few mistakes (like stating that X needs 2 strokes in graffiti), though that’s understandable with such a long article.

I’m not trying to harass Ed, but if he writes an article that is so slanted, he has to expect some criticism. At the end of the day, it’s great that there are all these cool gadgets. This partisan bickering serves no purpose… PalmOS and PPC devices should be looked at as tools and entertainment devices. Both do some things better then the other. Why can't we all just get along?

Ed Hansberry

12-31-2002, 08:06 PM

Does Start/Find work with 3rd party programs like HPCNotes or Listpro? That was my concern… I tried pocket informant but it runs agonizingly slow.
Don't know about HPCNotes. It doesn't work with ListPro. Listpro files are binary. I wonder if Iliumsoft could write a filter to plug into the Start|Find app?

It does work with Excel/Word files.

BTW, ListPro can search through all lists within a file, so if you know it is a Listpro item, you can do it there.

Ed Hansberry

12-31-2002, 08:10 PM

Also, I have noticed that some PIM stuff takes noticeably longer to look up on PPC.
I guess that depends on the device. I have 400+ contacts (not many by some standards) and looked up a name. The first result was returned instantaneously and the other 4 were before I could finish reading what the first one was. If it returns results faster than I can process the information, that is fast enough for me. :) iPAQ 3975.

Ed Hansberry

12-31-2002, 08:13 PM

Deslock

12-31-2002, 08:54 PM

Similarly, Ed left out many details in his write-up this time. He wrote about PPC’s multitasking advantages, but left out that Palm switches between apps *instantly* while PPC has lag (something that most PPC users I know find to be very annoying).
Not true. I was messing with Paint on a Clie 320. I tried to launch contacts. It demanded that I save the file or abandon it first. Not true multitiasking, required another click. The PPC would just launch Contacts.
That's the only Palm app I've used that doesn't let you switch tasks without saving your work. Maybe there are more, but in general, Palm apps switch instantly. Some PPC apps switch quickly, but some do not and some don't even let you switch to another app (like 3D Star Fighter Pilot and Warring States). With the Clie's Paint program, I can quickly hit Save. On some PPC apps, I have to go through the application's custom menu to get to the Exit button (and sometimes I have to wait for the game to finish loading its level before even being able to do this), click it, wait for the app to clear (sometimes requiring me to wait for some sort of splash screen advertisement) and then I can start the desired program.

If I quickly need to jot something down, this is a huge inconvenience that PPC's multitasking doesn't prevent. Is there a utility to fix this problem?

Scott R

01-01-2003, 01:18 AM

I've been staying away for some time now, but couldn't resist this thread. I think Ed came across a bit more fair than usual, but I thought I'd add a few comments...

First, I think it's important to understand just what the word "simple" means. It encompasses the area of usability and, contrary to common misconception, usability does not equal ease of use. Ease of use is one aspect of usability. Usability also includes efficiency. I make these points because of the common argument against the Palm OS's usability because of "having to learn Graffiti." If I'm a usability engineer who is designing the GUI for an ATM, for example, ease of use for a new user would of higher importance than efficiency for a skilled user. With PDAs, an initial learning curve is acceptable if it means long term efficiency gains. Such is the case with Graffiti. Further in Graffiti's defense, it's worth noting that Graffiti's alphabet is a singlestroke alphabet which results in entering characters faster than entering them using the Roman characters.

Similarly, it's more important to be able to complete commonly used tasks quickly than it is to complete infrequently used tasks quickly. So, for example, more weight would be given to the benefit of adding a new contact than would be for uninstalling an application.

It's also important to note that usability can vary from one application to another, and so it's important for a prospective buyer to think about what applications they anticipate using the device for primarily. The Palm OS was originally designed around disconnected (non-wireless) PIM and I believe that it still excels in those areas. With the advent of wireless, the multitasking ability of the PPC becomes more significant. If you have a need for using your PDA as a mini-laptop (editing Word and Excel documents), the lack of native file format compatibility becomes a detriment on the Palm but, again, for people who are using their PDA primarily for PIM, it's of little significance. I point this out because when a reviewer makes a comment along the lines of "the Palm is simpler for most users" he's probably making the (correct, IMO) assumption that "most users" purchase a PDA for PIM purposes, so the advantages of the PPC in non-PIM areas is of less significance for that group of users.

Additionally, I took a quick look at the "number of taps" article that was linked to and found it to be intelligently written and the data to be quite realistic. This shouldn't come as a surprise to Ed because we've actually had the "number of taps" argument in the past. The only reason I can see for people bashing it for being biased is because this is a PPC enthusiast site. But I think that excuse is pretty lame, quite honestly. What good does it do anyone to discount real advantages to an alternative PDA OS? Some folks at MS are presumably working diligently at the next version of the PPC OS. I'd want them to be taking a honest look at some of these things so that they could implement them into their own OS.

Now, with all that said, let me add some specific comments to some of the points that Ed made:

1) Categories. Ed points out that creating separate categories for Contacts, To-Dos, and Notes on a Palm are not consistent. I would argue that while this may appear to be a negative to a new user, this is, in fact, the right way to do it. In my address book (aka Contacts), I have categories for Family, Friends, Work, and Businesses. These categories would not make sense in the Notes or To-Do apps. Instead, for Notes, I might have categories like Personal, Work, and Church. Because these are stored separately across the applications, I don't see the 15 category limit as limiting.

2) Moving from field to field. Ed mentions that in editing Contacts on the Palm you have to move the stylus up to a couple of inches to tap on the next field. This doesn't bother me, but for those it does, it's worth mentioning that you can use the single-stroke down-up to move to the next field (or single-stroke up-down to move to the previous field).

3) Ed mentions the advantage of having a Work Address and other advanced Outlook fields. He acknowledges the Custom fields on the Palm but then states that one might use Custom 1 for one person's URL and the same Custom 1 for another person's Assistant's name. I'd be surprised if this is how most Palm users would do this sort of thing. Instead, I would decide which other types of fields I would most often need. So, for me, I have my Custom 1 field renamed as "Birthday." No matter whose contact record I go into, it is always labeled as "Birthday" (note that the built-in birthday field of the PPC is an advantage here because it automatically notifies me in the calendar whereas I have to use a free 3rd party app for similar functionality on my Palm). For Ed, he might rename one of his custom fields "Company Phone Number." Finally, it's worth mentioning that all of the fields on the Palm OS are multi-line capable. So, in some cases, I've been known to put someone's multiple email addresses (with line breaks) in a single "email" field.

4) Ed talks about the name field being "smart." It is exactly this "smartness" that has caused me aggrivation in the past. Try entering a company name that begins with a lowercase letter. It "smartly" assumes that you want it uppercase and forces it as such.

5) Regarding beaming. It's worth noting that you can beam an application from Palm to Palm (obviously, licenced apps may not allow this or, in many clever instances, will beam the app in trial period mode). This adds to the "simple" concept as well, because it means that I can easily share apps with other Palm users. You don't need to install an app via the desktop.

6) Another usability issue of major importance is the fact that the PPC will, despite its higher resolution, often show less data (e.g. - in the list mode of the Contacts app). A name/phone number which shows in full on a Palm, may be truncated with "..." on the PPC. Furthermore, with really long names, on the Palm you can tap once on the entry, bringing you to the "summary" view where long lines will be wrapped. Whereas on the PPC, you may have to go all the way to edit mode, tap on the actual field, and scroll all the way to the right to see the full data (e.g. - a long phone number with extension).

