Brighthand Debate [Archive] - Thoughts Media Forums

Duncan

11-27-2002, 02:55 PM

Foo Fighter

11-27-2002, 03:10 PM

If you have evidence (not supposition or innuendo) then state it.

Brighthand receives money from Palm for its use of the message boards as the "official" community for Palm, plus ads. Since this deal was incepted, Steve Bush became unusually pro-Palm. Look at the recent Tungsten review. I don't believe that Palm "buys positive reviews", but it is clearly obvious that Brighthand is protecting its revenue streams.

Duncan

11-27-2002, 04:01 PM

Steve became pro-Palm before Palm sponsored the Palm boards. The worst he can be accused of is being biased due to his belief that Palm is the better platform. Since he publicly declared both his 'conversion' to Palm and the later sponsorship of the Palm boards I see no problem. I read his Palm reviews and, while strongly disagreeing with them, see no evidence at all that he is shaping his reviews to keep Palm happy.

Sorry guys - I've seen Steve Bush accused of many things (some entirely contradictary) but, aside from the odd misjudgement, I have never seen anything (other than innuendo) to indicate dishonesty on his part - in fact I continue to hold him in the highest respect as I always have done. I won't see him accused without proof or being here to defend himself against what amount to smears.

Rirath

11-27-2002, 05:51 PM

I won't see him accused without proof or being here to defend himself against what amount to smears.

:roll:

ThomasC22

11-27-2002, 06:47 PM

The suggestion, made by 'some' in this thread, that Palm 'own' Brighthand and 'buy' positive reviews - is... distasteful at best. If you have evidence (not supposition or innuendo) then state it. Otherwise such statements have no more basis in truth than to suggest that Microsoft 'own', or 'buy' reviews on, Pocket PC Thoughts - and they reflect badly on those who make them.

Well, ok. First, I will apologize for the this...there are times when some of us, having banged around the PDA community for a couple years or more, forget that not everyone is "in the know" about other members of said community. So, for anything I said that might have indicated that it is a 100% proven fact that Brighthand takes money for good reviews, I apologize (although I thought the :wink: went a long way to saying "this is half joking, but thats besides the point).

That said, I have to agree with Foo Fighter on "lets be realistic" point. Although all evidence is circumstantial, there is a lot of evidence that Steve is leaning heavily towards Palm. I mean, do you really think that Palm would refer people from their site if there wasn't some kind of guarantee that the site would be favorable to Palm? Further, the fact that Brighthand has to the best of my knowledge "really liked" every Palm it has reviewed since this deal was put in place is telling.

But more than that, and what really turned me on Steve Bush (who I think is a good guy who is just desperately trying to hold on to his dream job) was hiring Ed. I'm sorry but if your site is "unbiased" then don't put it in the hands of a guy who has spent the last several years of his life saying the one platform is the holy grail and that the other is dirt.

But again, no proven facts here...

Kati Compton

11-27-2002, 07:06 PM

That said, I have to agree with Foo Fighter on "lets be realistic" point. Although all evidence is circumstantial, there is a lot of evidence that Steve is leaning heavily towards Palm. I mean, do you really think that Palm would refer people from their site if there wasn't some kind of guarantee that the site would be favorable to Palm? Further, the fact that Brighthand has to the best of my knowledge "really liked" every Palm it has reviewed since this deal was put in place is telling.

It could just be that he prefers Palm heavily without needing Palm to provide $$. And Palm could recognize this and send people his way. I really like Palms for what they do (PIM, small games, etc). To be honest, if it weren't for the fact that I wanted to use my PDA to also listen to MP3s, I might have bought a Palm last week (and then I wouldn't have this WAIT.... argh. Such sweet pain waiting for a coveted new gadget).

So if he's leaning heavily towards Palm - he likes Palm. People here lean heavily towards Pocket PC and they're not being paid by Microsoft. That isn't enough reason to look askance at his reviews.

The other reason Palm could be referring people there, apart from it just generally being a good place to go for Palm users, is that by sending people there, there's less customer support and such that they themselves have to do (which saves them $).

And there are a lot of sites that have sponsors, and no one is accusing them of being biased. Nothing wrong with having sponsors. I see ads on this board too. I'm not complaining that Jason is unduly pro the Whitney CF sleeve that has the special Pocket PC Thoughts special offer - nor should I.

