Does OS 5 Catch Up to the Pocket PC in High End Features?

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://apnews.excite.com/article/20021107/D7N4UR0G0.html">http://apnews.excite.com/article/20021107/D7N4UR0G0.html</a><br /><br />Palm OS 5 devices like the Tungsten T and Sony Clie NX series have been out a week or so now and people have had a chance to play with them. Does OS 5 bring Palm OS devices up to speed with their Pocket PC counterparts when it comes to multimedia and document handling?<br /><br />Read for yourself. The author makes some interesting points. Source: Greg Sperber

[T-Will]

OS5 sounds impressive.....:sleeping:

[ThomasC22]

Well, I see a little good and a little bad in this.

The good is that people are realizing that the PalmOS5 is not in the same league as the PocketPC featurewise. Further, people don't seem to be touting the "Palm is easier to use" mantra so much anymore. Not that I disagree with that, I believe Palm is easier to use, but at the same time any reasonably intelligent adult should be able to figure out a PocketPC fairly easily.

The bad is that, even with it's limitations, the Sony displays that Palm licensees are still ahead of the PocketPC in hardware innovation. Say what you will about the Treo it is a good hardware device, and Sony, well if Sony would just break down and use the PPC OS they'd win by a landslide.

So, it's still a wash really. I've choosen PPC but I can't fault the Palmies.

[Brad Adrian]

STILL no multi-tasking! :twisted: There is nothing worse, IMO, than needing to close every application before trying to use another.

[Timothy Rapson]

The file thing really needed fixing. It is bad, just plain bad. On the other hand it may be that the fact that the Palm OS will not let one install files willy nilly is the reason it is more stable. I may get a PPC device again in Christmas 2003. Then I can compare the stability advances MS may have made. But, I take the bad lack of real files with the good lack of resets and slowdowns.

The guy in the article was 100% wrong about music files. All Clies can play music while reading Ebooks. He was also wrong about multi-tasking. Honestly, I have had a PSion Mako that did multi-task (at least I assume it did as you had to leave the datebook program open when you went to another program if you wanted the alarms to actually alarm you). I had a mono IPaq that surely did multi-task, but I don't know what I cared. I was not downloading pages or printing them while running other programs. You can't even have two pages open in PocketWord, but since you don't have the screen space to do so with any purpose, what difference does it make?

Now, my Clie clearly does not multi-task, but with the cool new launcher at the bottom of my software FITALY screen I can switch from any of 20 programs to any other in one or two taps at least as fast as my Ipaq could switch to programs already running in the multi-tasking PPC OS in background. The bottom line is that my Clie is faster and and easier to get from program to program in and that is what I want to do. (OK, you can probably do this with one of the dashboard-like programs power users add to their PPCs, but my point is that you don't need multitasking if task switching is well implemented)

Overall though, I am disappointed in Palm OS 5. I don't know if the biggest disapointment is the almost total lack of new features, the crashing when old programs run, or the fact that it is a year late. Too little, too late, too poorly done. I had a friend who was a successful entrepeneur and he said the key to his successful sales was that he made sure every customer got all he expected and at least some little thing he did not. What has Palm delivered that was better than expected? Nothing.

I am again happy that I got my NR70V at the end of the OS cycle. Things run very well on it, even a lot of stuff that is as old as the hills like DiddleBug are rock solid.

[Macguy59]

Palm 5 was meant to be just a port of 4 to the ARM processor. Boring to be sure, but if even half the things I am reading about about Palm 6 come to be true. . .we will have a fight on our hands.

[Anthony Caruana]

So OS5 running on the latest Palm hardware (last generation PPC hardware except for the screen) is still struggling to stuff we did with slower processors back in the Palm sized PC days. :rock on dude!:

When will they learn that learning a new way to write does not make a device easier to use. Has it occurred to the designers of OS5 that if you are going to provide apps for reading ebooks and listening to music then people may actually want to use them at the same time?

Gee, multitasking has been around in OS design for an awful long time. I suspect the "O" in OS means Ostrich at the Palm HQ :P

[sponge]

Is Palm catching up to PPC in features? No. Is the Clie? Yes, and doing a very good job in even surpassing some of it, the sound quality is supposedly better than most PPCs out there, the camera, keyboard, screen (supposedly one has/will have 640x480 pixels.) I'd be much more wary about Palm's life if it weren't for Sony dragging Palm on it's back.

[Gremmie]

Going to have to wait for PalmOS 6 before it can be really compared to PPC's. I haven't seen as many PalmOS v. PPC debates in awhile since both have established their best uses. PalmOS 6 will be the high end revolution, right now we're in the price revoultion.

