Sony to Consumer: Thanks For Your Loyalty, Now Buy More Stuff

[Ed Hansberry]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.com.com/2100-1040-977004.html?tag=fd_lede2_hed' target='_blank'>http://news.com.com/2100-1040-97700...ag=fd_lede2_hed</a><br /><br /></div>"Sony is close to unveiling a new, higher capacity version of its popular Memory Stick removable flash memory card. But sources say it won't be compatible with older devices. Expected to be announced at next month's Consumer Electronics Show, the new Memory Stick uses a different architecture to achieve higher capacities than the original card, sources said. Current Memory Stick cards top out at 128MB, but the new cards will come in 256MB, 512MB and 1GB capacities." :roll: <br /><br />So those of you with memory stick devices, be it a Sony Clie, a Sony digital camera, Vaio with an MS slot, camcorder or Aibo are out in the cold. I have said it before. I despise proprietary solutions like the memory stick and about 95% of the other stuff Sony cranks out. Not because their products aren't good. They are good. In fact, they are great many times. But their proprietary nature means Sony can do what they want and as evidenced by this latest turn of events, <b><i>will</i></b> do what they want. Sony fans can only hope that new products that use the tentatively named Sony Memory Stick Pro products can use the older and now defunct Memory Stick and Memory Stick Duo products so there is some measure of interoperability between your Sony products.<br /><br />Keep this in mind the next time you are at an electronics store and the product you are pondering has a Sony proprietary slot.

[KyleC]

This is going to KILL Sony! Basically any Sony product out from TVs to mice with MS in them will be incompatable with the new format, which will not only make all sony products obselete, but will also detract business from Sony. Digital camera owners are going to love Sony as well. Same with $2,000 AIBO & VAIO owners. The owners of Sony's overpriced $600 Clie's are going to adore Sony.

One other thing: with the MS-DUO cards be compatable with the new format?

Sony is desperately trying to recover from what the Betamax could have been... unfortunately, this is not going to help their cause one bit.

[smashcasi]

That's business for you. Sony obviously believes they can use the higher capacities to sell more products to existing customers by making what they have now obsolete. They're probably right.

[Jonathan1]

DAMN YOU SONY!!! I will never buy another memory stick enabled device ever again!!! :x :x :evil: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted:

I _WAS_ looking forward to eventually being able to use a 256MB stick in my 1 grand cybershot camera. Does Sony want me to go out and spend another cool grand on a camera. This is Sony’s way of saying:
Merry Christmas!!! Now bend over and get what is coming to all those that trusted us.

[INSERT A THREE PARAGRAPH STRING OF PROFANITIES HERE.]

[jtallon]

Hmm. Must be the evil-empire Sony and their devil-worshipping marketing people that came up with this scheme.

No way at all it could be a physical limitation of the existing memory stick, or some other improvement (i.e. greater bandwidth by adding more pins to the bus ?) that is driving the change ?

Anybody ever stop to ponder the thought that maybe Sony NEEDED to make the change in order to get higher capacity memory sticks ?

And this won't make your current memory stick devices stop working with current memory sticks people. New devices will handle the higher capacity cards. Seems pretty simple to me...

But go ahead and bitch about Sony and proprietary and boycotts and how evil they are.

Personally, I think Sony makes good stuff, and I will continue to buy it if it's well designed and useful. Proprietary memory cards and all...

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Hey, maybe Sony will jointly advertise their new Memory Stick with their Label Gate system...

"Get the new Memory Stick and we'll give you half off the price to rip your first song using Label Gate technology!!"

You know, most power users I know don't invest in Memory Stick but a lot of casual users I know do. What I'm dreading is that at some point in the future when they do upgrade to a new digicam or a new Sony Clie, they might think, "well... I don't have any investments in other removable media, so I lose nothing by going with Sony again..."

Obviously power users will quickly note that if they had invested in something other than Sony initially they wouldn't have to worry about this, but then again, these aren't power users... and there's a reason Sony is able to charge so much more $$ for their products than their competition... b/c people continue to buy... many people feel more secure in purchasing Sony over other products...

I hope I'm wrong though...

[Ed Hansberry]

Anybody ever stop to ponder the thought that maybe Sony NEEDED to make the change in order to get higher capacity memory sticks ?
THen people shouldn't invest in a product led by a company with such short-sightedness. They said last year (2001) that capacities higher than 128MB were coming. Meanwhile, CF has 3-4GB cards in the works by Pretec and SD cards have 512MB availabe and up to 4GB testing in Panasonic's labs.

[jpaq]

My CF and SD cards work remarkably well with a multitude of products. I love having media types shared between my Canon Digital Camera and my PDA.

If you are under the illusion that Sony does not have somewhat suspect intentions, witness the newest Clie models with "CF" slots. Well, that's really CF, kind of, but not really. Yes it is a CF slot if you are only planning on using Sony's "CF" WiFi card or other Sony "CF" cards. Now this Memory Shaft, I mean Stick, thing? Come on kids. Open your eyes! 8O

There are plenty of other electronic and computer manufacturers out there making quality products. I will admit that Sony does make it's own fair share of fine products, but there are just too many fish in the sea to possibly shoot myself in the foot with them.

BETAMAX RULES!!!
I kill me!
8)

P.S. I think it follows that Sony will likely stop making the Memory Shafts up to 128mb on the old architecture and make them only on the new architecture. That hasn't been announced or leaked or documented, but if history tells us anything......

[Snail]

Not surprising at all...

Remember - this is the company that tries to sell you MP3 playing devices, whilst protecting it's CD's so you can't rip them :roll:

[KyleC]

But go ahead and bitch about Sony and proprietary and boycotts and how evil they are.

Ok, then we will! :wink:

Sony might have needed to update their memory stick format, but I have a feeling that the new lower capacity cards will have the same design as the new high capacity cards in order to "standardize" However, if this happens, then not only will you be stuck with low capacity but you won't be able to buy new cards at all!

In all honesty, I'm surprised that Sony didn't have the forethought to include a (potentially) limitless memory capacity in the design of their cards. Look at Compact Flash: about 5 years old, and 3GB versions are now in the works! Do you really think that five years ago the makers of CF thought that it would even be possible to store 3GB in a card that small? Probably not. However, they didn't eliminate the possibility, and that's the kind of forethought that I like to see from "standard" developers.

[Kati Compton]

Let me state right off the bat that I don't like Sony's use of proprietary everything very much at all, and that I've stopped buying Sony electronic products whenever I can. (No doubt I still get CDs from them sometimes, but we'll see how that goes...)