7) Jumping back to the Contacts app and the issue of there being less fields on the Palm, again I think this adds to the usability. Yes, there may be some specific fields that would be nice to have for some users, but the Palm counters this issue by offering the four Custom fields. On the PPC in Contact "edit" mode, I have to scroll down through three screens because of all of the fields it offers, many of which I could care less about (anyone out there use "Radio tel" for anything?).

You covered this in your comments, but I wanted to stress it further: I think that task switching must become a part of the core GUI on the PPC. I'll add here that I disagree with the majority out there who think that they need a "close" button that closes. I think they should get rid of that button altogether and replace it with a different symbol which acts exactly like PocketNav. In the mean time, for anyone recommending a PPC to a new user, do them a favor and tell them to immediately download and install PocketNav.

Scott

Ed Hansberry

01-01-2003, 01:34 AM

I've been staying away for some time now, but couldn't resist this thread. I think Ed came across a bit more fair than usual, but I thought I'd add a few comments...
Scoooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeee! :lol:

2) Moving from field to field. Ed mentions that in editing Contacts on the Palm you have to move the stylus up to a couple of inches to tap on the next field. This doesn't bother me, but for those it does, it's worth mentioning that you can use the single-stroke down-up to move to the next field (or single-stroke up-down to move to the previous field).

I asked 3 Palm users about this, one a long time Palm fan. None of them had a clue how to do this. Thanks.

So, in some cases, I've been known to put someone's multiple email addresses (with line breaks) in a single "email" field.
So, when you tap on their name in an email, does it insert all of their addresses in the TO field?

5) Regarding beaming. It's worth noting that you can beam an application from Palm to Palm (obviously, licenced apps may not allow this or, in many clever instances, will beam the app in trial period mode). This adds to the "simple" concept as well, because it means that I can easily share apps with other Palm users. You don't need to install an app via the desktop.
Basic .exe files, like PocketNav can be beamed too. As can .CAB install files. Handango has recently started allowing users to log into their Handango account via Pocket PCs and download .CAB files directly. :)

Still, it would be nice if, from my device, I could simply beam Pocket Informant to a friend, where it would install itself in the trial period as if he had downloaded it himself.

6) Another usability issue of major importance is the fact that the PPC will, despite its higher resolution, often show less data (e.g. - in the list mode of the Contacts app). A name/phone number which shows in full on a Palm, may be truncated with "..." on the PPC. Furthermore, with really long names, on the Palm you can tap once on the entry, bringing you to the "summary" view where long lines will be wrapped. Whereas on the PPC, you may have to go all the way to edit mode, tap on the actual field, and scroll all the way to the right to see the full data (e.g. - a long phone number with extension).
This wasn't the case with PPC 2000. PPC 2002 broke this in a big way. :(

On the PPC in Contact "edit" mode, I have to scroll down through three screens because of all of the fields it offers, many of which I could care less about (anyone out there use "Radio tel" for anything?).
Yeah. I may sneak the "company number" in here. ;)

You covered this in your comments, but I wanted to stress it further: I think that task switching must become a part of the core GUI on the PPC. I'll add here that I disagree with the majority out there who think that they need a "close" button that closes. I think they should get rid of that button altogether and replace it with a different symbol which acts exactly like PocketNav. In the mean time, for anyone recommending a PPC to a new user, do them a favor and tell them to immediately download and install PocketNav.
Amen.

Scott R

01-01-2003, 02:14 AM

So, when you tap on their name in an email, does it insert all of their addresses in the TO field?
I'd imagine so. It definitely messes things up on my Samsung i300 (Palm smartphone) if I try to enter multiple phone numbers in one field and try to dial it. :( But for a basic user who doesn't sync email or own a smartphone, it offers some nice flexibility.

This wasn't the case with PPC 2000. PPC 2002 broke this in a big way. :(
Is it worse in PPC 2002? I'm speaking from my experience with my iPaq 3630 running PPC 2000.

Scott

Ed Hansberry

01-01-2003, 02:20 AM

This wasn't the case with PPC 2000. PPC 2002 broke this in a big way. :(
Is it worse in PPC 2002? I'm speaking from my experience with my iPaq 3630 running PPC 2000.
Yeah, it is now bold, which truncates an additional number or two. If you have the number in there unformatted, it is fine, but if it is "+1 (555) 555-5555" the last 3 5's are missing. If the + and parens are gone, it is OK, but Outlook on the desktop automatically does this.

Janak Parekh

01-01-2003, 02:32 AM

I asked 3 Palm users about this, one a long time Palm fan. None of them had a clue how to do this. Thanks.
You obviously forgot to ask Scott. ;)

Amen.
Wow, the two of you agree about something. 8O Must be the jovial mood right before the ball drop. :)

--janak

Philip Colmer

01-01-2003, 10:52 AM

Another question I have about this journalist(?), was this in the editorial section or an article. If an editorial, than an opinion is valid. If an article, my feeling is that his opinion has no place. Why not do the true journalistic thing by presenting facts and letting the reader make up their own mind. As a reader, I believe I am intelligent enough to form an opinion without some one telling me what I should think. :evil:.

The writer's piece is held under the Commentary section of eWeek, which I would take to mean that this is his opinion.

He has now posted a follow-up:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,798101,00.asp

--Philip

mookie123

01-01-2003, 06:05 PM

I put my money that there is actually more Axim out there than Tungsten if not right now, in about 2 weeks.

ux4484

01-02-2003, 07:26 PM

Ed Hansberry

01-02-2003, 08:11 PM

Palm has sold ALOT of Tungstens, I'd give it a bit more time than that, but yes they will pass them.
Please quantify. Was that sales to stores or sell through to consumers?

ux4484

01-02-2003, 09:05 PM

sorry Ed, didn't mean to philosophize on your time.
Being that Palms' numbers are up (as they claim from the TT and Zire release), and they've had a longer release to a much larger customer base (that's established not new customers): I can't Imagine that Dell has shipped more Axims since Dec 15th (or was that really the 18th :wink: ) than TT's that have been put in the hands of CONSUMERS.
I also can't imagine that the Zire did most of the Palm recovery work :roll:.

Funny that you jumped right on this, yet you never responded satisfactorially on the hack/task switcher comment I posed.

Ed Hansberry

01-02-2003, 09:14 PM

Funny that you jumped right on this, yet you never responded satisfactorially on the hack/task switcher comment I posed.
I may have missed it or didn't have the answer. What was the question again? There are over 100 posts in this now. BTW, don't think for a second I am going to defend the default task switching of the Pocket PC. :? One of the first things I install on a new device is PocketNav.

And I didn't jump right on it. I get email notifications for when my threads are updated. Sometimes I read then reply within minutes, othertimes, hours or the next day. :)

ux4484

01-02-2003, 09:24 PM

Janak Parekh

01-02-2003, 09:33 PM

On this "fix" subject I point out your statement on multitasking on the PPC: "Now, I admit I used Pocket Nav, a freeware task switcher. The Pocket PC does a fantastic job of multitasking, but for some reason, includes no way for you to either close an application when done or easily switch to another app. Complex? Unnecessarily so. Easy to fix on the Pocket PC?"
I'll give a stab at this ;) The irony is, I find no trouble with the built-in switching semantics on the PPC. If you click start, most likely a running app is one of the 5 MRU icons on the top of the menu. Now, closing is entirely another answer, but if all you're using the PPC for is the basic Pocket Outlook apps, then you don't really need to close them.

--janak

Ed Hansberry

01-02-2003, 09:45 PM

this one: http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=54567&highlight=#54567

and further I furtherd the point in this one (albiet twas not directed to you): http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=54804&highlight=#54804
Oh, because it is apples and oranges.