[yellow1]

As sad as it is, the Tungsten I played with yesterday brought me all the way back to late '97 when I bought my USR Palm 500 (or 1000?).

It's amazing how little they've able to chang in 5 years which is almost a lifetime in the computer world.

[MikeUnwired]

I have to disagree with some of the points made both here and in the article. I'm not sure about the Sony hardware as the poster child for OS 5. The writer took issue with the Sony memory stick and lack of CF support -- clearly a brand-based issue that has nothing to do with OS 5.

I have been using a Tungsten T in tandem with my iPAQ 3835. I haven't had the thumbnail rendering slowness on my Tungsten that was seen on the Sony -- storing the photo files on the SD Card BTW.

The PIM features render lightning fast compared to my iPAQ. The unit recovers from beaming much faster as well. The simple web browser screens through my Sony-Ericsson T68i Bluetooth/GPRS connection is smaller than Pocket Explorer because of the hardware, but the pages render more quickly.

Granted, I'm using a non-XScale unit, but the demo 3955 in my shop produces much the same results.

Multimedia rendering with the Kinoma Player is as quick as Windows Media Player. A drawback on the shipped units so far has been a lack of OS 5 compatable MP3/WMA player -- which time will solve I'm sure.

The PPC platform and hardware can "multitask". Of course, on a 4" wide screen, you can only view one window at a time anyway. The Palm's, other than running utilities in the background, tasks applications as well as PPC's. That's a big "other than" for some, but in reality, I can switch from app to app as fast on a Palm as I can on a multitasking PPC -- if not faster. For instance, I can work on a QuickWord file, switch to my email to cut and paste a block of text, switch back to the QuickWord file -- right where I left off -- switch to the calculator to compute some numbers, switch back to the email to send a reply with the numbers and the wordprocessing file as an attachment -- with my Bluetooth-based GPRS connection enabled the whole time. That's pretty multitasking to me.

I don't know, maybe I'm missing the point on multitasking, but I've been a "Power" PDA user since 1998 -- with both Palm's and PPC's -- and I haven't done more of a multitask than what I just walked through in all that time.

One VERY positive utility that hasn't been pointed out is the Phone Link app that ships with the Tungsten. If the PPC Connection Wizard was as easy and intuitive I would have never even looked at a Tungsten. I have never, after 4 months of trying with hours of invested time, gotten a reliable connection with Bluetooth through my T68i. The best I ever did was a single page view in Pocket Explorer. I would have to disconnect the T68i from the GPRS and reinitiate a new connection FOR EACH SUBSEQUENT PAGE VIEW! I had the same issue with the Palm m515 / SD I/O card too, so it wasn't platform specific. The phone was suspect, the AT&T service was questionable, but in the end, the Tungsten handled the set-up and worked the FIRST TIME I TRIED!

I really have found that both platforms have strengths and weaknesses. That's why I use both. I do have to say that the new Tungsten is getting more of my attention these days than my m515 did just two weeks ago.

My iPAQ is spending most of its time as a MP3 player in my Jag -- a noble service since most people who know me know how much I LOVE to drive my Jag. I'm actually thinking of adding a GPS attachment to the iPAQ as Radio Shack has these $99 GPS attachments. I can probably sync my iPAQ with my home network without even taking it out of the car as I have WIFI set-up already. I COULD do the same with the Tungsten, but I'd have to either move my access point closer to the driveway, add a BT access point or set-up a PC with BT dongle closer to the driveway for access to the network (30 foot range issues.) The GPS works with the Palm's too BTW and the MP3's are a week or two away.

So, to round this up. Pocket PC's are great, so are Palm's. OS 5 isn't a major departure from OS 4 on the surface, but the new hardware certainly is -- in a positive way. OS 5 paves the way for a new generation of Palm hardware and software capabilities that will help its users become more productive, effective and efficient. Like every other product in this world, you have choices -- and I'm glad, in whatever iteration it comes in -- that handheld users have choices too.

[Take1]

I have been a long time CE/PPC user and a fairly recent (1 year) user of the Palm OS device. I still use both platforms,l and can say both platforms have their advantages.

Multitasking -- Palms can emulate multitasking using DAs (Desktop Accessories). I can listen to music while doing other things on my NR-70 thanks to the separate DSP chip which runs independantly from the Dragonball processor (2 tasks - 2 processors). Works fine! There are times I find a lack of true multitasking a pain, but it's not really a devestating thing -- more an annoyance.

