Sony steps up to the plate with a WiFi Palm OS 5 device [Archive]

Ed Hansberry

09-26-2002, 11:00 PM

<a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/27307.html">http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/27307.html</a> Things are a bit slow on the Pocket PC hardware front for now, but the competition is sure busy. We showed you <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3646">last week Palm's offerings due in the next few weeks</a>. Sony is now readying their first OS 5 device. Very high end. It looks virtually identical to the NR70/NR70V. In fact, the name is only slightly changed - NX70V. Here are the stats: <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020926-sony2.jpg" /> • Launches in November for $599 • Proprietary Sony wireless card slot for proprietary Sony 802.11b card. Did I mention this was all proprietary? Didn't Sony learn from Handspring's mistake? • 200MHz ARM chip, don't know whose it is • 16MB of RAM • 310K pixel camera • 320X480 TFT screen • MP3 Player • Video support • 3" X 5" and 8oz • New Sony UI - see image <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020926-sony1.jpg" /> This is the UI - standard 160X160 Palm, new 320X480 Sony with what appears to be virtual Graffiti, and the Sony Launcher. Doesn't that look like a Start Menu? I don't know if it comes from the top, bottom, side or comes in with a Star Trek transporter effect. Doesn't matter. Egads! All that scrolling. All the complexity. Will people be buying this thing and just staring at the screen in horror unable to figure out how to stop the clock from blinking? <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif" /> Seriously, I think it looks good, but what do I know? I think the Pocket PC is intuitive. So, what do you think? Will this "inject some life into a platform that is severely threatened by the Pocket PC juggernaut?" Thanks to Foo Fighter for the pics.

entropy1980

09-26-2002, 11:16 PM

Rumor has it the "Wireless Slot" is actually compact flash, it's somehow modified (from software) to only be compatible with sony's WiFi.... wonder how long before someone hacks it to bits? Overall looks like sony may be slowing it design down.... this is the first time in awhile their high end design has radically changed....

klinux

09-26-2002, 11:19 PM

I have $ invested in quite a few CF form preipherals but I do not think proprietary is necessarily bad. As long as it offers good performance for its price - I welcome anything that makes the user experience positive. Let the consumers decide, I always say.

The "Look at all that complexity" argument does not work well here. Afterall, isn't that what Palm users said of WinCE and yet we think PPC is intuitive?

My opinion is that anything (Sony is the only viable and innovative Palm OS products out there!) that challenges PPC is ultimately good for the PPC industry and us!

michael

09-26-2002, 11:19 PM

Looks very nice. The question is though will any of the current PocketPC OEMs produce anything to compete? The only real possibility is Toshiba I think. The first PocketPC OEM to come out with a device with a higher resolution is going to capture a big share of the market IMO.

jdhill

09-26-2002, 11:26 PM

Not bad !!!

This appears at first glance to be very nice device. Good specs. Good design (Sony usually does good design). Nice screen.

The only question I have is about the proprietary 802.11b slot. I know that Sony really, really likes their own proprietary memory stick for expansion, but it would have made a lot more sense to use a standard CF slot so that standard CF 802.11b cards from a variety of manufacturers could be used.

DaleReeck

09-26-2002, 11:32 PM

I'm not sure PocketPC makers have to compete. The specs of the new Sony are pretty much what you would get on a PPC except for the built in camera/keyboard. But that's a design issue, not an OS one.

It seems to me that Palm and it's OEMs can't keep saying how much better they are than PPC because they are simpler and easier to use, then turn around and try to produce devices that are basically PocketPC's but with just a different flavor OS. I mean, lets face it. Maybe not as much as the Palm-made devices, but certainly the Sony device is basically an attempt at a PocketPC clone.

Charles Pickrell

09-26-2002, 11:35 PM

...and the Sony Launcher. Doesn't that look like a Start Menu? I don't know if it comes from the top, bottom, side or comes in with a Star Trek transporter effect. Doesn't matter. Egads! All that scrolling. All the complexity.

Ed if you use any of the newer sony laptops you will notice that they feature a launcher app that works with a scroll wheel built onto the front of the laptop. The interface is really quite intuitive. I'm sure they are just continuing the same launcher theme but now it runs off of the jog wheel on the side of the Clie.

