Toshiba 5 GB Bluetooth Hard Drive

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2002_10/pr0902.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/pres...2_10/pr0902.htm</a><br /><br /></div>Interesting concept - we heard about this product earlier this year, and it looks like Toshiba started shipping this device in Japan this month. It's a powerful concept, although I think it makes the most sense when paired with a Bluetooth digital camera - local storage would just be a buffer while the image is written to the hard drive. Again though, the Bluetooth bandwidth limitation comes up - 96 KB/s (768 Kbps) isn't very fast for storing 10+ MB images from a camera in RAW format. Still, it's great to see Toshiba innovating on this front.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/img0901.jpg" /> <br /><br />"Toshiba Corporation today announced the commercial release of HOPBIT, a personal mobile server that combines the wireless connectivity of BluetoothTM with the storage capabilities of a large capacity hard disk drive. Small enough to slip into a pocket and light enough to carry everywhere, HOPBIT is a powerful personal tool that can transmit, receive and store large volume data sources--including images and music--communicate with digital networks, and provide a new dimension in portable memory for personal information equipment, such as PDA and PC. <br /><br />HOPBIT is a new concept in personal data storage that integrates short-range BluetoothTM wireless technology with a 5GB, 1.8-inch HDD, giving it the ability to store some 1000 pieces of music1, almost 37 hours of moving images2, and about 3000 digital pictures3. Toshiba-developed anti-vibration and shock technology assure error-free operation, even when on the move with the HOPBIT stored in a hand-carried bag, such as an attaché case."

[torring]

Wouldn't this be a great way to stream audio to your PocketPC?

I could imagine using it in e.g. a car with the PocketPC attached to the amplifier.

A agree that the bandwidth is suboptimal for most other applications, but for this it would be more than adequate.

[Boxster S]

Why not Wi-Fi?? I mean, come on!!!!!!!!! It can't be that hard to make it Wi-Fi instead. You get faster speeds and longer range.

[EricMCarson]

Why not Wi-Fi?? I mean, come on!!!!!!!!! It can't be that hard to make it Wi-Fi instead. You get faster speeds and longer range.

Two words. Battery power. BTW, do you really want the longer range with your portable data so that someone on the subway can rip off the Word document you are working on? Toshiba went the right way on this, I believe. When will people understand that Bluetooth and WiFi are intended for TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PURPOSES?

[Shadowcat]

Wouldn't this be a great way to stream audio to your PocketPC?

I could imagine using it in e.g. a car with the PocketPC attached to the amplifier.

A agree that the bandwidth is suboptimal for most other applications, but for this it would be more than adequate.

I was wondering...is Bluetooth even fast enough for streaming mp3s and mpegs?

Thanks in advance

[Boxster S]

Why not Wi-Fi?? I mean, come on!!!!!!!!! It can't be that hard to make it Wi-Fi instead. You get faster speeds and longer range.

Two words. Battery power. BTW, do you really want the longer range with your portable data so that someone on the subway can rip off the Word document you are working on? Toshiba went the right way on this, I believe. When will people understand that Bluetooth and WiFi are intended for TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PURPOSES?

To your concerns on someone ripping you off on the subway, that's what encryption is for.

What's the point of having 5GB of portable storage if you're going to be limited by such low transfer speeds (which will be even lower in the real world than their rated speeds).

And if you need 5GB of storage for your trip on the subway, I'd say that you need to find something better to do with your time :)

If you're going to be on the subway playing audio (b/c Lord knows that Bluetooth isn't fast enough to stream movies), I don't see how a 256MB - 512MB CF/SD card wouldn't be sufficient unless you are traveling from like New York to North Carolina on Amtrak :)

If you're going to be at work/home, all you need is a Bluetooth/Wi-Fi card to access your 80+ GB hard drive on your personal computer.

If you have a CF slot, you can always slap in a Microdrive.

There are MANY other more cost-effective ways of getting more storage than this attempt at getting people to "geek up" even more by carrying around a 5GB snail.

It's be like having a Ferrari 360 Modena and being stuck in 30MPH school zone on a daily basis.

[surur]

Wouldn't this be a great way to stream audio to your PocketPC?

I could imagine using it in e.g. a car with the PocketPC attached to the amplifier.