RAM on a palm device is pretty much one big folder containing everything programs, DB, files, etc. (there are no subfolders). VFS on the MS is just like what you'd find on a SD/CF on a PPC device with folders and subfolders. Accessing and organizing these files would be horrible if it weren't for 3rd party file managers like McFile, Filez, etc. You cannot install programs on MS/SD on a Palm device like PPC -- you must use a special program PiDirect to emulate RAM and you also must manually start the program everytime you soft reset the device otherwise programs will not be 'seen' by the Palm OS.

All in all I'd say the audio on my 3835 beatss the Sony by a fair margin in both richness and bass response. The NR does beat the 37xx and all other PPCs in audio, but the 38xx and 39xx have the best sound on any PDA on the planet.

[Pony99CA]

STILL no multi-tasking! :twisted: There is nothing worse, IMO, than needing to close every application before trying to use another.
It's not so bad on the Palm, though. How many applications will you have to shut down if it won't multiitask? :-D

Steve

[Pony99CA]

The guy in the article was 100% wrong about music files. All Clies can play music while reading Ebooks. He was also wrong about multi-tasking. Honestly, I have had a PSion Mako that did multi-task (at least I assume it did as you had to leave the datebook program open when you went to another program if you wanted the alarms to actually alarm you). I had a mono IPaq that surely did multi-task, but I don't know what I cared. I was not downloading pages or printing them while running other programs. You can't even have two pages open in PocketWord, but since you don't have the screen space to do so with any purpose, what difference does it make?

No difference at all. Oh, wait! Wouldn't a lack of multitasking make using GPS while playing MP3s on my iPAQ 3870 while driving a bit difficult? (If you can play MP3s while using GPS on the Clie, replace "playing MP3s" with "playing Audible books".)

Steve to self: "I'd better stop this song and switch to the GPS to see where that next turn is. DAMN!"

:roll:

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I don't know, maybe I'm missing the point on multitasking, but I've been a "Power" PDA user since 1998 -- with both Palm's and PPC's -- and I haven't done more of a multitask than what I just walked through in all that time.

Maybe -- see below.... :-)


My iPAQ is spending most of its time as a MP3 player in my Jag -- a noble service since most people who know me know how much I LOVE to drive my Jag. I'm actually thinking of adding a GPS attachment to the iPAQ as Radio Shack has these $99 GPS attachments.

If you saw my "Multi-Tasking (Part II)" posting, you'll get the pont now. If you want to play MP3s and use GPS at the same time, you can do that on the Pocket PC. I do that occasionally without any problem.

Can it be done on a Palm? (I'm not asking to be coy; I really don't know.) If so, what about Audible content? I can also download a Web page or check E-mail, then switch away to play a game while I wait.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

The review seemed fairly positive on the Pocket PC (whether that's a bias, I don't know). However, I loved this line:


Thanks to the new OS, the Clie's processor is several times faster than the fastest old Palm. This allows the Clie to use its little camera to record video.

I didn't realize that an operating system could actually speed up a processor. Maybe I need to get a refesher course in Computer Science. :roll:

Steve

[unxmully]

The review seemed fairly positive on the Pocket PC (whether that's a bias, I don't know). However, I loved this line:


Thanks to the new OS, the Clie's processor is several times faster than the fastest old Palm. This allows the Clie to use its little camera to record video.

I didn't realize that an operating system could actually speed up a processor. Maybe I need to get a refesher course in Computer Science. :roll:

Steve

Well Microsoft consistently manages to slow hardware down with an OS upgrade. OK so the CPU doesn't go slower but it does less for you the user. :?

[SJ]

OS 5, hmm...still no Multitasking, still need to convert all data to pdb files, I can't understand why?

For the guys who don't understand MultiTasking, Multitasking is not simply switching from one application to another or back and forth. To do task switching you only need task manager. If your Palm can Multitask, then you can download email and sync your AvantGo channels simultaneously.
While waiting for them to finish you can play a bit of Bejewelled. That's Multitasking ;)

[roberto_torres]

STILL no multi-tasking! :twisted: There is nothing worse, IMO, than needing to close every application before trying to use another.


Not that I want to defend much the Palm OS but since I use both operating systems here are my thoughts:

I have never used multitasking on my PPC exept for MP3 and the Clie can have the audio player open at the same time as another program. On the Palms programs close automatically when you open another and also open instantly yo won't notice any difference.