Although I'm a huge Pocket PC nut, I really do envy the flexibility Sony has been given by Palm when it comes to Clie hardware design. I'm drooling over the 320x480 screen resolution!

scrinch

09-26-2002, 11:38 PM

Small Town Man

09-26-2002, 11:55 PM

You can get a PDF with more details here:

http://www.bargainpda.com/assets/255.pdf

feo

09-26-2002, 11:57 PM

WoW!!!
That is one-proprietary-cool-looking unit!!!
Can't wait to see what our side of the force comes up with.

grogma

09-27-2002, 12:01 AM

Not only are the pictures real but everyone else who has posted them today has been contacted by the Sony legal dept within a matter of hours and told to remove them. Rooks rike a reak!
Looks like things are getting convergent here. With Palm OS5 we'll enter an odd phase where every handheld (PPC, Palm, Zaurus) is more or less hardware equivalent. I'm trying to decide if this is a good thing. Probably won't make life any easier for developers since the platforms are all radically different to write software for.

heov

09-27-2002, 12:03 AM

Yes, I am confident that the slot is Compact Flash, however, it doesn't except memory cards. It seems in the OS, sony only included drivers for their cards only, and I would assume sony made sure others couldn't make drivers for it. Sony could just make a bluetooth card to work with it as well. It is probably very difficult to hack it to accept all cards. Also, as someone pointed out, it seems that sony ported their cool launcher to Palm OS- and no, it's not a PPC rip off, it's sony 'icon' just like the hold switch, jog dial, and mem slot.

What makes this better than Pocket PCs?

-built in camera
-best screen resolution and and same technology used in the 3900 ipaqs
-dual slots, though limited
-built in keyboard

And guess what, it only costs 600 bucks, not 750 as some (hp/cpq) people think it's worth...

This is one of the best handhelds ever made. Also, I remember hearing this is using the StrongARM chip, same one in the older PPCs...

Ed Hansberry

09-27-2002, 12:08 AM

Marcel_Proust

09-27-2002, 12:15 AM

this is one very nice unit.
i love the keyboard and the design etc.
the hi-res mode is very impressive - i hope pocketpc manufacturers learn something from it.
who knows about os 5 - prob it will be good.
i hate the cash cow - ooops i mean propriety part of it.
sony lost on beta, and i hope memory stick ends up on the same bin.
but i love the design and hi-res.

normaldude

09-27-2002, 12:25 AM

And it has a flip cover (the keyboard).

Why can't pocket pcs have flip covers?
:really mad:

profe

09-27-2002, 12:57 AM

I have a Sony camera and a Sony Vaio portable (although most of the time I use a Mac TiBook--there are a few things I have to do with a wintel package), and I especially like the size and shape of the memory stick. My Casio uses the CF cards, but the Sony stick is the right size and shape to fit nicely in my hand and move stuff around. (I use a USB stick reader to get stuff onto the Mac, but the camera and the Vaio have slots, of course.)

The CF card is Okay but larger as you know, and the SD-size cards are just a little too small-feeling in my hands, if you know what I mean. JMHO

Regarding the Sony units, a couple of my son's have used them (the cheaper models) and have enjoyed them--great screens and good performance whem compared to other Palm OS devices, but they seem to have had problems with breakage: they seem to rather fragile, much more than the Palms they've had (and I've dropped my Casio with it's EB Cases Slipper so many times in the last two years I can't count 'em and the edges are all banged up but it has never suffered any sort of internal damage).

Sony makes good stuff. But, they don't make a PPC. Too bad--they could do a bang-up job of putting together s bunch of proprietary stuff. Heh-heh.

Dave Conger

09-27-2002, 12:58 AM

Not only are the pictures real but everyone else who has posted them today has been contacted by the Sony legal dept within a matter of hours and told to remove them....

The origional posters have been asked to remove them, though their are many sites like Thoughts and my own that still have them.

Gremmie

09-27-2002, 12:59 AM

Maybe all they need for compatibility with other CF cards is drivers. I mean, who out there is making CF peripherals for Palm machines? I know Handera uses CF cards but do any of the other Palm OS handhelds have a CF slot? In any event it sure isn't a very large market. I'll bet if we wait there will be more CF cards for the Clie (assuming these photos aren't just a hoax).

I've seen rumors on Palm based sites, mainly the biased PalmInfoCenter site and one rumor has always been a CF periphial slot, but in regards to CF devices for Palm devices, companies like HandEra have asked companies to provide drivers for Palm based devices, a couple of CF 802.11 card makers made PalmOS drivers because HandEra asked. It takes a little time and little cost to provide drivers for a handheld manufacturer like Sony, all you need is demand and supply will come to meet it.

