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Jason Dunn
11-19-2002, 04:00 PM
Since starting to use an XDA on the trusty <a href="http://www.fido.ca">Fido network</a>, I'm doing a lot more text entry on my Pocket PC. I wish it had an integrated keyboard a la Treo - I agreed with that part of Walt Mossbergs assessment at least. The add on ones look ok, but I've always found the "bottom loader" keyboards a bit clunky (the "snap over" Jornada keyboard was a thing of beauty). But back to the subject at hand - I'm looking for a new method of text entry because the hunt and peck keyboard is starting to drive me insane. I've looked at <a href="http://www.fitaly.com/wince/pspcfitaly.htm">Fitaly</a> in the past, and found it too confusing, but I didn't give it a fair chance. I'm also looking at <a href="http://www.wordlogic.net/">WordLogic</a>. I'm willing to put in the training time needed to get up to speed with a solid interface. Any suggestions?

szamot
11-19-2002, 04:20 PM
While pecking is a very user friendly menthod of doing text, it is not a very efficient one if you are on the go - like driving for example. It is very accurate but slow. I persnally have been more than happy with SPB Full Screen Keyboard. It works great for me and for doing a lot of text it is quite efficient. You can also do it with one hand and if you have to keep your eyes on the road the letters are big enough to find them easily. SPB does it for me - until I find something better like a decent speech to text software.

Ed Hansberry
11-19-2002, 04:22 PM
FITALY! :lol:

I was like you. I tried FITALY in the fall of 1999 with my Nino and gave up on it. Gave me headaches trying to find letters. When I got my iPAQ I found myself using it more and more and Character Recognizer wasn't (and still isn't) as good as JOT was. So I tried FITALY again and stuck with it. Now, I am in the 40wpm range and the benefit of having shortcuts, macros and so many symbols one click away are enormous.

Andy Whiteford
11-19-2002, 04:23 PM
Still never given Fitaly a run after reading about the learning curve required. I have been using Wordlogic for months now and it really does take the standard soft keyboard forward a few steps. If you don't want to spend the time getting to grips with a complex entry method, Wordlogic seems like the best of the soft keyboards in my eyes.

timothyt
11-19-2002, 04:50 PM
The real power is in the shortcuts. You may be familiar with the idea of dragging up from a key on the soft keyboard to capitalize the letter. Imagine that on steroids and you'll start to get the idea.

Personally, I have drag macros defined for my email (drag right from the "e"), my company name (drag right from the "v"), my full name (drag right from the "t"), my short name (drag left from the "t"), the phrase "Pocket PC" (drag right from "p") you get the idea...

Using the macros, FITALY is undeniably the fastest input method I've used, and I highly recommend it. The learning curve was MUCH less than I expected once I relaxed and just went with it. I type at around 95wpm so typing on a QWERTY keyboard with one finger is mind numbing anyway.

The BEST solution would be something like the Zaurus, but they probably have that patented and have some religiously fanatic view against Pocket PC so we'll probably never see the slide-n-hide style keyboard until Sharp comes to their senses.

Adam
11-19-2002, 04:56 PM
I tried (and quite liked) Scott Seligman's KeyStrokeCE (the main reason for stopping using it was I use my iPaq on the train and the ride isn't smooth enough for any soft entry system I've found to be particularly usable :? ).

However, you *must* have a screen protector if you use it a lot. I have a nice little mark now where the central point was because I didn't. I do now though...

fyiguy
11-19-2002, 05:03 PM
Besides using an snap-on keyboard, which most of the time I don't carry or forget to carry :oops: , I end up using SPB Full Screen Keyboard. I wrote a review of it here (http://www.bostonpocketpc.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=40) if it helps. It like any input method takes some getting used to and has a slight learning curve.

Another great way is the pocketop keyboard I got a review of that too here (http://www.bostonpocketpc.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=32) it is cool in that it is wireless (IR) and can be used with just about any pda out there. Their new drivers are big improvement over the ones that shipped with it, in that it allows for on the fly screen rotation, but requires a soft reset like NYDITOT when switching to landscape,sound feedback, macros,and brightness control in a cool toolbar that wasn't available before. They also a COMDEX promotion Until November 24, the keyboard will be only $79. If you got a spare pocket this device is great!