A agree that the bandwidth is suboptimal for most other applications, but for this it would be more than adequate.

I was wondering...is Bluetooth even fast enough for streaming mp3s and mpegs?

I've been really disappointed with the speed of bluetooth on my Loox. On file-transfers maxes out to about 5-6 kb/sec (yes, about dail-up modem speeds :evil:

And its incredibly unrelaible, very fiddly, long start-up times and always dropping. Give me wifi any day.

Surur
(who would Loove to see 96 Kb/sec :( )

[Boxster S]

Wouldn't this be a great way to stream audio to your PocketPC?

I could imagine using it in e.g. a car with the PocketPC attached to the amplifier.

A agree that the bandwidth is suboptimal for most other applications, but for this it would be more than adequate.

I was wondering...is Bluetooth even fast enough for streaming mp3s and mpegs?

I've been really disappointed with the speed of bluetooth on my Loox. On file-transfers maxes out to about 5-6 kb/sec (yes, about dail-up modem speeds :evil:

And its incredibly unrelaible, very fiddly, long start-up times and always dropping. Give me wifi any day.

Surur
(who would Loove to see 96 Kb/sec :( )

EXACTLY. Bluetooth is STILL to finicky and unreliable at this point for me to even consider using. And with its low transfer speeds, 5GB is pretty wasteful.

[DaleReeck]

Another product that goes to show that just because you can make something doesn't mean you should :)

By the way, I notice it looks like Toshiba is using their "old" Bluetooth SD card. I wonder whatever happened to that new, smaller version that supposedly started mass production back in Sept. I haven't heard a thing about it...

[Jason Dunn]

Wouldn't this be a great way to stream audio to your PocketPC?

I could imagine using it in e.g. a car with the PocketPC attached to the amplifier.

A agree that the bandwidth is suboptimal for most other applications, but for this it would be more than adequate.

Hmm....I don't know. 96 KB/s is the max speed, real-world is probably less than that. 128 Kbps MP3s would need buffering before they'd start playing, although 64 Kbps WMA would be possible. It's a good idea though... :-)

[Jason Dunn]

Why not Wi-Fi?? I mean, come on!!!!!!!!! It can't be that hard to make it Wi-Fi instead. You get faster speeds and longer range.

Two words: battery life. WiFi is still very hard on the batteries, but the extra bandwidth sure would be nice, wouldn't it?

[Jason Dunn]

When will people understand that Bluetooth and WiFi are intended for TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PURPOSES?

You can't blame them Eric - especially when you have Bluetooth companies releasing wireless access points that step firmly into the WiFi arena. Bluetooth is all about the cable replacement, but only in bandwidth restricted scenarios. Wireless hard drives, if they're used for large file data transfer, need speeds in the MB/s not KB/s.

[Janak Parekh]

Well, the unit has USB to support large-scale transfers. (Why USB 1.1, and not 2.0, is beyond me :?)

As to Bluetooth, given a good Pocket PC implementation, this is a far superior solution for large-scale music playing than WiFi. The battery life of this unit could easily be shaved by 30-50% using WiFi to stream... and as we've seen, no Pocket PC with WiFi lasts more than 2-4 hours. MP3's at 128kBps should be doable even with the broken 3870 implementation (sorry to hear your Loox is worse than that), and the 3970's and future units do transfer files much faster (~ 720kbps, IIRC, enough for streaming 320x240 video). Bluetooth's "connected" vs "disconnected" modes of operation are great (note that Toshiba says ~ 200 hours of battery life with the hard drive off!)

And yes, I would buy this for long-hauls. I do consulting on weekends and would love to have a 5GB hard drive for my Pocket PC for various applications, especially MP3/Ogg, when I'm away from my desk.

--bdj

[bitbank]

This product looks like it arrived a bit to early. The BT 2.0 spec might make sense, but real-world numbers for Pocket PC bluetooth adapters is more like 230K bits per second. This translates into 23-28K bytes per second. To transmit your typical 450K 2 megapixel image will take nearly 20 seconds!

Imagine waiting 20 seconds per picture. Or even worse...on my new Canon S40; I use the high quality setting and pictures take an average of 1.8MB each. That would take over a minute per image!

No thanks

[gpspassion]

problem is that most BT implementations are Serial enulations right now, so it means the speed pretty much maxes out around 115kbps.
Recently a new release of the Widcom drivers (USB dongles) bumped up the speed to 160kbps with a 3975 by some miracle...

