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View Full Version : Dude, You're Getting a So-So Handheld?


Ed Hansberry
12-08-2002, 09:00 PM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21116-2002Dec6.html' target='_blank'>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6-2002Dec6.html</a><br /><br /></div>There was a column in the Washington Post this weekend on the Dell Axim X5. The author makes some valid points and no one would claim that either the Dell Axim or the Pocket PC OS is perfect. No device or OS is. Some of his comments though were just plain silly. Let's go through them.<br /><br />1) "That seeming redundancy [of both a CF and SD slot] makes a fair amount of sense: SD Cards are smaller, but CompactFlash cards are in wider use, and with two slots you can use one to add Bluetooth or Wi-Fi wireless networking and leave the other free for extra memory." Well, you can use the CF slot for networking and the SD slot for memory but not the other way around. The Dell SD slot is not SDIO.<!><br /><br />2) "The Axim's 300-megahertz Intel XScale processor seemed more than sufficient, except when it lagged a bit during the display of photos." This was followed by a comment a few sentences later. "...the two-second wait to wake the Axim." I have confirmed with another user that is indeed the case. A bit of a shame, and surprise. I wonder if it is the screen Dell is using? It is a great looking transflective screen, but perhaps Dell cut corners in costs opting for one that takes a second or two to warm up. I know the screen on the 3900 iPAQ is nearly instant. I know it isn't the processor.<br /><br />3) "All this, alas, is a little chunky to carry in a jeans pocket -- 7.2 ounces, 5 inches long, 31/4 inches wide and three-quarters of an inch thick. This size problem gets much worse if you use Dell's SUV of a carrying case, a thick, padded shroud that prohibits toting the Axim anywhere but in a purse or briefcase." Ok, that is correct. It is iPAQ sized and a bit thicker. It does have two slots though. Make your choice. Dual slots or not. You can have the much thinner V35 or the Palm M500 sized h1910 if you want in the same price range.<br /><br />"Then there's the Pocket PC 2002 software, which has defects that Dell can't work its way around." Ok, so, what are they? :? <br /><br />4) "...the need to tap the Edit menu (which isn't actually a menu) to revise most items." Yeah, this is new to the Pocket PC 2002 interface. With the Pocket PC 2000 UI, you could tap anywhere on the screen to put your contact or appointment into Edit mode. Not so with 2002. Why? Well, 2002 now has hotlinks so that items like URL's, email addresses and phone numbers (in the case of Phone Edition) are hotlinks that will launch your browser, email app or dial the number. Ideally, I would like to see a hot zone around the hotlinks that did this but tapping on other items like the name, address or category would kick it into edit mode without having to hit the Edit menu item. The benefit though, as with many other Pocket PC functions, is you can launch a web page from a contact to go to their home page or send them an email by simply tapping on the email address. You can also create documents from within other applications without having to actually launch the app. See <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?id=4017">this column</a> for more information on this feature. Also, it isn't "most items." It is tasks, contacts and appontments (PIM items) using the default Pocket PC applications. You do not need to press Edit to change the cell of an Excel spreadsheet, to change a Word document, to edit an outgoing email or to change PIM items when using a third party utility like Pocket Informant.<br /><br />5) "...the spinning-beach-ball cursor that regularly surfaces..." {shrug} I guess it depends on what you are doing. I never see that with basic apps like Word, Tasks, Contacts, etc. I do with larger apps like Pocket Informant, Excel and Reader. I guess that is the price you pay for having a big rich application. The other alternative is to kill the beach ball and just wonder if you tapped the icon or not. :roll: <br /><br />6) "The Pocket PC handwriting software is particularly maddening. Its letter recognizer accepts regular characters, unlike Palm's Graffiti, but it requires you to write them in three areas -- capital, lowercase, and most numbers and punctuation." Yeah, I loved this one. So, you can either learn to write in three clearly defined areas of the SIP or you can learn an all new alphabet. Ok, whatever you say. It is funny that when you walk into CompUSA or BestBuy and look at the demo units, Pocket PCs have things like "testing 123" or "trial appointment" in memory and Palms have total gibberish because no one intuitively goes up and writes an A as an upside down V. Tell me which one is more productive out of the box. Never mind that for those set on using a Graffiti style of input can use the included Block Recognizer soft input panel. It emulates the Graffiti unistroke alphabet and the more common shortcuts.<br /><br />7) "Its auto-complete word suggestions obscure the bottom two lines of text." Well, you can configure that to be 0-4 lines. Let's see something. I have my word completion set to 3 rows and I typed "This is a test of the word completion feature of the Pocket PC." Using word completion was 59 letters and taps to pick the words and 75 letters without using it. 27% more taps/strokes not using the feature. Yeah, I'd vote for something that would increase my work load 27% any day of the week. :roll: And again, you can turn it off if you don't like it. $10 says when Palm implements this now that they have the horsepower to do so and multitasking may finally become a reality in OS6, it'll be declared magic. :D <br /><br />8 ) "...the Programs screen that fails to list many installed programs..." Huh? How many of you have ever installed an app and the icon didn't appear in the Start Menu or programs screen? And if it didn't, how is that the fault of the Pocket PC? Sounds like a bad programmer to me.<br /><br />9) "I'd rather see Dell apply its cost-cutting talents to the Palm side of the business, where it will find a better operating system, greater liberty to fine-tune it and more potential customers." :lol: How is it that Palm OS licensees are seen to have greater flexibility? The freedom to leave things out it would seem. Office applications, voice recording, full screen handwriting, Audible support, MP3/WMA/WMV support, email, instant messaging, terminal server support, etc. The list goes on. Every single Pocket PC you buy today has all of that and more. No Palm does, and few have most of them. Yet someone like Sony comes up with a non-standard screen resolution (Ok, Handera did it first) that many apps don't work in, and that is declared innovation? Wow. To be sure, Sony has cool hardware, but you still can't listen to music on your NX70 while your device is synchronizing and when you put in your proprietary WiFi card to synchronize Avantgo... oh, wait. <a href="http://www.brighthand.com/article/BrightBytes_Dec_5">Avantgo doesn't work on OS 5 yet</a>. Ok, when you try to email your expense report (you <b><i>did</i></b> remember to install Documents To Go didn't you?) while you are chatting with your co-worker on a third party messaging client you have to install, you can forget it. One or the other.<br /><br />Anyway, he is entitled to his opinion, as we all are, and I have <b><i>occasionally</i></b> been accused of spinning things towards the Pocket PC myself. :wink: It is abundantly clear what device this columnist has been using and that this review is a bit less than objective. Before anyone posts with a flame that we aren't objective, please take a look at the URL in your browser as you read this. You can expect pro-Pocket PC items here. We do call 'em like we see 'em though. Peruse the recent V35 posts here, and ask any one of the sites editors about Connection Manager. The Washington Post though does claim independence except for its editorial pages. This wasn't on the editorial page. In contrast, Pocket PC Thoughts is pretty much one big editorial. :)<br /><br />I am sure when a Palm OS based device can finally do everything a Pocket PC 2000 can do (one step at a time folks) it will be declaired revolutionary. Me? Well, I gotta run. I need to VPN to my LAN, sync email via IMAP4, Pocket RSS and Avantgo, all while continuing to listen to Mannheim Steamroller in my headphones.

Bob Anderson
12-08-2002, 09:53 PM
Ed; I hope you forwarded your excellent analysis of the article to the author and/or editor at the WP. I'm not sure they'll come back and correct anything... but it would be such a shame to have a well thought out response never have a chance at changing their minds!

Good work!

alan williams
12-08-2002, 10:03 PM
Good show, Ed. I read this article this morning myself and was struck by the handwriting comments as well.
Glad to see you guys were on the stick. ;)

mookie123
12-08-2002, 10:08 PM
Ask them if his Palm can send "Doc file" and uplopad it via an ftp client either wirelessly or modem so he can submit his article. (even with professional quality picture editor)

I think not...

Boxster S
12-08-2002, 10:10 PM
Don't be so hard on the guy. He's obviously not a die hard PocketPC user so he is giving his OUT OF THE BOX impressions with the device.

Of course he isn't going to know all of the intricasies of the device and how to go in and change every single option to his liking. It took me at least a couple of weeks or so to get used to using the PocketPC2000 interface and settle down with ALL of its features after coming from CE2.11. Going from PocketPC2000 to PocketPC2002 wasn't challening at all.

I bet if many of you who have only used a PocketPC and were then dumped into Palm land, you'd be equally lost.

If it weren't for forums like Brighthand and PDA Buzz when I first got my iPAQ, I would have been lost.

I guess my point is, you can't expect someone who is used to using PalmOS devices to come right over to the PocketPC OS and expect them to give glowing reviews or know all the ins and outs of the OS. Most of us around here have been using the OS for quite some time and know the shortfalls (and how to overcome them) and the great things (and how to exploit them).

As for his comments about its size, IT IS A BIG FRIGGIN' WHALE!!!!!!!!! :)

Ed Hansberry
12-08-2002, 10:13 PM
Don't be so hard on the guy. He's obviously not a die hard PocketPC user so he is giving his OUT OF THE BOX impressions with the device.
Then he should make that abundantly clear. Judging by his comments, he is has a great bit of knowledge of the Palm, making comments no initial Palm user would have knowledge of.

It would be equally wrong of me to review a Palm (having not used one in sooooooooooo long) without stating that fact and saying I spend at least an hour a day using my Pocket PC.

Boxster S
12-08-2002, 10:20 PM
Don't be so hard on the guy. He's obviously not a die hard PocketPC user so he is giving his OUT OF THE BOX impressions with the device.
Then he should make that abundantly clear. Judging by his comments, he is has a great bit of knowledge of the Palm, making comments no initial Palm user would have knowledge of.

It would be equally wrong of me to review a Palm (having not used one in sooooooooooo long) without stating that fact and saying I spend at least an hour a day using my Pocket PC.

So whenever someone reviews any product, they should say:

"OK now folks, I want to let you know that I own a GeForce Ti4600 and have been using it for 9 months before I go ahead with this review of the Radeon 9700 Pro"

or

"Alright guys, before I write this review of the Audi A4 3.0 Quattro, I want to let you know that I drive an Infiniti G35"


Yeah right :roll: :wink:


I guess my point is, we start sounding like fanboys when we start picking apart generally good reviews like this.

