ViewSonic Will Update Documentation on V35

[Ed Hansberry]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/28446.html' target='_blank'>http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/28446.html</a><br /><br /></div>Woo Hoo! You did it! 8) ViewSonic has been monitoring <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=45166">our thread on V35 memory</a> and will be updating their documention and web pages to make it clearer to consumers they when they buy the device, only about 36MB will be available to them. <br /><br />The Register's Andrew Orlinski contacted ViewSonic late yesterday. " 'We were made aware of the situation by Pocket PC Thoughts. There is 64MB but because of the operating system image less is available to the user. We're using a new type of memory,' Duane Brozek, PR director at ViewSonic said. ViewSonic will amend its marketing material and Brozek says the second edition of the User Guide has already been revised. Brozek says it was 'an inadvertent mistake'." <br /><br />Great job! As I said in my original thread, the V35 looks like a compelling device even with the lower amount of available RAM as long as the user knows how much will be available to him or her.

[Boxster S]

Well, that is all well and good...but what about us who have already purchased the device? :cry:

[Ed Hansberry]

Well, that is all well and good...but what about us who have already purchased the device? :cry:
You can still return it - you've had it only a few days. Given the "new type of memory" comment I think this is NAND ROM. Nothing wrong with that. It is just part of the decision process now, just like the HP h1910 having 46MB of available RAM and no SDIO slot - which the V35 does have. The key is now users have the correct info with which to make a decision.

[enemy2k2]

This is still quite a nice machine, and competitive with the iPaq 1910. Though with the recent news I think I would rather have the latter, if it weren't for Dell - our saviour :D

[jloyola]

:evil: I really wanted a Viewsonic but memory is more important to me than a beautifull screen. So HP and Viewsonic ditn't it well for Xmas. My next Pocket PC will be a Toshiba: Memory, SDIO good batery and screen.

[Janak Parekh]

:evil: I really wanted a Viewsonic but memory is more important to me than a beautifull screen. So HP and Viewsonic ditn't it well for Xmas. My next Pocket PC will be a Toshiba: Memory, SDIO good batery and screen.
If you want all four of the above, you should really be considering a 3900-series iPaq. Their price is going to take a drop once the new 5450 comes out..

Hey Ed, can you find out from your contact what the price difference is between 16MB NAND ROM, 32MB NAND ROM, and 32MB NOR ROM? I'm curious as to why they're going to so much trouble to use NAND.

--bdj

[Bob Anderson]

Score another one for consumers!

It's "community activisim" that really can make a difference. Kudos to Pocket PC Thoughts staff for enabling the forums to exist... and allowing manufacturers to see our thoughts.

P.S. IF memory is important to you, and you've bought a V35, for God's sake... RETURN IT!!! The only way manufacturers will quit having these "mistakes" is if it becomes too costly to make them in the first place!!! (I'll bet you that HP really makes sure they understand color depths and screen displays after that Jornada debacle a while back!)

[fgarcia10]

So, not only they made a "MISTAKE" with the amount of RAM we can use; but also with the amount of ROM they said the device has. I though 32MB of flash ROM memory was enought for PPC2002 premium. :evil:

After playing with both (hp 1910 and the V35) units at my local CompUSA, it is still a close call. If you want to be able to do more right of the box, go for the V35, but if you only wants to replace your old Palm you would very happy with the hp 1910. If you don't mind the memory issue, of course. :wink:

[Ed Hansberry]

So, not only they made a "MISTAKE" with the amount of RAM we can use; but also with the amount of ROM they said the device has. I though 32MB of flash ROM memory was enought for PPC2002 premium. :evil:
BUt if it is NAND ROM, not NOR ROM like in Jornad J560's and all iPAQs save the 1910, then you cannot execute the OS out of ROM. So, the full 32 MB deal fits in the NAND ROM, but upon booting the device, it is, I think, immediately copied out to RAM for execution. See http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?id=5227

[Gen-M]

Correct me if I'm wrong....

