View Full Version : Palm Targets Sucker Demographic with New Overpriced PDAs
Ed Hansberry
10-30-2002, 12:30 AM
<a href="http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/gmsv/4388559.htm">http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/gmsv/4388559.htm</a><br /><br />Seems I wasn't the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4396">only one that was questioning the value of a $499 PDA</a> with 14MB of usable RAM and no MP3 player as the new era of sub $300 Pocket PCs unfolds, although the unfolding is going slower than I would like <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35781">in Dell's case</a>.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20021029-barnum.jpg" /><br /><br />"With a $500 pricepoint, I think [Tungsten] is in trouble," Todd Kort, principal analyst with research company Gartner, told PC Advisor. "Dell is going to reset the market expectations for PDA pricing. I think the Tungsten product was conceived during a time when Dell's entry was not anticipated." <a href="http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2896011,00.html">ZDNET has similar thoughts in this article.</a><br /><br />Thanks to Foo Fighter for stirring things.....er for the links. :wink: <i>(Side note: scroll down that Silicon Valley page, guess who has been operating in the red recently and finally turned a profit again? I'll give you a hint - starts with an "S" and ends with an "ony.")</i>
Newsboy
10-30-2002, 12:32 AM
From "The Screen Savers" last night:
"None of the features: $499 All of the features: $599."
Comparing the new Tungsten T vs. the Sony Clie w/ built-in camera and thumb board. Guess which one they preferred. ;)
Ed Hansberry
10-30-2002, 12:37 AM
Guess which one they preferred. ;)
Leo's Jornada! :lol:
Newsboy
10-30-2002, 12:38 AM
But of course! Though Leo's eye did start to wander toward that Sony...if only it ran PPC. :)
sponge
10-30-2002, 01:28 AM
Hell, I'd buy a Clie just for the gadget factor. Very nice device, and they said something about a 640x480 screen?
ThomasC22
10-30-2002, 02:46 AM
Ouch...even Todd Kort at Gartner is turning on Palm these days...
Don't you people realize. You slide the little thing and the graffiti area disappears...DISAPPEARS! Why can't you all realize this feature alone is worth the extra $400?!?!? :D
Yup, seriuosly, Palm is in some real trouble here. The worst thing is that, at least from everyone I know, people really don't care how short a device is they care how thin a device is.
mookie123
10-30-2002, 03:03 AM
Somebody should run a tab, predicting at what year Sony will start using PPC.
The person who predict the closest from fartest time, win the bet. Of course this could turn PPC into some sort of international gambling ring. ...lol...
my bet would be November 2004. I put a nickle
Foo Fighter
10-30-2002, 03:09 AM
More bad press: http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2896011,00.html
Looks like the media shares our sentiments; Tungsten is overpriced. Consumers will have the final say when they vote with their pocket books..I think we all know what the outcome will be. Let's hope Palm gets the message.
Ed Hansberry
10-30-2002, 03:41 AM
hrm.... it would seem the Tungsten is more like the iPAQ 3600 than I gave it credit for. :lol: :lol: :lol:
It has DUST under the screen!
3-4 units between two people have it. http://forums.pdabuzz.net/showthread.php?threadid=43139
JornadaJ
10-30-2002, 04:08 AM
Dust...Oh no, not dust...anything but dust.
I went through five Jornadas because of dust...
ThomasC22
10-30-2002, 06:10 AM
hrm.... it would seem the Tungsten is more like the iPAQ 3600 than I gave it credit for. :lol: :lol: :lol:
It has DUST under the screen!
Well, we all knew this was going to happen, now that Palm has been dragged kicking and screaming into innovation they're having to play catch up to the PocketPC now.
Take1
10-30-2002, 11:26 AM
Since when has Palm EVER priced their units for what they are really worth? Never. The Vx, M5xx were stupidly overpriced for what you got. Even the Zire is a rip-off at $99 (you can get an m105 on sale for $75.) The Tungsten's no differerent. The NR-70v was overpriced, but offered things not available in other PDAs (camera, 320 x 480 screen). With a transflective screen, the Tungsten would be a fair deal at $300.
Gee Ed, what's the PT Barnum icon supposed to mean? :wink:
Jonathon Watkins
10-30-2002, 11:43 AM
hrm.... it would seem the Tungsten is more like the iPAQ 3600 than I gave it credit for. :lol: :lol: :lol:
It has DUST under the screen!
Well, we all knew this was going to happen, now that Palm has been dragged kicking and screaming into innovation they're having to play catch up to the PocketPC now.
Next thing you know there will be a scandal about Palm saying had 16 bit colour when it's ony 12 bit colour - WAIT - it's already happened! :wink: What happens next? Ah yes - I remember now - Dell enters the handheld market and kicks everyone's butts. :P :lol:
Talldog
10-30-2002, 03:05 PM
It has DUST under the screen!
It's interesting that the Tungsten line is being marketed to "power users". It seems to me that those are the users who have had it up to their eyeballs with the dust issue. There's no longer any excuse for this.
I for one don't give a darn about dust under the screen. I had a couple specks under my Palm m515 screen, and I have a couple under my e740 screen as well. If you all are half as neurotic about dust on your screen as you are about dust behind the screen, you must live in a bubble (or at least own a whole lot of HEPA filtration devices).
Regarding the Tungsten T, I think it looks like a good deal for the money. I find 15MB to be adequate on my Sony T615. Palm OS machines do less than PPCs do, but some of us like the way they do things enough to justify the price. I bet that many of the members in this forum still carry both a Palm OS device and a PPC (I usually carry an e740 and an m500). I don't understand why so many of you feel the need to bash Palm, but I think it springs from insecurity.
Ed Hansberry
10-30-2002, 05:53 PM
Regarding the Tungsten T, I think it looks like a good deal for the money.
That is the issue that most have with it though. For $349, you can get a Toshiba e330 at Amazon.com that has 64MB of RAM, a 300MHz processor, full MP3/WMA capabilities and a file system that makes putting files on your storage card simple.
The only thing you don't get is bluetooth integrated. You can get a bluetooth SD card for $120 or so, so that puts it at $469, still $30 cheaper than the Palm and now has everything and more.
As many have said, this device at $499 is rediculious. $399 would make tons more sense and $299-$349 is the real spot this should be.
As for dust, if they had used transflective like Sony/HP/ViewSonic, this wouldn't be a problem.
Jonathan1
10-30-2002, 06:15 PM
I for one don't give a darn about dust under the screen.
Heh. Haven't played around with Palm in 2 year so I don't know if you can do this but on a Pocket PC if you apply a darker motif either by changing the colors or applying a theme those light specs of dust WILL drive you crazy after a time. Try making that above statement again when watching a movie. Or having a dark background. It does get annoying after a while. Dust is a defect plain and simple. would you accept 5 or 6 dead pixels on your laptop or desktop display after working with it for a week?
Palm is learning the ins and outs of reflective tech. They are the newbie here and are going to be seriously slapped around by the consumer until they fix this problem. How much you wanna bet that that users are already calling Palm up over this issue. How much you want to bet that Palm, at least initially is going to ignore the problem? They did it with the color depth issue. They did it with sudden sync death syndrome on the 505's. I'll bet they are going to do the same here as well
Regarding the Tungsten T, I think it looks like a good deal for the money.
That is the issue that most have with it though. For $349, you can get a Toshiba e330 at Amazon.com that has 64MB of RAM, a 300MHz processor, full MP3/WMA capabilities and a file system that makes putting files on your storage card simple.
The only thing you don't get is bluetooth integrated. You can get a bluetooth SD card for $120 or so, so that puts it at $469, still $30 cheaper than the Palm and now has everything and more.
As many have said, this device at $499 is rediculious. $399 would make tons more sense and $299-$349 is the real spot this should be.
Comparing RAM, processor speed, etc between a Palm and a PPC is pointless when you consider how different the two really are. We pay for the whole system, and not all good things are quantifiable specs. When you read a review of a digital camera, what is more important, the # of megapixels, or the way the photos look in the end?
mookie123
10-30-2002, 06:36 PM
Comparing RAM, processor speed, etc between a Palm and a PPC is pointless when you consider how different the two really are. We pay for the whole system, and not all good things are quantifiable specs. When you read a review of a digital camera, what is more important, the # of megapixels, or the way the photos look in the end?
So which one do you think is better deal NX 60 or Tungsten?
...ahh yes, you have to compere specs too. and NX60 use Xscale ....etc. etc...
or do you compare both device based on the amount of aura they both emits?
and yes, megapixels number correlate to the picture fidelity. That's why people consider megapixels as one parameter.
Janak Parekh
10-30-2002, 06:37 PM
Comparing RAM, processor speed, etc between a Palm and a PPC is pointless when you consider how different the two really are.
To some extent, yes, they scale differently, but they're not completely incomparable. Try loading ebooks or pictures on your Palm; it will run out of memory far before the equivalent PPC, because the PPC just has more RAM. I keep a ton of ebooks on my iPaq all the time. I couldn't do that on any Palm without expansion memory. You can buy a SD card, but that just ups the price.
Also, how do you find this a good deal? I think the current Clie's are a far, far better deal. With the T, you're getting a hires screen and bluetooth over the m515, and that's currently it. $500 for that isn't a deal IMHO.
--bdj
Ed Hansberry
10-30-2002, 06:50 PM
Comparing RAM, processor speed, etc between a Palm and a PPC is pointless when you consider how different the two really are.
That may have been true a year or two years ago. Now, Palm as added:
Voice Recording
MP3 something (not capbilitites, but support maybe - Sony is there with software anyway)
Hi res screens
150MHz+ processors
Limited multitasking with apps like AIM and music
Storage cards.
You tell me that isn't playing catch up. Palm and Pocket PC are head to head with many features now.
Palm has been catching up to PPC in many respects while remaining fundamentally different (not worse) in other respects. Those differences are what for some of us are willing to pay. I see myself having both a high-end Palm and a high-end PPC for the next year or two; they are both worth the money to me.
By the way, I would have thought the whole XScale debacle would change the way so many PPC users blindly compare specs like processor speed.
mookie123
10-30-2002, 07:34 PM
Palm has been catching up to PPC in many respects while remaining fundamentally different (not worse) in other respects. Those differences are what for some of us are willing to pay. I see myself having both a high-end Palm and a high-end PPC for the next year or two; they are both worth the money to me.
By the way, I would have thought the whole XScale debacle would change the way so many PPC users blindly compare specs like processor speed.
ahh semantic games.
The so called 'difference' in some quarters are also called shortcomings and compromise. How many RAM do you have left after you install all your basic software? is there even room for any program that require 2MB to run, let alone your favorite ebook and personal files. And that's only memory aspect alone.
The Xscale debacle,
Compared to OS 5.0's PACE, memory and thread management and file system , the talk of debacle is like comparing pimple to boubonic plague.
Ed Hansberry
10-30-2002, 07:48 PM
It is great to disagree and debate, but lets try not to get into denegrating others thought processes or examples, ok? Not aimed at anyone, just a general reminder, self included. :twisted:
Wasn't it Rodney King that said "Can I have cheese with that?" Or something like that anyway. :?
Newsboy
10-30-2002, 08:37 PM
By the way, I would have thought the whole XScale debacle would change the way so many PPC users blindly compare specs like processor speed.
The benefit of XScale is not *just* speed, but also lower power consumption. Granted, it is no faster overall than an ARM device, but battery life is significantly improved.
And there have been (and continue to be) many examples of hardware outpacing software capabilities. Intel's 3 Ghz desktop processor is an example. It can perform hyper-threading, yet no software exists that supports it yet. Is this a good reason *not* to buy it? No.
brntcrsp
10-30-2002, 09:07 PM
sorta off topic but I see that you've been quoted in the latest Tech Specialist issue, Ed, regarding this topic. Congrats.
I have wasted enough breath. Bash away. I will continue to enjoy both the PPC and Palm OS devices; and when I get some more PDA money allotted by the wife, I will spend it on the Tungsten T, which is as well-priced as any PDA in my opinion.
ThomasC22
10-30-2002, 11:52 PM
I have wasted enough breath. Bash away. I will continue to enjoy both the PPC and Palm OS devices; and when I get some more PDA money allotted by the wife, I will spend it on the Tungsten T, which is as well-priced as any PDA in my opinion.
OK, as one of the resident "try to be fair to both side" guys I have to say I think you're being unreasonable here.
The way I see it you haven't really provided a rebuttle to any of the points that have been given, you've simply restated your own opinion. Then when people disagree you get angry which isn't really fair.
Keep in mind a few points:
1 - BigDaddyJ didn't attack the Palm platform, he simply stated that he thought the Clie was a better deal (which honestly, how could you not).
2 - EdH made the point that because Palm is trying to do many of the same things PocketPCs it is fair to compare them on a common scale. You basically didn't respond to that point (or agreed its hard to tell which)
3 - mookie and newsboy simply pointed out what they felt was the advantage of Xscale processors.
I saw nothing in any of these posts that was really an attack on you or unreasonable on anyone else's part so my question is, what exactly got you so upset?
1 - BigDaddyJ didn't attack the Palm platform, he simply stated that he thought the Clie was a better deal (which honestly, how could you not).
Honestly, this is how I could not. What good is a WiFi option with such a weak battery? The form is too large, I prefer my clamshells horizontal, the built-in camera is still weak, the CF slot doesn't have proper driver support for CF memory cards, etc. Just because they packed a bunch of hardware together doesn't make it a value to me.
2 - EdH made the point that because Palm is trying to do many of the same things PocketPCs it is fair to compare them on a common scale. You basically didn't respond to that point (or agreed its hard to tell which)
I addressed this point by saying that there are still too many differences to directlly compare them. Anyone who owns and uses both right now would pretty much understand that...
3 - mookie and newsboy simply pointed out what they felt was the advantage of Xscale processors.