How do you hack a PDA to allow screen navigation from the input pad?
Pocket PC: You don't. It is part of the default OS and application.
Palm: You have to install a hack.

How do you enable basic task switching and multitasking on a PDA?
Pocket PC: You don't, it is built in. Using the MRU or the Start Menu, you can switch in 2-3 taps, or with a button press if the desired app is assigned to a button.
Palm: You don't, it is built in. Using the Home key you can launch any app you want with another 1-2 taps, or with a button press if the desired app is assigned to a button.

How do you enable advanced task switching and multitasking on a PDA?
Pocket PC: PocketNav, WisBAR and a few other free or inexpensive task switchers are readily available.
Palm: You don't. The OS is incapable of doing this.

So, the difference is, one was onscreen navigation via the keyboard. The PPC does it natively, the Palm doesn't. The other was advanced task switching. The PPC has to be hacked. The Palm can't do it period.

ux4484

01-02-2003, 11:57 PM

ed, I'll have to agree to disagree.

I see grafitti hacks (and hacks in general) enabling grafitti to be a much more useful and productive tool the same as PocketNav (and WISBar) making task switching and closing apps more useful and productive. Both services are native to their own OS, and both have shortcomings, and both require a third party fix to make it livable for most.

Lightpen

01-03-2003, 02:49 AM

I was impressed, Ed, with your coverage of both platforms. Thanks for taking the time to write it. But I have to say that something feels missing. I have had numerous Palms all the way back to my original 1000 model. I have a Toshiba under one of their relabels and two aspects were not touched on in your article on ease of use.

1) I recently lost all my data when Toshiba went to zero juice. AND I had logged zero hours of use on it from a full charge. It was just in my briefcase for a week plus. The only way around this is I realize is that the PPC devices --- due to their battery lust --- MUST be cradled for recharge every night (I need routines) or oops! Not easy. A pain in the body parts.

2) I use and am facile with graffiti. I write much quickly and the palm device gets the letters correct nearly every time. But, with my Toshiba using the Graffiti emulator, I have to slow way down and then there are more mistakes anyway. The PPC is quirky about getting the letters right the first time, and it hates it when I speed up. I don't know why that is, but it makes the Toshiba not easy.

Also: you commented about word completion:
I have mine set to show 3 words after 2 characters. Say you want to write the word "meeting" when composing an email. On the Pocket PC, write "mee" and you are offered "meets", "meeting" and "meetings".

I have my Toshiba set for that too, but the seletion box for three words is open only a microsecond before it disappears, then I have to write it in anyway. Useless feature. The selection box should stay open until I have chosen the word. Jeeesh.

All the same the sheer horsepower of the PPC unit is a continual seduction. I originally was hoping to NEVER buy another desktop computer and go PPC instead. That is what drew me to the Toshiba. Had to abandon that dream. It complicated my life before thinking further about dumping the desktop machine.

What I found was that my life is made simple by a device I do not have to think much about, and unfortunately that means Palm, until at least the battery problem of the PPC industry is solved. So I agree with Timothy Rapson: The PDA world is not ready for most people.

One parting thought: Someone made the comment that the "end is near for Palm." While I don't know that is so, I guess that such an end will occur the very moment that your PPC will go a month, hell I would settle for 15 days before recharging.

Janak Parekh

01-03-2003, 03:14 AM

One parting thought: Someone made the comment that the "end is near for Palm." While I don't know that is so, I guess that such an end will occur the very moment that your PPC will go a month, hell I would settle for 15 days before recharging.
You realize most modern Palms (or Sony units) won't go that long either, eh? Excepting the shelf life bit... yes, Pocket PC's are annoying that way. They're units designed to be used, not to be collecting dust. ;)

--janak

Ed Hansberry

01-03-2003, 05:10 AM

1) I recently lost all my data when Toshiba went to zero juice. AND I had logged zero hours of use on it from a full charge. It was just in my briefcase for a week plus. The only way around this is I realize is that the PPC devices --- due to their battery lust --- MUST be cradled for recharge every night (I need routines) or oops! Not easy. A pain in the body parts.

Yeah, but it is sort of like a cell phone. Even if you don't use it for 3-4 days, it'll run down. FWIW, the new ARM based PalmOS devices act in a similar way.
Also: you commented about word completion:
I have mine set to show 3 words after 2 characters. Say you want to write the word "meeting" when composing an email. On the Pocket PC, write "mee" and you are offered "meets", "meeting" and "meetings".

I have my Toshiba set for that too, but the seletion box for three words is open only a microsecond before it disappears, then I have to write it in anyway. Useless feature. The selection box should stay open until I have chosen the word. Jeeesh.

Well, it is more than a microsecond. It is closer to 1-1.5 seconds. On the PPC 2000 it actually did stay until you selected, and it was a major pain. If you were filling out a form or some box, you might type in some letters, the popup would show your words and obscure the OK box. User feedback changed that behavior, and I like it. :)

One parting thought: Someone made the comment that the "end is near for Palm." While I don't know that is so, I guess that such an end will occur the very moment that your PPC will go a month, hell I would settle for 15 days before recharging.

Yup. You should definitely get the device that works best for you. :)

Pony99CA

01-03-2003, 07:30 AM

Also: you commented about word completion:
I have mine set to show 3 words after 2 characters. Say you want to write the word "meeting" when composing an email. On the Pocket PC, write "mee" and you are offered "meets", "meeting" and "meetings".

I have my Toshiba set for that too, but the seletion box for three words is open only a microsecond before it disappears, then I have to write it in anyway. Useless feature. The selection box should stay open until I have chosen the word. Jeeesh.

Well, it is more than a microsecond. It is closer to 1-1.5 seconds. On the PPC 2000 it actually did stay until you selected, and it was a major pain. If you were filling out a form or some box, you might type in some letters, the popup would show your words and obscure the OK box. User feedback changed that behavior, and I like it. :)

I didn't like the suggestions covering the text I was typing, but I would like to have the suggestions stay up a bit longer. Perhaps Microsoft could add an entry on the Word Completion tab of the Input settings applet like Show suggestions for N seconds (where N is a drop-down list with reasonable settings). There's certainly room for it (at least on my iPAQ 3870's Input applet).

That said, it's fairly easy to work around the disappearance -- backspace, retype the last letter and you'll get the word completion suggestions again.

Steve

Jorgen

01-03-2003, 11:11 AM

I own a couple of PPC's which I use for certain things and enjoy very much reading PocketPCThoughts. However, some of the articles are just biased and this one here is a good example. All PDA operating systems have their good and bad sides and I don't understand why the PPC users desparately have to try to prove (preach) that PPC's are best at everything (insecurity?); yes, doing so in informal messages in the forums is OK andsometimes even fun, but a real *article* should carry more tenure.

What system is best depends on ones personal likings and what one want to use a PDA for. Personally I find the Palm system faster and easier in use and more natural (to me Iambic Agendus beats anything made for any PDA), not to mention - if I were to be nasty [and I am :)] - that DocsToGo unlike PocketWord can read all my MS Word files. PPC's have their good sides too (do I have to list them in this forum?), which is why I keep buying them. But - and I hope you sit down - none of them are perfect!

In case you disagree with the above, you are most welcome to do so. :)

Happy New Year.
Jorgen

ux4484

01-03-2003, 04:29 PM

Perhaps Microsoft could add an entry on the Word Completion tab of the Input settings applet like Show suggestions for N seconds (where N is a drop-down list with reasonable settings). There's certainly room for it (at least on my iPAQ 3870's Input applet).

That said, it's fairly easy to work around the disappearance -- backspace, retype the last letter and you'll get the word completion suggestions again.