iPaq 1910 - PPC 2002 Professional, 16mb nand ROM, 64mb RAM - 48 usable but WMP, Term Server, etc. must be loaded in RAM, SD mem slot
Tiny form factor, curved. $299

Viewsonic - PPC 2002 Premium, 32mb nand ROM, 64mb RAM - 36 usable but WMP, Term Server, etc already in ROM, SD/IO slot, Thin - but not tiny form factor, Boxy. $299

Close call :D

[jeasher]

Correct me if I'm wrong....

iPaq 1910 - PPC 2002 Professional, 16mb nand ROM, 64mb RAM - 48 usable but WMP, Term Server, etc. must be loaded in RAM, SD mem slot
Tiny form factor, curved. $299

Viewsonic - PPC 2002 Premium, 32mb nand ROM, 64mb RAM - 36 usable but WMP, Term Server, etc already in ROM, SD/IO slot, Thin - but not tiny form factor, Boxy. $299

Close call


Don't forget that the V35 has a longer battery, but the H1910 has a swappable battery. Actually, I don't see why a swappable battery is such a big deal: it raises costs because you need to buy another battery to use the feature! But if you're a power user...

[cpoole]

Correct me if I'm wrong....

iPaq 1910 - PPC 2002 Professional, 16mb nand ROM, 64mb RAM - 48 usable but WMP, Term Server, etc. must be loaded in RAM, SD mem slot
Tiny form factor, curved. $299

Viewsonic - PPC 2002 Premium, 32mb nand ROM, 64mb RAM - 36 usable but WMP, Term Server, etc already in ROM, SD/IO slot, Thin - but not tiny form factor, Boxy. $299

Close call


Don't forget that the V35 has a longer battery, but the H1910 has a swappable battery. Actually, I don't see why a swappable battery is such a big deal: it raises costs because you need to buy another battery to use the feature! But if you're a power user...

I had to send my computer away to get the battery repaired/replaced because it was not holding its charge. I suppose that if you are going to get a new pocket computer every year, this is not an issue but if you want to keep it for a couple of years, the replacable battery is pretty attractive.

[Chris Spera]

In my opinion, while I appreciate ViewSonic updating their DOCUMENTATION, what they should do is change the type of ROM they are using. XIP ROM is much preferrable to what ever kind they are using. There's no way that using XIP type ROM is going to cause them to pass on an addtional cost of $200 - $300 to consumers.

In my opinion, we've learned a lot in the last 2 years since PPC2002 was released and 3600's were upgraded to the new OS. 16MB ROM's aren't big enough. 64MB of RAM is the MINIMUM acceptable amount of available RAM in a Pocket PC.

This price revolution that's going on is exciting; but its going to be short lived in my opinion if user's find that they are giving up major amounts of RAM to make up for cheap ROM that doesn't support XIP, something that most of us are used to, and I think, now expect.

But then again, this is must MY opinion...


Christopher Spera

[Jason Dunn]

In my opinion, while I appreciate ViewSonic updating their DOCUMENTATION, what they should do is change the type of ROM they are using. XIP ROM is much preferrable to what ever kind they are using. There's no way that using XIP type ROM is going to cause them to pass on an addtional cost of $200 - $300 to consumers.

It's funny though, isn't it? There are these cheap units coming onto the market, and we were all saying "Wow! We give up nothing and save $200!". Looks like there are some sacrifices that are made to get to that price point.

It makes me even less impressed with the early CNET reports "You give up nothing!" - sheesh, yeah, right. :roll: Don't these guys do ANY research?

[jizmo]

I hope the idea of removable battery will also go trough to them. It's competitors, Dell and iPAQ have both removable batteries. It's a must if you travel, or if one wants go have a device with more resale value. A PPC with broken battery is worth next to nothing, a very bad investment :evil:

If Viewsonic had this feature, it'd be on my shopping list (and on many others, I suppose). It'd be a killer device against iPAQ 1910, just like 1910 would be if it had 300mhz processor like Viewsonic has.

These products are so close to each other in size / features, that I dare to claim, that the company that will upgrade their product first, will steal the customers from the other.