Anyone new to the PocketPC2002 OS after having come from the PalmOS would more than likely have the same observations and conclusions.

Ed Hansberry
12-08-2002, 10:27 PM
Yeah right :roll: :wink:
No, but how much value would you place on the following reviews?

Review of OS-X from a lifetime Windows user?
Review of an SUV from a sport car enthusiast?
Review of John Deere tractor from someone who has never used anything larger than a 3.5 horsepower lawnmower?

Sslixtis
12-08-2002, 10:36 PM
Boxster SAs for his comments about its size, IT IS A BIG FRIGGIN' WHALE!!!!!!!!!

Compared to what?

I have sitting in front of me right now, a HP 568, iPaq 3955 and my new baby the Dell Axim X5 (400Mhz). And to be perfectly honest there is VERY LITTLE difference in their size/weight. And of the 3 devices only the Axim has dual slots.

As for the Article, the writer is obviously a Palm user, once I realized this, his opinion of a PPC became irrelevant. I am 100% PPC biased, and can live with that :lol: Who cares what a small engine mechanic has to say about a Ferrari anyway?

The PPC is not for everyone. If you are only looking for PIM you don't need a PPC, you can make do with a Palm or heck even a cell phone. I try to take these things into consideration when looking to place my old PPCs into a new home. I do want them to be fully used and appreciated after all!!!

Boxster S
12-08-2002, 10:40 PM
Yeah right :roll: :wink:
No, but how much value would you place on the following reviews?

Review of OS-X from a lifetime Windows user?
Review of an SUV from a sport car enthusiast?
Review of John Deere tractor from someone who has never used anything larger than a 3.5 horsepower lawnmower?

When's the last time you've read a car review (Motor Trend, Automobile, Road and Track, Car and Driver, Edmunds.com) where the reviewer actually said what kind of car they personally drive?

Those car reviewers drive EVERY car ever made within a given year. Everything from Hyundais to Ferraris.

Then they might have a roundup of sports cars which may include a Corvette Z06, a BMW M3, and a Porsche Boxster S (all around $50,000). Those reviewers then give their basic impressions of driving those cars.

[In the same resepect, PDA's could be considers the "sports cars" and PalmOS and PocketPC could be considered the M3 or Boxster S]

Those reviewers don't know EVERY single fact abot the car or how to operate every features but they give their best analysis. I mean, not many car reviewers know that you push an BMW M3 SMG into a smokey burnout by holding back on the pedals and doing a couple of button presses with the traction control system. And not every reviewer knows that there a little button under the dash on the Boxster that allows you to raise the rear spoiler at any time instead of just raising at 70MPH.

The point is, reviewers don't always touch on EVERY aspect of a product in a review...but they try their best.

Honestly, when I read your analysis, I thought of those Letters to the Editor that those magazines get whenever a BMW is beaten by a "lowly" Acura or Infiniti in a comparison test :lol:

Timothy Rapson
12-08-2002, 10:48 PM
To modify his last paragraph here is what I think he could have more honestly written as a first paragraph:


Because I am a long-time Palm OS user and prefer the simple quick, but feature limited Palm OS, this is..... what I think of the Axim in general. Dell has done a fine job of bringing the Pocket PC platform to a consumer-friendly price, but otherwise the Axim isn't that special. I'd rather see Dell apply its cost-cutting talents to the Palm side of the business, where it will find a better operating system, greater liberty to fine-tune it and more potential customers."



Rob Pegogaro says:
"Pocket PC amounts to a catalogue of user-interface defects that conspire to waste your time in a thousand little ways:"

Then he goes on to whine about the twirling beach ball.


Now, I have trouble with the whirling beach ball myself, but as Ed says, it is there to let you know it is not locked up (well, OK, "locking up" is something that both ED and the WP writer do't mention.) I don't know what Rob Pegoraro does with his Palm OS machine, but if he does anything but the built-in apps from Palm he has seen a message like "Scanning databases" "Just a moment" or "Reading pictures 101....136....221...." It is almost exactly the same amount of actual time on both my 206 MZ StrongARM Ipaq and my NR70V Clie.

For once, my assessment and Ed's of PPC and Palm OS agree on something. Rob's criticisms of the new Axim are off the mark. Like Rob, I wish that Dell had decided to make a Palm model with the value offered by this Axim, but that doesn't make the Axim a bad PDA.

Kirkaiya
12-08-2002, 11:14 PM
(..a whale) Compared to what?

Well.. compared to the Palm m5xx series, the Viewsonic V35, and the HP 1910. And before everybody yells, "Dual Slots!!!" at once, that's not our point - Even if it had 12 slots, 4 hard-drives, and an integrated salad-shooter, it's slightly larger and heavier than my iPaq 3650, which is itself large compared to the thin Palm PDAs, or the new "thin" pocket-PCs. I don't necessarily think it's a whale, but for a lot of people, there is a max size we're willing to tote around (unless there's no choice), and the Dell is over that limit.


{excerpted} ... I am 100% PPC biased, and can live with that :lol: Who cares what a small engine mechanic has to say about a Ferrari anyway?

I think that's the issue that Boxster is trying to raise.

As someone who owns both a Pocket PC (iPaq 3650, with V35 on the way) and a Palm Vx, I can honestly say I like both of them because there isn't that much difference in the PIM functions and the interface. Yes, there are more configuration options with PPC, which I like, and you can do more with it, but for about 80% of what I do (calendar, contacts, tasks and avantgo), they're pretty much the same - especially with the newer color hi-res palms.

I do have to say one thing - I never upgraded my iPaq to 2002, so I didn't know about the "edit" mode change. That SUX!! Is it possible to turn that off? I hate the fact that MSFT Office on my laptop turns every URL into a link (I have turned that off in Word, Excel and Visual Studio.net).

I like being able to open a contact on my iPaq, and click on the phone number to change it (or add one). Is there a setting to put this back to the way it works in PPC 2000?

Foo Fighter
12-08-2002, 11:19 PM
For the most part I agree with Mr. Pegoraro's review. About the only thing I can fault him on is his flawed criticism of the PPC's input software. He complains about how badly the Letter Recognizer is without knowing that the answer to his problems lay in Block Recognizer...which is essentially Palm's Graffiti. That shows a lack of knowledge...or sloppy test usage at the very least.

Beyond that, it was a fairly accurate review. While I do like the Axim, I would also consider it a mediocre..but solid Pocket PC, overall. However, as an entry level PDA it is very competitive.

I also agree with Pegoraro's view that Dell should have chosen PalmOS over PPC...but that's a whole other thread.

Jason Dunn
12-08-2002, 11:23 PM
When's the last time you've read a car review (Motor Trend, Automobile, Road and Track, Car and Driver, Edmunds.com) where the reviewer actually said what kind of car they personally drive?

Not that often, but I don't see either is a constant comparison to another way. This wasn't a head to head review of a Pocket PC vs. a Palm unit - so why all the comparisons? A device should be evaluated on it's own merits, period.

It was a lame "review" - it's painfully obvious that the guy is a Palm user, and just like I'd never trust myself to give a Palm device a fair review, Palm users shouldn't be expected to give a Pocket PC a fair shake - this is pretty evident in reading this.

Jason Dunn
12-08-2002, 11:26 PM
I do have to say one thing - I never upgraded my iPaq to 2002, so I didn't know about the "edit" mode change. That SUX!! Is it possible to turn that off?

Nope. Microsoft made the correct call when the implemented this - I can't count the number of times I'd go into a contact or appointment on my Pocket PC 2000 device and accidentally tap the screen while looking for info, and be forced to scroll through a slew of blank fields. Besides, which are you doing more often than not on your Pocket PC - editing or viewing? Tapping edit isn't a high cost to pay for having your data easier to view.

Sslixtis
12-08-2002, 11:32 PM
I'm absolutley stunned!! I actually agree with 2 posts in a row from Jason!!! This is going on my Calender :wink:

Foo Fighter
12-08-2002, 11:39 PM
I wonder how much flame mail this guy is getting from irate Pocket PC users? :P

shawnc
12-08-2002, 11:44 PM
9) "I'd rather see Dell apply its cost-cutting talents to the Palm side of the business, where it will find a better operating system, greater liberty to fine-tune it and more potential customers." :

Before anyone posts with a flame that we aren't objective, please take a look at the URL in your browser as you read this. You can expect pro-Pocket PC items here. We do call 'em like we see 'em though. Peruse the recent V35 posts here, and ask any one of the sites editors about Connection Manager. The Washington Post though does claim independence except for its editorial pages. This wasn't on the editorial page. In contrast, Pocket PC Thoughts is pretty much one big editorial. :)

I am sure when a Palm OS based device can finally do everything a Pocket PC 2000 can do (one step at a time folks) it will be declaired revolutionary. Me? Well, I gotta run. I need to VPN to my LAN, sync email via IMAP4, Pocket RSS and Avantgo, all while continuing to listen to Mannheim Steamroller in my headphones.

Just a couple of comments from a non-techie. I think Ed's analysis is thorough and has the appropriate level of detail. I think it's biased but Ed correctly points out that this is a PPC forum. Bias is allowed and even encouraged.

As a long-time ipaq owner (who also has a V35 on order from Amazon) who recently brought a TREO 300, let me say that the things Palm does they seem to do VERY WELL. I love how their PIM is so user-friendly and the installed apps are very functional. They have a built in calculator that is 10 times better than what was installed on my ipaq and far better than the one I purchased from Omnisolve for $30. At the click of a button I can either WIRELESSLY access the internet and read my email. I have had my ipaq for 4 years and have NEVER even able to get my email to sync via avant-go. I just gave up.

I would have never considered going to Palm because the most important thing in a PDA for me is to be able to use Word & Excel. Then to my surprise I read on a PPC thoughts forum how Palm has software available to do this and (this is the amazing part) it works BETTER than on a PPC. You don't lose all of the formatting that you do in Word and you maintain many more of the advanced formulas in Excel. HOW CAN THAT BE?? That's what made me TRY a Palm. I didn't think I would like it anywhere near as much as I do. I also love how the hardware seems so much more appealing than the cookie-cutter designs of the PPC. If I could listen to MP3's on my TREO I would cancel my V35 order and probably (argh) make the complete switch to Palm.

