GPS and WiFi on the same unit?

[pkphy39]

Hi,

I'm currently a Palm user in dire need of a handheld upgrade, and I'd like to get some recommendations...

I would use the unit for everything from media (DIVX and MP3) to email/web access to navigation (GPS), but what I'd really like to do (I'm a developer) is get a unit that can have both a GPS receiver and WiFi (802.11b) access at the same time.

Any ideas? Also, with the current crop of GPS receivers, are there any that allow access to the barebones information? So that I could grab it with a custom app that I develop? I realize that half of this post belongs in "Development" and the other half belongs here, so if you just want to respond to the Wireless questions that's totally cool.

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks in advance,
Mark

[JonnoB]

If you need both WiFi and GPS at the same time your current choices are those that have integrated WiFi (Toshiba e740 or HP 5450) and an add-on GPS CF card or sleave. If you want cheap, get the Toshiba... if price is no option, I have heard great reviews of the new iPaq.

[TheNewSteve]

There are a couple ways to do this right now. There are CF GPS units, which go into the PPC, and SocketCom also has a Bluetooth GPS unit, which can talk to a Bluetooth enabled PPC (either built-in or with a Bluetooth card).

Basically, PPC handhelds usually have one SD slot (no SDIO cards for this in most units, so it can only be used for memory) and sometimes an additional CF slot (this can be used for memory or peripherals.

The Dell and Toshiba e740 units have both SD and CF slots. Toshiba's e740 also has WiFi built in, freeing up the CF slot for a GPS unit. Dell has plans in early 2003 for a unit that also has WiFi built in.

Also, the Toshiba units DO support SDIO SD slots, so if you get TOSHIBA's Bluetooth SD card (only the Toshiba card will work in the Toshiba unit for SDIO SD), you can use the Socket Bluetooth GPS and a WiFi CF card at the same time.

Or you could get the European version of the e740 ( http://www.expansys.com has both versions), which has Bluetooth built in instead of the WiFi, then add a lower power WiFi card (SocketCom or Symbol have lowest power use), and you'd be connected to WiFi and Bluetooth for your GPS.

Dell is rumored to have their "new" PPC out next year available with WiFi or Bluetooth integrated, or maybe both, but you might not be able to use both at once, the information isn't clear yet. Either version would give you the same options as with the e740 if you add the card that is not already integrated into the PPC (Bluetooth or WiFi).

The HP Ipaq also has a few sleds available, but I've heard that the 3rd party ones don't work so well for things other than memory. The sleds range from adding one, two CF slots, PC card slots and some add more battery. The new Ipaq has Bluetooth built in, and with a CF slot, you could use both.

Before you go buy any of these, one thing that is a little uncertain is how well they will work together. Bluetooth and WiFi compete for the same frequency bandwith radio waves, and Bluetooth usually will shut out the WiFi. There is development right now for cards that have BOTH Bluetooth and WiFi that work together without interfering with eachother. The PC card version of this should be working soon, which you could use with the Ipaq PC card sled or with a (goofy looking external) CF->PC card adapter, where the entire PC card looks like it's hanging off the top of your PPC. A CF version would likely follow, but this is all next year stuff here.

Since the Bluetooth and WiFi kind of interfere still, I would NOT recommend trying to use both in the same unit at the same time. Instead, I would go for a unit that has WiFi integrated so that you have a free CF slot (Toshiba e740 or the Dell Axim X7, which should be out early 2003) or use the Ipaq with a sled that will accomodate a GPS unit and WiFi.

The newest (and most expensive) Ipaq has both Bluetooth and WiFi built in, but it is not clear whether or not it is capable of using both at the same time. This one is cool, has the biggest screen of the newest ones (save for the Toshiba550g), but lacks a built in CF slot, so you have to buy an additional sled for it, making it bigger than the other units. It also has consumer Ir, so you can program it to be a TV remote. If both connection technologies can work together at once, you can use the external Bluetooth GPS unit wirelessly with it, which would be nifty, or if not, you could get the sled and use your choice of the two and get a CF card for the other. Oh, yeah.. the unit also has an integrated fingerprint scanner... because that would be, erm, useful? Oh well. I'd want an elbow scanner because if they stole your PPC and wanted to use it, it would be much harder for them to get your entire elbow to use than just a fingertip. How 'bout it, HP? ;)

The Toshiba is small for a PPC that has both CF and SD slots, but the screen is very poor compared to the Transflective Ipaq and Dell Axim. Other than that, it's very functional. Battery life is much lower than the other two as well, and it's priced about the same as the Axim ($400-450, whereas the Axim is $300 + $100 for a good wireless card).

