Prices Drop on Giant LCDs

[Jason Dunn]

<a href="http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,106260,tk,dn102302X,00.asp">http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,106260,tk,dn102302X,00.asp</a><br /><br />I love my <a href="http://pocketpcthoughts.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=541754/search=Samsung%252017%2522%2520LCD/ut=4493b2c3626a81b0">twin 17" LCD monitors</a>, and although there are certain things I miss about CRT (namely the crispness at all resolutions), I won't be going back - LCD is the future (well, perhaps OLED). LCDs have always been more expensive than CRT, and they will continue to be for the next few years, but these price drops come as welcome news to those who have been waiting to make the purchase. <a href="http://pocketpcthoughts.pricegrabber.com/search_gen.php/form_keyword=LCD%2520monitors/form_page_id=37/topcat_id=1/ut=4493b2c3626a81b0">Watch this link going into the holiday season!</a><br /><br />"In the volatile world of LCD prices, the upcoming holiday season has a special gift in store: a great buy on that large-size LCD you've been drooling over. Oversupply coupled with a sharp drop in demand is forcing display vendors into yet another price war that is dramatically driving down the cost of 17-, 18-, and 19-inch monitors, says an analyst.<br /><br />The LCD industry is no stranger to precipitous price drops, but the most significant decreases have occurred on 15-inch displays. Now that those prices have stabilized, the prices of larger units are dropping fast, says Rhoda Alexander, director of monitor research at ISuppli/Stanford Resources. This holiday season, you can expect to find 17-inch LCDs selling for an average price of about $560, with some brands dipping into the vicinity of $400, Alexander says. That's down from an average price of about $750 in the fourth quarter of last year, and $1150 at the beginning of 2001."

[sundown]

Funny, and I can't remember where I heard this so I'm sorry I can't quote a source, but I heard early this year that LCD prices would be going through the roof again due to a rise in the price of one of the components that go into making the screens and that people aren't really that interested in LCD screens anyway. The first one may have been from my stock broker :D and I'm not sure about the second. Guess they're both wrong (yippie!).

Of course I also heard late last year that blank cdr prices were going to double or something due to the scarcity of something that goes into making them or something. So I bought a bunch of blank cds for much more than I can get them now. Sucker! :x

[Janak Parekh]

Re crispness: at least most modern LCD's do antialiasing at nonoptimal resolutions so it isn't jag-hell.

Besides, once you use XP with ClearType (or similar Mac OS X setup, I'd presume) on an LCD, you can't ever go back :D

I love my monitor: the Viewsonic VP201m (http://www.viewsonic.com/products/lcd_vp201mb.htm). Once of the few 1600-pixel-wide monitors that's not Apple (and as such is cheaper...)

BTW, my next LCD, when the price goes down to an affordable one, is http://www.viewsonic.com/products/lcd_vp2290b.htm - it's a 200 dpi LCD developed initially by IBM. I've seen it in real life (at PC Expo) - you cannot believe how amazing this monitor is. Expect a complete revolution in display technology once the price on this baby drops (it is somewhere around $6,000 now...)

--bdj

[Jonathon Watkins]

BTW, my next LCD, when the price goes down to an affordable one, is http://www.viewsonic.com/products/lcd_vp2290b.htm - it's a 200 dpi LCD developed initially by IBM.

I've heard a lot about this monitor - the only thing is that you need to read graphics with a magnifiend glass :wink: - and it will be wierd to have 24 point fonts just to see anything! :D

Here is a links to an article about the coming price drops of LCD monitos.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=5850
Flat panel price war brewing
Bargains to be had as over-supply brings prices tumbling
By Paul Hales: Monday 21 October 2002, 13:00

I'l stick to my 20 and 19 inch CRTs for the moment - I don't need to upgrade just yet as I have a nice setup with them both.

[Sven Johannsen]

Believe it or not I recently went from twin 19" CRTs to twin 15" LCDs. Yea they are smaller, but it hasn't bothered me and I couldn't swallow the price of bigger flat screens of any quality. My biggest thrill is I got my desk back.