People admit that XScale PPCs showed that more megahertz doesn't = more usable power. Doesn't that weaken the argument put forth that one reason Tungsten is worth less is that it has less megahertz, and presumably therefore less usable power? The fact that Xscale processors are more energy efficient is a side issue; however, if one is going to bring that up, did anyone consider that Palm may have chosen this particular processor for its energy efficiency (adds to value from my point of view).
I saw nothing in any of these posts that was really an attack on you or unreasonable on anyone else's part so my question is, what exactly got you so upset?
I am not upset (frustrated yes, upset no) nor to I feel that I have been attacked. I do feel that the Tungsten is getting attacked and that the very simple concept I am trying to introduce (that two things can be different in a difficult to quantify way and both still be valuable) is lost in these circles. The whole article was written to bash the Tungsten, and I will not waste my time any more trying to open people's minds. I don't feel that they or I need to argue specific points when all I am trying to establish is that what makes something worth a certain amount is simply how desirable it is, not how much "stuff" it can pack in. Would I rather have a Tungsten T than an NX-series CLIE? Yes. Therefore, I would pay more for a TT than an NX. There, isn't that simple? I feel like this article and its supporters feel the NX (or Dell, IPAQ, etc) should cost more just because they pack more features or do more stuff, which doesn't make sense to me. Enjoy the Tungsten bashing... I really cannot put any more effort into explaining something so simple.
mookie123
10-31-2002, 03:44 AM
"...something so simple"? This must be involving one of those 'Zen' thing that I never get...
(okay okay..sorry Ed. I can't help myself. I will play nice now.) :lol:
Newsboy
10-31-2002, 09:51 AM
This is all a moot issue for me anyway, as I just purchased a Handheld PC Pro 3.0 (IBM Z50). The Maestro is going to get replaced by a flip-style smartphone in about 3 months anyway (Samsung i600 w/ Sprint PCS). I have waited a long time to combine my PPC with my Motorola.
I am not saying that I don't like Palm OS 5 or the Tungsten, but I think Ed is right. Unfortunately the market and competition dictate price, not necessarily improvements or functionality. At $499, I think the Tungsten is destined for either drastic price cuts or market failure.
With the T, you're getting a hires screen and bluetooth over the m515, and that's currently it. $500 for that isn't a deal IMHO.
You forgot the Innovative Sliding Graffiti (tm). The bulk of the price goes to this fine and ground-breaking feature. :wink:
Comparing RAM, processor speed, etc between a Palm and a PPC is pointless when you consider how different the two really are. We pay for the whole system, and not all good things are quantifiable specs. When you read a review of a digital camera, what is more important, the # of megapixels, or the way the photos look in the end?
"Good-looking-ness" of pictures is a function of "Megapixels", along with a number of other parameters, like "Saturation" and "Contrast". I can't see how you can ask whether or not "Megapixels" is more important than "Having A Good Picture".
In the same vein, "Functionality" is a function of a number of quantifiable technical parameters, like "RAM", "Display Resolution", "Multitasking" and "Having A Filesystem". I can't see how a device is more "Functional" when it has less "Features".
Let's cite a specific example. Suppose a user wants his device to not only "Organize His Life", but to "Store Photos" as well. A unit with more "Megabytes" will be able to store more pictures. A unit which has more "Megahertz" will be able to handle complex image compression such as JPEG, and will therefore be able to store more photos, because of the more efficient image compression. A unit which has a "Real Filesystem" will enable the user to classify the photos more easily. A unit which has more "Resolution", "Color Depth" and "Screen Size" will easily lend to better image viewing.
In this example above, we have seen how more "Features" translates to more "Funtionality". Or, in other words, "FEATURES = FUNCTION". :wink:
By the way, I don't consider Palm and Pocket PC to be "Apples And Oranges". They may have different operating systems, but both are currently advertised to users as being able to do the same things, namely:
* Organizing Your Life
* Office Suite Capabilities
* Digital Photo and Video
* Digital Audio
* Games
That being said, I think they should be put head-to-head on the same arena.
How many RAM do you have left after you install all your basic software? is there even room for any program that require 2MB to run, let alone your favorite ebook and personal files. And that's only memory aspect alone.
Let me expound and clarify this point, if I may. Palm handhelds do not need program memory since Palm programs are "XIP", or executed in place. So theoretically, you could fill up your Palm PDA to the brim and everything will operate just the same.
However, some programs require additional memory for swap/temp files. A good example is WordSmith when it handles some eBooks. The book is first uncompressed into a temp file before it is read. Thus it is wise to leave a megabyte or two for the Palm to work on these types of files.
In any case, Palm PDA's tend to be the entry point for most PDA users, perhaps because of the name and marketing muscle. But as you go along and grow as a mobile device user, you'd tend to thirst for something more, and start looking at what the high-end has to offer. In my opinion, neither the TT nor the NX will be able to satisfy that thirst, despite the keyboard, camera, and (ahem) sliding Graffiti.
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