/jizmo

[Chris Spera]

It's funny though, isn't it? There are these cheap units coming onto the market, and we were all saying "Wow! We give up nothing and save $200!". Looks like there are some sacrifices that are made to get to that price point.

It makes me even less impressed with the early CNET reports "You give up nothing!" - sheesh, yeah, right. :roll: Don't these guys do ANY research?

Yes it is, actually... but its also a bit sad. These price drops were received so well. I bet many other people will feel as decieved as we do about these hidden sacrifices.

I'm certain nothing intentionally deceptive was done here, but I like any consumer want to know all of this up front BEFORE I buy a unit so that I can make an informed choice.

Based on this information, I won't be purching a V35, nor will I be recommending it to anyone who is in the market for a PDA, low end or not. 16MB of RAM is a lot to give up on such a limited device (honestly, every Pocket PC is limited, despite the amazing things Pocket PC Techs can do with a memory upgrade.).

Storage Cards like CF, SD and MMC do provide an alternative, but I'm not completely satisfied with that solution. Storage Card memory is substantially slower than native RAM, and isn't always recognized as quickly as it could or should be after a soft reset.

Again, this is just me; but devices like the V35 and the hp h1910 that use portions of RAM to run apps out of non-XIP based ROM's aren't 64MB machines, and go against the currently accepted paradigm of a usable Pocket PC. These machines should have MORE factory installed RAM to make up the difference; or it should support XIP ROM. I'd accept either...

Christopher Spera

[Sven Johannsen]

On the other hand...while I agree that the Viewsonic method of bit counting seems Arthur Andersenish :) and is different than what we are accustomed to, it is not outlandish. How much Ram do you have in your desktop? 256M? That's when it is off. How much do you have left after you turn it on, load the OS and any startup apps? That's the RAM you have left to run Word, Doom, MathCad, whatever. Same goes for the ViewSonic. Not what we are used to, but the Viewsonic doesn't work the way we are used to.

As far as how much that leaves for our use, I don't think 36M is insufficient. For me maybe. For many users on this board, maybe. But what do you do with that RAM that eats it up? For the most part you load apps into it, don't you? You can do that on a flash card. Doesn't affect performance that much. The app has to load into RAM to run anyway, whether it is loading from storage RAM to program RAM, or storage card to program RAM. I think the vast majority of users won't install more than two or three additional apps on their PPC. So if you are just using the built in apps, or loading additions onto the flash card, the 36M will be fine for the average user.

Problems start when you want to use the SDIO slot for something other than memory. Then your files and apps need to be in RAM. But again, the percentage of buyers this effects is probably small.

If you get over the belief that you were lied too, and look at the Viewsonic for it's features, based on an understanding of how it does business (very similar to how a desktop works) it's not a bad device, and certainly could be the right device depending on your needs.

[Kirkaiya]

I think that, for a lot of people, the difference between 36.5 MB of (usable) RAM and 64 MB isn't going to mean much.

Before I die in a barrage of flames, let me clarify: PocketPCthoughts.com readers, despite protestations of innocence, are not the typical PDA user.

The typical PDA user would (and should) probably be pissed about deceptive advertising (ahem, Viewsonic!), but if this memory issue had been advertised up-front, a la the HP 1910, I have a feeling that a lot of people would have been fine with it.

Personally, coming from a 32 MB Ram iPaq 3650 (with no integrated slot!), going to 36.45 MB is still a 4.45 more than I had, in a smaller, lighter, brighter device with a built-in slot.

I've said it before, but - even at Microsoft, where almost everybody is given a PocketPC (mostly iPaqs, including the 3975 for a lot of new hires), people don't even KNOW how much memory they have.

We have one new hire, and when I saw her iPaq, I said, "hey, is that a 3900 series?", and she looked at me as though I had asked her for the cube-root of Pi. It was a 3975, and when I told her "oh, cool, you have built-in BlueTooth", I might as well have told her she had built-in purpleFoot, for the reaction she gave.