That's my 2cents with 3 cents change...

Hope it helps!! :D

blade_of_narsil
11-19-2002, 05:13 PM
I am not sure how many people have heard of this one, but its pretty nifty. http://mrl.nyu.edu/projects/quikwriting/ The drawback its is great for short stuff and you can do it fast, but for a whole page, nothing beats a keyboard. Its pretty different than anything I have seen, but that's why it works IMO.

buffasnow
11-19-2002, 05:14 PM
I find using Access Panel Platinum enhances whatever data entry method I choose. The program is particularly useful when I have to document time, respond to e-mail, or enter large amounts of repetitive data. The pre-pocket pc version had a phone dialer, too, but they were not able to include it in the latest version due to programming difficulties.

When I know I have to enter a ton of data, I also carry my Zaurus for good measure. The word processor is of better quality than Pocket Word and the keyboard comes in handy. When the meeting gets boring, I play Asteroids on the Zaurus.

Eciton
11-19-2002, 05:15 PM
I personally use fitaly. It's worth the effort. On the topic of the Pocketop - it doesn't work with the XDA. I have one, and I'm waiting for the drivers. I hope they're making them!

Adam
11-19-2002, 05:15 PM
I am not sure how many people have heard of this one, but its pretty nifty. http://mrl.nyu.edu/projects/quikwriting/ The drawback its is great for short stuff and you can do it fast, but for a whole page, nothing beats a keyboard. Its pretty different than anything I have seen, but that's why it works IMO.

It's a different version of the one I suggested. They must come from the same root - a project for easy writing for computer entry for people with disabilities.

Eciton
11-19-2002, 05:19 PM
The good thing about quikwriting is that you don't have to lift the stylus, which makes it easier to use while moving than a peck keyboard. that said, i didn't find it very practical for my personal style.

RickK
11-19-2002, 05:27 PM
The lack of integrated keyboards on PDAs is a major gripe of mine. I have some databases and lists that require quite a lot of data entry, and where I want my PDA to be the primary point of entry. This worked fine when I had an HP200LX - I got quite fast at thumb typing, and it didn't conflict with my touch typing.

When I moved to a PPC to conform to my company's applications, I lost the keyboard. I just don't understand why the industry has moved so completely away from a keyboard interface when it is so efficient. I would LOVE a version of the PPC OS that you can navigate from the keyboard, and a corresponding series of small clamshell PDAs with built-in keyboards.

And the beauty of a clamshell design is that it is self-protecting - no flip covers or cases required.

HP100/200LX palmtops still sell on ebay for a healthy percentage of their original value, 8 years after they were discontinued. They're not flashy, but they're very productive and useful, and a big part of that utility is the combination of keyboard and keyboard-navigable OS.

RickK

Eciton
11-19-2002, 05:29 PM
Same with Psions, actually... and that also explains the continuing high price of the clamshell Jornadas.

RickK
11-19-2002, 05:42 PM
The Blackberry is another form factor that works nicely for corporate users who (1) have no time/desire to learn something new and (2) need something very productive. I've seen more corporate users carrying Treos as well, but I've heard complaints about the need to reach for the stylus for basic navigation.

Someone else said it in this thread - nothing beats a keyboard for data entry.

Kati Compton
11-19-2002, 05:57 PM
Same with Psions, actually... and that also explains the continuing high price of the clamshell Jornadas.

My husband still uses his Psion V. After my Psion3 I got a PalmIII for the size and the fact that the Psion3 was really no longer being supported... (and I wanted a new toy). The Psion was really cool at the time, though.

jamesbe2759
11-19-2002, 06:11 PM
:lol:

Try the Sony Clie NR-70.

:oops:

Doug Raeburn
11-19-2002, 06:30 PM
I've been a fan of WordLogic since I got it bundled with my iPAQ 3800 series. However, I'm a bit disappointed that it hasn't really evolved much since then. I'd like to see things like dragging for caps, which it doesn't currently do.