My point is not to bash PPC. I do like my device and am really looking forward to receiving my V35. I just think that many folks lose sight of the fact that the majority of the PDA users are not nearly as technical as some of this community. Ed mentions how he has to "VPN to my LAN, sync email via IMAP4, Pocket RSS and Avantgo, all while continuing to listen to Mannheim Steamroller in my headphones". If that was written in Japanese it would not have been any LESS confusing to me (well I did understand the avantgo and mp3 part :D ). For people who don't need to do what Ed just said, Palm serves most of their needs. If we took the time we spend bashing Palm and directed that energy towards coaxing MS to FIX the myriad problems that the average non-technical user has with PPC, maybe then we could reverse the recent market share trends that PPC has seen lately. MS has got to get out of the habit of adding new bells & whistles BEFORE fixing old bugs. They do it with their desktop OS and they have done it with PPC.

To wrap this up. I read the reveiw and must admit I also found myself thinking........if only Dell would have went with the Palm OS.

Jason Dunn
12-09-2002, 12:31 AM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts - I had a couple of questions/comments.

At the click of a button I can either WIRELESSLY access the internet and read my email. I have had my ipaq for 4 years and have NEVER even able to get my email to sync via avant-go. I just gave up.

I can do the same thing with my XDA. I don't understand your statement - you're comparing a PDA with built-in wireless access to a non-wireless sync client? I've never heard of anyone trying to get their email using AvantGo (well, I think I saw an obscure Hotmail hack once), so I don't quite understand where you're going with this. Could you get the same email sync with AvantGo working on your Palm? Are you saying it's somehow harder on the Pocket PC? That would be more of a fair comparison.

Then to my surprise I read on a PPC thoughts forum how Palm has software available to do this and (this is the amazing part) it works BETTER than on a PPC. You don't lose all of the formatting that you do in Word and you maintain many more of the advanced formulas in Excel. HOW CAN THAT BE??

That's no longer quite true - TextMaker, just released, offers some very, very impressive options for document formatting and round tripping. In terms of Excel, there are third party options, but you're right: the built-in apps that Microsoft gave us are not very capable. :cry:

If we took the time we spend bashing Palm and directed that energy towards coaxing MS to FIX the myriad problems that the average non-technical user has with PPC, maybe then we could reverse the recent market share trends that PPC has seen lately.

I can assure you that we have the bandwidth and energy to do both with equal ferocity. :twisted:

To wrap this up. I read the reveiw and must admit I also found myself thinking........if only Dell would have went with the Palm OS.

Why? Do you think Dell's Palm device would have a sexy new design, hybrid wireless features, or push the envelope in any way? Nope. That's not what Dell does - that's what Sony does. :wink: We've seen some nice innovation from HP with the 5450, and I think we'll see Dell offering a similar device in Q3 2003. Dell doesn't "do" cutting edge - they let others take the risks, which is why they are the monster they are today.

fgarcia10
12-09-2002, 01:18 AM
Sorry, but why Palm needs somebody else to lower the prices on their products? For Palm, more features means higher price, while the PPC is getting cheaper while keeping the same features that Palm as a company(not only Palm users) once called worthless in the "pda" field. But for those people HP responded with the HP1910, a small and sleek device.

I read car reviews very often and there are some bias opinions there too. They are not perfect. But most of the time when they compare two or more vehicles they do it in the same category and there are more than one reviewer involve, ussually there is one for each vehicle and they try each vehicle, etc... And the results is a sum of their opinions. Ah, and YES an Acura or Infinity could drive better than a BMW, tests are perform under exact same conditions and numbers don't lye, feelings are another thing.

mv
12-09-2002, 01:31 AM
The article also says: Write an "l" and then a space and it will replace both characters with a "t." That´s a real problem for some people, but you just have to check "single stroke" in the character recognizer options, and there will be no more "i" s replaced by "t"s

And you can also select uppercase mode. I think this guy never really tried the ppc, it´s another guy who hate MS for some reason.

Of course, that what I think.

Xaximus
12-09-2002, 01:36 AM
I wrote a friendly e-mail to the article author, and invited him to respond to Ed's comments. Here's hoping he takes me up on my invitation. If he writes you a response, Ed, let us know! :)

shawnc
12-09-2002, 01:37 AM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts - I had a couple of questions/comments.

At the click of a button I can either WIRELESSLY access the internet and read my email. I have had my ipaq for 4 years and have NEVER even able to get my email to sync via avant-go. I just gave up.

I can do the same thing with my XDA. I don't understand your statement - you're comparing a PDA with built-in wireless access to a non-wireless sync client? I've never heard of anyone trying to get their email using AvantGo (well, I think I saw an obscure Hotmail hack once), so I don't quite understand where you're going with this. Could you get the same email sync with AvantGo working on your Palm? Are you saying it's somehow harder on the Pocket PC? That would be more of a fair comparison.

Jason, I wasn't very clear hear (partly due to my lack of technical expertise). When I first received my Ipaq I was really looking forward to syncing with my desktop and reading my email on the bus ride into town. It required that I understand things like POP3, SMTP, incoming and outgoing servers. After getting all that figured out, I was still unable to pull my email into my ipaq. I can't remeber what the various error messages were, but I simply gave up. Often I think of syncing up and avantgo as being synonomous and that is what caused my lack of clarity. My point is that I was NEVER able to read my email on my ipaq while syncing with a cable, yet I was able to immediately do this on my Treo without a cable. I realize that its apples and oranges but it seems to me as though it should be easier with the cable.

Then to my surprise I read on a PPC thoughts forum how Palm has software available to do this and (this is the amazing part) it works BETTER than on a PPC. You don't lose all of the formatting that you do in Word and you maintain many more of the advanced formulas in Excel. HOW CAN THAT BE??

That's no longer quite true - TextMaker, just released, offers some very, very impressive options for document formatting and round tripping. In terms of Excel, there are third party options, but you're right: the built-in apps that Microsoft gave us are not very capable. :cry:

This is good to know because all things being equal, I would rather go with MS. But their performance lately has really put my loyalty to the test. It still seems odd that we should have to go to a 3rd party application to do this since the Word on my desktop and PPC are both made by MS. But I can live with that (I guess :wink: ).

If we took the time we spend bashing Palm and directed that energy towards coaxing MS to FIX the myriad problems that the average non-technical user has with PPC, maybe then we could reverse the recent market share trends that PPC has seen lately.

I can assure you that we have the bandwidth and energy to do both with equal ferocity. :twisted:

To wrap this up. I read the reveiw and must admit I also found myself thinking........if only Dell would have went with the Palm OS.

Why? Do you think Dell's Palm device would have a sexy new design, hybrid wireless features, or push the envelope in any way? Nope. That's not what Dell does - that's what Sony does. :wink: We've seen some nice innovation from HP with the 5450, and I think we'll see Dell offering a similar device in Q3 2003. Dell doesn't "do" cutting edge - they let others take the risks, which is why they are the monster they are today.

Actually my thinking behind this is that I seem to be one of the few people (based on reading the post on this forum) who think the Dell is a sweet looking machine. Unlike the HP1910 and the V35, it has the look of an expensive machine. It's just a little thick for me (after 4 years of ipaq+SS2 I have been heartily lusting for thinness). It seems to be the only PPC machine that doesn't look like all the others. And the rubber around the edge is a stroke of genius IMHO.That type of independent thinking with hardware design just seemed more at home in the Palm environment.

Hope this clears things up. Thanx for the reply.

mv
12-09-2002, 01:40 AM
I wrote a friendly e-mail to the article author, and invited him to respond to Ed's comments. Here's hoping he takes me up on my invitation. If he writes you a response, Ed, let us know! :)

he he, i was thinking about doing the same :)

kfluet
12-09-2002, 02:19 AM
I do have to say one thing - I never upgraded my iPaq to 2002, so I didn't know about the "edit" mode change. That SUX!! Is it possible to turn that off?

Nope. Microsoft made the correct call when the implemented this - I can't count the number of times I'd go into a contact or appointment on my Pocket PC 2000 device and accidentally tap the screen while looking for info, and be forced to scroll through a slew of blank fields. Besides, which are you doing more often than not on your Pocket PC - editing or viewing? Tapping edit isn't a high cost to pay for having your data easier to view.

Oooh, I disagree completely. This change drives me crazy. Maybe for the PPC Phone being able to click on a phone number and have it dial right away is a plus, but for me that extra click to edit appointments (which I do often) is a total pain in the butt and extremely non-intuitive. I really wish there was a setting somewhere so you could make it work like PPC2000.

As for the size issue, I agree that most PPCs are just too big. My old Ipaq 3150 and current 3970 are too big to just tuck into a pocket. My old Compaq Aero 1530 had a CF slot and was thin and light enough that you could put it in a shirt pocket without it making your shirt sag. There is a size below which a device becomes much more comfortable to carry and use.

A 1900 with more RAM and a CF slot (even a type I) would be perfect.

sweetpete
12-09-2002, 02:30 AM
The article also says: Write an "l" and then a space and it will replace both characters with a "t." That´s a real problem for some people, but you just have to check "single stroke" in the character recognizer options, and there will be no more "i" s replaced by "t"s


Actually, an easier way without turning that off is to make sure you do your space underneath the solid line. If you do it above the solid line after an i, it interprets it as a t, but if you do below, it maintains your i and gives you a space.

pro_worm
12-09-2002, 02:39 AM
Every time I read the complaints about the new PPCs out there, I love my old iPAQ just a little more. Every fault it has been fixed, from lack of multi-button presses (snap-on Qpad) to lack of PPC 2002 spell check (Textmaker) to dust (You don't notice it after a while.) It's light years from perfect, but the original iPAQ still has a size factor to lust for - not to mention a killer screen, absolute universal compatibility with all software, and problem free performance day in and day out.

I would never trade this dream machine for a Dell 8)

Timothy Rapson
12-09-2002, 03:15 AM
about the "edit" mode change. That SUX!! Is it possible to turn that off? I hate the fact that MSFT Office on my laptop turns every URL into a link (I have turned that off in Word, Excel and Visual Studio.net).