Granted, she may be atypical for the average purchaser, but a lot of people aren't going to care about NOR (XIP) vs NAND ROM, or how much memory it has, as long as it's "enough". There is sooo much built into the PPC 2002 OS & App suite, that for the VAST MAJORITY of people, 36 MB is probably fine. I mean, hell, it's got all the PIM stuff, a messenger client, pocket Word, Excel, and I think the Terminal Svcs client all built in (correct me if I'm wrong there).

For gamers, and hardcore PPC people, 64 MB may be the "minimum" requirment, but for actual users (and I am a heavy PPC user), it's probably fine. I could just as easily claim that any serious user MUST have 128 MB of RAM, and if you don't get yours upgraded by one of the aftermarket companies, well, the device is just worthless.... but for most of us, even, that's not true.

[Ed Hansberry]

I don't know if it was this thread or another so I'll say it again. I definitely consider myself a power user, but I install everything I can to SD. My 64MB iPAQ has 36MB free right now and I have a bunch of junk in my My Docs folder I need to purge and just haven't. So that means I am using 28MB right now. A 36MB device would give me 8MB free. I could live with that and I know Joe Consumer could for the most part.

The key is information. If I buy a device with 64MB and it comes with 63, as the iPAQ does, that is OK. But 36? No. I should be told upfront. Period.

[Boxster S]

I don't know if it was this thread or another so I'll say it again. I definitely consider myself a power user, but I install everything I can to SD. My 64MB iPAQ has 36MB free right now and I have a bunch of junk in my My Docs folder I need to purge and just haven't. So that means I am using 28MB right now. A 36MB device would give me 8MB free. I could live with that and I know Joe Consumer could for the most part.

The key is information. If I buy a device with 64MB and it comes with 63, as the iPAQ does, that is OK. But 36? No. I should be told upfront. Period.

EXACTLY!!! You guys can try to justify it all you want and say that the average user isn't a "power user" or that it's more than enough memory. THAT IS NOT THE POINT!

They marketed the device as a 64MB device when it was in fact a 36.45MB device. THAT is the whole issue at hand. We didn't get what we paid for.

If they are going to do things differently than what has been established in the PocketPC community (XIP memory), they should CLEARLY tell the consumer first hand what the deal is...just as HP did with their iPAQ 1910.

You people that are saying "that's enough memory"...that's not the point. The issue here is not whether 36MB is enough memory, it's whether what Viewsonic did was right or not. If you bought a V8 Mustang and found out that it was only running on 6 cylinders at all time, you'd be PISSED!

I may not use the extra memory on my V35, but I paid for it, and that is what was marketed to me. There is no excuse for it one way or the other for what they did. I am however glad that they are trying to fix things though.

[disconnected]

I installed EUU3 on my iPAQ 3975 recently, and I think it required 12MB free space. I'd been sloppy enough in adding stuff that I actually had to move a couple of things to get the 12MB free in the Storage part (I didn't try moving the Storage/Program slider and don't know if the requirement was for 12MB in the Storage part, or total). I'd think this could cause a problem with the Viewsonic if you'd installed any apps at all to main memory.

I did see a Viewsonic in a Chicago CompUSA, and I thought the screen looked really good; I beamed it a couple of themes, and the colors looked just a bit lighter than on my iPAQ, but I had to put them side by side to see the difference. I'm still thinking of buying my husband one for Christmas. He has my old iPAQ 3630, and it really needs replacing (very bad battery life, and now a stuck stylus), and except for peanut reader and bubblets (which I installed for him), he hasn't felt the urge to add anything to it. I'd love to have the Viewsonic in the family; I actually like the bird-look.

[Kirkaiya]

{excerpted} ... You people that are saying "that's enough memory"...that's not the point. The issue here is not whether 36MB is enough memory, it's whether what Viewsonic did was right or not. If you bought a V8 Mustang and found out that it was only running on 6 cylinders at all time, you'd be PISSED!

I may not use the extra memory on my V35, but I paid for it, and that is what was marketed to me. There is no excuse for it one way or the other for what they did. I am however glad that they are trying to fix things though.