As for Fitaly, if you've been put off by the perceived learning curve (and it is a real concern for many people), they now have a version of FitalyLetris for the Pocket PC. This "Tetris-style" word game will help make the learning curve less substantial and make conquering it a bit more fun. And once you've mastered Fitaly, it is by far the fastest input method. The availability of FitalyLetris has drawn me back and I'm starting to use Fitaly again.

WordLogic folks, you need to stop resting on your laurels and update your product.

Unreal32
11-19-2002, 07:07 PM
I always have liked MyScript. I use it in place of Calligrapher/Transcriber and love it.

http://www.visionobjects.com/

edgar
11-19-2002, 08:44 PM
I also vote for Fitaly. I am not a speed demon, but the larger keys are a blessing. My only complaint is that Fitaly will occasionally not open when I attempt to switch from the regular keyboard. I have not been able to isolate the conditions under which this occurs. A soft reset always cures the problem.

unxmully
11-19-2002, 09:36 PM
If you have trouble with Fitaly maybe FitalyLetris can help. It's a training game available free at http://www.fitaly.com/fitalyletrisppc/fitalyletrisinfo.htm .

I've been a fitaly user for three years. Top piece of sftware IMHO.

ThomasC22
11-19-2002, 09:45 PM
I too, will vote for Fitaly. What it came down to for me was this, Fitaly was hard to learn but I knew there was a great pay off if I did (e.g. My PocketPC would actually be a device I could use to input large amounts of text on). So I put a real effort into getting it down and it made all the difference in the world.

But why I really wanted to reply in this thread was this comment:

I'm doing a lot more text entry on my Pocket PC. I wish it had an integrated keyboard a la Treo - I agreed with that part of Walt Mossbergs assessment at least.

THANK YOU! I mean honestly, lets face some facts, Handspring has released some lousy products that add no innovation of any kind for the last year and a half, and yet still they live. Why? THE KEYBOARD!

Blackberry's are really lame devices. Bad graphics, poor interface, average battery life. How does this company possibly get by. THE KEYBOARD!

Now, with that in mind, it baffles me that not one PocketPC manufacturer has thought "Hey, maybe we should try a device with an integrated Keyboard" Very, VERY frustrating (and my very well force me to go with Blackberries for my company!)

Will T Smith
11-20-2002, 02:08 AM
When I first used Fitaly, I saw the obvious advantage of low pen travel. However, I wasn't able to fully utilize it because it didn't have a "TRAINING" App.

Fortunately, Fitaly has just released FitalyLetris for PocketPC. The app is by no means perfect. However, it provides a somewhat fun/interactive method of internalizing the Fitaly key layout so you no longer have to think about "where the z key is". You just know, the same way you would for a QWERTY keyboard layout.

Before you overlook Fitaly, Give Letris a try.

---------

BTW, I'd also like to see the Fitaly keyboard layout implemented in physical handheld devices such as label printers. QWERTY doesn't translate well to one-handed devices. I've also seen far too many devices that adopt an ALPHABETICAL key layout which ends up being both alien AND inefficient.

Jeff Rutledge
11-20-2002, 02:21 AM
I've done a little bit of testing with each of these. In fact, I currently have Calligrapher, FITALY and WordLogic installed on my 3870.

I find myself using FITALY the most. The more you use it, the faster you get.

I did some speed tests as well. I found WordLogic fastest for straight text. As long as you're writing normal sentences in a normal paragraph, it's great. I find it really slows down when I have to capitalize, or use numbers or symbols. This is where FITALY shines, overall text entry.

And now that Letris is out, I am really noticing myself get faster and faster.

Still, when all is said and done, I am by far fastest with my Blackberry on the thumb keyboard. It's the main reason I use a RIM. I have a BT phone and can get my email wirelessly on my iPAQ, but replying is too slow and frustrating. I need my RIM to be useful with email.

HTH.

Timothy Rapson
11-20-2002, 02:48 AM
FITALY!



I am over 40 WPM with Fitaly and I don't type much faster on a real desktop keyboard. It does take a while. Keep at it.