Dave Conger

09-27-2002, 01:00 AM

Haha, I just realized that once again the Sony release is before the Palm. Sony always manages to get their announcment out first and the probably will ship first too and the Palm Tungsten won't even be announced until the end of Oct.

heov

09-27-2002, 01:00 AM

What makes this better than Pocket PCs?

-built in camera
-best screen resolution and and same technology used in the 3900 ipaqs
-dual slots, though limited
-built in keyboard

And guess what, it only costs 600 bucks, not 750 as some (hp/cpq) people think it's worth...

This is one of the best handhelds ever made. Also, I remember hearing this is using the StrongARM chip, same one in the older PPCs...

It is also
• larger
• heavier
• uses a 200MHz ARM, not Strongarm - probaly same speed, but it isn't the SA. Actually, probably a ARM v5 processor, so better on power - maybe.
• no bluetooth
• no SD
• no file system for storage cards
• 16MB of memory!?!

Larger - This handheld is High end, not for entry level consumers. Most people know when you have a Magnesium alloy case, with built in keyboard, built in CF (still rumor), built in MS, and a KEYBOARD in a flip top design, what do you expect? I will bet money that within 4 months of this release, sony will release a T style of the same thing, w/o the keyboard and CF slot, and probably w/o the camera, while maintain the current size! Then it's in line with the Zayo and Tosh e310.

Heavier - add a CF slot (even silver slider) and a keyboard to the iPaq, then see which one's heavier... oh, and a camera..., oh yeah, I forgot the casing needs to be metal instead a plastic... But then again, Toshiba managed to make theirs pretty small, but still no keyboard.

Speed - It's probably the Motorolo MX1 thing, but it could also be the StrongARM as it has been rumored for the last month; Can you prove that it's not a SA, besides they quoted 200 instead of 206? Anyway, remember, OS 4 was fast on 33 MHz, and OS 5 should be able to run very FAST on a 200 mhz arm, though it will lack in Video playback.

Bluetooth - Don't you kinda think WiFi makes up for that? They would probably lower the price if they bundled it with a Sony Bluetooth card... Is bluetooth a con for the e740?

SD - don't you think MS makes up for that too? Yeah, so it may be proprietory, but prices are still going down a bit. Plus it's desinged soly for memory now that they have an extra CF slot for IO, so it's biggie.

Memory - PPC NEEDS more memory, but I guess Sony could have squeezed in AT LEAST 32 MB in...

File System - that's more of a OS issue than sony's hardware, and the OS is designed differently that it really doesn't need a file system, but that could be useful.

Also, you said standard 160x160 interface- wrong. Palm is now standard on 320x320 in os 5, it's part of the API... They call it double density...

You see, PPCs have not gained that much recognition yet, and now that Sony and Palm are comeing out with all this stuff, no one will look at PPC when they still can buy just as good palms... Plus, PPcs need a higher resolution- VGA, don't just match half VGA like the clie's, we need to be the best!

Gremmie

09-27-2002, 01:12 AM

I would agree you must sacrafice when you do have multiple features like keyboard, camera, and whatnot. One big debate and I apologize for fusing this is that 16MB maybe proportionally larger to PPC's 64MB. -its not my debate--

kaiden.1

09-27-2002, 01:31 AM

WOW! Good job sony! But then they always do a good job. I think that one thing needs to be said, remember that most palm programs take up losts of less space than PPC/Windows ones, so the 16 meg of memory with an expansion slot even if it is the memory stick is going to go a long way on a Palm, unlike the PPC.

I said earlier that sonly likes the word "Propietary" and they use it all the time, perhaps the only company that does and still manages to make it work most of the time.

This will be a big dent in the PPC looking better than palm on the shelves. No longer will people be looking at "OLD ugly monochrome Palm, next to a Color PPC. This will not be good for PPC sales, but Sony will more than likely do just fine!

Gremmie

09-27-2002, 01:37 AM

This will be a big dent in the PPC looking better than palm on the shelves. No longer will people be looking at "OLD ugly monochrome Palm, next to a Color PPC. This will not be good for PPC sales, but Sony will more than likely do just fine!

well, remember one thing Palm users always liked was Palm was significantly cheaper...now it could be because they were traditionally cheaper and it was an arguement they never really believed in and they wanted to discredit the PPC's, however I must admit, a lot of them may not like the idea of spending a lot on a PDA and wouldn't be prepared to spend that much, the last Sony never really took off, partly because of price and partly because of the MS bug.