BUT - if you read the actual article, it's pretty clear that it is in fact at least a pin limitation. Sony said that they were working on a solution to allow 256MB in current devices, but that it would probably be 128 on one side and 128 on the other, and require the user to FLIP it. That tells me pin limitation.

That being said, I think that at best it wasn't the brightest thing to only provide for up to 128MB in their interface, and at worst, a cold calculating move. I mean, they were designing their own format from scratch, right? They could have planned ahead and made it possible to store 2 Gigs or something like that, and just not released any sticks that made use of that potential until it because more affordable to the consumer. But planning that "future expandability" into the design would have been a good thing for the consumer.

My question is whether or not the NEW devices that use the "pro" version of the memory stick will be able to read the OLDER sticks. I would hope so, but it'll certainly tell us something if they can't.

[Mike Temporale]

The only Sony product I own is my TV and as far as I'm concerned it's the only product from Sony I would ever buy.

Never liked their laptops, cameras, PDA's, or Memory Stick.


It's the whole proprietary thing. You gotta watch out with that.

[Rob Borek]

At best, Sony's engineers were too incompetent to add 1+1 to get the bus right for higher capacities. At worst, Sony calculated it this way to make even more money.

Either way, it makes Sony look bad.

[Foo Fighter]

The more stunts SONY pulls like this, the more they will drive consumers and enterprise to SD and CF based hardware. It's bad enough that MS is proprietary...but now the market is fragmented as well.

[Jason Dunn]

Well, I guess this explains why Sony was so slow to come up with larger capacities.

It amazes me though - I'd own several Sony products if they used CF or SD. Device interoperability is very important to me, so I'll never own a Sony device that can only use Memory Sticks. Bummer, because Sony hardware is SO beautifully designed!

If Sony wasn't so damn big, MemoryStick would have become relegated to the junk-bin of tech history like SmartMedia has been...

[Foo Fighter]

If Sony wasn't so damn big, MemoryStick would have become relegated to the junk-bin of tech history like SmartMedia has been...

Yep. It is only by the shear ubiquity of Sony devices that the MS format continued to exist in fairly widespread use. If it weren't for that, CF or even SD would have killed it long ago.

[Venturello]

DAMN!

I have a $1000 Sony Digital Camera, my father another $500 digicam, a $1300 Sony Digital Video Camera, a $1000 (its old) Vaio with MS slot, a CF-MS adaptor, a PCMCIA-MS adaptor, several readers, etc...

Loyal to sony since their products are so good but THIS DECISION FREAKING SUCKS!!!

Bad bad bad for costumers Sony... this leaves me with a bitter taste on my mouth... so much (and considering all of Sony's latest restrictive moves on media and rights) that I will not consider Sony products in the future as much as I would before this.

I'll vote with my cash as usual, Sony stuff is GOOD, but this kind of things... show complete lack of respect for a costumer's investment!!

(just as a comment, I dont care for > 128Mb MS, I have 1 128Mb, 2 64Mb, 2 32Mb and 2 8Mb, and they are waaay more than enough for my needs... but A LOT of people want more memory in their Sony devices)

(BTW, the posts on http://www.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1009 what is probably the best digital site out there, are just CRAZY over this - these people have trusted sony A LOT on their investments - check out the site, its great)

(PD^3 Sony has ALWAYS been like this, and they don't learn... see BetaMax, MiniDisk, etc... so usual for them...)

[surur]

Its only because Sony Ericsson P800 uses memory sticks that I havnt got one yet (besides it not shipping yet of course :? ). I wonder how many sales sony is loosing becasue of their obstinance. :x

Surur

[madmaxmedia]

At best, Sony's engineers were too incompetent to add 1+1 to get the bus right for higher capacities. At worst, Sony calculated it this way to make even more money.

Either way, it makes Sony look bad.

I think that best sums it up!!! I doubt Sony calculated it this way to make money, if so they really should have anticipated the large backlash.

I didn't even know about the 128 MB limitation. If there was no actual limitation, I think 3rd parties might have come up with larger cards.

I'd be really pissed if I owned a 3 or 4 MP Sony digital camera, those really scream for a larger card (or at least the POSSIBILITY!)

[Foo Fighter]

On the bright side....this will drive a large number of people over to the Pocket PC camp. Way to go Sony! :roll:

[Fitch]

This was my first reaction (http://members.tripod.com/~hkboy2/haha.wav)

[Ed Hansberry]

This was my first reaction (http://members.tripod.com/~hkboy2/haha.wav)

This file is hosted by Tripod, a Lycos®Network Site, and is not available for download. Please check out Tripod's Help system for more information about Remote Loading and our Remote Loading policy.

[PapaSmurfDan]

At best, Sony's engineers were too incompetent to add 1+1 to get the bus right for higher capacities. At worst, Sony calculated it this way to make even more money.

Either way, it makes Sony look bad.

I think that best sums it up!!! I doubt Sony calculated it this way to make money, if so they really should have anticipated the large backlash.



I somehow think it is a combination of both. If sony's engineers were that incompentent to see that 1gig memory sticks would be in demand when they designed it, I will really start to worry.

This is what I think. That extra pin or slightly more complex implementation of the MS controller was a few cents more than the management wanted. They took the cheap road and waited to see if consumers would really take the bait. Now that they see people will buy into these sticks, they decide it is worth the extra few cents (becuase the profit on selling that 1gig stick is much more than the device).

Now, I would hope all of sony's recent devices(last 6-12months) can support the new standard. If not, Sony will piss a lot of consumers off. I would personaly send sony a nasty letter if I bought a recent high end digicam only to find out that it won't work with the high capacity cards.

-Dan

[Jason Dunn]

(BTW, the posts on http://www.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1009 what is probably the best digital site out there, are just CRAZY over this - these people have trusted sony A LOT on their investments - check out the site, its great)

I love the site, but wow, their forum software SUCKS...!! 8O It's almost impossible to read that thread...and I'm happy to say that the people who post here seem better equipped to string together coherent sentences. :wink:

[mookie123]

I think it's pretty save to say, Memory Stick is finish now. The 'MS pro' will never be able to catch up unless it is priced 1/100th of current price, which is not possible. The XD format already stalk the cheap as dirt solid state solution. SD will stalk the IO capable slot niche. CF cleans up the rest.

Plus Sony will need a massive PR campaign to fix MS broken promise. (long term investment of those stick than can work everywhere) But customer will be really sceptic adopting yet another standard from Sony.