Or try another bizzare entry for phones and PDAs alike:

http://www.exideas.com/

It is all slides and odd taps and moves, but it looks like a lot of work went into it. There is still time for a lot of ideas to come out. Who knows what will out, while we wait for the Star Trek ideal of complete voice recognition.

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
11-20-2002, 03:22 AM
FITALY!!

In sit-down sessions where I have a table, I'll use my Stowaway, but if either the table or the Stowaway is not available, it's FITALY.

I first tried it with my EM500 many many months ago (long before the Letris was available on PPC). I remember the FITALY site had some tips for new users (practicing certain letter combinations, different words, etc.). I would also just pick up a newspaper and practice inputting an article.

After one hour of solid practice, it was as fast as any other SIP method was for me and after a couple more hours, it was easily the fastest method of input (about 30 wpm at that time).

It is now the first thing I install whenever I do a hard-reset!

Interesting that I haven't seen many "transcriber" people responding. I remember this question coming up long ago on another thread (not sure which board) and there were so many transcriber folks.

Jeff Kirvin
11-20-2002, 03:52 AM
FITALY! :lol:

I was like you. I tried FITALY in the fall of 1999 with my Nino and gave up on it. Gave me headaches trying to find letters. When I got my iPAQ I found myself using it more and more and Character Recognizer wasn't (and still isn't) as good as JOT was. So I tried FITALY again and stuck with it. Now, I am in the 40wpm range and the benefit of having shortcuts, macros and so many symbols one click away are enormous.

Dangit, Ed, we gotta quit liking the same things. First PocketNav and now this...

I also used to be a die-hard Graffiti (block recognizer) user and broke out the foldable whenever I needed serious text entry. Since getting an XDA, I've yet to buy a foldable and I decided to give Fitaly another go. I'm up to 40 wpm and frequently write entire columns in one sitting using no other input method. Fitaly looks funny, but it's bloody fast when you get used to it...

Dave Beauvais
11-20-2002, 05:29 AM
Interesting that I haven't seen many "transcriber" people responding. I remember this question coming up long ago on another thread (not sure which board) and there were so many transcriber folks.
Ooh! Ooh! Me! When I'm doing lots of input -- say for an e-mail or notes for an appointment or task -- I use Transcriber, simply because it's faster (for me) than the other standard input options. With longer things, it's easier to correct the inevitable mistake that Transcriber makes. (Though with "training," Transcriber is remarkably accurate.) With short instant messages with MSN Messenger, or just quick things like entering contact info I'll use Letter Recognizer or the standard on-screen keyboard.

The built-in input methods suit me just fine. I do wish there was a thumb keyboard for the e740, though.

--Dave

Adam
11-20-2002, 10:14 AM
I also vote for Fitaly. I am not a speed demon, but the larger keys are a blessing. My only complaint is that Fitaly will occasionally not open when I attempt to switch from the regular keyboard. I have not been able to isolate the conditions under which this occurs. A soft reset always cures the problem.

I saw the same behaviour with the KeyStrokeCE system. I wonder if it's a problem within the OS, not the apps?

msprague
11-20-2002, 02:39 PM
If you have trouble with Fitaly maybe FitalyLetris can help. It's a training game available free at http://www.fitaly.com/fitalyletrisppc/fitalyletrisinfo.htm .

I've been a fitaly user for three years. Top piece of sftware IMHO.
Since FitalyLetris works with any input method it is a great way to compare them. I was going back and forth between Fitaly and Transcriber, then I compared my speeds in FitalyLetris and found that my Fitaly was 30% faster (a whole 25 WPM :wink: ) and I am still making noticable speed improvents.

msprague
11-20-2002, 02:45 PM
I also vote for Fitaly. I am not a speed demon, but the larger keys are a blessing. My only complaint is that Fitaly will occasionally not open when I attempt to switch from the regular keyboard. I have not been able to isolate the conditions under which this occurs. A soft reset always cures the problem.
And why is it that you are switching from the regular keyboard? :? Make Fitaly your default and never look back!