[Janak Parekh]

I've heard a lot about this monitor - the only thing is that you need to read graphics with a magnifiend glass :wink: - and it will be wierd to have 24 point fonts just to see anything! :D
But think about that - anything you will view on that monitor will look like printed material. Hopefully UI's will have caught up to those kinds of resolutions in 2-3 years :D

--bdj

[st63z]

Hopefully UI's will have caught up to those kinds of resolutions in 2-3 years :D

That's the barrier all right...

Still cruising along with my four 21-incher tubes at home, waiting for the revolution on the sidelines :)

[klinux]

Still cruising along with my four 21-incher tubes at home, waiting for the revolution on the sidelines :)

Same here! The 21" is a great investment for me - has served me well last year and I imagine will do so for at least a couple more years before making the move to a widescreen LCD!

[Jimmy Dodd]

I have a CRT for my desktop but my notebook (of course) is an LCD. The biggest problem I have with the LCD is that the only game I have tried playing uses a full screen and is displayed as a very small window in the center of the screen. Windows XP (or more likely, the video card) complains that I am using a non-optimized veiwing size. Setting the screen resolution to anything but the standard resolution results in a really messed up screen, usually requiring a reboot.

Is this normal for LCDs or is this just a bad implementation? The software is a few years old, but the notebook is a less than year old Dell Latitude.

[MonolithicDawgX]

I recently visited one of the monitor companies (NDA) and saw some amazing things in the pipeline. At least two will be displayed at Comdex.

With the ever-increasing number of mega-pixel cameras, the displays are coming to where you will not be able to tell the difference from a photo or your monitor. What surprised me was when I asked at what level of megapixels can the human eye no longer descern a difference, this company could not answer the question.

Anyway, their plasma display was for CAD and graphic work, and was simply amazing. Of course, I can't afford one, so I guess I will just go back and visit!

[mscdex]

if you think LCDs are a good investment, just wait until the OLEDs come out :D Two words that sum up OLEDs: AWESOME technology.
OLEDs are self-lit, come from natural "ingrediants", use a lot LESS battery power, and can be used in any form: pdas, desktop monitors, heck.... you could even wrap one of those OLEDs around a pen and use it as a display. Neat huh? :wink:

[spaceman]

Re crispness: at least most modern LCD's do antialiasing at nonoptimal resolutions so it isn't jag-hell.


I love my monitor: the Viewsonic VP201m (http://www.viewsonic.com/products/lcd_vp201mb.htm). Once of the few 1600-pixel-wide monitors that's not Apple (and as such is cheaper...)

--bdj

BigDaddyJ, what video card do you recommend for the vp201mb? Are you using analog or DVI?

[ThomasC22]

My problem has always been that every time I go out to buy a LCD Monitor, I usually see I could get 2 CRT monitors for the price and end up doing just that (dual monitor really is the way to go).

I mean, as great as a 17" LCD for $500 is, when faced with two 21" CRT's for $700 it tends to pale in comparison for me.

The only place I can see the need for an LCD right now is for those with a serious space consideration. I do have one 15" LCD monitor hooked up to an EZGo (http://www.atoz-ezgo.com.tw/e3032sb.htm) on the bar between my living room and kitchen. The only reason being that the bar isn't big enough for a CRT.

[heov]

I'm curious as to what's the life span for CRTs and LCDs...
I have a 19inch CRT @ home and every once in a while, it seems as if a resistor or something burnt and the screen gets larger, but gradually comes back to its place (kinda like turning on your monitor, and no, it wasn't degaussing). I've had it for about 5 years now, on for about a total of 4 hours a day (not straight 4 hours though...)

And I want to buy and LCD, but I was wondering if they will last for a long time...

Anyway, aren't OLEDs LCDs too? I thought it was just a varient, like TFT, STN, etc... oleds use liquid crystals, right?

[Janak Parekh]

BigDaddyJ, what video card do you recommend for the vp201mb? Are you using analog or DVI?
You really, really, really should use DVI - while the monitor supports analog, at those resolutions you get shadowing (I'm hypersensitive to that...)

I have a GeForce4 Ti4400 driving the card - I believe mine is VisionTek (great card, but company is going bye-bye) - and it's rock-solid. Gaming is also fantastic - I can run Q3A at 1600x1200, 32-bit, and it's stunning. (UT2003, unfortunately, pushes the card at 1600x1200 - it's stunning, but I don't get 40 fps :()

Any modern 3D card with DVI should work well. Note that older cards had DVI ports that only supported up to 1280x1024 (many GeForce1's & 2's).