Anyway, the max theoretical speed for BT 1.1 is somewhere around 723/2 (remember two-way traffic)*0.8 (overhead)=290kbps MAX!
Having a 5gb HD is therefore pretty useless!

[acronym]

it isn't a bad idea, actually - albeit a bit LATE
considering that theres only 1 pocket pc device I know of that can handle a direct usb connection, how else are you going to shuffle images/music/data around without your laptop? the usb 1.1 configuration is a bit odd, tho'

[Janak Parekh]

Anyway, the max theoretical speed for BT 1.1 is somewhere around 723/2 (remember two-way traffic)*0.8 (overhead)=290kbps MAX! Having a 5gb HD is therefore pretty useless!
Well, dividing by 2 is not useful here; you don't do both directions at the same time. Especially if you're streaming MP3's or video down from the hard drive.

I do agree we'll have to wait and see if the implementation is worth it.

--bdj

[Janak Parekh]

it isn't a bad idea, actually - albeit a bit LATE
considering that theres only 1 pocket pc device I know of that can handle a direct usb connection, how else are you going to shuffle images/music/data around without your laptop? the usb 1.1 configuration is a bit odd, tho'
I think the idea here is you load content up using your desktop, which has USB, and then use it wirelessly with your laptop or PPC.

--bdj

[Duncan]

problem is that most BT implementations are Serial enulations right now, so it means the speed pretty much maxes out around 115kbps

I know we've had this discussion elsewhere but you are mixing two issues. 1) Some early BT devices (e.g. the iPAQ 3870) went through the Serial UART - artificially restricting speed. Most devices do not do this anymore. 2) BT implementation is usually asymmetric - so upload speeds can be very slow (requests for info etc.) while download speeds are much faster - more than capable of streaming MP3/WMA audio at 128 - 196k. I've tested downloads (not uploads) on the Loox and iPAQ and found very respectable speeds. There are now three stereo BT headsets in development/due for release!

What would have been sensible from Toshiba would have been BT AND WiFi implemented - giving a choice of high speed or low power solution!

[Bob Anderson]

I think this is one of those innovations, that if priced right, is a great idea...

I wouldn't use it for "real-time" storage (i.e., stream audio to my pocket pc, or save images from my camera to the hard drive as they are being taken) but for a storage repository it makes a lot of sense.

For example.. I'm going on vacation for a week.. I take my camera and my pocket pc and my Toshiba bluetooth hard drive. I listen to 5 hours of audio on my flight out... so, when I get to my destination I replace some of the songs so I have variety... Then the next day... I go out and take a bunch of pictures... instead of having to manage multiple memory cards, I simply bring the camera back to the hotel... and transfer images to the bluetooth hard drive. (Using the pocket pc to edit and view the photos, of course :) )

I think it works nicely as aome type of "adjunct" device... right now, when I go on vacation, I have to bring my laptop so that I can manage my picture taking, media hogging, lifestyle. This bluetooth drive could help me leave the laptop at home... at least I think it could!

[Gen-M]

My only comment is that 5GB is too small. :cry: Toshiba should use their 10 or 20GB ATA drives in this. You never have enough Storage - especially if it does not take up a slot! :)

[sponge]

Wait.. theoretically you can get 768kbps, but in real world, you get less than 128kbit? Always? Wow, I knew BT wasn't great, but that's just AWFUL!

[st63z]

And again why not just integrate that 1.8" 20GB drive INTO a Pocket PC to begin with? :) ;)

This standalone unit's about the WxH of the iPAQ 1910 but weighs as much as the 5450 and is .87" thick. Too much extra real estate (we should be thinking PC Card Type II size)...

Imagine a 5450 w/ 20GB HDD (same form factor). You got the WiFi, BT, USB (via sync), and flash card transfers from digicam... Who needs that Archos Jukebox Multimedia if you have this...

[Sheynk]

And again why not just integrate that 1.8" 20GB drive INTO a Pocket PC to begin with? :) ;)

This standalone unit's about the WxH of the iPAQ 1910 but weighs as much as the 5450 and is .87" thick. Too much extra real estate (we should be thinking PC Card Type II size)...