Foo Fighter

11-27-2002, 07:22 PM

Duncan

11-27-2002, 07:49 PM

ThomasC22,

That's fine... I think in fairness Steve make little pretence at being unbiased - he leans towards Palm - that much is clear - but that he has really liked every Palm is no more remarkable than the enthusiasm shown for pretty much every Pocket PC on this site! Plus - I would argue that Steve has enthused about new iPAQs as they've come along!

As for Ed the new BH editor - I've been pleasantly surprised by how much he has tried to be fair and even-handed. He hasn't always been successful - but contrast to the pathetic performance of the current PDABuzz editors...!

I reckon that having banged around the PDA community for over three years myself now I'd be pretty wise to a site letting advertising rule its editorial policy - and I don't see it with B'hand! :)

BTW - Rirath - stunning post mate - quite put me in my place! :roll:

Kati Compton

11-27-2002, 08:04 PM

People here lean heavily towards Pocket PC and they're not being paid by Microsoft.

The difference is...this web site isn't receiving money from Microsoft. Brighthand does receive money from Palm. And that, IMO, poses a conflict of interests. At the very least Steve should post a disclaimer stating his agreement with Palm.

And PPCthoughts is strictly a PPC site, whereas BH is a multi-platform community.

But this site has software and hardware ads, and by your arguments shouldn't there also be complaints that those particular programs and devices/add-ons are getting unfair treatment because they paid?

The Palm support at Brighthand is reflected in the ads, which to me *is* a disclaimer that they're getting support from Palm. I would be more concerned if he was getting money from Palm and *wasn't* posting the ads. The ads are what Palm is getting in return for their $.

I don't think it's fair to assume that support MUST equal bias. I'm not an idiot - I know it happens. But attacking an individual's character over it seems a bit much.

jpf

11-27-2002, 08:25 PM

Is this a forum for debate or for what is incontrovertible??

Bitching about what people post here is a waste of time (even if you have been here x years and posted x posts).

On with the debate and let 'me' decide what's rubbish.

Jason Dunn

11-27-2002, 08:39 PM

I'm glad to see this got split off from the main discussion. :? Steve was quite pro Palm before they ever started to sponsor his site - his "conversion" was quite public. If likes Palm over Pocket PCs, that's cool. Even the people who ran "generic PDA sites" all have their own personal favourite devices - complete non-bias simply isn't possible.

Does Brighthand have a pro-Palm slant? Yes, I think it does. But so what? We're ALL biased to one degree or another, so I don't know if this is truly a big deal. Yeah, I did think his Tungsten review was "soft", but ultimately there are far more serious things in the world to worry abotu than a Tungsten review. :wink:

Now as far as money is concerned, I should state this now because someone made an incorrect statement earlier in this thread: Pocket PC Thoughts has received money from Microsoft in the past.

Earlier this year Microsoft gave Pocket PC Thoughts some money as part of their community grant program. The idea behind the community grant program is to help support Pocket PC Web sites. The ad market is largely in the toilet still, and it's hard to cover costs + time when you run a site. Other sites in the Pocket PC community have received funding from this grant program, and I think it's a GREAT thing that Microsoft is supporting their community in this manner.

It was originally going to cover our server hosting costs and move us to a Windows server, but having me switch over to Windows just didn't work out. They ended up giving Thoughts a one-time donation to support the work we do. If Microsoft hadn't given us this infusion, I'm not sure the site would be here (or, rather, the site might but I'd asking "Do you want fries with that?" while at work). :lol:

I keep meaning to write up some "About the site" information and add this, but it just hasn't happened yet.

So...there ya go. :D

Kati Compton

11-27-2002, 09:24 PM

Now as far as money is concerned, I should state this now because someone made an incorrect statement earlier in this thread: Pocket PC Thoughts has received money from Microsoft in the past.

Earlier this year Microsoft gave Pocket PC Thoughts some money as part of their community grant program. The idea behind the community grant program is to help support Pocket PC Web sites. The ad market is largely in the toilet still, and it's hard to cover costs + time when you run a site. Other sites in the Pocket PC community have received funding from this grant program, and I think it's a GREAT thing that Microsoft is supporting their community in this manner.

It was originally going to cover our server hosting costs and move us to a Windows server, but having me switch over to Windows just didn't work out. They ended up giving Thoughts a one-time donation to support the work we do. If Microsoft hadn't given us this infusion, I'm not sure the site would be here (or, rather, the site might but I'd asking "Do you want fries with that?" while at work). :lol:

Great - glad you're getting support from a company with $$. :)

Jason Dunn

11-27-2002, 09:29 PM

Brighthand does receive money from Palm. And that, IMO, poses a conflict of interests. At the very least Steve should post a disclaimer stating his agreement with Palm.