--bdj

[Janak Parekh]

My problem has always been that every time I go out to buy a LCD Monitor, I usually see I could get 2 CRT monitors for the price and end up doing just that (dual monitor really is the way to go).
True, CRT's are cheap. However:

1. Try using an LCD for a month, and then going back. Unless you're using a Trinitron CRT or a really, really good invar mask CRT (i.e., maybe .22 pitch or somesuch), you'll find it blurry. And the fact that the LCD has such superb contrast is still incomparable.

2. One 1600x1200 LCD, while an expensive investment, saves so much desk space over two CRT's - I used to have two 21" CRT's on my desk - never again.

3. ClearType, ClearType, ClearType. When I first tried it I wasn't comfortable. But there's no going back, now. (I just wish my iPaq had passable ClearType - then all of my Windows devices would be using it... if you've seen the PPC Phone Edition or a Jornada, you'd understand what ClearType does).

Yes, it's expensive, and it's not for everyone yet, but I'm super-happy with the the chunk of change I plunked down for my LCD. Of course, YMMV.

--bdj

[Janak Parekh]

And I want to buy and LCD, but I was wondering if they will last for a long time...
So, LCD's do last a long time. My old notebook (a Sony PCG-505TX), which my sister inherited, is still going strong after 6+ years of heavy use (had to send it back once because the mainboard fried, but it's still the same LCD).

However, you will develop a few live or dead pixels on an LCD given time. I almost always have 2-3. My old 505TX probably has about 8 now, although I haven't counted recently... but yes, I do believe they last longer than the electron gun CRT's, which tend to lose focus after a few years.

--bdj

[Janak Parekh]

(on scaling...)
Is this normal for LCDs or is this just a bad implementation? The software is a few years old, but the notebook is a less than year old Dell Latitude.
This is very much a notebook/driver implementation. Most LCD's default to scaling, as does my desktop and my laptop LCD's. You may (should, if it's that recent) be able to change that setting either in the BIOS or the Advanced Display Properties pages.

--bdj

(Sorry for the flood of responses, guys, I can't resist ;))

[Janak Parekh]

With the ever-increasing number of mega-pixel cameras, the displays are coming to where you will not be able to tell the difference from a photo or your monitor. What surprised me was when I asked at what level of megapixels can the human eye no longer descern a difference, this company could not answer the question.
I wonder if it differs from human-to-human.

What I have heard, though, is that when digital cameras reach 16 or 17 megapixels, the resulting images will be indistinguishable from 35mm film. We're getting close, too...

--bdj

[CoffeeKid]

Prices haven't been stopping me from getting a desktop LCD....

Response time has. I am a graphics professional by trade, and I do a lot of animation and video work as well. The biggest drawback for me with LCDs is the response time and the pixelization from fast moving objects. I always ask to see a high paced game running on an LCD in a store, and it leaves me less than impressed.

Supposedly, Hitachi is coming out with a new 17" monitor, the CML174 next month that cuts in half the response time of the screen, and they claim it out performs the best LCDs out there today, namely the Apple studio displays. (for graphics professionals).

If it is what they say it is, at $700USD MSRP, I think I'll buy one. or two.

Mark

[klinux]

BigDaddyJ: You are such a post whore! :lol:

[klinux]

My next monitor:
http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/p/092602futureoffice.jpg

Source: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-959688.html

[ECOslin]

I like the concept of the Samsung Syncmaster 150MP and 170MP. These models have television tuners built in. Planned retirement, when it gets old for a computer monitor it can be the bedside tv.

I'd look for a LCD design that will take an NTSC, or whatevers next, type signal.

Two years ago I bought a no-name 15" LCD panel, and on the second day of ownership it went white with backlighting on full. I couldn't reset it, I swapped the cable between my primary(Diogenese), secondary(Deimos) and notebook(Icarus) computer with no change. Unplugged for 8 hours and tried it again and returned it to the store. Anyone have a clue?