I totally agree with you about the fact that Viewsonic mislead us. On the other hand, I'm not sure that previous deception is the point of this thread, exactly - the topic started out with the news that Viewsonic is changing their documentation/advertising due in part to the commentary on this site.

And then, people starting raising memory issues, etc, and we got to here :wink: Since it's hard to take any kind of position on Viewsonic's touting this as 64 MB other than "It was sleazy/deceptive/low-down", etc., I guess people who were upset at the sudden down-sizing were venting a bit.

HEY - They DID change it on the site!!!
Memory | Includes 32MB ROM and 64MB SDRAM (36.45MB user accessible) so you can store more e-mail, photos and music.

That's from the ViewSonic website. (http://www.viewsonic.com/products/pocket_pc_pocketpcv35.htm)


Off-topic:
Anyway - After my 3rd call to Amazon, my shipping charges were waived, but.. my Viewsonic doesn't look any closer :( Supposedly they're trying to ship it from one of their other regional distrubution center, since the one in Lexington KY (which serves Maryland) is out of them now (I ordered on Nov 3rd).

[R K]

BUt if it is NAND ROM, not NOR ROM like in Jornad J560's and all iPAQs save the 1910, then you cannot execute the OS out of ROM. So, the full 32 MB deal fits in the NAND ROM, but upon booting the device, it is, I think, immediately copied out to RAM for execution. See http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?id=5227

Hmm.... I think this contradicts what Boxter S said in another thread.

Here are more pics after I have installed all of my apps and stuff on my PDA. There IS a useable portion of the ROM, and I put it to use

What is the point of providing a few megabytes of free space on the ROM when stuff that should be on the ROM is put in RAM?

I don't know if it was this thread or another so I'll say it again. I definitely consider myself a power user, but I install everything I can to SD. My 64MB iPAQ has 36MB free right now and I have a bunch of junk in my My Docs folder I need to purge and just haven't. So that means I am using 28MB right now. A 36MB device would give me 8MB free. I could live with that and I know Joe Consumer could for the most part.

Do you realize that a 36MB device would give you 8MB free?
That is 8MB to run as program memory. I don't think 8MB of program memory is enough for PPC2K2.

[Ed Hansberry]

I don't know if it was this thread or another so I'll say it again. I definitely consider myself a power user, but I install everything I can to SD. My 64MB iPAQ has 36MB free right now and I have a bunch of junk in my My Docs folder I need to purge and just haven't. So that means I am using 28MB right now. A 36MB device would give me 8MB free. I could live with that and I know Joe Consumer could for the most part.

Do you realize that a 36MB device would give you 8MB free?
My totals included the 12MB that the OS and 4-5 apps were taking up that were running. That 8MB free was available for 8MB more of files, 8MB more of running apps or some combination thereof.

[Daniel]

Well, that is all well and good...but what about us who have already purchased the device? :cry:

Well that sucks, it would have been nice if they said "oh bugger, does it? Well here's a new one!". Anyway, BoxterS, you said you liked it anyway so at least you achieved something right?

Daniel

[jeasher]

I will receive my V35 in approximately 15 minutes. It will be the first Pocket PC I have ever used because I had been using a Visor Deluxe. After finding Pocket PC thoughts since starting research on a new Palm, I have been to this web site almost every day. I didn't get the Palm. It's funny because I used to hate the Pocket PC platform, not because the OS was so bad, but because the machines themselves were huge, with poor battery life and more features than they could handle.

The V35 and the H1910 changed my purchasing decision entirely. Why would anybody looking for a mid-priced PDA even consider a Palm? With the Axim included, these three PDA's offer something for everybody at the same price point. The average user (myself included) can buy a fine machine with a Palm form factor. The power user can buy a high performance machine with a brick (traditional) form factor. The size of the unit facilitates the tradeoffs on power and memory because if size didn't matter I would have an Axim (nice machine).

[Dan Theman]

"...if this memory issue had been advertised up-front, a la the HP 1910, I have a feeling that a lot of people would have been fine with it."