Document handling:

That's why I still have to toot around a PalmOS based Clie. On Pocket office tables and other formatting are removed, with Documents to Go on the Clie nothing is lost from office documents (by the way the program is free with the Clie and Tungten). Also on the handheld Documents to go is way better and more capable than Pocket office, it even supports power point. I consider a pitty that Microsoft has not given enough juice to Pocket Office.

Multimedia:

Palms have higher resolution screens (Os 5 supports 320x320 and 320x480). But the Palm OS has a very long way to go in terms of entertaintment, they need games specially 3D games (I don't know if the OS is powerful enough for that). And they need Divx.


Roberto.

[Ed Hansberry]

For the guys who don't understand MultiTasking, Multitasking is not simply switching from one application to another or back and forth. To do task switching you only need task manager. If your Palm can Multitask, then you can download email and sync your AvantGo channels simultaneously.
While waiting for them to finish you can play a bit of Bejewelled. That's Multitasking ;)

Exactly. When I get online, Messenger automatically connects for me. I then fire up Inbox and begin a sync via VPN to my email server. While that is happening I can do whatever I want. If I am on a WiFi connection, I'll sync Avantgo and Pocket RSS.

All the while, music or Audible can be going on in the background.

[Timothy Rapson]

The guy in the article was 100% wrong about music files. All Clies can play music while reading Ebooks. He was also wrong about multi-tasking. Honestly, I have had a PSion Mako that did multi-task (at least I assume it did as you had to leave the datebook program open when you went to another program if you wanted the alarms to actually alarm you). I had a mono IPaq that surely did multi-task, but I don't know what I cared. I was not downloading pages or printing them while running other programs. You can't even have two pages open in PocketWord, but since you don't have the screen space to do so with any purpose, what difference does it make?

No difference at all. Oh, wait! Wouldn't a lack of multitasking make using GPS while playing MP3s on my iPAQ 3870 while driving a bit difficult? (If you can play MP3s while using GPS on the Clie, replace "playing MP3s" with "playing Audible books".)

Steve to self: "I'd better stop this song and switch to the GPS to see where that next turn is. DAMN!"

:roll:

Steve


You're asking if you can play MP3s and Audiobooks on the Clie at the same time the way you can on the PPC? How does one speaker play music and read aloud books at the same time? Without skipping or such? Anyway, the downloading is the best example of where multi-tasking could be helpful and this would only suit me for wireless duty. I don't use my PDA while it is in the cradle. I use the desktop. Like many of the others in this thread, I have used both PPC and Palm OS daily extensively and just don't see multi-tasking as very important until wireless or some other killer app that requires it is out. Now, when that comes PPC is already for it and Palm is not. Palm is leaving it's options closed and itself vulnerable. Their Tungsten W, for example, must be a big problem to use without M-T. I suppose they have some desk accessory sort of hack running to allow it to recieve calls or download "files" (more correctly called databases on the Palm OS) while doing other things. But this is not the optimal way to do it.

RE the first example. Yes, you can run any program that uses any port (except the stereo speaker, of course) while you are listening to music. Just like you could on a desktop before the OS was multi-tasking (when was that Windows 95? I know the Commodore Amiga had it first for consumers, but I don't think Windows had it until Win 95 and I don't know about Mac.)

Or were you just kidding?

[Ed@Brighthand]

The NX series and the other high-end Clie models can play music in the background but you have to enable this feature. It isn't hard, just a checkbox in the preferences for the application, but he isn't the only person to miss it. I'm going to strongly suggest to Sony that the change this in future versions of MP3 player. I don't understand why "Enable Background play" isn't the default.

So I'm not giving Mr. Svennson a hard time about that; however, there are other areas where I think he fell down on the job. He didn't mention parts of the NX70V that put it on par with Pocket PC handhelds, like the MPEG player and the Flash player. He should have brought up the 320 by 480 screen. He should also have mentioned the disappointing amount of RAM in both the Tungsten T and NX70V.

I agree with what other people have said; each platform has its strengths and weaknesses. The best current trend for us handheld users is that both platforms are increasing their range. With the release of OS 5, the Palm OS will be more competitive in features. With Dell and other companies releasing more mid-range and even low-end models, the Pocket PC is becoming more competitive in price. This leads to more choices for us and a better chance of finding a handheld that exactly fits our needs.

[BTS]

I agree with Ed that both platforms have their strengths.

I have, however, decided that I'm going to pass up on the Palm OS and go for a newer Pocket PC (I currently own 2 Palm OS and a Casio EM500). The biggest problem for me, with regard to the Palm, is the short-sightedness on how their notetaking and clipboard is implemented. You just cannot copy a great deal of text into the clipboard to move it to another application. On my Casio, I used my pen scanner to scan in pages of text. I then simply beamed it all to my PPC, copied it from the note app and into TextMaker. No hassles, no worries.