[wrightca]

I get questioned many times to recommend things like computers, cameras, PDAs, etc. I can't count the times I've steered people away from Sony for the sole reason of their ultra-proprietary mindset. I thought we learned that lesson with Radio Shack and Tandy computers, Packard Bell, and Apple. You choke your progress by making up your own standards. The Mavicas sold like mad because they had the floppy for picture storage. You already had the film reader on the computer, and didn't have to by any 'new-fangled' media. Of course, there are those people who will by Sony just because it's Sony. Those are the same kind of people who vote ultra-liberal democrat even when that person wants to take away all your money and give it to someone living off welfare handouts and the same kind of people who will buy Palms and swear by them even though they are struggling to keep up with the most basic of PocketPC devices.

[Fishie]

I get questioned many times to recommend things like computers, cameras, PDAs, etc. I can't count the times I've steered people away from Sony for the sole reason of their ultra-proprietary mindset. I thought we learned that lesson with Radio Shack and Tandy computers, Packard Bell, and Apple. You choke your progress by making up your own standards. The Mavicas sold like mad because they had the floppy for picture storage. You already had the film reader on the computer, and didn't have to by any 'new-fangled' media. Of course, there are those people who will by Sony just because it's Sony. Those are the same kind of people who vote ultra-liberal democrat even when that person wants to take away all your money and give it to someone living off welfare handouts and the same kind of people who will buy Palms and swear by them even though they are struggling to keep up with the most basic of PocketPC devices.

Oh boy, we had a thread steer of becouse it got a little too politicised here this week already. So id kindly like to ask you to keep youre ultra conservative remarks to yourself.

[post edited by moderator]

[wrightca]

Isn't that ironic, a liberal european.

[Paul P]

First of all, as someone who almost exclusively buys everything Sony, this sucks. I am not really as upset as some of the people here, however, because the 128MB memory stick I have now is more than enough for me.

This is going to KILL Sony! Basically any Sony product out from TVs to mice with MS in them will be incompatable with the new format, which will not only make all sony products obselete, but will also detract business from Sony.

Make all sony products obsolete? One of the Sony products I use quite a bit is my digital voice recorder. I can record some 20hrs of normal compression sound on one 128MB memory stick. Okay, I won't be able to record 40hrs. How much will that impact my use of the recorder? Not much. I can still record a week of lectures on it. Same goes for cybershot. I consider myself a heavy user of the camera and find the current capacity more than suitable for my needs.

In all honesty, I'm surprised that Sony didn't have the forethought to include a (potentially) limitless memory capacity in the design of their cards. Look at Compact Flash: about 5 years old, and 3GB versions are now in the works! Do you really think that five years ago the makers of CF thought that it would even be possible to store 3GB in a card that small? Probably not.

I think the CF format shouldn't be compared to the memory stick. While the advantage of the smaller size belongs to Sony, the larger size allows CF to increase the capacities of their media much faster. Hence, we are seeing the SD card lag behind a little.

[KyleC]

The XD format already stalk the cheap as dirt solid state solution.
I'm sorry to say that I disagree. I don't believe that xD will become as popular as any of the current standards. It, like MS, is a standard that a company developed for sole implementation in it's own products. CF and SD transcend both product function and brand. For example, you can put your SanDisk SD card in your Kodak digital camera, take some pictures, then transfer it to your Toshiba Pocket PC to listen to music while you look at the pictures. When you're done, you can take it and put it in an HP photo printer and print out your photos. While you could take your Sony MS and put it in a Sony camera, take pictures, put it in a Sony Clie, look at the pictures OR listen to music, then put it in your Sony computer to upload pictures to print on your Sony printer, I don't want to buy all these "sony" things if I don't have to. Unfortunately, Sony doesn't care. That is Sony's problem.

[vincentsiaw]

damn taht sony if it changes memory stick format, i swear never gonna buy any more sony!! :twisted:

[Fishie]

Isn't that ironic, a liberal european.

Who said im a liberal?

[KyleC]

Make all sony products obsolete? One of the Sony products I use quite a bit is my digital voice recorder. I can record some 20hrs of normal compression sound on one 128MB memory stick. Okay, I won't be able to record 40hrs. How much will that impact my use of the recorder? Not much. I can still record a week of lectures on it. Same goes for cybershot. I consider myself a heavy user of the camera and find the current capacity more than suitable for my needs.
What happens if your 128MB MS malfunctions or breaks? Do you really think that Sony will keep two (incompatable) different MS sticks going for the sake of users of old products? Would Sony sacrafice compatability of new devices at the benefit of the old? Answer? Not likely. So next time don't tell me that your Betamax isn't obsolete because it works with a tape you happened to keep, because it is obsolete. It requires parts that are no longer made. Soon enough, the same thing will happen with all Sony products.

[Paul P]

What happens if your 128MB MS malfunctions or breaks? Do you really think that Sony will keep two (incompatable) different MS sticks going for the sake of users of old products? Would Sony sacrafice compatability of new devices at the benefit of the old? Answer? Not likely. So next time don't tell me that your Betamax isn't obsolete because it works with a tape you happened to keep, because it is obsolete. It requires parts that are no longer made. Soon enough, the same thing will happen with all Sony products.

If it breaks, maybe I'll just buy a new one? Yes, I do think that for 'however ever long' I will have my sony stuff, I will be able to purchase a compatible memory stick. Sony products, like all other products, will eventually phase out. It will take some time for Sony to incorporate the new format into the market. Many people will not be affected for a while by the new change.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I think the CF format shouldn't be compared to the memory stick. While the advantage of the smaller size belongs to Sony, the larger size allows CF to increase the capacities of their media much faster. Hence, we are seeing the SD card lag behind a little.
I don't think that your comparison with SD helps. If you consider that SDs have only been on the market for less than two years, I'd say their progression in memory capacities have grown faster than CF did (and definitely MUCH faster than Memory Stick). I mean 512MB SD cards have been readily available for several months with 1GB SDs are likely showing up in Japan now (Jason just posted that Matsu****a went to market with these babies last month). That's not too far behind CF cards which (with exception to Pretec) currently top out at 1GB capacities.

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Memory Sticks have been on the market AT LEAST as long if not longer than SD. The main difference is that the SD specs were a result of multiple manufacterers coming together and agreeing upon a design that would last far into the future.

[madmaxmedia]

It has nothing to do with size, it has to do with design.

Here's the thing that is most bothersome to me. Sony used to have a diagram on their website detailing their Memory Stick 'roadmap', with the larger capacity sticks coming in the near future.

Well, what the heck happened to that? If there's a design/physical limitation that prevents cards greater than 128 MB, why did they have a road map promising bigger cards? Did they just realize that such bigger cards are actually impossible? Huh?

And to the voice recorder guy, maybe if you considered that lots of people use memory sticks for much more memory-intensive apps, you'd see that this is a big deal to these other people. Mainly music and photos.

I own a Sony CLIE, and the limit doesn't bother me. But I'm glad I don't own a Sony digicam (especially their new 717.)

[Paul P]

I don't think that your comparison with SD helps. If you consider that SDs have only been on the market for less than two years, I'd say their progression in memory capacities have grown faster than CF did (and definitely MUCH faster than Memory Stick).

Ekkie,

I agree with that, but I wasn't really trying to make a comparison with SD. SD have progressed much faster than MS. I was mostly noting that the CF and MS comparison is a little unfair.

[tj21]

You also have to remember that the % of pda users this afffects is likely to be pretty small. I don't think the average pda owner is using >128mb storage. Obviously people here are more likely to be pushing the envelope but that's not representative of the general population. Digital camera owners are likely to be more irate. I've wondered for awhile now how they've managed to sell their cameras with such small capacity.

No way is this a profit motive on Sony's part. I'd say they simply screwed up the long term upgrades of their technology. Your call as to whether that's a more positive option. MS is about 5 years old now and it appears they didn't consider larger storage options when they designed it. Given that Sony now integrates MS into almost everything they sell I doubt they're happy about changing standards. I'll believe it when Sony actually announces it. My guess is they leaked it to determine how bad the backlash would be before deciding if they can really get away with it.

BTW MS really isn't proprietary. It's available from several manufacturers and installed on some non-Sony products. The reason it isn't more widely adopted is because it isn't very good relative to CF and SD not because it is proprietary.

It'll be interesting to see if they support the newer format on the Clie NX via the CF slot.

T

[Ed Hansberry]

No way is this a profit motive on Sony's part.
Nope. Not Sony. Never. Betamax, Minidisc, DAT, Labelgate. None of those are Sony's proprietary formats for profit motives. They are all just superior technology. Well, except Memory Stick, which, it turns out, is a dud.

Sony would never change formats go squeeze more money out of consumers. In fact, I'll bet out of the goodness of their heart they will implement some sort of rebate/discount on future MS-Pro devices for existing MS-device users to ease the pain of the upgrade. :roll:

[klinux]

[quote]That's not too far behind CF cards which (with exception to Pretec) currently top out at 1GB capacities.

I believe CF cards top out at 3 gig now.

[Brad Adrian]

...I don't think the average pda owner is using >128mb storage...
It's probably more accurate to say "the average Sony PDA user..."

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

BTW MS really isn't proprietary. It's available from several manufacturers and installed on some non-Sony products. The reason it isn't more widely adopted is because it isn't very good relative to CF and SD not because it is proprietary.
I would disagree. If it wasn't "very good relative to CF", why introduce a new format in the first place? That was very calculated move on Sony's part.

Sony introduced a new medium when it wasn't needed and then decided that ALL of its products would support nothing else besides MS.

I'm willing to bet that Sony receives a licensing fee for 1) all vendors who choose to manufacter and sell memory sticks and 2) all manufacterers who choose to create devices that support it. This isn't the case with either CF or SD.

I'm sure Sony would love to nothing more than to see MS rise to the level of popularity of CF and SD where numerous devices support it and Sony holds the license to the media.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

That's not too far behind CF cards which (with exception to Pretec) currently top out at 1GB capacities.

I believe CF cards top out at 3 gig now.

The 3GB card belongs to Pretec (note my exception above) and from what I understand, these are not yet available to the general market.

[Paul P]

No way is this a profit motive on Sony's part.
Nope. Not Sony. Never. Betamax, Minidisc, DAT, Labelgate. None of those are Sony's proprietary formats for profit motives. They are all just superior technology. Well, except Memory Stick, which, it turns out, is a dud.

Sony would never change formats go squeeze more money out of consumers. In fact, I'll bet out of the goodness of their heart they will implement some sort of rebate/discount on future MS-Pro devices for existing MS-device users to ease the pain of the upgrade. :roll:

What is the prevalence of Betamax? I know it was a miserable failure to Sony. How long ago was it anyways? Seems that's the first thing people bring up when it comes to Sony. Labelgate is a miserable failure to be. DAT? I don't know anything about DAT...but assuming another miserable failure? I don't know about Minidisk. They are still making them and people continue to buy them. Would I rather carry a cd player? No. Would I rather carry a player currently the size of the actual minidisk? Yes. What about ATRAC? Well, it's a pain, so that's why I don't have one.

Okay, I am seeing 2 1/2 out of 4 formats you mentioned that Sony dropped the ball on. They experimented and they failed with some of them. Where else do they squeeze more money out of consumers? Selling WEGAs? Most of their revenues come from selling those same exact products sold by other companies.

PS: If I don't see any significant improvements or justification for MS Pro, I take everything back. No, I take half of everything I said back. :twisted:

[tj21]

No way is this a profit motive on Sony's part.
Nope. Not Sony. Never. Betamax, Minidisc, DAT, Labelgate. None of those are Sony's proprietary formats for profit motives. They are all just superior technology. Well, except Memory Stick, which, it turns out, is a dud.

Sony would never change formats go squeeze more money out of consumers. In fact, I'll bet out of the goodness of their heart they will implement some sort of rebate/discount on future MS-Pro devices for existing MS-device users to ease the pain of the upgrade. :roll:

I don't believe it's a profit motive only because I don't believe there's a profit in it. This will be a PR disaster for Sony and their Memory stick in every piece of consumer electronics hardware strategy might never recover. Not necessarily a bad thing IMHO. Changing storage options provides a great opportunity for people to switch to non-Memory Stick options. Obviously proprietary formats exist for profit reasons but obsoleting your own technology because of poor design isn't a great marketing strategy. BTW I'm not aware of Sony ever obsoleting betamax, minidisc, or DAT midstream so I'm not sure about the relevance of those comparisons.

Fortunately Microsoft has never been known to produce any proprietary formats. :roll: Seen any good MS office file format documentation lately? Yes proprietary designs suck but find me a major technology company today that isn't guilty of them. Live with them or run open source everything and see what that does to your productivity.

T

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

What is the prevalence of Betamax? I know it was a miserable failure to Sony. How long ago was it anyways? Seems that's the first thing people bring up when it comes to Sony. Labelgate is a miserable failure to be. DAT? I don't know anything about DAT...but assuming another miserable failure? I don't know about Minidisk. They are still making them and people continue to buy them. Would I rather carry a cd player? No. Would I rather carry a player currently the size of the actual minidisk? Yes. What about ATRAC? Well, it's a pain, so that's why I don't have one.

Okay, I am seeing 2 1/2 out of 4 formats you mentioned that Sony dropped the ball on. They experimented and they failed with some of them. Where else do they squeeze more money out of consumers? Selling WEGAs? Most of their revenues come from selling those same exact products sold by other companies.

DAT = Digital Audio Tape (I believe that's the acronym). That was Sony's attempt at overthrowing the audio cassette. It's still used by audio professionals today but it's nowhere near the standard that Sony had hoped for. I agree that MiniDisc has had mixed success. They're HUGE in Japan and I personally love'em. If it weren't for the MP3 capabilities of the PPC, I'd still carry an MD player around.

Anyway, I think Ed's point is that Sony is constantly looking for ways to create a new standard instead of creating cool devices that support the current standard. The motive for any business move is profits, and that is especially apparent in the moves Sony has made through their history. Nothing wrong with that, but I think Ed was throwing a little sarcasm at another poster stressing that the Memory Stick was "not a profit move" by Sony.

BTW, probably intentional on your part, but WEGAs is an apples-oranges comparison here as WEGA technology doesn't impact other consumer choices or require the purchase of other Sony technology.

[mookie123]

The XD format already stalk the cheap as dirt solid state solution.
I'm sorry to say that I disagree. I don't believe that xD will become as popular as any of the current standards. It, like MS, is a standard that a company developed for sole implementation in it's own products. CF and SD transcend both product function and brand.

I was thinking the same thing at first, until i saw this thing in walmart. It's there, it's cheap, it's being promoted.

[Venturello]

(BTW, the posts on http://www.dpreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forum=1009 what is probably the best digital site out there, are just CRAZY over this - these people have trusted sony A LOT on their investments - check out the site, its great)

I love the site, but wow, their forum software SUCKS...!! 8O It's almost impossible to read that thread...and I'm happy to say that the people who post here seem better equipped to string together coherent sentences. :wink:

I agree A LOT Jason... a year or more ago, they used to have an option to view discussion threads in 'flat' mode, which was good enough (never as your site). I wonder why they took that off. More ad hits maybe? (a 20 post discussion takes 20 views...). Even so, the discussions are GOOD, there are a lot of VERY knowledgeful and helpfull professionals who will answer your questions very well or give good advice on anything. I have learned A LOT there and between there, http://airliners.net/discussions/ and here, its the places I talk the most on the web (I do spend 8, 9 hours a day on irc chat channels helping fellow programmers and getting myself help).

Back to the topic, anyone into digital photography should check dpreview.com, their reviews are very good.

About Sony hardware.... to me, I am still an avid fan... the reasons might really be technical after all. Hope, really hope the new devices somehow support the old MS, but I find it difficult they will (not technically, its Sony's style...). For me, their hardware just feels right, so well built and so pretty. Their quality for me, few other manufacturers approach. Just in digicams, the interface is right, fast and well layout, they take great pictures without being overcomplicated, but still gives me the semi-pro options I like. And they do innovate in all areas they are in. I also have 2 sony WEGA TV's and my 21" monitor. Costly, but both have an image quality and set of features that satisfy me very much.

As you can see... I like Sony's stuff very much. Imagine them in the pocket pc arena! They would be the company to innovate the most in the hardware, and probably in the bundled software, no doubts. Look what they have done with a semi-OS like Palm's! Not a bad job....

So, in the end... excellent engineers/hackers at midlevel as engineers, and... greedy managers at the top. It seems... a shame indeed.

[Paul P]

DAT = Digital Audio Tape (I believe that's the acronym). That was Sony's attempt at overthrowing the audio cassette. It's still used by audio professionals today but it's nowhere near the standard that Sony had hoped for.

Thanks for the explanation.

Anyway, I think Ed's point is that Sony is constantly looking for ways to create a new standard instead of creating cool devices that support the current standard.

I have to disagree with you here. I think Sony is still one of the most innovative companies around. True, they are innovating around their own proprietary technology, but they are still innovating. How would sony products be any different in terms of innovation had they been compatible with SD or CF? Memory card storage is an essential element of any device. Why not shift resources to improving its speed and performance?

BTW, probably intentional on your part, but WEGAs is an apples-oranges comparison here as WEGA technology doesn't impact other consumer choices or require the purchase of other Sony technology.

I was more trying to emphasize that Sony's proprietary technology does not engulf their whole product line. Their revenue is diversified to many products that do no revolve around the memory stick.

[Fishie]

[quote]That's not too far behind CF cards which (with exception to Pretec) currently top out at 1GB capacities.

I believe CF cards top out at 3 gig now.

Also you guys are seeming to forget the fact that SD basically was forced to advance memorywise faster then CF had in the past.

SD is/was more expensive and had lower capacity and on size alone it would have never made the inroads it did if it werent for bigger memory sizes.
The fact that CF and IBMs microdrive were 1gig and there was sufficient demand for those sizes forced SD makers to up memory sizes quicker then they would have otherwise.

[Fishie]

Oh and Betamax is the standard used in broadcasting by just about all networks in existence worldwide.

[heov]

what's all the comotion about? this is JUST A RUMOR! people are going crazy over this... it might not even be true!

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Better_Memory_Sticks_In_January

Ed, maybe you should have stated that it was just a rumor (don't you guys have one of those RUMOR tags/pic/classification for your news?) or done a little bit more research (not tyring to be mean, it's just that you sure did start some real sony bashing over a measly article, which sony denies... ;))

[SassKwatch]

Keep this in mind the next time you are at an electronics store and the product you are pondering has a Sony proprietary slot.
Can you even begin to imagine the uproar that would ensue if M$ had half the Big Brotherish tendencies exhibited by Sony.(?)

[Kati Compton]

You also have to remember that the % of pda users this afffects is likely to be pretty small. I don't think the average pda owner is using >128mb storage.

I bet this will change, as I predict that PDAs will also be mp3 players for most of their owners.

[Kati Compton]

Oh and Betamax is the standard used in broadcasting by just about all networks in existence worldwide.

No - that's "Betacam", not "Betamax". They're different. Betamax was that home format that competed with VHS. Betacam is the professional video tape format. Both Sony btw.

[Ed Hansberry]

Oh and Betamax is the standard used in broadcasting by just about all networks in existence worldwide.
Was. They finally quit making all betamax products earlier this year.

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed, maybe you should have stated that it was just a rumor
Why would I do that? The CNet site didn't mention anything about it being a rumor. If they are wrong then this whole thread is wrong.

And regardless if it is wrong or not, I stand by all my statements about Sony technology being proprietary and not in the best interests of the market.

[heov]

Ed, maybe you should have stated that it was just a rumor
Why would I do that? The CNet site didn't mention anything about it being a rumor. If they are wrong then this whole thread is wrong.