Jonathon Watkins

09-27-2002, 01:38 AM

This will be a big dent in the PPC looking better than palm on the shelves. No longer will people be looking at "OLD ugly monochrome Palm, next to a Colour PPC. This will not be good for PPC sales, but Sony will more than likely do just fine!

Well, MS works better when they see the whites of their competitors eyes in the rear view mirror. Lets hope this spurs them on to greater heights - not to mention the manufacturers! Give us a trasflexive VGA screen!

sweetpete

09-27-2002, 01:54 AM

Speed - It's probably the Motorolo MX1 thing, but it could also be the StrongARM as it has been rumored for the last month; Can you prove that it's not a SA, besides they quoted 200 instead of 206? Anyway, remember, OS 4 was fast on 33 MHz, and OS 5 should be able to run very FAST on a 200 mhz arm, though it will lack in Video playback.

Even though OS5 is supposed to help with this, the Palm OS has never been able to multi-thread properly. This is a limitation that is often overlooked.

Bluetooth - Don't you kinda think WiFi makes up for that? They would probably lower the price if they bundled it with a Sony Bluetooth card... Is bluetooth a con for the e740?

Nope ... 2 different, but complimentary technologies. The wireless isn't even built-in on this unit whereas it is with the e740. I use both technologies on my PPC quite regularly. One to sync with my laptop and connect to my phone for data and the other to connect to my WLAN's at home and the office.

SD - don't you think MS makes up for that too? Yeah, so it may be proprietory, but prices are still going down a bit. Plus it's desinged soly for memory now that they have an extra CF slot for IO, so it's biggie.

Unless you want to keep buying proprietary Sony IO cards. I'll stick to a standard SDIO which I can use in multiple devices and obtain from multiple vendours.

Memory - PPC NEEDS more memory, but I guess Sony could have squeezed in AT LEAST 32 MB in...

For developers, Palm has always lacked on the memory side. Don't quote me, but I recall a dev at my old company saying something like it only had 16k for the heap (or some other ridiculously small value) which made it very difficult to work with things like email attachments retrieved wirelessly. Plus, without MS, you run out of app and storage space in a flash these days. I had to constantly battle with my Vx to keep memory free.

spursdude

09-27-2002, 01:57 AM

Larger - This handheld is High end, not for entry level consumers. Most people know when you have a Magnesium alloy case, with built in keyboard, built in CF (still rumor), built in MS, and a KEYBOARD in a flip top design, what do you expect? I will bet money that within 4 months of this release, sony will release a T style of the same thing, w/o the keyboard and CF slot, and probably w/o the camera, while maintain the current size! Then it's in line with the Zayo and Tosh e310.

Heavier - add a CF slot (even silver slider) and a keyboard to the iPaq, then see which one's heavier... oh, and a camera..., oh yeah, I forgot the casing needs to be metal instead a plastic... But then again, Toshiba managed to make theirs pretty small, but still no keyboard.

Speed - It's probably the Motorolo MX1 thing, but it could also be the StrongARM as it has been rumored for the last month; Can you prove that it's not a SA, besides they quoted 200 instead of 206? Anyway, remember, OS 4 was fast on 33 MHz, and OS 5 should be able to run very FAST on a 200 mhz arm, though it will lack in Video playback.

Bluetooth - Don't you kinda think WiFi makes up for that? They would probably lower the price if they bundled it with a Sony Bluetooth card... Is bluetooth a con for the e740?

SD - don't you think MS makes up for that too? Yeah, so it may be proprietory, but prices are still going down a bit. Plus it's desinged soly for memory now that they have an extra CF slot for IO, so it's biggie.

Memory - PPC NEEDS more memory, but I guess Sony could have squeezed in AT LEAST 32 MB in...

File System - that's more of a OS issue than sony's hardware, and the OS is designed differently that it really doesn't need a file system, but that could be useful.

Also, you said standard 160x160 interface- wrong. Palm is now standard on 320x320 in os 5, it's part of the API... They call it double density...

You see, PPCs have not gained that much recognition yet, and now that Sony and Palm are comeing out with all this stuff, no one will look at PPC when they still can buy just as good palms... Plus, PPcs need a higher resolution- VGA, don't just match half VGA like the clie's, we need to be the best!

processors - i'm hoping that x-scale will soon be as fast as possible, with a few optimizations. if that rumored ipaq comes out with an optimized 800mhz processor, palm will be flat out beat. but just a rumor.

although i don't have a need for bluetooth, i can certainly see how wifi is not a replacement for bluetooth for many (if not most) people. try connecting to the internet via cellphone with wifi (you can't).

memory stick is a lot less appealing to me than SD or CF. for one, you can't hold more than 128MB. sure, the price is lowering, but the same goes for CF and SD. also, memory stick isn't as widespread as SD or CF. MS is used pretty much only in sony products (although there's an ipaq expansion sleeve, and a rumored ppc with MS). with my audiovox maestro, i could have 1.5GB of flash memory if i wanted to (and could afford it).

internal memory - it is true that palm applications use less memory and storage space. but, for a multimedia machine, MP3 and WMA files will always be the same size, regardless of operating system. sure, i don't load too many files onto my internal memory, but it sure would be nice.

i definitely agree about high-res screens. but, if the screen size remains the same, but resolution gets higher, we may end up with teeny-tiny font and images difficult to read.

does anybody have any definitive answers on whether or not the sony's slot is CF or just a proprietary handspring-type-thing?

sweetpete

09-27-2002, 02:10 AM

does anybody have any definitive answers on whether or not the sony's slot is CF or just a proprietary handspring-type-thing?

According to the PDF link that was posted earlier it is a CF Type II that is compatible with Sony's WLAN card only. Sony wouldn't open up another memory standard to their devices ... especially one that has 8 times the capacity (in solid state) and many more times with the MicroDrive technology.

heov

09-27-2002, 02:20 AM

Ok, what I meant to say is that not having bluetooth is not a con when you can have WiFi. No one lists the e740 as a con for not having bluetooth, and no one lists no WiFi as a con on the iPaq... Although it's not built in, since the slot can only except IO for now (only WiFi really), just consider it as non-removable. the unit has built in wireless, though changable, and one expansion slot... You never know, with sony's wireless plan, they could just as easy put wifi and bluetooth on the same card within a year...

Also, if sony didn't make MS, then they probably would have used SD. In fact, SD is has a royalty fee- it's not like CF and MMC where it is an open standard... Sony doesn't want to use SD because they want to make money off of MS, if Toshiba had it's own proprietyory card, it would probably use it too. Though, I too dislike MS.

Also, don't forget Palm now uses ARM, so they could use almost and PPC processor, even Xscale (as it is in the "Palm OS Ready Program"), but they look at battery life before speed...

Anyway, here's why I don't like the device...
-no "real" joypad
-I personally don't like the flip top design because it's just too much trouble to pull out and open and turn on...
-the camera sucks, though pretty good for a PDA that's built in...
-speaker on the back...

What Palms have over PPC:
-Better screens (though not larger, in most cases) in terms of resolution.
-More APPS, including better Word Processors...
-still price is cheaper, except when you get a keyboard, higher resolution, dual slots, and a camera (which I personally think it's worth it)
-name recognition
-still own most of market for users to "upgrade" to a newer palm
-Personally, I think Palm's look more elegant...

What PPCs have over Palm:
-more screen real estate (unless palm gets rid of hard grafitti)
-more memory
-faster (in terms of power- video, games, etc.)
-most use Standard expansion slots
-more flexible OS with multi-tasking, etc.
-compliant with more standards such as WiFi, windows file system, etc.

Gremmie

09-27-2002, 02:28 AM

What PPCs have over Palm:
-more screen real estate (unless palm gets rid of hard grafitti)
-more memory
-faster (in terms of power- video, games, etc.)
-most use Standard expansion slots
-more flexible OS with multi-tasking, etc.
-compliant with more standards such as WiFi, windows file system, etc.

Well a couple of these are resolved in the new Palm and Sony model, screen real estate is saved via Virtual Graffiti and Palm is using a pull out Graffiti. But the last two (multi-tasking and WiFi/Bluetooth) have really been changed in the OS 5, multitasking/multithreading is supported and the OS has WiFi and Bluetooth support, just how PPC 2002 supported it. However, these are aspects I really want to test, especially the multi-tasking, but won't be able to until they hit stores.

jpmierau

09-27-2002, 02:43 AM

Every few weeks I use one of my Palms, just to remind myself the functionality I lose in exchange for an increasingly small edge in 'zip'. Even when I play with the NR70 series, my 'hardware wow' quickly fades.

And what's with the placement of that wireless 'slot'? Will this thing still be able to flip around to use in the traditional screen up mode with that thing in the way?

Here's what I thought would let Palm 5 truly kick butt: a FILE SYSTEM. So it's no go, yet again...where's Sony's Pocket PC anyways????

PS: forgive my grumpiness at Palm's inability to spur Microsoft on as much as Sony has.

TBone

09-27-2002, 02:57 AM

I'm not interested until the thing has a real filesystem. That's the main reason I switched to PocketPC and it's the reason I'll stay--it's just way too nice to not have to convert EVERYTHING so that you can use it on the device. I like programming for Palm much more than PocketPC, but from a user side it's no contest--the PocketPC integrates into my laptop in a way that Palm shows no sign of equalling.

splintercell

09-27-2002, 03:47 AM

The Geek.com PDA section has an update on the original article, stating:

Sony requested that we remove the pics that were previously here. Sorry.

Are these those pictures and/or is Sony going to request them pulled also?

BoyWithPockets

09-27-2002, 04:00 AM

Needless to say this device isn't meant for anyone on this site. It will however keep people from switching to the PocketPC camp. People tend to stick with what they know until there's some compelling reason to switch.

Think of it this way. If I was a Palm user for years but I now want MP3 and wireless and all the other goodies, would I dump all my favorate software for a PocketPC or buy the NX70V or one of the other PalmOS5 devices?

Despite that fact that Palm devices are now moving into PocketPC territory, their main purpose is still a glorified date/address book. PocketPcs have a different raison etre.

Gremmie

09-27-2002, 04:20 AM

Hey, since these things can run on ARM and even XScale which will be released early next year; I wonder about the emulation possibilites on PPC's running an emulated PalmOS 5. Or even flashing devices...hrm....the era of multi-booting handhelds could be coming :) j\k (sort of wishing)

Paul P

09-27-2002, 04:40 AM

We shouldn't rush into Sony and PocketPC comparisons. Those days have not arrived yet. But looking from a perspective of other Palm devices, there is just no question that Sony took it a step further. For a Palm user, this is the closest he or she can get to a PocketPC experience. Proprietary or not, this looks like a powerful device. Does it stand up to a PocketPC? Not really.

[/quote]

Timothy Rapson

09-27-2002, 04:53 AM

I have an NR 70V and if you are calling this large, compare it to the leading competition. A sleeved Ipaq WITH a big ol' camera on top filling up the CF slot. This thing is tiny in comparison. OK, you could campare it to the Toshiba E740 without camera and it would be about the same size.

Anyway, the big thing this means for me, is that I will get support for my 320 by 480 screen. FITALY is already in Beta and I expect this decision came when the developers saw this NX model and saw that there were future sales to be had. Score one big happy for me. Now, if I can only get Pocket Artist to do a version for Palm OS 4.1 (which I have on my NR70V) while they are doing a version for this OS 5 NX model. :D

This is also a boon for the 20 million current Palm owners (just kidding, Ed. I know that those 20 million sold don't represent anywhere near that many individual users)....OK, 7-8 million users who were flumoxed over whether to abandon the Palm OS they know and go over to the dark side. With the NX, out there is far less anxiety producing reason to consider doing so. That is a significant plus for this Sony and any Palm OS model. One reason that Palm is selling Palm M100s for as little as $40 (LIST RETAIL) in Japan and will be selling the Zire models really cheap and easy here is for the upgrade sale later.

The Memory stick is also consistently cheaper for memory than SD/MMC (though more expensive than CF and more limited in capacities). They also kept the same connector for syncing, so this model will already have a Sony branded Stowaway keyboard available.

If you really want to handle files rather than let the Palm OS and VFS programs handle them for you there are at least 10 programs that will let you do so. About the only thing they won't let you do is just haul files directly from desktop programs to the Clie or Memory stick. I will admit that took some getting used to on my Clie and gives the PPC a distinct advantage.