Steve

Sounds like a hack is needed :D :D :D

you can also drag the stylus to the text box from the letter you're entering and the box will stay open (it seems the 1 second countdown begins when you remove the stylus from the screen to start the next letter)

Janak Parekh

01-03-2003, 04:48 PM

I own a couple of PPC's which I use for certain things and enjoy very much reading PocketPCThoughts. However, some of the articles are just biased and this one here is a good example. All PDA operating systems have their good and bad sides and I don't understand why the PPC users desparately have to try to prove (preach) that PPC's are best at everything (insecurity?); yes, doing so in informal messages in the forums is OK andsometimes even fun, but a real *article* should carry more tenure.
Jorgen, this is an opinion piece, in the THOUGHT forum (although Ed might say his word is gospel ;)). His point is that people just dismiss Pocket PC's as being more complex without actually bothering to learn the platform and it's virtues. It doesn't say that Palm isn't simple. Why bother? Because it's the #1 thing discussed on handheld webboards, day in, day out. This article is incredibly useful to me: I can point it out to people who use that argument to just open their eyes, if they're open-minded, just a little bit.

As for bias, of course we're biased. What would you expect from a site called Pocket PC Thoughts? We're here because we love to discuss and use our Pocket PC's, and think it's a great platform for the stuff we do.

--janak

Jason Dunn

01-04-2003, 03:58 AM

I own a couple of PPC's which I use for certain things and enjoy very much reading PocketPCThoughts. However, some of the articles are just biased and this one here is a good example. All PDA operating systems have their good and bad sides and I don't understand why the PPC users desparately have to try to prove (preach) that PPC's are best at everything (insecurity?); yes, doing so in informal messages in the forums is OK andsometimes even fun, but a real *article* should carry more tenure.

Jorgen, have you ever heard people say that in order to do video editing, you need to have a Mac? I hear that all the time, and when I wrote a book about how to work with video on PC, I wasn't doing it because I was insecure. I did it because the premise that you need a Mac is simply false. Can you work with digital video on Mac? Yes. Can you work with digital video on a PC? Yes. Either one will do the job, and ultimately the choice will come down to personal preference, price, what your friends are using, etc.

See a parallel here Jorgen?

Ed's point wasn't to say that Palm was worse than a Pocket PC, or that Palms weren't easy to use. His point was that it's a media myth that Palms are "simpler" - that's it. There are many reasons to buy Palm, and there are many reasons to buy Pocket PC. Both are viable PDAs. If you give it a fair read you'll see that in some tests the Palm is better, in others the Pocket PC is better.

All in all it's a well balanced article and your criticisms are unwarranted.

Timothy Rapson

01-04-2003, 04:03 PM

I was impressed, Ed, with your coverage of both platforms. So I agree with Timothy Rapson: The PDA world is not ready for most people.

One parting thought: Someone made the comment that the "end is near for Palm." While I don't know that is so, I guess that such an end will occur the very moment that your PPC will go a month, hell I would settle for 15 days before recharging.

Wow, thanks.

No one here has ever agreed with me before! Actually, I think that the PDA world would have been much farther ahead if PSION had succeeded with Quartz. That dream gone, I think cell phones have the future and both Palm and PPC are going to be gone in a couple of years. Sad.

Pony99CA

01-05-2003, 06:51 AM

All PDA operating systems have their good and bad sides and I don't understand why the PPC users desparately have to try to prove (preach) that PPC's are best at everything (insecurity?); yes, doing so in informal messages in the forums is OK andsometimes even fun, but a real *article* should carry more tenure.

To add to what Jason and others have said, Ed certainly was not trying to prove that the Pocket PC was best at everything. His point was that it wasn't as complicated as many people seemed to think, and that the claims of Palms being "simpler" are (often) unjustified.

I think Ed was actually trying to be fairly unbiased, and he pointed out where the Palm was simpler in various places, too.

Steve

Job

01-05-2003, 07:26 PM

Well said, Steve.

Jason Dunn

01-07-2003, 05:08 PM

I've deleted the off-topic posts in the latter part of this thread and edited my "controversial" post. Let's keep this on topic please - thanks!

Deslock

01-15-2003, 02:41 PM

I wasn’t going to bother commenting in this article again as at 11 pages it’s probably beyond its usefulness. However, since it’s still linked to from the top of the ppcthoughts homepage, I guess the thread isn’t dead. Firstly, I want to reiterate that my purpose is not to harass anyone or raise people’s blood pressure. I may make a teasing comment now and then, but I try to not to go overboard. IMHO, getting pulled into flamewars is generally a waste of time and we should all make an effort to keep posts clean, positive, and informative. Additionally, I like ppcthoughts and appreciate the work that goes into running a site like this. I also currently own and use an HP1910.

A few pages ago I brought up many half-truths, omissions, and errors in Ed’s article. I was criticized for doing this and was told that this is a biased site and I should go elsewhere if I can’t handle that. However, most of my points (which I think were valid and rational) went unanswered. And several pages later, the article is again being described as balanced. To be blunt, the fact that my points were not replied to makes wonder if it’s because no one has thought of decent arguments to counter them. Which is fine… but when “the article is balanced” comments continue to be made, I begin to think that some people here may be in denial.

Lastly, I don’t understand why people are getting bent out of shape over this. Isn’t the idea behind having a forum to learn more through the exchange of ideas? If I politely and logically present effective and relevant arguments, aren’t I adding to the quality of the discussion? It is called Pocket PC *Thoughts* after all.

Ed Hansberry

01-15-2003, 03:23 PM

Deslock

01-15-2003, 07:03 PM

Can you summarize those for me? Going back through your 5-6 posts in this thread then finding what was and wasn't replied to is a bit much in this thread with well over 100 replies. I'll be happy to take a stab at your remaining questions. :D
Actually, I think you and Jason are the only people who replied to any my points, and his only specific response that I remember was that I shouldn't call 320x240 blocky - see page 8 -. Otherwise, here are some excerpts from my posts:

Deslock wrote
I sometimes wrote down little pieces of info in the Palm's Address Book, Todo List, Memo, Datebook, or Hi-note. I never had to worry where I wrote something down because the Palm's search function was quick and searched through everything. Am I going to lose that functionality with PPC?"

You did respond that I should try HPCNotes, but it doesn't provide the easy universal Find that Palm offers. I have played with several programs and currently my workaround is to use ListPro... I need to do seperate searches for stuff in PIM vs stuff in ListPro. Additionally, I haven't found anyway to search a specified groups of apps in PPC, and it takes a long time to so a global search, which is very fast on the Palm. I had a freeware program on the Palm that let me exclude certain program databases from searches... does something like that exist for PPC? Basically, I just want to search, say, all PIM apps. Or all PIM apps + Word docs.

Deslock wrote
Online, where I've seen too many poorly run websites, trust does not exist until it's earned. I'm not saying you do a poor job... on the contrary, this is an excellent website and I appreciate the work you do. But, as a site admin who participates in the forums, you're in a public position and will always be second guessed. And, I must say that I didn’t think his post was objectionable enough to delete as it wasn’t any worse than all the anti-Palm flaming that takes place here. However, if someone uses derogatory names like the one you mentioned they deserve to be banned (and I sympathize with your having to deal with jerks like that).

Additionally, many of EdH’s articles and posts are trolling (be it intentional or not). If you write a story about how overpriced the Sonys are compared to a similarly priced PPC, but leave off many of the Sony’s important features in your comparison, you’re simply spreading half-truths and you’re bound to start a flame war. Like this one:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3826

When you ended that discussion, you complained that Palm user trolls were at fault for turning the discussion into another Palm vs PPC thread. With the way Ed’s story was written, *of course* it was going to turn into a flamewar. Also, many points brought up by the Palm users were valid... to be honest, I was a little shocked that you closed the discussion.