Bought an Acer V771, which I still use now. I will buy an LCD 17", when I spend another 6 months or so drooling over the specs. If this monitor goes bad, immediately I would pickup up a cheap 17" CRT from one of the many surplus dealers, unless they can seduce me with a used LCD in good shape. And it has to work between two computers using a Cybex Switchview, some monitors don't like card and resolution changes.

My z50 handheld CE device has a VGA output, I've used it before to test monitors. I just thought of taking it to a store and possibly testing, some of the LCD panels there before buying, with it. Have you seen how poor the VGA signal is on some of the vendor displays, how much extra garbage/noise from all the cables, power supplies and splitters.

Edward

[bdeli]

What I have heard, though, is that when digital cameras reach 16 or 17 megapixels, the resulting images will be indistinguishable from 35mm film. We're getting close, too...
--bdj

Kodak came out with a 13.7 megapixel camera last month taking pictures at a 48-bit resolution and 4536 x 3024.

[CoffeeKid]

Two years ago I bought a no-name 15" LCD panel, and on the second day of ownership it went white with backlighting on full. I couldn't reset it, I swapped the cable between my primary(Diogenese), secondary(Deimos) and notebook(Icarus) computer with no change. Unplugged for 8 hours and tried it again and returned it to the store. Anyone have a clue?

Innerssin'. I have an older, yet still usable and high end (for it's day) IBM currently in on warranty service (IBM Thinkpad Business models have a kick butt 3 year quick-change warranty) for exactly the same problem - for about six months now, when I'd boot it up (rare with XP), or come back from standby (much more frequently), the display would be all white.

At first, it happened infrequently. Now it's happening all the time, and I finally got fed up. I actually thought I was past warranty on it (it's a Thinkpad 570E ultralight), but nope, good till next May, so I am getting service on it as I type (on an iBook). The tech didn't know what the issue was either, but suspected a faulty connection cable inside. They said they'd replace the whole top portion of the machine (LCD, casing, etc) anyway because of other minor issues (small crack in the outer casing, hinge on the display going, display is very dim as compared to new).

Mark

[Jonathon Watkins]

Still cruising along with my four 21-incher tubes at home, waiting for the revolution on the sidelines :)

8O That's mighty impressive - what do you do with 4x21-inchers? That must be a serious wrap-around system - or do you stack them?

[ECOslin]

I built this desk, that I am using now from pine boards and two discounted kitchen cabinet bases. When or if I get a permanent LCD panel I'll probably redesign it to make best use of the 'space saving' features.

I'd rather forego the base of the LCD monitor and just 'hang' it on a backing board from a higher shelf. The CRT monitor I've got now has a depth of around 14" and width of 15", it sucks up that much space.

Like usual, all space, above, besides and below the shelf and desktop has something velcroed, stapled, screwed, pinned, glued, nailed or bungied. I'd probably get the extremely flat speakers to go aside the monitor if it doesn't have them already. I'd likely hang the phone in wallmount mode next to the monitor as well.

Edward

[Janak Parekh]

BigDaddyJ: You are such a post whore! :lol:
Sorry :D I just found it easier to reply to each post as I encountered them. I really should quote individual posts. (OTOH, you just posted after yourself right there ;)) Well, here we go this time...

Response time has. I am a graphics professional by trade, and I do a lot of animation and video work as well. The biggest drawback for me with LCDs is the response time and the pixelization from fast moving objects. I always ask to see a high paced game running on an LCD in a store, and it leaves me less than impressed.
Interesting. I can say that my gaming performance has not suffered by switching to modern LCD's, and I haven't noticed the refresh lag too badly. My Viewsonic (and an SGI I use at work) are fine for the average first-person shooter. Admittedly, since each subsequent frame rarely has a drastic change from the previous one, it's not comparable to a video. LCD's are steadily improving though, as you noticed. I have a friend who has a 200ms-refresh time LCD... that's one scary LCD to play on. I also remember trying to play Doom on my ancient 486SX NEC passive-matrix laptop... that was even scarier.

Kodak came out with a 13.7 megapixel camera last month taking pictures at a 48-bit resolution and 4536 x 3024.
Yup, I know. The price point makes it less attractive, but that's a temporary thing.