Remember that HP made the EXACT same mistake with the 1910 that Viewsonic made with the v35 and made the disclaimer you are talking about after a similar uprising. Viewsonic may be guilty of not doing thorough research on the topic, but they aren't the first to make the memory mistake. At least they are making an effort to come clean.

Now, whether there is enough memory left is a WHOLE other question.

[Jason Dunn]

Remember that HP made the EXACT same mistake with the 1910 that Viewsonic made with the v35 and made the disclaimer you are talking about after a similar uprising.

They did? There was? 8O I don't recall any such "uprising" to be honest - and as soon as HP starting talking about the 1910, we knew about the RAM issues. I recall them as being quite up-front about it right from the start...am I missing something?

[Jonathon Watkins]

Remember that HP made the EXACT same mistake with the 1910 that Viewsonic made with the v35 and made the disclaimer you are talking about after a similar uprising.

They did? There was? 8O I don't recall any such "uprising" to be honest - and as soon as HP starting talking about the 1910, we knew about the RAM issues. I recall them as being quite up-front about it right from the start...am I missing something?

Agreed - we knew about the size of the 1910's memory right from the start. Viewsonic are on their own on this one. BUT - it's good to see that they changed their tune quickly once this issue was pointed out. However - they should have got it correct right from the start. It's not hard to list the amount of RAM free for use now, is it? :roll:

[Newsboy]

I think we need new ROM designations, such as:

AROM - Active Read-Only Memory, i.e. NOR ROM

PROM - Passive Read-Only Memory, i.e. NAND ROM



This reminds me the old days of PCMCIA cards. They use to use "volatile" memory, so if the little watch battery in your PCMCIA card ran out, you lost everything on it! Happened to me several times, in fact, I still have the card, a 2 MB card that cost about, oooh, $300 a few years ago. :D

Thank goodness for non-volatile removable storage.

[Kirkaiya]

In a way, I think that the old designations were okay, but they got sort of mixed together.

Truly, ROM is supposed to be Read Only Memory - you shouldn't be able to Execute in Place, or update it, or anything - in the "old" days, ROM was burned in at the factory.

Then, there were E-PROMS ("EPROM", "EP-ROM"), which were "Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory". These had a pretty high voltage threshold for changing them - you could buy a "blank" one, and if you also had an "EPROM Burner", which was a specialty hardware burner, you could create your own "ROM" chips (some game designers used to do limited beta runs of cartridge game systems this way, kinda like a small band using a CD-Burner to distribute their songs today).

Finally, there was RAM - which was volataile. There were different types of RAM, and technologies (remember "Bubble Memory"??). And I also had a PCMCIA card with a watch battery, but mine was on 1 MB.

The advent of "Flash" memory, which is non-volatile, changed everything. While it's got slower read/write times, you don't need a battery like Static RAM (SRAM, or SDRAM) to keep your data; finally, the "perfect" removable media :-)

The "ROM" in an iPaq, or other upgradable PocketPCs uses so-called "Flash ROM", which is a bit of a misnomer, IMHO. It's more like Flash RAM with a high write-voltage, and isn't much different from Flash RAM in the sense that it's rewritable non-volatile memory. (talking about the "NOR" ROM).

Apparently, this NAND ROM (again, I think of it as an inferior Flash RAM that doesn't support XIP) has degradation issues with multiple write-cycles...


So anyway - I agree with Newsboy that we definitely need some more acronyms, lest we all get confused once more by manufacturers.

I propose (some already used):

VRAM = Volataile RAM (either SDRAM, or DDR, or other typical memory that requires a trickle of charge to keep its contents).

HROM = Hardwired Read Only Memory (burnt at factory, "traditional" ROM chips)

XROM - eXecutable (Flash) Read-Only Memory, supports XIP, like NOR

EROM - Erasable Read-Only Memory. Similar to EPROMs of yore, this Flash ROM can be rewritten, but does not support Execute in place (a la Viewsonic and HP 1910).

So - Whos up for forming a standards body and consortium to debate these acronyms for the next year, and then publish a "white-paper" on it? :wink: