A bit disappointed about the developement lately ..

[jizmo]

..I mean PPC2002, XScale and stuff.

I used to have iPAQ 3660 that had PPC2000. It could play full screen divx movie with no stuttering what so ever. Then I upgraded to PPC2002 and I started to have frames dropping.

Then I bought my first XScale device, which turned out to be even slower than my iPAQ with 206mhz strongARM. So I switched back to ARM processors.

Is it just me, or isn't anyone else pissed about this situation? Currently we have devices that are slower than the original iPAQs that came out two years ago, thanks to slower processors and OS that eats more CPU than the previous version. That doesn't exactly count as development in my books. :roll:

To get the same speed from ARM processor under PPC2002 that I had with the previous version of the OS, I now have to use JS ipaqclk to overclock the speed of my ARM to 236mhz, shortening my battery life.

MS and Intel should really put their heads together fast to get a fix to this issue. Personally I find it hard to wait for the new OS upgrade, knowing that it doesn't bring support to XScale. It'll be just a little heavier to CPU and slow down our PDA's even further. :(

/jizmo

[Janak Parekh]

Nothing's ever that simple. :(

If anything, an XScale optimized OS won't solve your video playback problem. You need an XScale optimized video player (and there are builds of Pocket DivX that are), plus video chipset-optimized playback, plus more efficient memory buses.

Honestly, we're transitioning architectures right now. That's why you're enduring this hardship.

--bdj

[PapaSmurfDan]

Anyone feel free to correct me and all, since I am still waiting for my Dell. But baised on what I have read so far, this is what I think of the whole mess.

Lower power usage with backwords compatiblity, wasn't the idea behind the move to the XScale CPUs? Also, just because its compatible, doesn't mean its any faster. Take a look at Intel's own site, the 400mhz XScale does not offer that much more raw performace than the old StrongArm 206mhz, but does offer a much lower power useage. Also form what I saw regarding the XScale is a lot of the IO functions are on the main CPU chip, allowing for an easier implementation of the hardware. Even on paper, the XScale is not a step forward, but a step to the side.

Give some time for calculation intensive apps to be optimized for the XScale. Remember, there is a huge StrongArm user base (Anyone have the units sold with SA vs. XScale cpus to this date?). However, I somehow have a big doubt that optimizing the OS for XScale will have the huge performace impact we all want. However, I don't concider Divx movie watching to be my primary use of my PDA (however it is a nice perk :) ).

However, the thing I have noticed the most in the PPC/Palm power users is the constant need to upgrade to the latest hardware (even though there has been no real forward strides). If I owned an StrongArm based iPaq, I would definatly not upgrade my hardware based of what I have seen. Anyone want to shed some light on this for me?

Personally, I am disappointed in the development of PDA's ever since the Apple Newton. Maybe the new batch of affordable PPC's will change my mind on this.

-Dan

[Rirath]

Chill out already. The Dell is the best PPC to date if you ask me. Dual slots, great screen, multi button pushes, etc etc. The V35 and Ipaq are smaller than ever, the higher Ipaqs are coming with biometrics and such... chill. Stop whining about the Xscale and move on, it's a great processor in my book and I'd take it any day over the 200 ARM. As I said before, if you can't take the new devices as they are, stay out. Leave it to people who are willing.

[Janak Parekh]

However, the thing I have noticed the most in the PPC/Palm power users is the constant need to upgrade to the latest hardware (even though there has been no real forward strides). If I owned an StrongArm based iPaq, I would definatly not upgrade my hardware based of what I have seen. Anyone want to shed some light on this for me?
It's called:

- Better displays
- Multiple slots
- Integrated Wi-Fi
- More memory

etc.

Why do people upgrade their computers all the time? Remember that this board is full of power users.

--bdj

[The Big Jay]

Chill out already. The Dell is the best PPC to date if you ask me. Dual slots, great screen, multi button pushes, etc etc. The V35 and Ipaq are smaller than ever, the higher Ipaqs are coming with biometrics and such... chill. Stop whining about the Xscale and move on, it's a great processor in my book and I'd take it any day over the 200 ARM. As I said before, if you can't take the new devices as they are, stay out. Leave it to people who are willing.

People have a right to complain, they also have a right to vote with their pocketbook. If people didn't complain, there wouldn't be progress ;)

[Rirath]

People have a right to complain, they also have a right to vote with their pocketbook. If people didn't complain, there wouldn't be progress

So like I've been saying, don't buy them if you don't like them. And people do indeed have a right to complain. I'm just trying to present the other point of view. And yes, there would be progress. Complaining is not the mother of invention... it just comes along with it. Heck, I do my fair share of complaining... I'm just annoyed by all this bashing of Xscale, Microsoft, Intel, and whoever else comes along. Prices have never been lower, battery life is longer, options are higher, devices are smaller, development is chugging right along.

[jizmo]

Chill out already. The Dell is the best PPC to date if you ask me. Dual slots, great screen, multi button pushes, etc etc. The V35 and Ipaq are smaller than ever, the higher Ipaqs are coming with biometrics and such... chill.

It's just that I do feel a little forgotten as a user and developers. If making the XScale devices work would be a high priority thing to MS, wouldn't you think it would have been done already? It just seems to me, that it isn't, and I'm afraid that the new OS will slow things down even further.

This is a problem to me as a user and a developer. When we code a game, we first make it run in full speed on ARM, and then make it about 20% lighter for XScales. If I'd compare a overclocked iPAQ with old OS to XScale at it's best, the performance could be upto 50% worse.

Of course this is the worst case -scenario. But if you've ever compiled single C-program to both processors, you'll know the difference. I appreciate the power saving it providers, but I bet that 20% undercloked ARM uses about as much power and is as fast.

Stop whining about the Xscale and move on, it's a great processor in my book and I'd take it any day over the 200 ARM. As I said before, if you can't take the new devices as they are, stay out. Leave it to people who are willing.

If you little brat are going to call every opinion posters here whiners, you are going to end up as a very hated person. So just stop it, ok?

/jizmo

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

This is a fair complaint in my opinion. From what I'm reading, the Dell Axim IS a great device with features and advances that people had been dreaming about ever since the first iPaqs hit the streets.

However, the fact is that the current advances (dual slots, better battery, better screens, smaller size, etc.) are being realized by the Dells, HPs, Toshiba's, etc. The advancement by Microsoft and Intel during the same time period has resulted in a slower device.

In time, I'm sure this will be resolved but these results are uncharacteristic of the computing industry (at least since I started using computers about 15 years ago).

[Rirath]

If you little brat are going to call every opinion posters here whiners, you are going to end up as a very hated person. So just stop it, ok?

Thankfully I'm here to discuss, not to be popular. Best advice I can give is to simply stop waiting for the Xscale to be fixed. It doesn't seem like something that's near, and judging from the info I've seen, it seems both costly and time consuming. We're just not there, yet. Soon, soon. Just a few years ago people would go wild over 200mhz processors, now we carry them in our pockets. I'm convinced the Xscales have their own benefits over ARM, even if it does result in a slight slowdown in some situations.

[jizmo]

However, the fact is that the current advances (dual slots, better battery, better screens, smaller size, etc.) are being realized by the Dells, HPs, Toshiba's, etc. The advancement by Microsoft and Intel during the same time period has resulted in a slower device.

My point exactly. The PPC developers have made terrific work and the devices have come a long way from the first iPAQs. I just love the current PPCs. They have provided quality and improvements for our money. :x-mas:

I agree, that this is indeed a very weird turn in computer history. In my opinion MS and Intel should've held XScale back, until its speed could've been fully utilized. People would've been well off with ARM and us, the developers, too.

Like I said earlier, that now we have to make a game engine, that runs fluidly on ARM and then downgrade it to run on these 'faster' processors. In fact, we've been thinking about releasing our forecoming titles as a spesific ARM version and a little lighter XScale version.

/jizmo

[jizmo]

Thankfully I'm here to discuss, not to be popular

It's clear to all of us, that discussion isn't popularity contest by any means, but you should know the difference in arguing about the subject with facts and just calling anybody who disagrees with you a whiner.

But then again, if you haven't figured it by now, I suppose that the chances are that you never will.

Please just let the grown-ups do the talking, and take your constructive "discussion" elsewhere.

/jizmo

[Rirath]

Please just let the grown-ups do the talking, and take your constructive "discussion" elsewhere.

My, aren't we sharp tongued tonight. I'd gladly match you word for word, but this isn't the place. Thankfully this is a field where age doesn't matter, or make one right. It's not a person's age, but their ability and determination that count. I'm sorry I wasn't using punch cards in the 70's to calculate prime numbers, but that's life. Like I said in the start of this, chill. I've been deeply into PC's day in and day out for 12 years now. I'm not the newbie you think I am, for what it's worth.

[jizmo]

I'm not the newbie you think I am, for what it's worth.

*Sigh* Isn't it obvious that the problem was how you act for a guy of your age, not how well you know your computer stuff.

It's pretty much the same to me if you've used computers for ten or twenty years if you're capable to express yourself only the way you do. "it's like this, and if you disagree, you're stupid"

I'm so tired of people who think it's ok to state anything because they're on internet and covered behind their computers. It's not very likely that you call anyone whiner when actually having to face them.

/jizmo

[Steven Cedrone]

Rirath & jizmo,

Please take this "discussion" offline...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[jizmo]

Please take this "discussion" offline...

I apologize for the road this conversation took, and I hope this won't scare anyone away from replying to the original topic. :oops:

/jizmo

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

In my opinion MS and Intel should've held XScale back, until its speed could've been fully utilized. People would've been well off with ARM and us, the developers, too.
That to me would have made sense. Of course, hindsight is always perfect, right? As mentioned, there may be other advances that were realized with XScale such as battery life, but I don't know that we've seen enough hard evidence to state how much this can be attributed to XScale.

Sometimes I wonder then when did MS and Intel know that the XScale was not going to clearly outperform the ARM200. I mean up to until the time that the first pre-release XScale devices were out (I think Toshiba was the first), everyone was led to believe that we would see much faster devices. Certainly neither Intel nor MS did anything to discourage that line of thinking... and both seemed "caught off-balance" when the first public complaints came (If I remember correctly, both were pointing fingers in opposite directions initially). Perhaps this was a problem with testing (or lack of)?

[shawnc]

I'm so tired of people who think it's ok to state anything because they're on internet and covered behind their computers. It's not very likely that you call anyone whiner when actually having to face them.

/jizmo

Jizmo,

Interesting comment. Check your PM for my reaction.