As for people who love to point out how poor Pocket Office is and that Docs To Go is better, well, they're right. BUT, you have to add Docs To Go to RAM and for the high end version you do have to pay. I'm using TextMaker for PPC (still in beta) and it's a wonderful, fully capable word processor. At a suggested price of $49.95 USD it's still cheaper than Docs To Go. Finally, the ability to use Transcriber or Calligrapher is a major coup. Learn to use them and you'll get close to 100% accuracy.

For me it's going to come down to price and the features you get for your money. With DELL and Viewsonic coming out the playing field is going to start to tip toward the PPC side. If Palm and Sony follow suit we're all going to win. :D

[Gremmie]

Dont forget Palm still has a better Word editor.

[mookie123]

So I'm not giving Mr. Svennson a hard time about that; however, there are other areas where I think he fell down on the job. He didn't mention parts of the NX70V that put it on par with Pocket PC handhelds, like the MPEG player and the Flash player. He should have brought up the 320 by 480 screen. He should also have mentioned the disappointing amount of RAM in both the Tungsten T and NX70V.

there is no such thing as .mpeg1 player for NX70. you have to convert it through Sony's format. So the question about quality of .mpeg1 between NX and any PPC is bunk.


I agree with what other people have said; each platform has its strengths and weaknesses. The best current trend for us handheld users is that both platforms are increasing their range. With the release of OS 5, the Palm OS will be more competitive in features.

what feature would that be? Sliding D-pad sold at $250 premium? eh hemm... where is the media player? Let's face it Tungsten is only Clie T655 running on ARM at this moment.


Also can brighthand explain how they got The iPAQ vs. Tungsten battery test result indicating TT last 1 day longer consistantly? NO other test in the entire net (be it on PIC, infosync, NG, etc) can duplicate this result.

several possibility:
1.you have broken iPAQ (please post comparative data under Dale's battery test configuration to assure the iPAQ does indeed have same battery performance)
2.the text is not done properly, tho' nobody knows since the process is not described.

I hope Brighthand can reasonably explain their review quality.



-------------- (exact copy of your article, just incase old habit of changing article without telling flare up again @ brighthand)

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Tungsten_T_review

Power. Battery life remains a cornerstone of the Palm philosophy and the Tungsten T is no exception, thanks in strong part to the stinginess of TI's OMAP processor. The T's rechargeable lithium ion battery should get the typical user about a week's worth of usage between charges. In our casual testing, we found that under identical processing patterns we achieved 1-2 more days of battery life from the Tungsten T than from a Compaq iPAQ 3970 Pocket PC. Unfortunately, the T's battery is not user replaceable, and it can only be charged through the serial port (there's no separate AC port), so you'll either have to charge it through the cradle or purchase a travel charger.

[Ed Hansberry]

He should have brought up the 320 by 480 screen. He should also have mentioned the disappointing amount of RAM in both the Tungsten T and NX70V.
Ed, other than the SIP the NX series has, what, if anything, does the NX70/60 series with OS5 have over the NR70 series/OS4.x device?
I agree with what other people have said; each platform has its strengths and weaknesses. The best current trend for us handheld users is that both platforms are increasing their range. With the release of OS 5, the Palm OS will be more competitive in features. With Dell and other companies releasing more mid-range and even low-end models, the Pocket PC is becoming more competitive in price. This leads to more choices for us and a better chance of finding a handheld that exactly fits our needs.
I can't wait until the sub-$300 Pocket PCs hit the streets. If the OEMs release quality products, it will definitely give Palm a run for the money. And if Sony keeps pushing the envelope and as OS6 rolls out, it will only push MS to work harder on their mobile device platform. The consumer is the winner in that battle. I firmly believe we have Sony to thank for the HP 1900, ViewSonic V35 and Dell Axim coming in at the price points they are.

[gliscameria]

I didn't hear any discussion on battery life. I can use my old clie every day for weeks and it never has to see the cradle. This seems to be a huge advantage of the old palms vs ppc.

Any word of battery life on the new palms?


CF definitely not a problem on palms, old handsprings have CF slots... as for how big of a CF card they can handle, I do not know.

I think as it stands now, the PPC is definitely a lot more versitile, but if you need something done quickly and RELIABLY, palm seems to have that. (Docs to go does eat PocketOfffice alive)

I just don't understand why palm would try to sell a 600$ device, I'm sure a lot of people think "I can buy a PPC for that much."