I would like to see that option as well. But, the bottom line is that except for the default being set off "edit" it is no different than WordSmith on my Clie that offers a "view" mode for Ebook reading and an "edit" view for editing. This may make my Mom, who doesn't want to bother with learning how to run a computer, frustrated. It shouldn't bother someone who is spending $300 to get a serious pocket computer.

But, I agree that there should be a way to set the default to edit.

Timothy Rapson
12-09-2002, 03:28 AM
="kfluet
A 1900 with more RAM and a CF slot (even a type I) would be perfect.

What a great idea! A slim PDA, but cheap, and with a CF slot for the cheapest memory and no trade-off between the SDIO version of the MMC/SD size slot vs. cost.

Maybe the new Dell Axim X3 will buck the trend and give us a CF slot in that Palm V/HP1910 size.

portus
12-09-2002, 04:00 AM
I agree to all Ed's opinions but one:


4) "...the need to tap the Edit menu (which isn't actually a menu) to revise most items." ......., it isn't "most items." It is tasks, contacts and appontments (PIM items) using the default Pocket PC applications. You do not need to press Edit to change the cell of an Excel spreadsheet, to change a Word document, to edit an outgoing email or to change PIM items when using a third party utility like Pocket Informant.
That's the point here: inconsistent UI design, which easily leads to confusion and unnecessarily steeper learning curve.

That said, I'd not be too hard on the reviewer. Reviews on popular web sites like CNET, PC Magazines and such more often than not post biased reviews. I am sure that the readers of these popular web sites outnumber easily those of the Washington Post. But what's the big deal? Serious buyers wouldn't make purchase decisions based on just one review. And people who do make their purchase decisions based on this review alone don't know what they are purchasing, anyway. :lol:

Kirkaiya
12-09-2002, 04:02 AM
I do have to say one thing - I never upgraded my iPaq to 2002, so I didn't know about the "edit" mode change. That SUX!! Is it possible to turn that off?

Nope. Microsoft made the correct call when the implemented this - I can't count the number of times I'd go into a contact or appointment on my Pocket PC 2000 device and accidentally tap the screen while looking for info, and be forced to scroll through a slew of blank fields. Besides, which are you doing more often than not on your Pocket PC - editing or viewing? Tapping edit isn't a high cost to pay for having your data easier to view.

Umm... I assume you simply forgot to add, "IMHO", since that's what that is really - your opinion, Jason. And, for you (possibly even for most people), it might be the better UI decision, but i never have any problem about accidentally clicking on a contact's info, in fact, 1/2 the time, I end up accessing contacts by using the D pad to scroll the alphabet, then scroll to the name, and press once (which i can do 1-handed while on the phone, etc).

If I do use the stylus, it's just to scroll to the right part of my list (or click on a tab), then i just tap once; i only tap a field again if I want to edit the contact (I'm a big D-pad user, and I miss my Casio E-11 jog-dial horribly, so I am SOOOO glad the Viewsonic has one!!! )

Anyway - I wish they would have made an option I could toggle, but i suppose I'll learn to live with it pretty quick.... if I ever manage to actually get my hands on my V35 (since Amazon basically screwed me, my order got "stuck", and it's now showing January as a delivery date.. despite my Nov 3rd pre-order ::: rapid spittle flies :::

shawnc
12-09-2002, 04:29 AM
[quote="KirkaiyaAnyway - I wish they would have made an option I could toggle, but i suppose I'll learn to live with it pretty quick.... if I ever manage to actually get my hands on my V35 (since Amazon basically screwed me, my order got "stuck", and it's now showing January as a delivery date.. despite my Nov 3rd pre-order ::: rapid spittle flies :::[/quote]

rapid spittle flies........Hmmmmm, never heard that one but I think I get the picture. If it's any consolation (and I'm sure it's not) Amazon has screwed my order up for the V35 as well. I've sent NUMEROUS emails to customer service about my Nov-5 order that their website shows as being delievered yesterday but not yet shipped. It takes a lot to get me riled up, but Amazon has lost a loyal customer because of how they have handled this situation. Their performance has been very Sprint PCS-like.

alan williams
12-09-2002, 06:05 AM
Don't be so hard on the guy. He's obviously not a die hard PocketPC user so he is giving his OUT OF THE BOX impressions with the device.
Then he should make that abundantly clear. Judging by his comments, he is has a great bit of knowledge of the Palm, making comments no initial Palm user would have knowledge of.

It would be equally wrong of me to review a Palm (having not used one in sooooooooooo long) without stating that fact and saying I spend at least an hour a day using my Pocket PC.
Yep.

While full disclosure is not required, I think a simple mention of "not being a Pocket PC user" would be in order.

alan williams
12-09-2002, 06:09 AM
Not that often, but I don't see either is a constant comparison to another way. This wasn't a head to head review of a Pocket PC vs. a Palm unit - so why all the comparisons? A device should be evaluated on it's own merits, period.
Again, yes. While I think there is some merit to offering a look at how devices stack up, this review went beyond that. This was more a critique of Pocket PC, not the new Dell.

ThomasC22
12-09-2002, 06:10 AM
While full disclosure is not required, I think a simple mention of "not being a Pocket PC user" would be in order.

I don't know, I think the thing you forget is that people who know PDAs tend to separate things into "PocketPC" and "Palm" where as, for the average business user and probably for this writer, they have a PDA and compare any new PDA to their current PDA.

The way I see it the reviewer is targeting his audience which he sees as normal business users who will be opening the box and trying to figure the device out just as he did. In that light, I think his review was completely in line.


Again, yes. While I think there is some merit to offering a look at how devices stack up, this review went beyond that. This was more a critique of Pocket PC, not the new Dell.

Same as above, you're assuming the reviewer is reviewing with the mindset of comparing it with other PocketPCs (as most PDA sites do) where I think what he is doing is comparing it as a whole to other PDAs

alan williams
12-09-2002, 06:15 AM
Sorry, Thomas. As much as I see eye-to-eye with you, I cannot see why tech writers in this day and age with so many different players in this sector, why this distinction is not made more often. Heck, even Parade magazine can make the distinction, why can't the Washington Post?

Same as above, you're assuming the reviewer is reviewing with the mindset of comparing it with other PocketPCs (as most PDA sites do) where I think what he is doing is comparing it as a whole to other PDAs
But he's not really compairing it to a Palm as much as he's just decrying Pocket PCs.

ThomasC22
12-09-2002, 06:22 AM
But he's not really compairing it to a Palm as much as he's just decrying Pocket PCs.

I guess I just don't see the distinction. It's a device, plain and simple, expansion, OS, etc...all contribute to the experience and that is what this reviewer gave his opinion on. I wish more PocketPC manufacturers realized that rather than just package generic hardware around the PocketPC OS and rush it out.

Boxster S
12-09-2002, 07:33 AM
While full disclosure is not required, I think a simple mention of "not being a Pocket PC user" would be in order.

I don't know, I think the thing you forget is that people who know PDAs tend to separate things into "PocketPC" and "Palm" where as, for the average business user and probably for this writer, they have a PDA and compare any new PDA to their current PDA.

The way I see it the reviewer is targeting his audience which he sees as normal business users who will be opening the box and trying to figure the device out just as he did. In that light, I think his review was completely in line.


Again, yes. While I think there is some merit to offering a look at how devices stack up, this review went beyond that. This was more a critique of Pocket PC, not the new Dell.

Same as above, you're assuming the reviewer is reviewing with the mindset of comparing it with other PocketPCs (as most PDA sites do) where I think what he is doing is comparing it as a whole to other PDAs

That's the way I see it. I feel that most of the people here bashing the article are just acting like typical PocketPC fanboys that have been wounded in some way by his words.

Sslixtis
12-09-2002, 08:37 AM
The problem I have with the article is that as soon as Rob Pegoraro, gave the obligatory salute to cost and dual slots he started on what I can only see as an article designed to slowly build to the inevitable conclusion that if it was a Palm it would have been a good device, but since it was a PPC it was HUGE, Not as cheap as you thought, poorly made, and generally flawed.

This was done rather subtly but consistantly:

1)They also make an Axim a handy way to inspect the shots you took with a digital camera when you're away from a computer -- if you've remembered to install the bundled photo-album program from Dell's CD-ROM. (damn Dell they could have installed it for me!)

2)The Axim's 300-megahertz Intel XScale processor seemed more than sufficient, except when it lagged a bit during the display of photos.
(wouldn't happen with a Palm!)

3)But the 32 megabytes of memory in the base Axim configuration will stop you from adding too many third-party applications; trading up to 64MB will cost you another $50. (No problem with Palm they have much smaller 3rd party apps, making their total memory irrelevant, and this PPC is actually gonna cost you more than you think, oh my it seems I have forgotten the dual slots already, besides which it's not like you could put a memory card in them or anything!)

4)The Axim's lithium-ion battery was spent after five days of moderate use( I think I can bias people with the words SPENT impling lousy battery life unlike the Palm and Moderate Use again implying the same thing for the second time in the same sentence!! Bonus woohoo!!)

5)A hefty, metallic docking cradle can recharge both the Axim and a second battery at the same time but isn't included in the entry-level price. ( another bonus sentence, I can imply a bad/heavy cradle and hit the it's not really as cheap as you think line again!!)

6)On its left flank you'll find a button to start and stop audio recordings, plus a flimsy rocker switch to flip forward and back in various programs. ( I can slide flimsy in here even though what I should probably say is too easily moved for my tastes)

7)All this, alas, is a little chunky to carry in a jeans pocket ( Maybe if I say alas here they won't realize where I've been really going since the 4th paragraph, I wont say my jeans pocket i'll imply everyone should feel this way, who cares if it true or not!)

8 )This size problem gets much worse if you use Dell's SUV of a carrying case, a thick, padded shroud that prohibits toting the Axim anywhere but in a purse or briefcase. ( Cool I can get a - wow that sucker is really huge shot in here before I start on how hopeless the MS=Evil PPC OS is!)

And that is just the first half of the "article", maybe Jason or Ed should give us such an "unbiased" review of the Tungsten. Oh, i'm sorry, that would then be called Palm bashing. This whole article was written from the outset with a certain goal in mind weather that goal was a conscious one or not, it is obviously there.