Imagine a 5450 w/ 20GB HDD (same form factor). You got the WiFi, BT, USB (via sync), and flash card transfers from digicam... Who needs that Archos Jukebox Multimedia if you have this...

STOP IT! IT SOUNDS TOO GOOD!......DROOL.......

[st63z]

^ Needless to say price would shoot through the roof, and you gotta balance that battery life...

I wonder though, how would a 5450 with the PCMCIA Plus pack and a Toshiba 5-20GB PC Card drive compare to using a 5450 with this Toshiba stand-alone unit? What's the estimated price anyways?

Or as has been mentioned, wait for that 6GB Microdrive to use with the CF Plus pack...

[Janak Parekh]

Or as has been mentioned, wait for that 6GB Microdrive to use with the CF Plus pack...
..which is my current plan, seeing as how the plus pack deals with the 1GB so nicely.

However, they haven't said anything about release dates on the 6GB. :( If anyone has, please share!

--bdj

[jgrnt1]

I use a 20GB Archos MiniHD with my Toshiba Genio e550g. I travel a lot and use it for music in my car. Unfortunately, I need the HD's PC Card adapter, a CF to PC Card adapter and two power supplies. Bluetooth would eliminate a lot of clutter, but 5GB is way too small.

[Will T Smith]

Wouldn't this be a great way to stream audio to your PocketPC?

I could imagine using it in e.g. a car with the PocketPC attached to the amplifier.

A agree that the bandwidth is suboptimal for most other applications, but for this it would be more than adequate.

I was wondering...is Bluetooth even fast enough for streaming mp3s and mpegs?

Thanks in advance

I will answer your question with a question.

Is your broadband internet connection fast enough to stream mp3s and MPEGs???

If so, then bluetooth is about 4-5 times more capable than that "fast" pipe on your desktop. :-) Of course, your mileage may vary.


If so then Bluetooth

[bitbank]

Will T Smith,
I think you got your numbers mixed up...

My broadband connection on my desktop (cable) averages 2-3 megabits per second; sometimes it goes as high as 4. The real-world bluetooth speeds today are around 200 kilobits per second. That is 10-20 times SLOWER than a broadband connection.

L.B.

[Will T Smith]

Why not Wi-Fi?? I mean, come on!!!!!!!!! It can't be that hard to make it Wi-Fi instead. You get faster speeds and longer range.

Two words. Battery power. BTW, do you really want the longer range with your portable data so that someone on the subway can rip off the Word document you are working on? Toshiba went the right way on this, I believe. When will people understand that Bluetooth and WiFi are intended for TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PURPOSES?

To your concerns on someone ripping you off on the subway, that's what encryption is for.

What's the point of having 5GB of portable storage if you're going to be limited by such low transfer speeds (which will be even lower in the real world than their rated speeds).

And if you need 5GB of storage for your trip on the subway, I'd say that you need to find something better to do with your time :)

If you're going to be on the subway playing audio (b/c Lord knows that Bluetooth isn't fast enough to stream movies), I don't see how a 256MB - 512MB CF/SD card wouldn't be sufficient unless you are traveling from like New York to North Carolina on Amtrak :)

If you're going to be at work/home, all you need is a Bluetooth/Wi-Fi card to access your 80+ GB hard drive on your personal computer.

If you have a CF slot, you can always slap in a Microdrive.

There are MANY other more cost-effective ways of getting more storage than this attempt at getting people to "geek up" even more by carrying around a 5GB snail.

It's be like having a Ferrari 360 Modena and being stuck in 30MPH school zone on a daily basis.

Good luck on that whole "encrypting a volume over a wireless connection and making it work with multiple devices" thing. Beyond that, one need not read your data to cause problems. If they mount your drive, then they can likely delete it. Remember this isn't a file server it's a DRIVE. Wi-Fi is currently VERY insecure.

Granted, bluetooth is a much slower connection. However, you have to remember that your dealing with small portable devices. This device will likely serve as a NAS device for your PAN. Cameras, PDAs, cellphones, laptops, MP3 players, etc...

I'm sure that it has a USB2 or Firewire(preferred) plug for when you get home.

It certainly MAY be overkill for MP3. However, as a data briefcase to serve up files for MANY different application AND serve as a data briefcase for office&lt;->home it really kicks as. No compromises. You can store your data, AND have access to it between locations without a laptop.