The only reason for buying a palm is because you don't have enough money for a ppc right? *coughsarcasmcough* :D

[mookie123]

Any word of battery life on the new palms?


-It's 900mAh batt.

-Palm says it lasts approximately one week, while iPAQ last 2 weeks, (before they change the comparison table to 10 hrs) NX60 last 10 days (half hr/day backlight off. ie 5 hr)

-The Tungsten T lasted 2 hours 48 minutes before throwing its first battery warning, and finally shut off after 3 hours 24 minutes. It also automatically reduced the backlight to 33% when the battery started to run low, and we left it at its reduced level.
http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2495,2.html

-some post in NG, about 3-4hrs depending on backlight.

make it what you want, but I don't see how Tungsten can outlast iPAQ3975

[MikeUnwired]

Someone wrote that the only reason someone would buy a Palm is because they can't afford a Pocket PC. Well, that's not true on any level.

I happen to own an iPAQ 3835 with PC Card Sleeve and a 5GB PC Card drive. I also own a Socket CF Bluetooth Card for the iPAQ. I think I've bellied-up a nice chunk of change for that system. I found that the iPAQ offers me little advantage over the Palm when the best I could do was an m515. Now that I have a Tungsten T, I have solved the main problem I've had with ALL THE PDA'S I'VE RECENTLY OWNED -- reliable data communications via Bluetooth through my AT&T Sony Ericsson T68i. I tried for three months to get it to seemlessly and regularly work. The Pocket PC is supposed to have the power and the ability, but it can't keep a connection open. Ed, our host here at PPC Thoughts has had the same configuration issues with his Bluetooth set-up -- so I feel like I'm in good company.

The Tungsten T's Phone Link and the new driver system works for me and has won it's place as my everyday PDA because of that one feature. The benefits of the PPC are dwarfed by this single issue for me and will continue to be until someone can produce a reliable solution that makes my iPAQ's browser and email work through the Bluetooth connection on my T68i.

Also, quite frankly, I like Palm -- I'm comfortable with it and it works for me. Like Martha says, "That's a good thing."

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed, our host here at PPC Thoughts has had the same configuration issues with his Bluetooth set-up -- so I feel like I'm in good company.

The Tungsten T's Phone Link and the new driver system works for me and has won it's place as my everyday PDA because of that one feature. The benefits of the PPC are dwarfed by this single issue for me and will continue to be until someone can produce a reliable solution that makes my iPAQ's browser and email work through the Bluetooth connection on my T68i.
Just to clarify, my setup was a 3870 and t68 (not "i") and is now a 3970 with the same t68, so the iPAQs have integrated bluetooth. My connections are rock solid once established and have had to soft reset the iPAQ or power cycle the t68 about equal times (say, 15% of the time?) before that connection is established. Going the CF route I can see would be a bit more hassle - you've introduced a third set of variables and gets into my whole gripe with bluetooth. :)

I have seen people with identical M515s and SD Bluetooth cards able to sync all day long with their PC but they couldn't get them to talk to each other without reseting the 515 and reseat the cards half a dozen times. When it is integrated as with the 3x70s and Tungsten, it is bound to be better, and that has been my experience with the iPAQs.

Also, quite frankly, I like Palm -- I'm comfortable with it and it works for me. Like Martha says, "That's a good thing."
Martha Stewart? I wonder if she'll be saying that after her conviction and during her time in the pokey? :wink: :lol:

[Timothy Rapson]

The biggest problem for me, with regard to the Palm, is the short-sightedness on how their notetaking and clipboard is implemented. You just cannot copy a great deal of text into the clipboard to move it to another application. :D


Good point. I miss being able to copy and paste all sorts of stuff of all sizes from one application to another very easily.

Does OS 5 allow bigger, better copy and paste between apps?

Also, the NX has all the PIMs and built-in apps running in HiRes+ full 320 by 480 with virtual graffiti up or down. I now also have the apps I use 90% of the time on my NR each running in HiRes+ 320 by 480 with the option to drop the soft graffiti section.

No matter how I tried I could never get transcriber to work and worse still it locked up my Ipaq frequently when I ran the Transcriber spell checker function. But, FITALY became very effective (I can manage 40 WPM easy on FITALY) and with all the choices no one could say that PPC isn't many times better for entering text than Palm OS.