The Dell (I have one coming shortly) is the least expensive due to the JIT manufacturing process of Dell and not having to stock them in stores and such to sell them. Also, they will sell SOOO many at their lower price point (about 1/2 an Ipaq), that they will be OK with the low price. With the 2003 version that has wireless communication built in (BT or WiFi? Nobody knows, maybe both together or as options), you'd have similar options as the current Ipaq (although the Dell would definitely be at a much easier price point, which free 1 year service and similar quality).

Hope some of this helps!

-Steve

[msprague]

I am at home now, but tomorrow afternoon when I get in the office I can investigate this. We have an AudioVox Maestro, Toshiba Bluetooth SD, Socket WiFi CF and Emtac Bluetooth GPS. If my boss doesn't have any of those devices checked out I can verify that the Wifi and GPS work together. As far as development goes, this is a good sample:
casey's noSink project (http://www.gotdotnet.com/userarea/keywordsrch.aspx?keyword=NoSink).
I used some of his code to make a basic app that displays heading and speed.

[TheNewSteve]

I think the WiFi and GPS should work fine, it's the WiFi and Bluetooth that use the same area of bandwith...

I guess by saying this you might be testing the same thing b/c testing the Bluetooth GPS unit would be testing the BT and WiFi, just clarifying I guess.

Have a fantastic night. Why does Nashville have a bad hockey team still? The game tonight was entertaining, but still largely dissapointing. :evil:

Sorry, I'm just mad about the Hockey game!!! :wink:

-Steve

[msprague]

I just talked with Jon, my boss, and he said that he has successfully had simultaneous communication with the Bluetooth GPS and a Wifi Activesync connection on his Maestro. He also said that the Toshiba BT SD manual recommends that you NOT do this because of reduced range. It does function however, and he was at a 6 ft range on Bluetooth and 25 ft on the Wifi, but he did not determine what the range limits were. Hope this helps.

[pkphy39]

Thanks for all your help everyone. I think I may wait for the Dell unit with the integrated WiFi (if indeed it comes out Q1 next year). I've heard good thing about the Dell's battery life and that is always a big consideration (and MAN are their prices right on the current units).

Anyway, as a total geek I just thought it would be nice to track my movements (with the pocketPC) and what I was doing when I was where I was each day (is that clear at all?). Anyway, thought it would be nice to throw in a little WiFi open network exploration in the mix as well so my results could hold some more information. Basically an idea integrating parts of the Amsterdam GPS Drawing experiment (http://www.waag.org/realtime/en_links.html) with some stuff of my own thrown in as well.

Why, you ask?

Because I can! What I really want to do is hear back from Polar about my heart rate monitor, to see how I can get the information it's broadcasting as well.

Being a geek rules. If only the rest of the world understood us.

The fact that the WiFi and Bluetooth GPS work together could be a big help - that way the unit won't be crazy heavy with addons, etc.

thanks again everyone for your help. As usual, any further ideas would be great.

[grohl]

I am new to these forums, but I sure have enjoyed reading the discussion that has taken place here. 8)

I am new to the PPC world; in fact, I first started following this page a few weeks ago when I decided I "needed" to get one. I think the thing that did it for me is the wireless issue...Maximum PC (magazine) reviewed the Toshiba e740 and opined about the greatness of "browsing the internet on the throne with a 1Gb Microdrive in the CF slot". I am curious about how "good" browsing can be, with regards to the low-resolution screens. I am around people who have no idea what I'm talking about, and the local electronics stores look at me like I'm crazy.

Thanks to Steve for an excellent post above, shaking down the available wireless technologies. I think Wi-Fi is the way to go, although Bluetooth seems to have quite a few fans. I think I am holding out for cheaper integrated Wi-Fi solutions, like Mark, hoping for that the upcoming Dell products will happen sooner rather that later.

I do have another question to pose, and that is regarding the upcoming 802.11g standard. Would the (theoretical) increased data throughput really matter to PPC users? I know that the standard has yet to be ratified and backward-compatibility with Wi-Fi is supposed to exist. Should I even worry about it? I'll probably wait on setting up a network until that hardware comes out and purchase 802.11b integrated PPC in the meantime...