There might be something to that - I know that I've been called out several times for "full disclosure" (or lack thereof), and the sword cuts both ways - when people read this site, I assume they KNOW we're Pocket PC biased...hence the name. In the same way that when MSNBC posts a news story involving Microsoft they point out that they're partially owned by Microsoft, should Brighthand point out that they receive money from Palm when they review a Palm product? I don't know.

Ultimately situations like this are tricky, and sometimes I'm amazed at the way some people "police" others. I've been personally flamed and attacked by a certain Blogger because I didn't point out the fact that Microsoft paid for the Mobius flights and hotel rooms within 48 hours of returning home. It made me feel like a "bad person" because I didn't rush to my computer post a disclaimer about it.

And where does it end? Do I have to post a disclaimer stating that I had a great dinner and thus when I reviewed a product I was in a happy mood, which might have influenced my review? Should I change our tag-line to read "Pocket PC Thoughts - Microsoft gave us some money once". :lol:

People can't live up to the impossible expectations others have of them, and this issue is a prime example of that.

Everything that involves opinion involves bias to some degree, and no person should ever make a decision based soley on what they read on a Web site. I think it's possible, over time, to grow to know reviewers and learn to know what to trust and not trust.

This is making my head hurt. :roll: BTW, none of this is "aimed" at you Foo, it's just some general thoughts I have on the subject. :D

ThomasC22

11-27-2002, 10:36 PM

On with the debate and let 'me' decide what's rubbish.

Well, though I really hate to agree with you...I think you sort of have a point.

The thing is, if you're asking questions about someone's credibility based on who advertises on their site, then you probably don't trust that person to begin with. Did anyone really see that Palm had a forum on Brighthand and say "Hey, NOW I think his reviews are bunk!"? I doubt it. The truth is, if you trusted Steve Bush before he was sponsored by Palm you probably still do and if you didn't before, the Palm thing just made it worse. But I doubt anyone's opinion changed.

As for "full disclosure", I don't have a problem with any site not disclosing their exact agreement with a company as long as there is some representation of the exchange on the site. In other words, I don't have a problem with Steve Bush taking money from Palm because he makes it public that they sponsor his forums so I can then make my own judgements regarding his credibility. Now, if he were getting money from Palm through the back door for nothing in return that would make me a little uncomfortable.

BUT...and this is a little on topic/a little off topic so I appologize for the little off...Steve has to realize that he runs a public site and he puts himself out there publicly. He is a mini-celebrity of sorts and so his business dealings are up for discussion. Sorry, in a perfect world that wouldn't be the case, but the world isn't perfect so...

Now, should he change what he's doing or bend to the collective opinion, no, not necessarily. In my opinion, he should just accept that occasionally someone will make a Brighthand joke and get over it (and this might be the attitude he takes btw, I don't know)

ThomasC22

11-27-2002, 10:40 PM

As for Ed the new BH editor - I've been pleasantly surprised by how much he has tried to be fair and even-handed. He hasn't always been successful - but contrast to the pathetic performance of the current PDABuzz editors...!

I don't know...I'm not saying Ed is doing anything wrong...I'm just saying from my perspective...he's just trying a little too hard.

It was a bad position for him to be put in I think, everyone knows his feelings about PocketPCs and so to have Steve say stuff like "they can't pry the e740 out of his hand" it just...

I don't know, for me it adds to a general dishonest feeling to the place. I mean Jason, Wes Salmon (when he ran PDABuzz), and countless others have admitted to receiving money from companies at one time or another for various services, so why is Brighthand always the one brought up in these debates?

For me it's because something just feels shady over there, but then again, thats just me....

Janak Parekh

11-27-2002, 11:04 PM

Can I ask a stupid question? :)

What's new about this discussion that's not been echoed here, on PDABuzz, etc. many times before?

Unless there is more "evidence" one way or another, we should probably stop ragging on Steve again...

I remember the "explicit Palm conversion", and a lot of PocketPC users felt "left out" at the time, and for me that was the time I started moving over to PDABuzz. But it's his site, he can do anything he wants, and while we also have the freedom to complain about it, most of these discussions have often turned nasty and unproductive.