[MikeUnwired]

With all my posturing and good comments about the Tungsten and OS 5, I actually returned it for credit today. I had some lock-up problems with Bejeweled for OS 5 on the particular unit I bought and I had lots of software I like that didn't play well with each other on OS 5 out of the box. For instance, Print Boy no longer worked with any of the core PIM applications, my SiPix A6 printer drivers didn't work and the stress of being an early adopter on this new platform was getting older with the minute while I'm actually trying to get something done. OS 5 has been available long enough for the developers of these popular programs to do some upgrading.

Today was the last day I could return a defective unit rather than send it in for service, and the shop was out of Tungsten's, so I just parted with the unit and moved on.

Since my main complaint with the iPAQ 3835 was Bluetooth connectivity issues for data services, I decided to forgo the whole Bluetooth thing entirely and buy a Sierra Wireless GSM/GPRS PC Card that I can slide into the sled on the iPAQ. I can still use a dual sled with the Bluetooth installed for dialing my phone if I need to...

I had been counting on the T-Mobile WIFI at the Starbucks that's 75 feet from my shop to get me connected on the iPAQ, but the manager of this particular Starbucks told me that they aren't getting the WIFI because they are a "mall store." So, as my plans changed, so too did the importance of features on my hardware.

I still like the Tungsten and like the opprotunities that exist with OS 5, but I currently just don't have the time to be a Palm "beta tester" for their new project as my main PDA.

[Ed Hansberry]

With all my posturing and good comments about the Tungsten and OS 5, I actually returned it for credit today. I had some lock-up problems with Bejeweled for OS 5 on the particular unit I bought and I had lots of software I like that didn't play well with each other on OS 5 out of the box. For instance, Print Boy no longer worked with any of the core PIM applications, my SiPix A6 printer drivers didn't work and the stress of being an early adopter on this new platform was getting older with the minute while I'm actually trying to get something done. OS 5 has been available long enough for the developers of these popular programs to do some upgrading.

That's a shame. I've seen comments in other forums where people are having trouble with mainstream apps on OS5, especially Avantgo, perhaps the most common third party app on the platform. That 80% compatibility number Palm touted doesn't seem to be holding up. Say what you want about the Pocket PC, I have never had any compatiblity problems with any app moving from Palm-sized to Pocket PC 2000 to Pocket PC 2002, games and drivers excepted - and on drivers only some NIC drivers. I've said for two years it took Microsoft from 1995 to 2001 to move from a 16bit based OS to a fully 32bit based OS (Windows XP) and I was very very skeptical that Palm could do it in two years. I'd wager that is why some of their new devices are still OS 4.x based, like the Tungsten W and Zire.

Good luck with the card. Too bad you don't have a 3x70 iPAQ with integrated bluetooth - it would work great with your T68, sans sled. Maybe you could put in 802.11b in your shop and charge Starbucks customers to use it. :wink:

[Take1]

Palm developers must be wetting their pants -- this is like XP for handhelds! This will generate more Palm OS5 software sales due to busted apps.

[Ed Hansberry]

Not likely. It is costing the developers. I've yet to see one charge for the upgraded app just to get it to work on OS5.

[Ed@Brighthand]

there is no such thing as .mpeg1 player for NX70. you have to convert it through Sony's format. So the question about quality of .mpeg1 between NX and any PPC is bunk.


Not exactly correct. Addmittedly using the desktop converter makes this easier because the player has some arbitrary (and silly) rules about what MPEGs can be named but if you copy an MPEG into the correct folder on the Memory Stick and name it correctly you can play it without ever touching the converter. This isn't theoretical; I've done it myself.

As for your other question, you'll have to take it up with Steve; he wrote the TT review.

[Ed@Brighthand]

Any word of battery life on the new palms?


-It's 900mAh batt.

-Palm says it lasts approximately one week, while iPAQ last 2 weeks, (before they change the comparison table to 10 hrs) NX60 last 10 days (half hr/day backlight off. ie 5 hr)

-The Tungsten T lasted 2 hours 48 minutes before throwing its first battery warning, and finally shut off after 3 hours 24 minutes. It also automatically reduced the backlight to 33% when the battery started to run low, and we left it at its reduced level.
http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2495,2.html

-some post in NG, about 3-4hrs depending on backlight.

make it what you want, but I don't see how Tungsten can outlast iPAQ3975

With no disrespect intended for Larry Garfield, I think the battery tests infoSync does are extremely unrealistic. It's a "torture test", in which the reviewer leaves the handheld on until the battery is dead. Considering handheld batteries are designed to perform best with intermittent use, running them for 3 or 4 hours straight isn't the best way to find out what they can do.