Mark, I gotta admit, I enjoyed the GPS link. I 've ben checking out www.gpspassion.com for a while, and I think that will definitely be something I'll check out when I finally buy my PPC. I thought I read somewhere about a phone in Asia that has Wi-Fi/PPC/GPS...not sure. I'm no developer, but that GPS data in realtime (I'm a hiker) makes for some pretty cool ideas that I have also. Keep me posted.

[TheNewSteve]

I couldn't tell you for sure about the "g" standard, all I can do is research until FedEx or UPS brings my stuff (!) ... just ordered bluetooth phone yesterday, should be here before weekend is over. (!).

BUT... here's what I DO know as far as how much better it would be on a PPC.

WiFi, which is very commonly used for a PPC browsing experience, as stated above, can do 11mb/s, or 10mb/s with a cable modem. Bluetooth, on the other hand, is limited to 1mb/s tops. And reviews of some Bluetooth CF cards and Access Points called the browsing experience "speedy" or "zippy"... (don't recall which).

So, I would estimate that having access faster than 10mb/s would be great for a laptop or PC, but probably wouldn't be any faster on a PPC. You have to figure that there is a tradeoff for content... (A), the PPC can't process quite as much raw data at once as most PCs (i have an emachines... it might blow up upon synching with the Dell 400Mhz!) and (B) BUT, the content for PDA browsing and such has MUCH less data required. For example, in my T-Mobile brochure (and these very well may be inflated, here is a comparison for data usage:

1MB =350 Web Pages or 350 Emails on PPC
1MB=18 Web Pages or 170 Emails on a laptop

Hmmm... If I'm paying $20 a month for adding 10MB, glad it's on a PPC, that's a BIT more! I'd probably blow $100 if i had a laptop still with a wireless data card that was billed!...

BUT, please, anyone with experience and such step in.

-Steve

[Kaber]

I use an iPAQ 3955, a dual sleeve for my 340Mb IBM CF Microdrive (where all my maps are) and Compaq WL110 WiFi PC Card, a 64Mb Sandisk SD card (where most of my apps are loaded), and have an Garmin eTrex Venture GPS connected via the Com1/HotSync port on the bottom of the iPAQ.

The ministumbler forums on this site (http://www.netstumbler.com) talk A LOT about WiFi, PPCs and GPS.

I originally bought a Pharos iGPS 180, but it had to be plugged into a 12v Cigarette Lighter outlet, so it had to go. It did come with the Ostia moving map software which is really good at auto routing and has real voice navigation telling you when to turn or get off the freeway. It sucks they are charging to upgrade to version 4.0. $25 is a big upgrade fee.

I am also using GarmapCE (http://www.catnet.ne.jp/fukuda/garmap/e_garmapce.html) and NMEAMon and SkyEye (http://www.etree.com/tech/notsofreestuff/skyeye/index.html) (great, easy to make, USGS aerial photo maps)

Wireless is the only way to go with PDAs. IT'd blow your mind how quick you can back up your PDA over a wireless ActiveSync as opposed to a USB/Serial session.

[pkphy39]

Grohl and Kaber - it seems I've found some kindred spirits. Grohl - I've very recently gotten into the whole "health kick" mode (over the past six months or so), and I'm loving it. I've always loved the outdoors, but to be connected at all times (and GPS mapping - drool) is just too good to pass up. Funny enough, my girlfriend (VERY outdoorsy) just made me promise last night that I wouldn't bring my laptop on our next vacation. I didn't, of course, but it would be great if I could promise her that but still bring a PPC with all the capabilities I want.

I've been focusing on WiFi simply because I'm setting up a network at home (today!), and it seems a LOT more prevalent (and reliable) than Bluetooth right now.

I'll definitely be checking out GPSPassion and the other links in Kaber's post. Thanks for all the info guys - can't wait to roam the world with this stuff. I've always loved to travel, and think it would be fantastic to be able to map out everywhere I've been accurately - sure beats putting pushpins in a map on the wall!

Have a great weekend (enjoying my cable modem - FINALLY got it installed).

-Mark

[Bob Anderson]

What I really want to do is hear back from Polar about my heart rate monitor, to see how I can get the information it's broadcasting as well.

Being a geek rules. If only the rest of the world understood us.



1. Did you ever hear back from Polar about how you might be able to pick up their heart rate monitor signals? I think this would be an awesome thing to do as well...

2. Yes, I agree with you... being a geek rules... it's a lot of fun to take different technologies and make them work together when friends or family sit around and watch and they say "whoa... I didn't know you could do that!" :D