Cheers! :lol: :lol:

ThomasC22
12-09-2002, 08:51 AM
The problem I have with the article is that as soon as Rob Pegoraro, gave the obligatory salute to cost and dual slots he started on what I can only see as an article designed to slowly build to the inevitable conclusion that if it was a Palm it would have been a good device, but since it was a PPC it was HUGE, Not as cheap as you thought, poorly made, and generally flawed.


Hold on there sslixtis, Now I think you're just being paranoid...A few points:

1 - Dell could have installed the Photo Album. That's not a Palm issue that's a "it's footprint is small and consumers don't like installing stuff issue"

2 - Since when are Palm's known for their ability to display photos (or anything color for that matter?)

3 - 32megs is a little small, he was saying "trade up" not "get a palm". Note: he compared the 32megs unit to the 64meg unit NOT to a palm.

4 - Five days of moderate use is accurate. If you want to make Palm look good you say that the PPC lasts for 6 hours where the Palm lasts for five days (which has always been Palm's trick)

5 - Again, not comparing it to Palm, but to the higher end model

6 - Flimsy = easily moved. Same thing.

7 & 8 - Have you SEEN the Axim in it's case. It's case is HUGE. I'm probably going back to my iPaq simply because I can't think of any reasonable way to carry the Axim around right now, it's that huge.

I mean look, if you disagree with the guys opinion that's fine, but keep in mind that you are insulting the man's journalistic integrity with all of this (it's one thing to have a subconcious bias yet another to deliberately be misleading) and making accusations like that based on the above assumptions (or even on his final statements) is just wrong.

My point is this, his issues were fair, just because you can work around something does not mean it's easy to use (the sheer fact that you have to work around it says that) and as an average user these issues are valid.
His palm pushing towards the end was a tad obnoxious, but he still seemed to recommend the Axim (I wish it were a Palm, but still...) and the truth is most of his readers probably are coming from Palm backgrounds so it isn't like he's out of line.

Remember, he didn't write this article for the PDA Community he wrote it for the average user.

Sslixtis
12-09-2002, 09:17 AM
I agree he didn't say Palm every step of the way, that is why I said he was subtle. He just hit every concievable point he could along the way and THEN said palm at the end :D

And the FREE case I agree is HUGE, but, I have never seen a decent free case with a PPC. Heck, I just wish someone would give me a flip cover like the Jornada or maybe a cool clamshell design like the Clie :wink:

I just think the word choices he used were a bit suspcious, that is how I would write a subtly slanted review at anyway. Maybe I'm just projecting. At any rate, I love my Axim (400Mhz) and will keep it until something like the rumoured Toshiba e750 comes out or maybe a Clie with Palm OS6.

Oh yeah, I like the jog dial/rocker switch, so there :P :lol:0
And atleast this article has given me something to do on a slow sunday evening, besides watching 10 hrs of Taken :lol:

Ravenswing
12-09-2002, 11:38 AM
8 ) "...the Programs screen that fails to list many installed programs..." Huh? How many of you have ever installed an app and the icon didn't appear in the Start Menu or programs screen? And if it didn't, how is that the fault of the Pocket PC? Sounds like a bad programmer to me.


I have to admit to having given up on pretty much ALL reviews of anything I know anything about in magazines and the like. (You have to wonder why I pay any attention to them on things I don't know about, but there you go.) This one sounds like the typical, Palm-biased, partisan garbage I've come to expect (as opposed to the typical, Pocket PC-biased, garbage I've yet to see :lol: ).

However, I'm going to pick you up on the above comment.

The guy is used to the system on a Palm. You select programs from something that looks a lot like the Program screen on a Pocket PC. The difference here is that all the programs on the Palm are available from this screen, but the more frequently used programs on a PPC are not, you select them from the Start menu. This could be seen as counter-intuitive, if you wish to see it that way (probably because you are used to the Palm system).

Now the correct defense against this arguement from the PPC side of things is the stupidity of the Palm's application category system. You can decide to only display (for example) system applications on the Palm home page. All other programs vainsh until you switch back to the general view. The number of times I've sat there for several seconds, staring at my boss's Handspring, wondering why I can't find the program I know is on there, only to remember this categorisation feature. That is counter-intuitive and a waste of time (except, of course, when you need it, and then it's vital :roll: )

Just to state my biases in this (full disclosure and all that), I recommended the Handspring to my boss. He wanted to buy am iPAQ, but I persuaded him that what he needed was a simple PDA that would store phone numbers and appointments. The difference in price was quite persuasive too. Two years down the line, he's thinking about an iPAQ again, but at least I can point him at the 1910 which doesn't cost a limb. I, unfortunately, am looking at the 5400 which not only costs a limb, but has features I don't want or need *heaves huge sigh*.

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
12-09-2002, 12:20 PM
While I am a PPC user, I typically don't advocate one device over the other to new users as I do believe that for many, the Palm is the more compatible device.

That said, I think I more-or-less agree with Sslixtis' post on this one. While the information stated by the reviewer was mostly factual (his rundown on the handwriting support was obviously whacked), it seemed obvious to me that his slant was on stating the faults of the device rather than both strengths and weaknesses.

1 - Dell could have installed the Photo Album. That's not a Palm issue that's a "it's footprint is small and consumers don't like installing stuff issue"

2 - Since when are Palm's known for their ability to display photos (or anything color for that matter?)
This is a good example of the reviewer's slant though... never mind the fact that photo display capabilities directly from your digicam media is something that the rival PDA maker don't support, he instead notes that the necessary application is pre-installed and there's an associated delay.

If you want to use the Sports Car / SUV analogy, it's like me stressing the fact that while a Hummer has off-roading capabilities, it doesn't off-road at the same speed that Porsche can handle the freeway. Is that factual, sure it is...

3 - 32megs is a little small, he was saying "trade up" not "get a palm". Note: he compared the 32megs unit to the 64meg unit NOT to a palm.
I disagree. The author's original comment was, But the 32 megabytes of memory in the base Axim configuration will stop you from adding too many third-party applications; trading up to 64MB will cost you another $50.

IMO, the author's implication was that there's limited use out of the 32MB model because you can't install "too many" apps. In order to get a the "more useful" 64MB model, "it will cost you another $50" (sounding to me like entry level model is less of an option).

Of course there's also the option of installing to SD cards, so in actuality the 32MB is not going to actually "stop you"... anyway, you could read his information as factual depending on the angle, but again it's not too useful in explaining options (even to the "average" user)...

6 - Flimsy = easily moved. Same thing.
...and how often do you hear the word "flimsy" used in anything but the negative connotation? It may mean the same thing as "easily moved", except that it's normally stated with a purpose behind it.

He somehow finds a way to represent the fact that the Dell supplies something that most others don't (the jog lever) as a negative.

...but he still seemed to recommend the Axim (I wish it were a Palm, but still...) and the truth is most of his readers probably are coming from Palm backgrounds so it isn't like he's out of line.

Remember, he didn't write this article for the PDA Community he wrote it for the average user.
His assessment was "Only the Axim's limited sound and video capabilities remain to set it apart from Palm competitors in this price bracket" which hardly sounds like a recommendation to me. Even in stating that the Axim has sound and video capabilities, he wants to remind you that it's "limited" (which in terms of sound, I heartily disagree... out-of-box support for mic recording, wav, wma, mp3... what more would the AVERAGE user expect?). Also, what happened to those picture displaying capabilities directly from digicam media??

Again, mostly what he wrote was factual and perhaps it was targeted at the "average user". While I won't attack his journalistic integrity, I will say that this article does NOT do a good job of letting the user decipher plusses and minuses... I'm willing to bet that a rebuttle by someone like a Dale Coffing (I mention him b/c he was at these stores doing this recently) would have provided the "average" user with MUCH more to consider.

Ed Hansberry
12-09-2002, 01:15 PM
4)The Axim's lithium-ion battery was spent after five days of moderate use( I think I can bias people with the words SPENT impling lousy battery life unlike the Palm and Moderate Use again implying the same thing for the second time in the same sentence!! Bonus woohoo!!)
Nevermind that the Tungsten T and Sony NX70 devices get 8-10 hours of battery life just like many Pocket PCs, which equates to 5 days of moderate use.

Ed Hansberry
12-09-2002, 01:24 PM
Hold on there sslixtis, Now I think you're just being paranoid...A few points:

1 - Dell could have installed the Photo Album. That's not a Palm issue that's a "it's footprint is small and consumers don't like installing stuff issue"
Yeah. Palm puts everything in ROM. Well, except the Excel editor, the Word editor, the MP3 player, Avantgo, the email app, the instant messaging app, Adobe Reader, BlueBoard, BlueChat, Copytalk, Dialer, telephone keypad, Palm™ WAP Browser, Palm™ Web Browser Pro, Phone Link Updater, SMS and a bunch of games. But yeah, except for those things, everything is in Palm's ROM. :roll:

Ed Hansberry
12-09-2002, 01:36 PM
The columnist will be online today at 2pm eastern to answer your questions on his review of the Axim - http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/zforum/02/r_technews_pegoraro120902.htm

I cannot make it but if any of you are so inclined, go for it. :) Post a link in this thread to any replies or online transcript.

alan williams
12-09-2002, 02:26 PM
That's the way I see it. I feel that most of the people here bashing the article are just acting like typical PocketPC fanboys that have been wounded in some way by his words.
Well..I feel that some people here might be reacting to the article, but as I Palm/Pocket PC user myself, I just think that our reviewer had a bit of a bias going into this, eh?

DOn't get me wrong, that's exactly the reaction that you're seeing here, but this site makes it's bias know well up front.

Is it possible to 100% non-biased? Good question. It's hard to put aside past experiences when dealing with technology. To me, the articles read like he was making a compairson to a Palm and not giving a review of the Dell. I did get some info about the Axim, but not all that much.

But here's the thing, he's got his right to offer whatever he feels is accurate. If this gent truly feels this piece was accurate, then fine. I wish him well. It reads very much like he's had limited exposure to Pocket PCs, and I don't know if that's who you get to review a new product like this. If the angle of the article (try saying that three times fast) was to show a new user's experience, then perhaps the piece should have had something in it to that effect.