About the Tungsten T review: it's very brief anyway. If I were an interested shopper, I'd be complaining more about the lack of detail in the review than the perceived bias. When I go shopping, I look at 3-4 sites and try to get as much information as possible. I applaud Dale's reviews of the 5450: very in-depth, lots of screenshots and tech detail -- makes it easy for me to see exactly what the 5450 is made up of.

--bdj

Ed Hansberry

11-28-2002, 12:55 AM

Unless there is more "evidence" one way or another, we should probably stop ragging on Steve again...
Why should we rag on him even if there is evidence? It is his site. Let him run it the way he wants to. Jason sure as heck runs this one the way he wants to. If you don't like Steve's site, don't go. If you do, visit daily. I used to frequent a site daily this past summer until a certain site admin was terminated and I might check back once a month to see what may have hit the front page I may have missed, but between what I get from here in emails, what I see at BH a few times a week and what Google shows me in PPC news, that is enough for me.

Life is too short to rag. (well, unless you are ragging on Palm :wink: :lol: )

ThomasC22

11-28-2002, 01:01 AM

Can I ask a stupid question? :)
What's new about this discussion that's not been echoed here, on PDABuzz, etc. many times before?

One word...Tranflective

We discuss the same thing all the time...I mean, how many times have we discussed thickness :) Heck, I think I'm discussing the inch by inch movements of a Dell Axim package in like 8 different places right now!

Seriously though, I suppose we shouldn't pick on Steve but the truth is that it's going to keep coming up if for no other reason than, in general, this bunch is much too sarcastic for it's own good (me probably more than most).

Janak Parekh

11-28-2002, 05:03 AM

Life is too short to rag. (well, unless you are ragging on Palm :wink: :lol: )
Seriously though, I suppose we shouldn't pick on Steve but the truth is that it's going to keep coming up if for no other reason than, in general, this bunch is much too sarcastic for it's own good (me probably more than most).
I think this just about explains most blogs on the Internet. :lol:

But seriously - unless there something "new and juicy", it really does start to sound tired... Ed, I do largely agree with you - I've tried to stay out of the debate for the most part.

--bdj

mookie123

11-28-2002, 05:50 AM

...Hey.......wait a minute, what's this about PocketPCthought about to serve fries with their news?

can I have ketchup with it too? :oops:

ThomasC22

11-28-2002, 06:08 AM

But seriously - unless there something "new and juicy", it really does start to sound tired... Ed, I do largely agree with you - I've tried to stay out of the debate for the most part.

Well, on the topic of "new and juicy" and since this is an off topic thread, I found this little tid bit (http://forums.pdabuzz.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43818) over and wassalmon.com (www.wessalmon.com).

I'm sure they won't pay whoever as much and it is part time, nonetheless it is kind of a slap in the face.

Rirath

11-28-2002, 06:48 AM

:roll:

BTW - Rirath - stunning post mate - quite put me in my place!

I let em off easy and they ASK for it... :lol:
None the less I believe my post summed my feelings up quite nicely. I stand by it.

enemy2k2

11-28-2002, 12:14 PM

Can I ask a stupid question? :)
What's new about this discussion that's not been echoed here, on PDABuzz, etc. many times before?

One word...Tranflective

:lol:

Seriously though guys, I like Brighthand. I go there a couple of times a week just to hear news. I don't go on any Palm sites, though he does have mostly Palm news he also has a great deal on PPC to boot. I think it's a great site and like the way it balances both popular PDA platforms. Heck, I didn't even know the owner was a Palm fanatic! Just thought he liked all things PDA?

ThomasC22

12-01-2002, 09:14 PM

As one last note on the Brighthand topic, it should be mentioned that he has one heck of an iPaq snitch at HP.

He's gotten both specs and pics before anyone else on almost every iPaq since the original.

Equilibrium

12-05-2002, 04:42 AM

It's nice to see some familiar faces. I have been away from Brighthand for 2 months now, and it is nice to see some faces I remember from over there.

I don't personally like Steve Bush, but I agree he does seem a bit Palm-biased. In hiring Ed Hardy as Editor-in-Chief, it almost seemed as if he was keeping up his ways of leaniancy toward Palm OS. He even has his own Palm sponsored boards. Oh well, none of the boards over at Brighthand are run very well IMO.

I don't mean for any of this to sound like an attack of any kind against Steve Bush, it's just one guys opinion. Once again, it's nice seeing some familiar "faces" (IDs) again.