I think if you look at Sony's current lineup and couple it with Palm's announcements of the past week you can see exactly where this is going. Palm and Sony will continue to offer tons of choice at the less than $300 list area that PPCs don't match, even mono models with various resolutions, (though, I am continually awed by Toshiba E310s selling for $200 and less. This week Tiger started offering E310s for $200 after rebate). With these new Sony offerings and the surely coming OS 5 TX665 model (just like the current T665 only with ARM and OS 5) and maybe a surprise or two. At the top end they offer this NX that sells for less than Toshiba's top end (the non-camera model) and far less than Ipaq's with double the resolution, and (for $100 more) a built-in camera.

I think I may go buy some Sony stock and short some HP.

TBone

09-27-2002, 05:13 AM

I have an NR 70V and if you are calling this large, compare it to the leading competition. A sleeves Ipaq WITH a big ol' camera on top filling up the CF slot. This thing is tiny in comparison. OK, you could campare it to the Toshiba E740 without camera and it would be about the same size.

Sure. Of course, I don't think anyone would call the sleeved iPAQ size comparison even close to fair, what with the Maestro, e310, e550g, e740, naked iPAQ 3800/3900, E-200, Jornada 560, and Zayo all the same size or smaller, and offering equivalent if not better expansion. None of them have a camera built-in, but most of them can handle a higher-res one without much increase in size.

This is also a boon for the 20 million current Palm owners (just kidding, Ed. I know that those 20 million sold don't represent anywhere near that many individual users)....OK, 7-8 million users who were flumoxed over whether to abandon the Palm OS they know and go over to the dark side. With the NX, out there is far less reason to do so. That is a significant plus for this Sony and any Palm OS model. One reason that Palm is selling Palm M100s for as little as $40 (LIST RETAIL) in Japan and will be selling the Zire models really cheap and easy here.

Actually, if I were to buy a Palm device nowadays, it wouldn't be one of these over-priced monstrosities. It would be one of the cheaper OS 4.1 models, since that would cover my needs. I think most people would follow along. The only reason that I could move to PocketPC is because it offers MORE power at the low end, as opposed to decent power only at the very top end.

If you really want to handle files rather than let the Palm OS and VFS programs handle them for you there are at least 10 programs that will let you do so. About the only thing they won't let you do is just haul files directly from desktop programs to the Clie or Memory stick. I will admit that took some getting used to on my Clie and gives the PPC a distinct advantage.

Damn straight it's an advantage. It's not just about a file structure, it's about a file system. Whether an add-on program will let you use directories or not is pretty irrelevant to me, as is the VFS. What matters to me is the ability to swap files transparently with another computer--the database format of all--let me repeat that--ALL PalmOS files makes it a contrary platform to say the least. I can't do web-editing on a Palm device, I can't do serious image-editing direct-to-binary, and I can't open regular format multimedia, just to name a few headaches I can live without.

I think if you look at Sony's current lineup and couple it with Palm's announcements of the past week you can see exactly where this is going. Palm and Sony will continue to offer tons of choice at the less than $300 list area that PPCs don't match (though, I am continually awed by Toshiba E310s selling for $200 and less. This week Tiger started offering E310s for $200 after rebate). With these new Sony offerings and the surely coming OS 5 TX665 model (just like the current T665 only with ARM and OS 5) and maybe a surprise or two. At the top end they offer this NX that sells for less than Toshiba's top end (the non-camera model) and far less than Ipaq's with double the resolution, and (for $100 more) a built-in camera.

I think I may go buy some Sony stock and short some HP.

Fine by me. But I think you're ignoring several prospective PocketPC announcements as well, such as the Dell PocketPC that will compete directly in this space, the upcoming low-end iPAQ product, and the advantages that will appear on the PocketPC side when the .NET CLR Mobile appears.

SassKwatch

09-27-2002, 06:01 AM

And it has a flip cover (the keyboard).

Why can't pocket pcs have flip covers?
I may well be a minority of one here, but I hope they *NEVER* do.

ricktakagi

09-27-2002, 06:37 AM

I find the new Sony to be a great looking PDA and one that would take care of most everyday needs. A good conduit for a PPC and a sony is available for mac users at least. I wish that activesync was available for the mac but no luck...yet.

Rick T.

szamot

09-27-2002, 06:49 AM

Why can't pocket pcs have flip covers?[/quote]
I may well be a minority of one here, but I hope they *NEVER* do.[/quote]

nothing wrong with being a minority of ONE.

I personally hate SONY-everything. Sony PDA marketing approach is the same as their customer electronics. Sony would have you believe that they invent so much that they need to change and update the product line every 6 months or so, every month for PDA's - that is absurd.