And regardless if it is wrong or not, I stand by all my statements about Sony technology being proprietary and not in the best interests of the market.

well, i understand your stance and all (along with the discussion on proprietyory software), but PalmInfoCenter & Brighthand have reported it being as a rumour and a SONY PR person said, "It (the news.com article) is inaccurate and based on rumor."
And your post is stated as NEWS, and not a thought or a rumor, and I thought it was misleading. But hey, that's just me and it seems as if people have gotten a good discussion on proprietary software :)

Anway, just wanted to get the word out that people who are furious at sony for dumping MS, really shouldn't be as sony said it was a rumor and the cnet article will appear "foolish."

About proprietary tech, do you think people will be satisfied if the tech is widespread, even though it's proprietory?

[The Big Jay]

Keep this in mind the next time you are at an electronics store and the product you are pondering has a Sony proprietary slot.
Can you even begin to imagine the uproar that would ensue if M$ had half the Big Brotherish tendencies exhibited by Sony.(?)

"Big Brotherish" means watching over everybody. So Sony keeps tabs on everybody using hidden cameras? :?

[Daniel]

I think a lot of companies come up with proprietary products, Sony is big on it and so is Microsoft. Apple was really big on it but have started to steer away from proprietary solutions (Rendezvous is a good example). I would make the point though that a market leader needs to use proprietary designs in order to innovate.

The big problem that I have with it is when these companies do not embrace a standard when it becomes available. Or they do not attemp to start or be involved in the standards making process. Microsoft is a good example (as someone mentioned earlier) with the Office document format. Microsoft has a slightly different attitude to Sony though in that they continue to "embrace and extend" (.DOC, DOM, CSS, Kerberos) whereas Sony seems to just go it alone with many things. This becomes a very serious issue (IMHO) when the standards equal or surpass the proprietary solution.

Take SD over MS, how long until MSPro will catch up to SD? Is the size difference worth the wait or inconvenience to customers?

I personally don't buy anything Sony because of the proprietary nature of a lot of their products. I still feel that they do offer some of the best designed hardware out there but I will not buy it. Add to this their draconian attitude toward MP3 etc. and I just don't see a good enough case to buy Sony. With the whole LabelGate things as well.

I got off the phone earlier tonight with my sister-in-law, she wants to buy a digital camera, she was thinking of buying a Sony so I suggested other options because of the MS slot.

I think that it would be great if Sony would adopt standards, I would consider their products as a viable option but until that happens I won't.

Daniel

[pewter_tankard]

Its only because Sony Ericsson P800 uses memory sticks that I havnt got one yet (besides it not shipping yet of course :? ). I wonder how many sales sony is loosing becasue of their obstinance. :x
That's raises a very interesting point... These big corporates aren't really one big company, more like bands of wandering tribes. I suspect that if you asked somebody (off the record, of course) from the old Ericsson company who now works for "Sony Ericsson" you'd get the reaction that they wanted to put SDIO in the P800.

What is going to happen to this list of products from the Sony companies that are "nearly" ready to ship? I suspect that Sony is hoping that its customers don't actually read Sony press releases.

IMHO every Sony product sold in the next six months (and especially over the Christmas shopping period) should come with a health warning.

Phil

[DrtyBlvd]

Jeez Louise! :D

Forgive ME for being a shareholder and saying, yeah , go Sony go!

Seriously - Sure, some aspect of 'proprietary' can mean annoyance/irritation/whatever to some people, but to have generated this much comment?

If you're railing against the 'big machine' restricting 'little peoples' choice or whatever, then fine - but don't dress it as a critique of a Manufacturer; Sony or otherwise!

There are some real 'knee-jerk' opinions posted in this thread -

DAMN YOU SONY!!! I will never buy another memory stick enabled device ever again!!! :x :x :evil: :evil: :evil: :twisted: :twisted:

I _WAS_ looking forward to eventually being able to use a 256MB stick in my 1 grand cybershot camera. Does Sony want me to go out and spend another cool grand on a camera. This is Sony’s way of saying:
Merry Christmas!!! Now bend over and get what is coming to all those that trusted us.

[INSERT A THREE PARAGRAPH STRING OF PROFANITIES HERE.]


Buy another 128 and stop moaning :lol:

Hmm. Must be the evil-empire Sony and their devil-worshipping marketing people that came up with this scheme.

But of course! Don't you know nuffin? :wink:

Anybody ever stop to ponder the thought that maybe Sony NEEDED to make the change in order to get higher capacity memory sticks ?
THen people shouldn't invest in a product led by a company with such short-sightedness. They said last year (2001) that capacities higher than 128MB were coming. Meanwhile, CF has 3-4GB cards in the works by Pretec and SD cards have 512MB availabe and up to 4GB testing in Panasonic's labs.

Ed - this doesn't do you justice; calling Sony "short sighted"?? I seem to recall (May be wrong!) that you have 'lead' Sony "criticisms" in the past - a few times - ?

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Better_Memory_Sticks_In_January

CNet is crediting this information to unnamed sources and a Sony spokesperson vehemently denies that it is true. According to him, when the actual details come out, the CNet article will look "foolish".

.......... Short sighted? They may make themselves 'liars', in the final analysis, but Sony's vision is 20:20.

Why don't we wait and see?

[Daniel]

Ed - this doesn't do you justice; calling Sony "short sighted"?? I seem to recall (May be wrong!) that you have 'lead' Sony "criticisms" in the past - a few times - ?

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Better_Memory_Sticks_In_January

This is a load, you can't claim that Eds point is invalid just because he has attacked Sony in the past! I know this is a logical fallacy, I just can't remember which one.

Daniel

[Janak Parekh]

Buy another 128 and stop moaning :lol:
With that philosophy, we should just have lots and lots of 16MB Memory sticks.

Ed - this doesn't do you justice; calling Sony "short sighted"?? I seem to recall (May be wrong!) that you have 'lead' Sony "criticisms" in the past - a few times - ?

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Better_Memory_Sticks_In_January
Huh? Wha? Ed Hardy is not Ed Hansberry. 8O

--janak

[DrtyBlvd]

Ed - this doesn't do you justice; calling Sony "short sighted"?? I seem to recall (May be wrong!) that you have 'lead' Sony "criticisms" in the past - a few times - ?

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Better_Memory_Sticks_In_January

This is a load, you can't claim that Eds point is invalid just because he has attacked Sony in the past! I know this is a logical fallacy, I just can't remember which one.