Check this out:
Dom Perignon III Speed Contest (http://www.fitaly.com/domperignon/domperignon3.htm) How Fast Can You Type on Your PDA?
Current Results (http://fitaly.com/board/domper3/index.html)

AndrewShuttleworth
11-21-2002, 05:00 AM
I use Calligrapher. It does take some getting used to and you may have to change the way you write some letters but I find that's it's easier to write a whole flow of text that you may have in your head without losing track by concentrating on the keyboard. Does anyone who is proficient with Fitaly or other keyboards have any comments on this?

The other great thing about Calligrapher are the powerful Pen Commander macros which you activate by writing one or more characters and circling them. It looks like you can do almost anything with the macros although my development skills are very basic so I use it for keyboard short cuts like Ctrl+Shift+Left to highlight a word or to add http://www..com to the relvant places of a word to the left of the cursor. You can also use it to start programs and perform mouse clicks so for example I can use it to start the Remote Display Control and answer all the dialogs with one shortcut.

Back to the writing part of Calligrapher, you can also write shortcuts for any letters you really find impossible. I'd also advise reading the manual - there are some tips in there about what to do to maximise perfromance.

I'd be willing to give Fitaly a try if I thought I could improve speed significantly. I was happy to see the link about the Dom Perignon III Speed Contest - now hopefully I'll be able to test my speed to compare results.

I wonder whether Calligrapher is still being developed. I read the system is part of what is being used on Tablet PCs. I'd like to see some improvements especially a learning function and although I can't even do shorthand with a pen, it would be interesting if shorthand could be used with Calligrapher to make it even faster.

Fianlly, some people have already mentioned voice recognition. When I get chance I plan to take a look at the software out there to see if there is anything that can speed up certain tasks. I can't imagine talking to my Pocket PC though, at least not in the office or in public places.

Andrew

Ekkie Tepsupornchai
11-21-2002, 02:22 PM
I use Calligrapher. It does take some getting used to and you may have to change the way you write some letters but I find that's it's easier to write a whole flow of text that you may have in your head without losing track by concentrating on the keyboard. Does anyone who is proficient with Fitaly or other keyboards have any comments on this?
As a FITALY user, I will say that one drawback of FITALY is that you do need to see the keyboard as you are inputting text (unlike transcriber / calligrapher), but you don't necessarily waste any energy "concentrating" on it. Once you know the keyboard layout, you'll be inputting text automatically without much thought.

I'd be willing to give Fitaly a try if I thought I could improve speed significantly.
Remember that with handwriting recognition, you need to write out each letter where with a method like FITALY, it's one quick tap per letter. Once you know the layout, your input becomes a series of rapid taps. That's something that just can't be matched with handwriting.

Eciton
11-21-2002, 03:26 PM
Watching the last Dom Perignon competition winners tapping was truly an awesome sight - so efficient. I wonder what the record is for fastest qwerty typing with ten fingers by comparison? I'm at 90wpm on a full keyboard and 40wpm on Fitaly, but I can really see myself getting faster at tapping with more practice. It's true that writing a character takes much more time than a tap, but sometimes you just need the human touch :D

AndrewShuttleworth
11-21-2002, 05:06 PM
Remember that with handwriting recognition, you need to write out each letter where with a method like FITALY, it's one quick tap per letter. Once you know the layout, your input becomes a series of rapid taps. That's something that just can't be matched with handwriting.

Although with Calligrapher because you can join letters together as you would with normal handwriting you are not really writing individual letters but short strings. I think this makes it easier to think about the word or the sentance rather than each character. I sometime write the length of the screen twice over the top of the first screen of text to get in a full sentance. I also find interesting that the recognition is better when I get in a flow like this. This brings to mind another benefit of Calligrapher - the fact that it takes up zero valuable screen space unless you choose to use the tool bar. Which reminds me - I should look up the short cuts for the tool bar functions so I don't need to use it.

One tip for people trying Calligrapher - I'm finding the recognition is greatly increased if you hold the device exactly 90 degrees to the written text. There is a function for writing at angles but the angles seem to be too steep to be of any use. One of the tips I got from the manual is that the upper part of the character should be proportionally larger than the lower part. This has also helped increase recognition.

Andrew