Similarly, Ed left out many details in his write-up this time. He wrote about PPC’s multitasking advantages, but left out that Palm switches between apps *instantly* while PPC has lag (something that most PPC users I know find to be very annoying). He wrote about alarms, but left out that Palm does repeating alarms. He wrote about integration, but left off PPC’s need to reformat Excel and Word documents (Palm is more seamless). He wrote about Word completion, but left off that Palm does this in PIM fields. He also made a few mistakes (like stating that X needs 2 strokes in graffiti), though that’s understandable with such a long article.

I’m not trying to harass Ed, but if he writes an article that is so slanted, he has to expect some criticism. At the end of the day, it’s great that there are all these cool gadgets. This partisan bickering serves no purpose… PalmOS and PPC devices should be looked at as tools and entertainment devices. Both do some things better then the other.
You already responded about apps switching instantly... the first post on page 9 has my reply to your response about this. I don't think my other points were responded to.

Additionally, here are a few more questions:

1) There appears to be no freeware program that implements repeating alarms. Any recommendation for something that's reliable and reasonably priced?

2) I asked this in another thread: Is there a way to adjust volume when running games that don't have volume control and don't let you switch apps? This seems to be common with many PPC games, and exiting out and restarting game is time consuming. With PalmOS, I could enter a couple strokes with the stylus while running *any* program and popup a DA-app to adjust volume settings. For those who aren’t familiar with PalmOS’ DA-apps, they provided multitasking like-functionality (though it was really still task switching) by running various utilities in pop-up windows. I ran DA-apps for adjusting volume, pasting the date (or date and time), popping up a calculator, popping up a conversion program, popping up and MP3 player, etc... They all ran instantly. Is there a DA-Apps type program for PPC?

3) Can I specify that alarms and notifications still sound, but all other apps are muted? With Palm, I could simply check different boxes for Alarm Sound, System Sound, and Game Sound. With PPC, I can turn of System Sounds, but if I go into a game that doesn't have its own sound controls, I need to disable sound (before starting the game in some cases) and re-enable it after the game so my alarms go off. Or maybe I missed a setting somewhere?

4) This is more of a comment. Even at 300 MHz, I've noticed that many apps still are pokey at populating drop-down lists (such as "Personal Health" and "Diet Tracker"). The problem here is that some tasks that PalmOS assisted me with now take so long with PPC that using the PPC becomes a task itself. That's a big problem for people who aren't gadget freaks like us.

Jason Dunn

01-15-2003, 07:47 PM

I'm sure Ed will take a stab at your questions, but everything you raise (with the exception of the Find feature perhaps) is a matter of third party software. Ed's article was based on an "out of box" experience, because trying to compare everything third party app out there and how it makes/breaks the PDA experience would be almost impossible. You're not comparing a Palm to a Pocket PC - you're comparing your "fully-loaded and tweaked just the way you want it" Palm to a Pocket PC, and wondering why it doesn't function exactly like your Palm. A bit silly isn't it?

1) There appears to be no freeware program that implements repeating alarms. Any recommendation for something that's reliable and reasonably priced?

There is no freeware program to do this. Pocket Plus from Spb software is $9.95 and adds quite a bit of functionality to your Pocket PC, including repeating alarms. I also work for them. :wink:

2) I asked this in another thread: Is there a way to adjust volume when running games that don't have volume control and don't let you switch apps?

No. Your scenario doesn't make sense to me anyway - why would you need all those independent volume controls? What's "simple" about that? :? To each his own, but the answer is still "no". :wink:

3) Can I specify that alarms and notifications still sound, but all other apps are muted? With Palm, I could simply check different boxes for Alarm Sound, System Sound, and Game Sound. With PPC, I can turn of System Sounds, but if I go into a game that doesn't have its own sound controls, I need to disable sound (before starting the game in some cases) and re-enable it after the game so my alarms go off. Or maybe I missed a setting somewhere?

That would be a problem with a poorly-designed application I suppose. Again, I don't get your scenario here - you're saying that you'd want to play a game with no audio turned on, but you'd still want your alarms to make noise? Why? You're staring right at the device, so why do you need an audible warning? If you don't want game sounds, why would you want alarm sounds - isn't a sound a sound?

4) This is more of a comment. Even at 300 MHz, I've noticed that many apps still are pokey at populating drop-down lists (such as "Personal Health" and "Diet Tracker").

That would be a problem with a poorly-designed application (or huge amounts of data), but there are certainly things that need to happen on the Pocket PC platform to improve the overall speed.

I use this emoticon sparingly, but it really applies here: :roll:

This is kind of like discussing Windows XP with a Mac user - even if you're asking questions, they're all loaded because you already know the answer, and we know you're just pretending and aren't interested in switching. :lol: It's like me going to a Saturn dealership and asking to see the model with a V-12 engine, then feigning surprise when they don't have one. "Oh, wow, really?? My Jaguar has one you see..." :lol:

If you're happy with your Palm, that's great. But you haven't really proven anything about Palm being "simpler to use" than the Pocket PC. Most of your examples/questions are esoteric at best, trollish at worst.

PS - I don't know why you included a big quote about my integrity on this site, but if you expect to bait me into defending the reason why a post was deleted yet again, you're not going to be successful. Stick to the discussion at hand, not how I run the site, ok? Thanks.

Ed Hansberry

01-15-2003, 08:30 PM

You did respond that I should try HPCNotes, but it doesn't provide the easy universal Find that Palm offers. I have played with several programs and currently my workaround is to use ListPro... I need to do seperate searches for stuff in PIM vs stuff in ListPro. Additionally, I haven't found anyway to search a specified groups of apps in PPC, and it takes a long time to so a global search, which is very fast on the Palm. I had a freeware program on the Palm that let me exclude certain program databases from searches... does something like that exist for PPC? Basically, I just want to search, say, all PIM apps. Or all PIM apps + Word docs.
The Start|Find will search all PIM and Pocket PC native documents - text, word, excel, etc. You can limit it to one, say just contacts or just tasks, but not all PIM and Word. As for speed? I just searched for a word in "All Data" which for me is 425 contacts, 72 tasks, 878KB of emails and related attachments, dozens of appointments (not sure how to easily count appointments on the PPC or Outlook since I just sync 12 weeks back and forever into the future), 5.7MB of My Docs and miscellaneous notes. Took 13 seconds. Searched for that same thing in just Contacts, just Tasks and just appointments - each one was nearly instant. If Palm can search that 6-7MB of total data instantly, that is impressive. I suspect though that it can't, as few Palms have 6-7MB of personal data. Only recently have Palms been coming out with more than 8MB of RAM.

No, I don't know of a search utility availble. But that, IMHO says something. You are the first one I've seen ask for one in a loooooooong time - since PPC was released. There was one for the older HPCs and Palm-sized PCs but it is dead as Start|Find is up to the task for the vast majority of people. Is Start|Find the best there is? No. And if Palm can allow you to search multiple categories, (Tasks, Contacts, Data) while eliminating others (Appointments, Notes, Memos) that's pretty cool. I'll say it never occurred to me to try that though, so I'm not missing it.