Daniel

No one suggested it was an 'invalid' point (Pun not intended) :wink: ...and certainly not on account of historical "attack" ; your choice of word, interestingly - my point, perhaps too subtlely made, was that Ed does have (amongst others, I'm sure) 'strong' views in general regarding Sony - and that his comments in that particular post were not supported in my opinion by his usual balanced representation of view & fact.

Add to this melange the fact that it is a rumour that was originally quoted, and not mentioned as such and look at the furore that has been caused...

[DrtyBlvd]

Buy another 128 and stop moaning :lol:
With that philosophy, we should just have lots and lots of 16MB Memory sticks.

Ed - this doesn't do you justice; calling Sony "short sighted"?? I seem to recall (May be wrong!) that you have 'lead' Sony "criticisms" in the past - a few times - ?

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Better_Memory_Sticks_In_January
Huh? Wha? Ed Hardy is not Ed Hansberry. 8O

--janak

It is hardly a 'philosophy' to suggest that someone have two cards as opposed to 16; when the necessity for pictures may be satisfied by two 128M ones; and subsequent argument of the camera being the driving force behind such (Size of stored image / required resolutions) is specious; surely the fault then lies with the camera purchase(r) and not the storage medium it uses?

I believe I am correct in asserting such quote to Ed Hansberry - I don't understand the reference to 'Ed Hardy'?

Page 1, Post '7'
Ed Hansberry
Site Admin
Joined: 05 Feb 2002
Posts: 2024

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:41 pm

[Jonathon Watkins]

I just saw this on DPreview:

Sony US has contacted us with an official statement on the CNET story posted yesterday. It reads: "The information presented on CNET's News.com regarding new Memory Stick Pro media has several inaccuracies, which seem based on rumors and conjecture. We urge you and your readers to wait for the official Sony press release." This obviously confirms that there was something to the CNET story but that the entire truth isn't yet available. We know from several sources that there'll be some news at CES next month so my suggestion is that everyone enjoy the Christmas holidays, take lots of digital photos and look forward to new products in 2003.

Lets just see what happens - we've had false rumours before....

p.s. PapaSmurfDan - love the avatar! :D

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Anyway, I think Ed's point is that Sony is constantly looking for ways to create a new standard instead of creating cool devices that support the current standard.

I have to disagree with you here. I think Sony is still one of the most innovative companies around. True, they are innovating around their own proprietary technology, but they are still innovating. How would sony products be any different in terms of innovation had they been compatible with SD or CF? Memory card storage is an essential element of any device. Why not shift resources to improving its speed and performance?
You're right Paul. I mean looking at those technologies... Betamax was the better than VHS (just came too late) and the most serious audiophiles that I know swear by DAT (superior in sound quality to even CD audio)... and to this day, I still believe that the MiniDisc as a portable audio solution is way overlooked by too many people.

I do love many of the things that Sony does. They are undoubtedly amongst the most innovative of companies.

The MemoryStick though goes against this history of innovation though. To me, the Sony MemoryStick did not appear to be driven by their desire to advance or innovate. IMO it was simply them looking for a way to exploit the success of their own name.

ATRAC follows this same road as well... and LabelGate is a joke... In fact those three technologies together: MemStick, ATRAC, and LabelGate all feel like schemes driven only by Sony's desire to make more money and nothing else. If those technologies were better somehow than competing technologies, then I'd say "Go Sony!!", but IMO, they aren't.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Also you guys are seeming to forget the fact that SD basically was forced to advance memorywise faster then CF had in the past.

SD is/was more expensive and had lower capacity and on size alone it would have never made the inroads it did if it werent for bigger memory sizes.
The fact that CF and IBMs microdrive were 1gig and there was sufficient demand for those sizes forced SD makers to up memory sizes quicker then they would have otherwise.
I disagree... Keep in mind that the vendors that helped build this specification knew EXACTLY what they were trying to achieve due in great part to progress of solid state technology at that time (it was only 2 years ago). They wanted something just like CF except much smaller and less power hungry. In short, the same technological advances that allowed CF capacities to be so large at that time helped design the SD blueprint.

It didn't take very long for most PPCs to jump on board the SD bandwagon after it's introduction and it also quickly became a very competitive standard on MP3 players... and keep in mind that this all was happening even before they had introduced anything larger than 128MB. Why? Think about the requirements people usually clamor for with portable technology... smaller? better battery life?

[Fishie]

Also you guys are seeming to forget the fact that SD basically was forced to advance memorywise faster then CF had in the past.

SD is/was more expensive and had lower capacity and on size alone it would have never made the inroads it did if it werent for bigger memory sizes.
The fact that CF and IBMs microdrive were 1gig and there was sufficient demand for those sizes forced SD makers to up memory sizes quicker then they would have otherwise.
I disagree... Keep in mind that the vendors that helped build this specification knew EXACTLY what they were trying to achieve due in great part to progress of solid state technology at that time (it was only 2 years ago). They wanted something just like CF except much smaller and less power hungry. In short, the same technological advances that allowed CF capacities to be so large at that time helped design the SD blueprint.

It didn't take very long for most PPCs to jump on board the SD bandwagon after it's introduction and it also quickly became a very competitive standard on MP3 players... and keep in mind that this all was happening even before they had introduced anything larger than 128MB. Why? Think about the requirements people usually clamor for with portable technology... smaller? better battery life?

Thanks for basicaly proving my point.

SD capacity increased faster then CF did early on thanks to CF.
CF didnt have a mayor competing format nor did it have a competing format to draw tech from, SD had and demands of customers was growing fast for bigger and faster memory cards.

[Janak Parekh]

It is hardly a 'philosophy' to suggest that someone have two cards as opposed to 16; when the necessity for pictures may be satisfied by two 128M ones; and subsequent argument of the camera being the driving force behind such (Size of stored image / required resolutions) is specious; surely the fault then lies with the camera purchase(r) and not the storage medium it uses?
That's your opinion. A lot of people bought Sony cameras with the promise that they would be able to buy higher-capacity cards. To me, it's equally inconvenient to carry 1 extra SD or MS as opposed to 10. They're tiny and easy to lose. I like grabbing and going with a camera not having to worry about memory.

I believe I am correct in asserting such quote to Ed Hansberry - I don't understand the reference to 'Ed Hardy'?

Page 1, Post '7'
Ed Hansberry
Site Admin
Joined: 05 Feb 2002
Posts: 2024

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:41 pm
I'm totally confused about this, now. Ed didn't make any posts at 4:41pm at all. Ed Hardy was the writer of the Brighthand article you cited.