The only time torture test is even semi-useful is when you are comparing it with another handheld that has also been torture tested. Saying that a TT runs for 3-4 hours in a torture test while an iPAQ 3975 runs for much longer in a real world test is comparing apples and Tuesday.

Like I said, Steve did the TT review so I can't really comment too much on his results. As the review says, it was a non-scientific casual test. Basically, he used it normally and noticed how often he needed to recharge, and did the same thing with the iPAQ 3975. Like I said, non-scientific but I still prefer this to a torture test.

[Kati Compton]

With no disrespect intended for Larry Garfield, I think the battery tests infoSync does are extremely unrealistic. It's a "torture test", in which the reviewer leaves the handheld on until the battery is dead. Considering handheld batteries are designed to perform best with intermittent use, running them for 3 or 4 hours straight isn't the best way to find out what they can do.

The only time torture test is even semi-useful is when you are comparing it with another handheld that has also been torture tested. Saying that a TT runs for 3-4 hours in a torture test while an iPAQ 3975 runs for much longer in a real world test is comparing apples and Tuesday.

I both agree and disagree here. ;) I think it is important that the tests be of the same variety when comparing battery life of different units. And I can believe much handheld use is intermittent, with lots of "quick-ons" to check a contact or schedule. But for people playing games a lot, listening to mp3's, or most noteably, stuck on a long boring plane ride, the torture test would be very relevant. I want to know if I can get from NY to CA on a single charge.

[ppcsurfr]

Has anyone ever noticed why the Palm Tungsten T has a reset button as large as that of a Pocket PC?

With OS 5 being a stronger OS, I still can't believe that they are sticking to .pdb file extensions. Why the need for this???

Pocket PCs have long been able to read practically any file thrown at it... isn't that what's supposed to happen with OS5 too?

Honestly I was quite excited to see and play aroud with a Palm OS5 Tungsten T... then while playing a short 30sec. video clip it freezes. Too much for that... and when I asked if it could use standard video formats... it was a no go :(

Palm has wasted so much on it... the only thing good with it is the styling of the unit... There I agree that it is one sleek device. But one thing which I tink will not really last and will be the first thing to break... the locking mechanism for the slider and the slider itself.

ppcsurfr

[Ed Hansberry]

Palm is saying OS6 will clear up many of the shortcomings you mention. I think they are still sticking to the pdb database format though. Unlike CE, the Palm is so tightly integrated with the database format that doing anything else is a major overhaul. MAJOR OVERHAUL. CE uses an installable file system, like Windows NT/2K/XP/9X does, which is why they can switch from FAT16, FAT12, FAT32, and NTFS. NT can still access HPFS natively (The OS2 file system), as if anyone cares. :wink: :lol:

CE then uses databases, still integrated with the FAT file system, to store PIM and other data. Palm was never written to handle files in 1996, and it is still stuck with that model. that is why all of the conversions are necessary. All files are converted to databases. :roll:

[rave]

The only reason for buying a palm is because you don't have enough money for a ppc right? *coughsarcasmcough* :D
Exactly the reason why I bought a Palm IIIc instead of those flashy PPC's over a year ago. Not an excuse anymore, nowadays. The better Palms now are even more expensive than some PPC's. :D

[rave]

All Clies can play music while reading Ebooks.
Yes, thanks to the extra DSP that's on board. Now that's multitasking. Two processors, two tasks.

(Wow, maybe they should have put in an extra Dragonball so you can sync while you read ebooks while you play music. Simple, yet revolutionary solution! Simple as Palm...)

Anyway, is this the case for the newer NX's?

[EricMCarson]

The newer NX's still cannot sync while doing anything else (at least the unit I had to play with did not).

[Ed Hansberry]

The newer NX's still cannot sync while doing anything else (at least the unit I had to play with did not).
I don't think there is any way around that unless Sony added another processor or subsystem that operated outside of the Palm OS to do that. That would be multitasking. OS6 maybe.

[Bosco]

Well, like I said in the other thread, keep in mind full backup Hotsyncs (always a full backup) normally won't take longer than a minute, even if you install something that's 2 MB. There's always the Silkskin Changer, but I won't get into that again. :twisted:

[fbg111]

While I haven't used a Palm in years, I find that the critiques of PocketPC listed on this page:

http://www.palm.com/solutions/personal/docstogo/

are right on. MS really needs to do something about Pocket Word and Excel losing .doc and .xls formatting. It's shameful. In fact, for me it's the only flaw with PocketPC, otherwise my 3800 does everything I could possibly want it to.