Well...that's my view of it from my desk at least. YMMV. :wink:

MikeUnwired
12-09-2002, 03:08 PM
Don't be so hard on the guy. He's obviously not a die hard PocketPC user so he is giving his OUT OF THE BOX impressions with the device.
Then he should make that abundantly clear. Judging by his comments, he is has a great bit of knowledge of the Palm, making comments no initial Palm user would have knowledge of.

It would be equally wrong of me to review a Palm (having not used one in sooooooooooo long) without stating that fact and saying I spend at least an hour a day using my Pocket PC.

So whenever someone reviews any product, they should say:

"OK now folks, I want to let you know that I own a GeForce Ti4600 and have been using it for 9 months before I go ahead with this review of the Radeon 9700 Pro"

or

"Alright guys, before I write this review of the Audi A4 3.0 Quattro, I want to let you know that I drive an Infiniti G35"


Yeah right :roll: :wink:


I guess my point is, we start sounding like fanboys when we start picking apart generally good reviews like this.

Anyone new to the PocketPC2002 OS after having come from the PalmOS would more than likely have the same observations and conclusions.

I don't get the impression that the review of the Dell was written from a Palm slant. No, I see it written from a very uninformed position on PDA's in general and a lack of connection with technology reality.

Come on, complaining about pop-up word complete text obscuring the bottom lines of text? If that was a permanent situation, maybe he's have a complaint, but, it's very temporary AND why does this even matter?

Some things seemed to be on target -- like the lag in start-up time when the power button is pushed. Many people cite as a reason for being attracted to Palms and Pocket PC's over laptops and now Tablets because they are an instant on alternative. A two-second start-up seems a little long for any PDA I've tried. I'd expect a $750 iPAQ to come on instantly, but I'd also expect the lowest end of the hardware line to lag in features and responsiveness slightly. I guess Dell had to compromise in some areas to hit the price point.

And, what's the deal with the photo display thing? Palm's haven't been known for their photo tools -- there isn't any program in ROM that displays them. At least Pocket Explorer can render your photos if you want to see them on a PPC out of the box. It's not a reach to install a photo-dedicated program on either platform. This is like saying there's no Pocket Slots game on the PPC, so it's flawed. Hey, Palm doesn't come with it either, but you can buy 10 different versions and install them if you want them.

I really like the Graffiti vs. obscure options of choices on the PPC. The big reason people get the text "right" on a demo PPC is that they default to the pop-up keyboard out of the box and when reset. I have to do hard resets on all my demos every couple of days to get crap people enter out of the units (I guess I could do it another way, but that is too time intensive.) Letter recognizer is pretty much equal to graffiti and block recognizer from a mechanical entry point of view -- they all require you to actually pay attention to how you write and to use decent penmanship. If you can't draw a semi-straight line or read your regular handwriting, you're destined for failure on either platforms. Keyboards also require attention to letter selection, no formation skills needed. Transcriber will fail in most demo situations as it has not been trained, but will provide better results as the user fine-tunes the training.

Journalists aren't experts on what they write about for the most part. They know a little about a lot in some cases -- enough to make them dangerous.

======================================
BTW, I've used Palm OS devices since 1998 and have, over a roughly one-year period had a love/hate relationship with PPC's. Ultimately, I chose the Pocket PC Phone Edition Siemens SX56 as my PDA because of it's converged communications ability and larger-than-Palm screen (Sony excepted.) I learned to love my PPC's finally, but the learning curve was much longer for me. I use Block Recognizer on my PPC's as I am good with Graffiti on a Palm and used to it. I own both the aforementioned PPC Phone and a Palm Tungsten T, but, the Tungsten is for professional reference only (and a few games I already owned for Palm OS.) I also use a Logitech io pen -- to tie my paper and digital lives together...

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
12-09-2002, 04:25 PM
I don't get the impression that the review of the Dell was written from a Palm slant. No, I see it written from a very uninformed position on PDA's in general and a lack of connection with technology reality.
I agree that he seems to be uninformed, but it also appears to me like he was reviewing the Dell with Palm expectations as opposed to just learning what the Dell can truly do.

Some things seemed to be on target -- like the lag in start-up time when the power button is pushed.
This I completely agree with. A 2-second delay would be very annoying and that would come real close to spelling "deal-breaker" in my book.

And, what's the deal with the photo display thing? Palm's haven't been known for their photo tools -- there isn't any program in ROM that displays them.
That's my point exactly. He's griping about features that aren't even supported on the Palm platform. The ability to pop in your Digicam's CF card and be able to view them without the overhead of file conversions is a step forward. Bickering about speed (particularly when these photos are probably bordering on 1MB each) is ignoring the advancement itself (as if a better option existed for you to view pics on the road w/o logging a laptop).

I really like the Graffiti vs. obscure options of choices on the PPC.
I would think that more options is better, right? Each person can pick one that works and stick with it. Even better, if people like using an on-screen keyboard, they can do so without eating up the precious real estate that it does in a Palm. With respect to input options, I can't see any argument that would not have the PPC at an advantage here.

Journalists aren't experts on what they write about for the most part. They know a little about a lot in some cases -- enough to make them dangerous.
True, true.

I will say this about Palm. I won't get into which device has a longer learning curve assuming you never used either before, but I will say that once you mastered both, the Palm IMO is extremely simple and efficient in comparison to the PPC. I especially miss the "don't-think-about-it-twice" stability of using HotSync versus ActiveSync. So, I think I can see the merits of using one device over the other, but it's a little annoying when at the end of the review, all he can say is that aside from the "limited sound and video capabilities", nothing separates a Dell from the Palms at the same price point?

GO-TRIBE
12-09-2002, 06:06 PM
I hate that edit click, to change a contact/appontment!

Jonathan1
12-09-2002, 07:53 PM
I personally found the review to be pretty good. The hacks on the PPC such as:
Pocket Word and Pocket Excel, but Palm users can get the same or better Office compatibility with such applications as DataViz's Documents to Go, now bundled with many Palm handhelds.
Microsoft's Outlook personal info manager -- but now it's Outlook 2000 instead of the current Outlook 2002
Microsoft doesn't offer Pocket PC manufacturers much flexibility to customize their implementation of the operating system
Were pretty fair.

With few exceptions such as comparing Word and Excel on the Palm with its PPC counterparts. There ARE alternatives to the bundled apps. But therein lies my biggest complaint - you shouldn’t NEED to replace the apps that are on the PPC. (Be they P-Word, P-Excel, Media Player or PIE.) Is that not the point of the Pocket PC in the first place? That it has Word and Excel support out of the box. It does but the 2 apps are so pathetically under powered that anyone that really wants to use Word and Excel files have no choice but to go out and buy replacement apps. If we had to do the same with the MS Office apps on the PC we would all be up in arms over it. Why are poor versions acceptable on the PPC? (Don’t say that its because it comes bundled with the PPC and we should consider ourselves lucky. You can be dang sure that the price of P-word and P-excel is bundled into the license price of the PPC OS.) I’ve stopped making excuses for the PPC OS and its core apps.

OK Somewhat off topic but still PPC related.

My PPC was stolen 2 weeks ago. I have a countdown going. If I don't hear some hard info by January 31th about a new and "improved" PPC 2003 system I'm getting a Clie or a Sharp Zaurus. I'm done playing the waiting game for an updated OS for the PPC. Ed you bi***ed me out before about complaining about the OS. I don’t think a 2-year time frame is unreasonable for a solid update for the PPC esp. with the money and resources at the disposal of Microsoft. (PPC 2002 was NOT an update it was a splash of paint over the existing OS with a nice new set of bumpers.)
I'm holding off after the holiday season because if you think about it why would MS announce a new OS right at the time of the holiday shopping season. That could kill sales. So I'm hoping to hear something in Jan if not I'll go somewhere else for innovation.

I consider myself a fair weather fan in sports and am also finding the same is holding true with PDA’s. I have no compunction about leaving the PPC platform if they don’t work for my loyalty. As of…what is the date? December 9th. I have seen very little forward momentum since the Pocket PC’s initial release to keep me loyal to this format. Any innovation has come from the blood and sweat of the developers who have to pick up the slack that MS has left. Examples: Pocket Informant, multiwindow app for IE, tweaks to make IE look like IE6, Landscape apps, Word and Excel replacements, PowerPoint apps, etc, etc, etc. Things like this should already be in the OS IMHO.

I still have my old EM-500 with a 256MB SD card for e-books and audio. I have no problems using a Palm or Linux PDA for the rest.
TICK TOCK TICK TOCK…we are waiting Microsoft.


PS- I'm more then willing to sing praises of the Pocket PC once again if MS comes through. Again I'm a fair weather fan.

Kati Compton
12-09-2002, 08:08 PM
The integrated slide-out keyboard on the Zaurus is sweet.

I think that the Tungsten would have been better off with one of those instead of the slide-out graphiti, btw. But maybe that's just me.

Ed Hansberry
12-09-2002, 08:09 PM
My PPC was stolen 2 weeks ago. I have a countdown going. If I don't hear some hard info by January 31th about a new and "improved" PPC 2003 system I'm getting a Clie or a Sharp Zaurus. I'm done playing the waiting game for an updated OS for the PPC. Ed you bi***ed me out before about complaining about the OS. I don’t think a 2-year time frame is unreasonable for a solid update for the PPC esp. with the money and resources at the disposal of Microsoft.
Name one other OS that gets a total revamp every 2 years.

Apple? Nope. Windows? Nope. Linux? Nope. Palm? Nope. Symbian? Nope. There was a lot of under the hood work in PPC 2002. MOre changed in PPC 2002 from PPC 2000 in 18 months than Palm has done from 1997 through 2002. You can complain all you want about 2 years, but it is 100% unrealistic. Heck, Office suites from MS don't get full revamps every 2 years and those are far short of an operating system.

Ed Hansberry
12-09-2002, 08:38 PM
Holy cow! If there was ever a doubt that he wasn't biased before, that doubt can be laid to rest.

http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/zforum/02/auto_r_technews_pegoraro120902.htm

That is fine - his opinion. Just be wary of any reviews from him in the future. He may be coming at them from a non-objective angle.