--janak

[butch]

Everyone should wait for the official words from Sony...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0212/02121301sonymsstatement.asp

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Sorry Fishie if we're saying the same thing... either I'm misunderstanding you or you are misunderstanding me:

The fact that CF and IBMs microdrive were 1gig and there was sufficient demand for those sizes forced SD makers to up memory sizes quicker then they would have otherwise.
Let me state this another.

-1GB solid state CF didn't exist when the SD spec was written. In fact, I'm not sure they were even available at 512MB (if they were, then it was for roughly $1,000). IBM microdrives were available at 1GB but they were primarily viewed as luxury item as well. At those prices, there was little demand.
-IMO the advances in solid-state memory technology that allowed CF to advance the way it did has allowed SD to advance. Cause and effect. In other words, if for some other reason, CF didn't advance to 1GB by now, I still believe that memory advances would have brought SD to would be where it is now. If I'm not mistaken, SD is even lagging *behind* their own predicted roadmap for memory capacity (which was charted before SD's introduction).
-Even before SD had proven itself, it had buy-in from mobile technology devices (PPC, MP3, Palm, etc.). If SD had progressed much slower, it would still have buy-in. Why? Because CF forces devices to be larger than what mainstream users would accept. The hottest selling devices at that time (iPaq, Palm, any MP3) could not fit a CF and still maintain their form factor, BUT SD makes it possible without sacrifice. Look at today's PPCs. Only those aimed at power users support CF out-of-box.

In my opinion, SD was created to address the shortcomings of CF. It was conceived to help create new market and new demand. To say that SD advanced b/c of "forced" pressure from CF isn't accurate IMO.

[DrtyBlvd]

It is hardly a 'philosophy' to suggest that someone have two cards as opposed to 16; when the necessity for pictures may be satisfied by two 128M ones; and subsequent argument of the camera being the driving force behind such (Size of stored image / required resolutions) is specious; surely the fault then lies with the camera purchase(r) and not the storage medium it uses?
That's your opinion. A lot of people bought Sony cameras with the promise that they would be able to buy higher-capacity cards. To me, it's equally inconvenient to carry 1 extra SD or MS as opposed to 10. They're tiny and easy to lose. I like grabbing and going with a camera not having to worry about memory.

I believe I am correct in asserting such quote to Ed Hansberry - I don't understand the reference to 'Ed Hardy'?

Page 1, Post '7'
Ed Hansberry
Site Admin
Joined: 05 Feb 2002
Posts: 2024

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2002 4:41 pm
I'm totally confused about this, now. Ed didn't make any posts at 4:41pm at all. Ed Hardy was the writer of the Brighthand article you cited.

--janak


The URL refers to the quote below - not my comment on Ed Hansberrys post - Read page 1 post 7 and you'll see what I mean? I understand what you mean though - Imagine there is a break after the question mark instead of continuing to read the post.

I agree with you about 'grabbing a camera & going' - Indeed thats' my point - to buy a piece of technology as expensive as that quoted, I thnk that one would have ascertained whether one could manage with the storage medium restirctions that existed at point of purchase; to take it to a silly extreme, for example, I certainly wouldn't buy, say, a betamax VCR, on the basis that I was told that the brand manufacturer was going to be 'relaunching' it as the 'way to go' format and that lots of goodies would be available for it - that would be 'trusting' bordering on the stupid! Hence my comment that the purchaser is at fault, not the storage medium ?

[Fishie]

ah k

[Janak Parekh]

I agree with you about 'grabbing a camera & going' - Indeed thats' my point - to buy a piece of technology as expensive as that quoted, I thnk that one would have ascertained whether one could manage with the storage medium restirctions that existed at point of purchase
Ah, I see your point now. So we're actually not really arguing here, I think ;). I still think it's shortsighted of Sony, as does Ed. But yes, I've personally avoided buying Sony cameras due to their Memory Sticks.

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Anyway, I think Ed's point is that Sony is constantly looking for ways to create a new standard instead of creating cool devices that support the current standard.

Indeed, that's the real problem I have with Sony. Wonderful design, wonderful hardware, great functionality...and they stick it with some !*&@(!*(@&!ing memory format that nothing else I have uses. :evil:

[Jason Dunn]

Great discussion! Some random thoughts from me on this...

I have no problem recommending Sony cameras to people who don't have other devices (PDAs, laptops, etc.). It's a closed ecosystem and device interoperability isn't a factor for them. In terms of capacity, the average user will do just fine with a 128 MB stick. Anyone who's serious about photography shouldn't go the Sony route because there's more momentum behind other formats.

I wonder if Sony would have the guts to release a camera that supported both SD and Memory Stick? THAT would be a fascinating marketing experiment!

And here's the interesting thing: let's not forget that SD is the brainchild of Panasonic. It's every bit as proprietary as the Memory Stick technology, and when someone makes an SD card they have to pay royalties on it to Panasonic. BUT...it's physically compatible with MMC, and that makes all the difference in the world: now you have two formats that work in all sorts of devices, and there's incentive for both MMC and SD to keep getting better. Ultimately that's why SD and MMC will be more popular than Memory Stick or the new xD format.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

And here's the interesting thing: let's not forget that SD is the brainchild of Panasonic. It's every bit as proprietary as the Memory Stick technology, and when someone makes an SD card they have to pay royalties on it to Panasonic. BUT...it's physically compatible with MMC, and that makes all the difference in the world: now you have two formats that work in all sorts of devices, and there's incentive for both MMC and SD to keep getting better. Ultimately that's why SD and MMC will be more popular than Memory Stick or the new xD format.
That's good information Jason.

Here's something I'm wondering now... what if Panasonic had either been a manufacterer of Palm or PPC devices before releasing this SD format? Would the Palms, HPs, Compaqs, etc still have adopted the format immediately? I don't even believe Panasonic was involved in either the digicam or MP3 market at the time they released the specs (they've since created one line of TINY SD-slotted MP3 players that I know of).

BTW, is it just Panasonic that was involved? I seem to remember a coalition (Toshiba, Casio, maybe others)...

[The Big Jay]

And here's the interesting thing: let's not forget that SD is the brainchild of Panasonic. It's every bit as proprietary as the Memory Stick technology, and when someone makes an SD card they have to pay royalties on it to Panasonic. BUT...it's physically compatible with MMC, and that makes all the difference in the world: now you have two formats that work in all sorts of devices, and there's incentive for both MMC and SD to keep getting better. Ultimately that's why SD and MMC will be more popular than Memory Stick or the new xD format.

You make a good point, Jason.

MP3 is proprietary, as I remember. So is DivX MP4 format (okay, there is a Xvid format out now).

Yet we don't get very angry about those either. Maybe we don't care about propiety as much as we say we do, only when it doesn't work with anything else.