Deslock wrote
Online, where I've seen too many poorly run websites, trust does not exist until it's earned. I'm not saying you do a poor job... on the contrary, this is an excellent website and I appreciate the work you do. But, as a site admin who participates in the forums, you're in a public position and will always be second guessed. And, I must say that I didn’t think his post was objectionable enough to delete
Can't speak to that. Didn't do it, don't know who it was. We to have one troll though that has been banned and if he pops in and says "Happy Birthday Jason" his post will be deleted. He isn't welcome, regardless. You don't know the history and I'm not going into it here. This is Jason's site and he has the right to say who does and doesn't post. So far, there are two individuals that are banned for life essentially, and the rest of the universe is welcome to post.
Additionally, here are a few more questions:

1) There appears to be no freeware program that implements repeating alarms. Any recommendation for something that's reliable and reasonably priced?
Annoying as heck. No freebies, but Pocket Plus does it - $9.95. Also enables other features. Quite a cool app. Still annoying that repeating alarms was broken in PPC 2002. It worked fine in PPC 2000. :?
2) I asked this in another thread: Is there a way to adjust volume when running games that don't have volume control and don't let you switch apps? This seems to be common with many PPC games, and exiting out and restarting game is time consuming. With PalmOS, I could enter a couple strokes with the stylus while running *any* program and popup a DA-app to adjust volume settings. For those who aren’t familiar with PalmOS’ DA-apps, they provided multitasking like-functionality (though it was really still task switching) by running various utilities in pop-up windows. I ran DA-apps for adjusting volume, pasting the date (or date and time), popping up a calculator, popping up a conversion program, popping up and MP3 player, etc... They all ran instantly. Is there a DA-Apps type program for PPC?
No. I am not into games much, but the few I have that act as you say (SImCity 2000, EverQuest, Age of Empires) totally take control of the entire device - much like PC games do on the desktop. But those games all have volume controls in them.

3) Can I specify that alarms and notifications still sound, but all other apps are muted? With Palm, I could simply check different boxes for Alarm Sound, System Sound, and Game Sound. With PPC, I can turn of System Sounds, but if I go into a game that doesn't have its own sound controls, I need to disable sound (before starting the game in some cases) and re-enable it after the game so my alarms go off. Or maybe I missed a setting somewhere?
No, notifications means enabling program sounds. Good point. Don't know why Notifications isn't enabled separately.
4) This is more of a comment. Even at 300 MHz, I've noticed that many apps still are pokey at populating drop-down lists (such as "Personal Health" and "Diet Tracker"). The problem here is that some tasks that PalmOS assisted me with now take so long with PPC that using the PPC becomes a task itself. That's a big problem for people who aren't gadget freaks like us.
Those that aren't gadget freaks like us rarely run 15 things at once. :wink: I'll be the first to admit that as much as I like the multitasking in the PPC, the memory management could be better. Here's hoping PPC based on the CE 4.0 kernel addresses this.

Deslock - all 100% valid points. My purpose in the article wasn't to say Palm sucked and PPC ruled. It was to say that "Palm is simple, Pocket PC is complex and difficult" is a bogus myth perpetuated by the media and "zensters." I mentioned several things the Palm did better than the Pocket PC. I still think the autocomplete of company names is cool as heck. 8) A number of people have read this article and quite a few have told me it was well balanced. There are no factual errors - at least none that have been pointed out to me. I had a few Palm afficianados review the article for accuracy before it went live too. You may disagree with my opinions. That's fine. They are opinions. You may still hold out that Graffiti is the ultimate. You and a few other Palm users. PalmSource has abandoned that.

It wasn't meant to change people's minds either. The article was simply mean to dispell the myths and look at common functions from an objective point of view.

Deslock

01-15-2003, 10:03 PM

I'm sure Ed will take a stab at your questions, but everything you raise (with the exception of the Find feature perhaps) is a matter of third party software. Ed's article was based on an "out of box" experience, because trying to compare everything third party app out there and how it makes/breaks the PDA experience would be almost impossible.

Actually, many of the questions I brought up are not solved by 3rd party software. That’s the problem… I can’t do some of those things with PPC.

You're not comparing a Palm to a Pocket PC - you're comparing your "fully-loaded and tweaked just the way you want it" Palm to a Pocket PC, and wondering why it doesn't function exactly like your Palm. A bit silly isn't it?

No, some of my points and questions involved 3rd party software and some did not. Ed also mentioned some 3rd party apps in his write-up, and I have no problem with that.

2) I asked this in another thread: Is there a way to adjust volume when running games that don't have volume control and don't let you switch apps?
No. Your scenario doesn't make sense to me anyway - why would you need all those independent volume controls? What's "simple" about that? :? To each his own, but the answer is still "no".

Ed understood my question and thought it was a good point.

3) Can I specify that alarms and notifications still sound, but all other apps are muted? With Palm, I could simply check different boxes for Alarm Sound, System Sound, and Game Sound. With PPC, I can turn of System Sounds, but if I go into a game that doesn't have its own sound controls, I need to disable sound (before starting the game in some cases) and re-enable it after the game so my alarms go off. Or maybe I missed a setting somewhere?
That would be a problem with a poorly-designed application I suppose. Again, I don't get your scenario here - you're saying that you'd want to play a game with no audio turned on, but you'd still want your alarms to make noise? Why? You're staring right at the device, so why do you need an audible warning? If you don't want game sounds, why would you want alarm sounds - isn't a sound a sound?

If I turn off sound for a game and forget to turn it back on after I’m done, I don’t hear my alarms that are set to go off later. Like most of my points, this isn’t crucial. But all these little PPC deficiencies add up. Palm isn’t perfect either, obviously .

This is kind of like discussing Windows XP with a Mac user - even if you're asking questions, they're all loaded because you already know the answer, and we know you're just pretending and aren't interested in switching. :lol: It's like me going to a Saturn dealership and asking to see the model with a V-12 engine, then feigning surprise when they don't have one. "Oh, wow, really?? My Jaguar has one you see..." :lol:

If you're happy with your Palm, that's great. But you haven't really proven anything about Palm being "simpler to use" than the Pocket PC. Most of your examples/questions are esoteric at best, trollish at worst.

I’m surprised that after everything I written, you say I’m just trolling here. To be honest, I think you’re paranoid. My posts are all genuine. I did in fact purchase an HP1910 with my money, I have switched to PPC, and I want to solve as many of these issues as possible. Hardware is what really matters to me and if Sony were to release a sub-5-ounce 480x320 PalmOS5 device with a removable battery, I might be tempted to switch back. But I intend to try to make PCC work out. As I get used to it, I may decide that its sluggishness and quirks are worthwhile tradeoffs for its advantages.

PS - I don't know why you included a big quote about my integrity on this site, but if you expect to bait me into defending the reason why a post was deleted yet again, you're not going to be successful. Stick to the discussion at hand, not how I run the site, ok? Thanks.It was just part of the post I quoted, which was from earlier in this thread… not trimming it wasn’t intentional. To be blunt, I think that in addition to being paranoid, you’re taking this too personally.

Deslock

01-15-2003, 10:17 PM

The Start|Find will search all PIM and Pocket PC native documents - text, word, excel, etc. You can limit it to one, say just contacts or just tasks, but not all PIM and Word {snip} If Palm can search that 6-7MB of total data instantly, that is impressive. {snip} And if Palm can allow you to search multiple categories, (Tasks, Contacts, Data) while eliminating others (Appointments, Notes, Memos) that's pretty cool. I'll say it never occurred to me to try that though, so I'm not missing it.