ThomasC22
12-09-2002, 09:23 PM
Holy cow! If there was ever a doubt that he wasn't biased before, that doubt can be laid to rest.

http://discuss.washingtonpost.com/zforum/02/auto_r_technews_pegoraro120902.htm

That is fine - his opinion. Just be wary of any reviews from him in the future. He may be coming at them from a non-objective angle.

Weeeeelllll....yeah, I think this managed to change my mind. I was all for giving the benefit of the doubt but this was pretty sad. Take this quote:

Franklin, Tenn.: You mentioned in the Dell Axim review that you didn't like Character Recognizer or word completion. Why not just turn off word completion and use Block Recognizer, the Pocket PC emulator of Graffiti? That basically makes your input method identical to a Palm.

Rob Pegoraro: Yeah, but then I could just buy a Palm and not have to put up with all the other Pocket PC nonsense. I thought it better to focus on the things that differentiate Pocket PC from Palm.

and then...

Tampa, Fla.: Rob, if you had to buy a PDA this afternoon, which one would you choose Palm, Pocket PC, or other and why?

Rob Pegoraro: Uh, wasn't that clear from the column? Palm. Pocket PC is too much work for too little reward.


I still think the guy made some valid points BUT this guy isn't approaching the issue from a normal consumer he is approaching it from a Palm-bias, and I'm sorry I ever defended the guy.

Warwick
12-09-2002, 11:53 PM
Well I know im not bias, I love anything mobile.

All I will say is that I loved the look of my new palm V when I took it out of the box, it was soo small and looked so good.
I tried to use it, looked for the document editing program, realised it didnt have one. After downloading an editor, I tried to write something, realised I had to learn grafiti.

Into the future.......

I loved the look of my new HP545 when I took it out of its box, ok it was $300 more than I payed for the palm but it was color. I opened word wrote some stuff in plain english and then started writing software for it, as a windows programmer it was a snack to program for. The learning curve was much much smaller, hence it was straight into production, no stuffing around.

My thoughts....

Palms have their place just as Pocket pc's do. I now have an Ipaq 3870 and have wireless connectivity throughout my house and office, that says it all doesnt it.

Once you own a Pocket PC you never go backwards only forward to the next Pocket PC :)


I personaly am sick of the bias, I dont think the people here are bias, I think they used a Pocket PC once :P thats all. How can you not love them. If you truly open your mind, remove any bias, Pocket Pc wins hands down.

Well thats my opinion anyway :D

Fishie
12-10-2002, 12:55 AM
That guy is so full of it.

Annyways all machines have theyre place IMO, all except for the Palm that is.

alan williams
12-10-2002, 05:07 PM
I still think the guy made some valid points BUT this guy isn't approaching the issue from a normal consumer he is approaching it from a Palm-bias, and I'm sorry I ever defended the guy.
That's all I was saying, Thomas. ;)

Actually, this is something that should have been included with his article, eh?

ThomasC22
12-10-2002, 10:52 PM
Actually, this is something that should have been included with his article, eh?

I think that he thought he did, and obviously some people (like you) got it. It's just the dense ones like me that missed it :wink:

robpegoraro
12-11-2002, 12:44 AM
Fascinating discussion... I'll try to answer all the questions I've gotten here and in e-mail, so this may be a little long.

First, full disclosure about my Palm and Pocket PC experience: I've owned a Palm III and a Sony Clie N610C, but I have also followed the development of Windows CE from just about the beginning (I was ready to use a sub-laptop like the NEC MobilePro 750 for reporting on the road, until I discovered Pocket Word had no word count back then). Over the last two years, I've tried out the iPaq H3650 and H3765, Toshiba e310, T-Mobile Pocket PC Phone Edition and the now-infamous Axim X5.

Second, my alleged bias: Mine is for simplicity and elegance, not for one operating system or another. I see the real competition for handheld organizers as not other handhelds or laptops, but paper. And I see the first job of a handheld organizer as, in fact, helping to organize things.

Wireless Internet access, WMA playback or connecting to the LAN over VPN can be nice bonuses, but if the device is clumsy at the core tasks of making sense of my contacts, schedule and whatnot, what's the point?

That is where I find Pocket PC software lacking. As some of you have noted earlier in this thread, it has more than its share of little inconsistencies, bugs and slowdowns that make it slower to use and harder to master than the competition. A Palm only demands one big sacrifice, that of learning Graffiti; on balance, that's less labor for the user, since all of the Pocket PC input methods also require learning of their own.

(Palm has room for improvement too; see my review (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55397-2002Nov2.html) of the Tungsten T for just a few of the things I'd like to see fixed in the Palm OS.)

Meanwhile, I find that many of PPC's most-touted advantages may not matter much in practice. Take multi-tasking [audible gasp]; how often can you do two things at once on a 3.5 in. screen? Think about it: With a Palm or a Pocket PC, either way you're usually switching from one program that fills the screen to another, albeit with a shorter delay on a Palm.

I'm not saying that Pocket PC devices don't have specific uses at which they can excel. But for the readers I'm trying to address--home users who just want a small box to track their friends' birthdays, memorize the grocery list, store a map, display a few photos--I don't think PPC is a good fit. And since Pocket PC is the only OS you can get on the Axim, it's fair game for criticism.

I certainly could have expressed some of these thoughts better in the review (like every other piece written on a deadline, which would, um, be all of them).

In particular, I didn't explain why I only wrote about the letter recognizer. I did that because I think that's the best of the four options. The onscreen keyboard is only useful as a backup. Block recognizer works, but then you have the same approachability problem as Graffiti. Transcriber can function really well for limited input, but for writing more than a sentence I find it either too slow or too inaccurate, depending on its settings. It's also unwieldy for filling in a form, like the "new contact" screen. So I critiqued the input method I'd recommend to a Pocket PC user.

(I'd love to see a Pocket PC use a BlackBerry-style keyboard, like Handspring has done; when I talked about the flexibility Palm licensees have, that's what I had in mind.)

Finally, about that chat, which seems to have so enraged a few of you... thanks for showing up! :onfire: There was a lot of trash talking going on back and forth, and all I was trying to do was keep up with it all. So you saw me as curt and pithy as I ever get. I hope this posting (which has gone on for almost as long as the original column!) gives a better idea of where I'm coming from.

Cheers,

Rob

Fishie
12-11-2002, 04:19 AM
Yup, we can see where youre coming from.
As an impartial observer(I got rid of my pocket PC becouse it didnt suit my needs, currently waiting for an intermec 6651)its plain to see youre Ed Hansberry Palm edition.

[post edited by moderator for name-calling]

Janak Parekh
12-11-2002, 05:44 AM
Second, my alleged bias: Mine is for simplicity and elegance, not for one operating system or another. I see the real competition for handheld organizers as not other handhelds or laptops, but paper. And I see the first job of a handheld organizer as, in fact, helping to organize things.
Thanks for participating in the discussion. Honestly: you should state the above bias in your review. There are more people than you could think that view a handheld as a computer as more than just an organizer, but you don't make that distinction in your article. The number of people I see using Palms to play games on the subway or in various venues is tremendous. A lot of people have very simple lives, organizationally, but they love the additional facilities a handheld computer can deliver.

In fact, if someone needs only an organizer for looking up phone numbers I'd recommend they get a cheap m1xx unit. The Pocket PC, for that, may be overkill, and so is the Tungsten T. But if I show them what else my Pocket PC can do, their eyes are opened. :)

--bdj

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
12-11-2002, 11:16 AM
POST-EDIT: - I've just discovered that Steve Cedrone removed the original post by Goodlord... which is a good thing...

Goodlord,

In case you do revisit this thread, let me say that I am not a big fan of MS, so being a fanboy is not the reason I choose a PPC. I travel internationally and can listen to MP3s non-stop for 10 hours on my iPaq (w/PC card sleeve). I study both Thai and Japanese as my US version of the iPaq provides me with the hooks to load both types of fonts and the ability to INPUT and VIEW materials in those respective languages. As someone who currently works in Germany (but lives in the US), I have another program that actually vocalizes helpful German phrases to me to assist in everyday situations. I wake up in the morning to whatever song I choose thanks to my iPaq's alarm capabilities and the help of 3rd party software. When taking pictures with my digicam, I can easily slap the CF into my PPC and preview my pics on-the-spot w/o the need for my laptop. ...and of course I use all the PIM features to their full extent.

I DON'T spend any time showing off to friends what my device can do. On occasions I've seen some arrogant Palm users try to prove to me that their Palm can provide whatever I truly NEED from a PDA... and I need only list some of the things above for them to question me no longer (I don't even ask, "Can your Palm do that?"... we all know the answer...).

If you look at the market shares, it's easy to see that there is a VERY significant percentage of people that choose PPC over Palm (and obviously vice versa). To assume that they ALL choose PPC b/c they feel MS will rule the world is EXTREMELY presumptious and ill-informed.

As for Ed Hansberry, let me say that for those of us who choose the PPC and find it more beneficial, Ed Hansberry is IMO one of the greatest sources of information available in the handheld community. The benefit provided by his contributions and his passion for the platform is more than welcomed by all in this community.

If you want to come and state an argument for the Palm, then that's all fine and good, but spewing fire (in which you have nothing substantive to say) adds up to little more than troll noise.

Ekkie

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
12-11-2002, 11:34 AM
Fascinating discussion... I'll try to answer all the questions I've gotten here and in e-mail, so this may be a little long.
Extremely well stated. While I wasn't thrilled with the review, I really appreciated (and understood) this detailed and civil response.

My thanks for taking to time to join in Rob.

gpyetan
02-11-2003, 11:35 AM
Hi there folks,

I have been reading this discussion with interest. I have been a long time swapper between both palm os and pocket pc based machines and currently find myself dithering over a new purchase yet again ... to palm os with the tungsten or to pocket pc with the axim x5 or ipaq 5455 or loox or or or...

The one thing I notice with most posters is that most have a preference and fiercely defend their choice.

I have found that both systems have their advanatges and disadvantages.