When Bluetooth 2 comes out, this is one device that will CERTAINLY benefit from it.

The device could benefit from a multi-flash reader so that one could dump the contents from legacy digital cameras onto the device.

I'm curious if Terrapin will augment some of their stuff to be network aware. This looks to be a direct competitor to the "Terrapin Mine".

Another Suggestion: enable a firewire webcam to dump directly to the device :-)

[Will T Smith]

And again why not just integrate that 1.8" 20GB drive INTO a Pocket PC to begin with? :) ;)

This standalone unit's about the WxH of the iPAQ 1910 but weighs as much as the 5450 and is .87" thick. Too much extra real estate (we should be thinking PC Card Type II size)...

Imagine a 5450 w/ 20GB HDD (same form factor). You got the WiFi, BT, USB (via sync), and flash card transfers from digicam... Who needs that Archos Jukebox Multimedia if you have this...

STOP IT! IT SOUNDS TOO GOOD!......DROOL.......

You have to remember that you have market segments that you shoot for when developing a device. You won't see 20gigs of integrated storage in a PocketPC anytime soon regardless of how cool it MIGHT be.

Why, because this capacity rivals many notebook computers. If you need so much power AND storage. Your needs are really better served by a sub-notebook anyway.

The idea behind the 1910 was to make a slim/cheap device that could compete with Palm on those basis. Adding such a device would obviously break the bank. Regarding HD's in general, you'll never see them INTEGRATED into PocketPC because they suck up WAY too much juice relative to flash memory. Flash is what 99% of the users need and USE anyway.

Comments regarding the brick like nature of the Compaq 36/38/39/54 with sleeve are still very relevant. It's an excellent lesson about binding the thickness of your device to expansion capabilities. I expect that if Compaq eventually creates expansion in 1910 series it will be based on "Backpacks" or "sleds" like those that were frequently implemented for Palm and Jornada*.

* I thought the CF 1e concept was VERY cool (save I still would have liked to see 2e instead of 1e). It allowed expansion to be slung off the back in a very svelt connector while not taking up any additional space. It's unfortunate that HP bought Compaq while there was only 2 devices using 1e, the PC-Card sled and the CF2 adapter (which dwarfed ALL the silver sliders).

[Will T Smith]

Will T Smith,
I think you got your numbers mixed up...

My broadband connection on my desktop (cable) averages 2-3 megabits per second; sometimes it goes as high as 4. The real-world bluetooth speeds today are around 200 kilobits per second. That is 10-20 times SLOWER than a broadband connection.

L.B.

Damn, who's your cable provider?????? Most people get significantly less then that. With my first provider, I averaged about 775kbps. In any case, remember that that's speed of your PARTICULAR pipe not all the pipes (your portions that is) between most servers and you. Numbers I typically read are around 512kps, and of course, there are many providers that throttle their customers to 256kbps and even worse 128kbps.

Of course your average home user still gets only 54kbps over their modem.

The numbers I frequently read for MAX throughput is 1Mbps. As others have said, Bluetooth gets a bum rap because serial profile applications are often throttled down to 115kbs.

You can talk theoretical vs nominal all day. I use the theoretical numbers because those are the ONLY ones that are typically published. I simply assume that all connection speeds will vary.


Sources having been stated, the whole point was to compare Bluetooth speed vs the speed of a streaming internet connection. Now, for instance, an extremely fortunate broadband user may get 2000kbps from his location to his ISP. However, when you connect to xxx server, I doubt you'll get it. You'll get a throttled amount doaled out by the server so it can handle MORE THAN JUST you. If you clock that number, I doubt you'll ever get CLOSE to your maximum bandwidth.

The point is that Bluetooth exceeds MOST internet connections intended to stream both audio and low resolution video (PocketPC sized). From that perspective, Bluetooth access to this 5GB hard drive should be sufficient for PocketPC, Palm, and Cell-phone users.

[Janak Parekh]

Damn, who's your cable provider?????? Most people get significantly less then that.
You'd be surprised. On Long Island, with Cablevision/Optimum Online, it's not unusual to see 1-2Mbps, and I can get higher to certain nearby hosts.

DSL, on the other hand, rarely reaches or exceeds cable speeds here.

--bdj