The Palm is faster at searching, but to fair to PPC, I don’t usually have the Palm search everything. Going through all my PIM programs and 3rd party hierarchical note program (hi-note) takes only 3-4 seconds (this is over 10,000 records, but is likely still less than 1 MB of data). If I could tell PPC to search only all my PIM apps, I'm sure it would be just as fast. The problem is that I can't tell PPC to do this unless I do a separate search for each PIM app.
Deslock wrote
1) There appears to be no freeware program that implements repeating alarms. Any recommendation for something that's reliable and reasonably priced?
Annoying as heck. No freebies, but Pocket Plus does it - $9.95. Also enables other features. Quite a cool app. Still annoying that repeating alarms was broken in PPC 2002. It worked fine in PPC 2000. :?

Yeah, I should’ve mentioned before that I have that I’ve tried that app. I’ll probably end up buying it but I was hoping to get something cheaper. It’s not that $10 is too much… it’s just that I’m going to end up buying a lot of apps to do little things and it’s starting to add up.

Deslock wrote
Is there a DA-Apps type program for PPC?
No. I am not into games much, but the few I have that act as you say (SImCity 2000, EverQuest, Age of Empires) totally take control of the entire device - much like PC games do on the desktop. But those games all have volume controls in them.
Yeah, I’ve only come across this problem in a few games. But it is a bit annoying.

Deslock wrote
3) Can I specify that alarms and notifications still sound, but all other apps are muted? With Palm, I could simply check different boxes for Alarm Sound, System Sound, and Game Sound. With PPC, I can turn of System Sounds, but if I go into a game that doesn't have its own sound controls, I need to disable sound (before starting the game in some cases) and re-enable it after the game so my alarms go off. Or maybe I missed a setting somewhere?
No, notifications means enabling program sounds. Good point. Don't know why Notifications isn't enabled separately.

Oh well… like the other things I brought up, it’s not a big deal. There are just a lot of little issues like this. Given that CE/PPC has been out as long as it has, I’m surprised this hasn’t been addressed.

Those that aren't gadget freaks like us rarely run 15 things at once. :wink: I'll be the first to admit that as much as I like the multitasking in the PPC, the memory management could be better. Here's hoping PPC based on the CE 4.0 kernel addresses this.

You and me both.

Deslock - all 100% valid points. My purpose in the article wasn't to say Palm sucked and PPC ruled. It was to say that "Palm is simple, Pocket PC is complex and difficult" is a bogus myth perpetuated by the media and "zensters." I mentioned several things the Palm did better than the Pocket PC. I still think the autocomplete of company names is cool as heck. 8) A number of people have read this article and quite a few have told me it was well balanced. There are no factual errors - at least none that have been pointed out to me. I had a few Palm afficianados review the article for accuracy before it went live too. You may disagree with my opinions. That's fine. They are opinions. You may still hold out that Graffiti is the ultimate. You and a few other Palm users. PalmSource has abandoned that.

It wasn't meant to change people's minds either. The article was simply mean to dispell the myths and look at common functions from an objective point of view.Thanks for the cordial response (I’m getting used to everyone slamming me around here). I agree that Palm went to far with their Zen marketing, though I see lots of marketing fallacies on both sides. The only factual error that really stands out to me was X requiring two strokes (It doesn’t). But like I wrote, a few mistakes are to be expected in a long article… my beef was really with some of the omissions. BTW, I am not one of those who thinks that Graffiti is the ultimate. The only Graffiti advantage that I see is that there are strokes for special characers while Letter Recognizer requires that you to hit on screen buttons (unless I just haven't discovered how to do it with a stroke). The downside to this is that I need to look sometimes at the screen with Letter Recognizer (in meetings, I like to be able to maintain eye-contact). That said, I prefer PPC’s Letter Recognizer. And I can always switch to Graffiti on PPC if I need to, so this isn't an issue... I totally agree with your assertion that input on PPC is easier.

Ed Hansberry

01-15-2003, 11:46 PM

I think we are on agreement on everything, or have come to agree to disagree on certain issues.

The only factual error that really stands out to me was X requiring two strokes (It doesn’t).

Well, it may not require it, but page 7 of http://www.palm.com/shared_intl/all/handbooks/m130/de/gsg.pdf says it does and writing it that way does work, so that is how someone not out for the ultimate shortcut will do it.

Interestingly, I used CharRecognizer and found that a single NW-SE stroke will make an X on the Pocket PC.

Scott R

01-16-2003, 12:10 AM

Janak Parekh

01-16-2003, 12:16 AM

I believe Palm's inclusion of the "two-stroke" method in their manual (and exclusion of the single-stroke method) was part of their weak attempt at trying to make a case for Graffiti not infringing on Xerox's Unistrokes. I always use the single stroke "fish" stroke.
Yup, I've always been using the fish strokes on the Palm as well as via uppercase Character Recognizer/Block Recognizer on PPC2000/2002 respectively. I had learned the trick from the Palm newsgroups. :)

--janak

Ed Hansberry

01-16-2003, 12:18 AM

Well, it may not require it, but page 7 of http://www.palm.com/shared_intl/all/handbooks/m130/de/gsg.pdf says it does and writing it that way does work, so that is how someone not out for the ultimate shortcut will do it.
I believe Palm's inclusion of the "two-stroke" method in their manual (and exclusion of the single-stroke method) was part of their weak attempt at trying to make a case for Graffiti not infringing on Xerox's Unistrokes. I always use the single stroke "fish" stroke.
A backwards K stroke?

That just gives more credence to my point. Right facing fish for K, left facing fish for X? How about K for K and X for X? And if they did the double-stroke X for ease, why not the way 99% of the people write it - NE/SW then NW/SE, not the other way around?

Fish aren't simple, just like FITALY may not be simple. They may be faster but my whole point was simple. Simple and efficient aren't always the same thing. The most efficient sorting code I've ever seen in VBA isn't simple at all. I get headaches just looking at it. Bubblesort routines are very simple, but not efficient. Graffiti isn't simple. It is that... uhm... simple! :lol:

Deslock

01-16-2003, 01:53 AM

Jason:

I just reread my response to you and some of its tone was a little more confrontational than I intended. So I want to reiterate that I appreciate the work you do to run this site. It takes a thick skin to do what you do, and I doubt that I’d be able to handle it.

As far as our little tit-for-tat goes, I hope we can put it to rest. I enjoy this website greatly and I usually try to keep my posts informative and/or inquisitive in nature. Some of what I posted today was in that vein, but I definitely let my argumentative nature get the best of me (I hate to admit this, but I do enjoy debating with EdH... he and I used to spar at PDABuzz back when it didn't suck).

Anyway, thanks again for your efforts! Now take a deep breathe and try to relax!

Scott R

01-16-2003, 05:04 AM

Fish aren't simple, just like FITALY may not be simple. They may be faster but my whole point was simple. Simple and efficient aren't always the same thing.
The problem is that "simple" is a nebulous term. For one person it may mean "initial ease of use." For me, it includes long-term usability as well. As a "skilled" Graffiti user, it's simpler for me to write my "X" in one stroke without having to lift the stylus between strokes.

Taking this back to the purpose of this thread...When a columnist says a Palm is "simpler" than a PPC, are they conciously thinking that Graffiti is simpler to learn than the input methods that the PPC has to offer? Certainly not. But if they're a seasoned Palm user, they may very well consider Graffiti simpler to use (once learned) on a day-to-day basis.

Scott

Pony99CA

01-16-2003, 08:46 AM

Pony99CA

01-16-2003, 09:02 AM

3) Can I specify that alarms and notifications still sound, but all other apps are muted? With Palm, I could simply check different boxes for Alarm Sound, System Sound, and Game Sound. With PPC, I can turn of System Sounds, but if I go into a game that doesn't have its own sound controls, I need to disable sound (before starting the game in some cases) and re-enable it after the game so my alarms go off. Or maybe I missed a setting somewhere?