1) The palm (and I have no experience of Sony machines but obviously my comments don't apply tot he nr/nx series) are smaller.
2) The palm's by and large seem more efficient in their use of resources therefore they can get away with smaller batteries for the same or slightly more battery life further because they use lower power processors which of course can do less their machines operate for longer than the equivelant pocket pc with the same size battery. Obviously you can produce a ppc which will go on for months without a recharge hook it up to a nuclear reactor and it will go on for ever. Comparing like with like however it is true to say that on average ppc's have a shorter battery life than the equivelant palm.
3) It's hard to explain but I always found that the palm series machines seemed to have for me anyway a certain je ne sais quoi ref user interface. It just seem to have that indefinable element which I call 'thing'.
4) I have found that there seems to be more useful and innovative software (FOR MY PURPOSES) on the Palm. I have not yet found anything on the PPC yet which matchesmathpad (if anyone knows of something as good which does the same job please let me know). Ironically one of the things that is driving me away from Palm at present is the fact that though I love the size and shape of the tungsten I want navigation software (specificaly tom tom city maps) and little if any is currently compatible with palm os5). Furhtermore I would like to use the seiko ink link and I'm not sure if that is compatible either... the penalties of being an early adopter of new technology are manifest. PPC benefits in this case because it had its last os update some time ago.
5) When PPC touters talk about the fact that the palm shows messages such as searching databases this is the equivelant of the PPC hourglass (generic tuerm for watch faces/long case clocks etc ... icons meant to indicate system otherwise being engaged). I would agree however I would also point out that I have never seen a system busy icon (of any description) on a palm screen as often and for as long as I've seen it on a ppc screen (note I have not used a ppc with an xscale processor other than in a demo in a shop my ppc's were an hp jornada with a keyboard an hp 548 and lastly an ipaq 3660 which I used for over a year .. i tend to get upgrade itis too often to keep any of them beyond that point). Trying out the tungsten I can honestly say its speed is stunning and I hhave trouble believing that a ppc can match it in the general responsiveness stakes (though of course with the horsepower under a ppc bonnet I'm sure that it can playback mp3/mpegs better).
6) Handwriting recognition on both lots of machines is patchy. I learnt graffiti in five minutes (basic strokes and alphabet and punctuation - this is not an exaggeration as I timed myself). I ended up using grafitti on th ipaq cos it was the only reliable input method (FOR MY PURPOSES) I could use. I tried for a year to use transcriber cos the holy grail of handwriting recognition has to be translate it as I write it. When one letter in 5 is recognised correctly I give up. So I ended up using the same thing on both lots of machines. I accept that this might be my failing but I have freinds with ppc's who use grafitti also and agree that whilst their is a tiny learning curve it is small and at least it is consistent and accurate. I am quite willing to accept that this is my failing but how do you explain all the other users who do the same thing.
7) Those who say that the plm is simply a diary are talking nonsense. My current palm m515 has installed

minicalc
mathpad
mathupro
ultrasoft money
agendus
backgammon pro
pocket chess
tom tom city maps
avantgo
worldmate
mcfile (under evaluation)
natara project@hand (under evaluation)
bahsoft bankbook (under evaluation)
nsbasic
pocketc

in what way do these represent software with different capabilities to the pocket pc (i'll grant you that my pda does not have media player or a picture viewer though one was supplied with it or divx players) but the palm m515 never claimed to be a multimedia machine the sony versions do hwoever and the palm tungsten can certainly do these things. As for bluetooth and connectivity well the rviews I've seen and my own experiences of bluetooth suggest that I've had far more problems with the pocket pc when trying bluetooth connections than I have with the palm.

Now before you all flame me and send me anthrax samples I would say that I admire bill gates and think microsoft is a great company. I like the pocket pc.

I happen to think that it is incredibly powerful (most people do not need this much computing power in the home let alone in the hand - though they like to think they do)

1) It is incredibly expandable. Yes the palm has its expansion capabilities but come on just look at the sheer choice and volume of after market add-ons the ppc brings to the table.
2) Well I've already metnioned it but the multimedia capabilities are phenomenal. Yes the palm tungsten and the sony machines are capable but lets be honest with the ability to put a mcrodrive in a ppc or even a 3gb cf flash card is there any competition here... sony continues to nobble its devices with the memory stick and then not bring out any beyond 128mb and palm sticks with the sd cards which whilst bigger than the memory stick have yet to grow.
3) Its quick (but lets be honest) it doesn't search its address book as quickly as a palm...but it can play movies and mp3's very nicely thank you.
4) Whilst both palm and ppcs are stable (in my experience until you start throwing 3rd party software at them and then depending on the 3rd party devleoper they can both get very unstable very quickly). I have to say that at present partially through circumstance the palm os5 is sufferinmg from the minor incomaptibilities that come from being a new os trying to run software from an old os. In 6 months it will be more stable and in 1 year more stable still and will have more software. The ppc is stable and software brought out now is guaranteed to work. Lets not pretend however that this is due to inherent superiority in ppc v's palm. Its simply due to the relevant points in the sdlc. Will ppc 2003/4 still run current apps well or are we all going to suffer from nothing being available until someone writes it.
5) You can develop for the ppc using vb/vc (yes you can for the palm as well using appforge I think but come on its an extra layer.
6) Getting basic text/spreadsheets into the pc from the ppc is far easier than with the palm imho however the basic built in apps do lose formatting. I think anyone who expects a completely seamless transition from the desktop tot he handheld and vice versa is bluffing themselves and is being unrealistic. these things are not pc's but by and large they are easier to use with the pc apps.
7) They've just got a lot cheaper. the Dell Axim is unbeleivable for the money and if people are fair it is no bigger than the jornada 568. Come on don't compare something with multiple card slots with somethign that requires sleds to get the equivelant expansion or worse wth something that can't take additional cards. That's not to say that I will defintiely buy a dell axim.

8) The bsuiness of thrid party apps being more powerful on either machine is I think complete twaddle. Yes some apps on the palm are more powerful and some on the ppc are more powerful. At the end of the day what deffines usage/choice and usability on most is personal preference. Pocket informant was excellent but sluggish. Iambic Agendus is quick but doesn't look quite as pretty. Mathpad to the best of my knowledge does not exist on the ppc but other things do such as mind mapping apps. I want both and this is my point its a case of horses for courses. Buy what you want from the system you wan't for the right reasons not becaue you think you'll look stupid to those around you. If you pander to peer pressure you'll end up with something that won't actually DO THE JOB THAT YOU WANT IT TO DO AND WORK IN THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO. Argue and disagrreee but for god's sake do it amicably without calling people names.

Me I'm just a quivering bundle of indecision. If I go ppc then I've got decision to make on which one. (for me it would either be dell axim - the faster one with additonal card addons or ipaq 5455 or tosh 330 or or or ). If its palm then its the tungsten and the worry about whether the apps I need to use will be pmade comaptible in the near future or will I have to wait a year. In the meantime dixons in the uk has a buy now pay later scheme (2004) which is tempting me to jump right now but sadly they don't have the ipaq 5455 thought hey have a good deal on the tungsten.

Please folks I am not rubbishing the ppc in favour of the palm. Both are excellent and if they do what you want them to thats great. I'm totally undecided.

Shumbuddy help me.

gpyetan
02-11-2003, 11:51 AM
Actually should have said also. Why can't microsoft produce reader for the palm. There are reader formatted books for sale which I wan't to read on the palm. Most palm e-books are formatted for both ppc and palm.

Ed Hansberry
02-11-2003, 03:13 PM
1) The palm (and I have no experience of Sony machines but obviously my comments don't apply tot he nr/nx series) are smaller.
I don't want to go point by point into this because it usually degrades into a flame war, but there are counterpoints to each point you made. The H1910 is smaller than the M500 series and in many dimensions smaller than the Palm Vx series.

Palm Vx
h 3.2 in
w 4.7 in
d 0.4 in
m 4 oz

M500
h 3.1 in
w 4.5 in
d 0.4 in
m 4 oz

M505
h 3.1 in
w 4.5 in
d 0.5 in
m 4.9 oz

h1910 iPAQ
h 2.8 in
w 4.5 in
d 0.5 in
m 4.2 oz

Just wanted to caution you about broad sweeping statements that may have been trou a year or two years ago no longer are. The battery life is another example. The Tungsten T and iPAQs get very similar lives. So good luck in your quest for a new device. Just throw out all preconceived notions about a PalmOS vs Pocket PC device and start with a fresh sheet of paper. :) You may be surprised on some issues you thought were cut and dried. :way to go:

gpyetan
02-11-2003, 03:36 PM
Hi there,

I never siad that it wasn't possible to make a ppc smaller than a palm nor did I ever claim that palm was always longer lived in the battery department. I have not seend the hp 1910. To the best of my knwoeldge its not available in the uk yet. Further as I have read about problems with it in terms of performance for all the things where ppc's are superior to palms I'm not interested AT PRESENT as I don't think its for me. If you strap the 3500 mah battery tot he back of the dell axim I have no doubt at all that it will outlast any colour palm (though probably not the b&W palms) likewise if palm produces a 3500 mah battery addon for the palm then I have little doubt that the palm with said battery will outlast the equivelant ppc.

I have no preconceived notions of either system. I was talking about my experience. I have only read about battery life on the toshiba/pocket loox/hp1910/xda etc etc etc. For the most part the comment sare not positive concerning battery life. If you read real world reviews the stated battery lives tend to fall someway short of the manufacturers claims. Common sense however dictates that a big battery will last longer than a smaller one and thus when I see that a palm with a 900 mah battery will last a long as if not longer than a ppc with a bigger battery I beelive that my statement about basic efficiency and the relative horspeowers of the two machines making a big difference to real world away from a power source usability are valid. That said, again, I would not put a palm tungsten in a race with a dell or a compaq with the extended battery. I still want to knopw why newer pocket pc's are still struggling to match the hp 568's much vaunted battery life especially given the newer lower consumption processors. If one want sto arguye about size isn't there now a pda watch based on the palm os ... see how silly this can get. Yes the hp 1910 is smaller according to the mesaurments posted but hten you have to make comrpomises on the pocket pc capabilities. With the palm os 5 you have the latest fastest most capable palm os. Thus I would be hoping to compare the palm os 5 machines to the latest newest fastest greatest pocket pc's - this might be the wrong view of course and please understand that I took no offence from your post. I have owened both systems and I like them both.

JustinGTP
10-15-2003, 02:43 AM
Take a look at this and you can see some comparative results of the reviewee in question (LOL) :D :

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=172724#172724

-Justin.