--bdj

[st63z]

Still cruising along with my four 21-incher tubes at home, waiting for the revolution on the sidelines :)

8O That's mighty impressive - what do you do with 4x21-inchers? That must be a serious wrap-around system - or do you stack them?

Hehe, not all on the same desk (like I'm gonna stress-test a desk with a 2x2 matrix of 21" tubes 8O ). I don't even use a dual-CRT setup yet since not enough monitors to go around with all the PCs around the house (considering I'd given away my old 21" CRT to a friend).

P.S. Totally OT, but I'd bought that Apex 20" TV for $99 from CompUSA awhile back. Thought I was gonna use it for bedroom use, but now it just doesn't seem right that my TV's gonna be smaller than my bedroom PC monitor...

[ThomasC22]

P.S. Totally OT, but I'd bought that Apex 20" TV for $99 from CompUSA awhile back. Thought I was gonna use it for bedroom use, but now it just doesn't seem right that my TV's gonna be smaller than my bedroom PC monitor...

OK, about as off-topic as you can get but I do have to say, if you want a really good, really cheap TV the Apex 20" is the way to go. I use it in my Bedroom and could not be happier.

Sorry, but it is such a good deal I felt it needed to be said. :)

[ECOslin]

I just keep imagining trying to chat or browse the internet and having to paperweight the screen to keep it from folding back up.

How would you reinforce the edges of such.

I think of the general design like those roll up movie screens that you may have seen in school, vertically they are fine, horizontally is a mess.

Edward

This Ars Technica article
Roll up displays in 2005?
Posted 10/27/2002 - 11:20PM, by Caesar
Cambridge Display Technology group has acquired its rival Opsys, fusing the two companies together in the hopes that flexible, rollable TV and computing displays might see the light of day by 2005. As we've reported before, Organic LEDs will be the Next Big Thing™ in flat panel displays, and Kodak, IBM, and CDT are racing furiously to get a grasp on the emerging market. CDT owns a patent relating to one of the major OLED production technologies, but this acquisition moves the target date up, so it seems. Even almost two months ago their CEO was touting the likelihood of this technology being available in 2007, but hey, let's lop two years off of that estimate.

Opsys, spun out of Oxford and St Andrews Universities in 1997, uses new polymers, called dendrimers, which are brighter and more energy efficient than CDT's light-emitting polymers (LEPs). The two companies hope to blend their technologies to improve the lifetime of the dendrimers.

While the energy efficiency and wide viewing-angles of OLED technology is exciting to me, what really gets me going is the idea of a roll-up display. Since an OLED-based displayed needs no backlight and can be printed on flexible plastic, it's a real possibility. What can I say, Semi and I want our Globals! Imagine a visual communicator with a retractable screen that fits inside something the size of chapstick. Or how about a pull-out display built into your dashboard that can display anything from maps, to TV, to websites?
(this article copied and pasted from: http://arstechnica.com/index.html?vo=8

[st63z]

P.S. Totally OT, but I'd bought that Apex 20" TV for $99 from CompUSA awhile back. Thought I was gonna use it for bedroom use, but now it just doesn't seem right that my TV's gonna be smaller than my bedroom PC monitor...

OK, about as off-topic as you can get but I do have to say, if you want a really good, really cheap TV the Apex 20" is the way to go. I use it in my Bedroom and could not be happier.

Sorry, but it is such a good deal I felt it needed to be said. :)

Yeah the $99 is such a low price, it's almost as if it's disposable if you want to junk it later :) But of course right after I bought it I was already thinking I should've bought something a bit better (you know how the mindset goes). So recently I saw the 27" Apex TV on one of the store circulars (I think Circuit City or BB or CompUSA) for $199... argh

Anyways, I've already got the 21" CRT computer in that same room hooked up to Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 speakers (bought from Jason) along with Sennheiser RS-65 wireless headphones (bought for only $71!). Soon as I stuff a TV tuner card in that PC, the 20" TV becomes.. kinda redundant I guess...

Back more on topic, 3 of my CRTs I'd bought cheap direct from Micron as they were clearing inventory (factory new). These run comfortably at 1600x1200@85Hz (limited by my eyes), definitely a good value. My one advice, never buy used CRTs.. my friends had bought a couple, one was ridiculously dim and so obviously close to end-of-life...