That would be a problem with a poorly-designed application I suppose. Again, I don't get your scenario here - you're saying that you'd want to play a game with no audio turned on, but you'd still want your alarms to make noise? Why? You're staring right at the device, so why do you need an audible warning? If you don't want game sounds, why would you want alarm sounds - isn't a sound a sound?

If I turn off sound for a game and forget to turn it back on after I’m done, I don’t hear my alarms that are set to go off later. Like most of my points, this isn’t crucial. But all these little PPC deficiencies add up. Palm isn’t perfect either, obviously .

I agree with both of you to a degree. First, a sound certainly is not a sound, even on the Pocket PC. That's why they allow control over certain types of sounds independently of others. I agree that Notifications shouldn't be a subset of Programs, but rather an independent category.

If I'm in a boring meeting playing a game, I don't want to distract anybody else (especially the boss :-)). However, if an alarm goes off, I may well want a good excuse to leave the meeting, so I'd like the sound there. :-D

Jason is right that those applications are poorly designed. One of the problems with things like Peter's Game Box is that it literally takes over the Pocket PC. If an alarm goes off, you briefly see it, but then the game obscures it again. You pretty much have to exit the game to see the notification.

Bad design? Perhaps, but asking if there's a way to work around that is a valid question. I'd love to hear there's a solution to that problem, too.

Steve

Pony99CA

01-16-2003, 09:13 AM

And if they did the double-stroke X for ease, why not the way 99% of the people write it - NE/SW then NW/SE, not the other way around?

You mentioned this earlier, and I forgot to comment on it then. I have always written an X NW-to-SE first. That just makes sense, as we write left-to-right and top-to-bottom. That also makes the Letter Recognizer "\" shortcut make sense.

Why would anybody start writing an X on the right side of the paper? If you look at cursive writing, as opposed to printing, the X is (almost) always started NW-to-SE.

So how do you figure 99% of people do it right-to-left? Should we have a poll? :lol:

Steve

Deslock

01-16-2003, 01:19 PM

You use Pocket Informant, right, Ed? That allows you to search multiple categories -- there are check boxes for Contacts, Calendar, Tasks and Journal on the Search page.

As for what Deslock wants to do, searching all PIM applications, that can be done using Find (depending on what you consider "PIM applications" :-)). In Find's Type drop-down list, selecting Pocket Outlook seems to search Calendar, Tasks, Contacts and Inbox.

However, you can't search Contacts and Word, for example.

Sweet! Also-searching-Word-and-ListPro aside, you've answered my Find question! (and I feel a bit sheepish for not trying that earlier) On a side note, I installed Pocket Informant a couple weeks ago but decided it was too slow. I may give it another chance now that I'm at 300 MHz.

Thanks Pony99CA!

Ed Hansberry

01-16-2003, 01:42 PM

Job

01-16-2003, 10:29 PM

Pony99CA

01-17-2003, 10:00 AM

As for what Deslock wants to do, searching all PIM applications, that can be done using Find (depending on what you consider "PIM applications" :-)). In Find's Type drop-down list, selecting Pocket Outlook seems to search Calendar, Tasks, Contacts and Inbox.
Inbox isn't PIM to me or most people, and my email database is pretty big. It is better than the whole machine, but not pure PIM.
Yeah, I don't really consider E-mail part of a PIM applicaton either, which is why I included the disclaimer.

Microsoft apparently does, since it's included in Outlook. I could also easily argue that E-mail is "personal information" and thus reasonable to include in a Personal Information Manager.

By the way, I just found out that using Find to search Pocket Outlook also searches Notes. That makes sense, I guess, as Notes is included in Outlook (although not necessarily synchronized).

Steve

T4RZ4N

04-15-2003, 04:33 AM

my latest PalmOS and PPC devices are Palm m515 and HP Jornada 928.
No, I'm not comparing that my m515 can't do a phone call or SMS, but comparing the basic PIM and data entry method alone, I would have my PPC on my desk and the Palm in my drawer. Not mentioning the Media Player, games, etc. that run in PPC but not Palm.
Enough said.

BTW, great article Ed. Hope those Palm-ers read these :D

Ed Hansberry

04-20-2003, 01:32 AM

ux4484

04-24-2003, 03:28 PM

I put my money that there is actually more Axim out there than Tungsten if not right now, in about 2 weeks.

Palm has sold ALOT of Tungstens, I'd give it a bit more time than that, but yes they will pass them.
{chuckle} We know know this to be false.

hmmmm......nothing better to do then troll your own forums?

We know "what" to be false? that Palm has "not" sold a lot of tungstens, or that Dell has passed them in sales of units?

I think YOU took even my original post of this item to mean that Palm would sell more TT's then Axims, when I intended at that point in time (of the original post, January 2nd) Dell (having only shipped for two weeks) had not yet outsold the Tungsten, but that they would eventually.

If I am in your eyes such a Palmophile, why do I have an Axim?

Ya know Ed, you're still a........

oh never mind.....you'll always be one and it's not worth pointing it out.

Ed Hansberry

04-24-2003, 03:44 PM

I put my money that there is actually more Axim out there than Tungsten if not right now, in about 2 weeks.

Palm has sold ALOT of Tungstens, I'd give it a bit more time than that, but yes they will pass them.
{chuckle} We know know this to be false.

hmmmm......nothing better to do then troll your own forums?

We know "what" to be false? that Palm has "not" sold a lot of tungstens, or that Dell has passed them in sales of units?
No, I was reviewing this forum for some info on the TAB feature on the PalmOS and ran across your post that "Palm has sold ALOT of Tungstens." Since that time, Palm has come out with press releases that their 3rd quarter (Dec-Feb) was lower than projected because the Tungsten T sales were quite low.

I couldn't resist posting because so many people post authoritatively as if you knew Palm had sold "ALOT" of Tungstens when in fact, you didn't know. If you had said "I think Palm is selling a lot of ..." that would have been fine. I have no problem with opinions. I share mine daily. :wink:

As far at the Tungsten passing the Axim, it is now quite likely that the T|T will be discontinued long before it has a chance to catch up to the Axim given the new Zire 71 and Tungsten C model.

ux4484

04-24-2003, 04:02 PM

:roll:

Ed Hansberry

04-24-2003, 04:45 PM

:roll:
Just so I understand why you are rolling your eyes at me.

1. You make a statement about Tungsten T's selling "ALOT"
2. We know that isn't true now that Palm has reported their earnings.
3. I call you on it.
4. I am considered to be trolling.

Ok. Got it. :way to go:

ux4484

04-24-2003, 06:12 PM

on Jan 2nd,IMO:twisted: :roll: Palm had sold more TT's in 2.5 months time on the market than Dell had sold Axim's after only two weeks.....alot as in "more than Dell on Jan 2nd". As in, Dell had sold alot of Axims in two weeks, but not as many as Palm had TT's after 2.5 months.
A LOT is a relative term, what is A LOT of a NEW device from a new entry into the market, is clearly not A LOT to an established mfg with a NEW device, even though the numbers may be very close in digits.

The tungsten T is a gadget for gadgets sake type device (almost every person I know with one is a trekker), even with the price drop, it will now never catch up to the Axim before it's (the TT's) demise (of course you won't dispute if THAT is an opinion or not).

Jeesh, stop by to see what's up (becoming a raritity as I'm loosing my appetite for PDA sites) and this is the crap I see.

adieu

qmrq

02-14-2004, 02:53 PM

The Palm requires you to tap on fields to move around.
? Make a quick stroke from top of graffiti area to bottom, then back up to go to next field. Opposite can be used to go to previous field.