Sony “seems” to be inventing everything all the time, their marketing machine is good and well oiled, but let’s be honest the last best thing that Sony did invent was the walkman, not much since then and that was a long time ago. Let’s see, MiniDisk – flop, Memory Stick – flop, Digital Cameras with CD burner – flop to name a few.

Second – go to any store and look at any Sony electronic devices – they are doted with buttons for every single useless function you can think of – seems like PDA’s are following the same trend all they are missing is a toilet bowl and a flush tank. Now go and look at a Denon DTR 2000 DAT player or a Nakamichi Dragon or a Sonic Frontiers 20 Watt tube amp. Not only do they look sleeker and are aesthetically more pleasing they perform their function superbly well. In fact most of them are abut 10 years old but they all sound better than any of the “new Sony” inventions do today. In fact in you were to believe that SONY is high end equipment you would be sadly mistaken. They are the WalMart, the ValueVillage or the SAAN of the high end electronic industry. Just like the Toshiba, and Ipaq and HP’s are the Nakamichi’s and Mark Levisons of the PDA industry Sony grabs the other end of the spectrum but the ignorant will never know.

I just can’t comprehend why Sony has not learned that proprietary = bad, standard = good, it is quite elementary really. We all know of the companies that wanted to rule the market and the world with their proprietary technologies and we all know what happened to them. It is good to have the world-saving-all-serving technology, but unless someone is willing to pay for it, your technology is as useless as anything that has not yet materialized. SELL, DESIGN, BUILT – not design, built sell.

I give up!

portus

09-27-2002, 07:13 AM

PocketLoft.com has info (from ClieSource) that speculated the Clie NX series will run on an XScale at either 200 or 400 MHz. There will be two models NX70 and NX60. One without the Camera, like the NR series. Wow, OS5 running at 200 MHz XScale ... If Palm is able to keep Palm OS5 as lean and mean as OS4, this thing is going to scream!

Take1

09-27-2002, 12:04 PM

Well, MS had better WAKE UP and revise their OS to make use of the X-Scale processors or Sony will begin stealing their thunder. It couldn't hurt to boost the resolution on the now low-res 320 x 240 to something like the Clie. My NR-70 is fantastic for most of the day to day stuff, but I rely on my iPAQ for games, video and audio (dual CF sleeve). If Sony had done it right, there wouldn't be any real reason NOT to buy an NR-90 in the current sluggish state of the PPC OS. The NR series form factor has been the #1 reason I like to take it around instead of my iPAQ.

Sony blew it in two areas so far that's not making this unit as big a threat as it could have been -- 1. CF is crippleware 2. MS STILL can only be had at 128 MB (don't believe a word they say about 1 GB MS this Christmas).

As it is now, My NR-70 does everything I need very well for daily tasks (eBooks, on the go audio, and web clipping) -- even though I have FastCPU installed, the only thing I've overclocked is the Kinoma video player and HandDBase -- Everything else runs without pause. I'll sit out this round of PPC/Clie stuff and wait until Spring/Fall -- Sony's got my money if they can work out the stupid stuff in this model. PPC's got even further to go with low-res and no built in screen protection -- let's hope MS and the hardware folks take notice this spring and surpise us all.

Another saving grace is the fact that Palm software is still going to be rather anemic until the development community figure out ways to use all those extra MHz that's in the units. Expect movies, audio, and other such apps to arrive in numbers come next Spring.

Bill had better INNOVATE and get things rolling or Sony's going to spank him hard.

Timothy Rapson

09-27-2002, 01:16 PM

PalmOS files makes it a contrary platform to say the least.

There are a couple of file formats that work on my Clie just as they do on my PPC. The JPEG picture files are not only easily sharable as they are with any other computer, they store in a DCIM folder on the memory stick just as on the camera or other device.
My hope would be that OS 5 programs could extend this to more files and to files in RAM. From what I hear it won't. So, as you point out one point for PPC and a BIG one.

[guote]Maestro, e310, e550g, e740, naked iPAQ 3800/3900, E-200, Jornada 560, and Zayo
[/quote]

Of all the PPC models you list only the e550G and E740 offer a slot for the camera and a slot for storage memory at the same time (the E-200 and Maestro are discontinued models). If you are going to do video you will need this even on a 64 meg model. So, as I said above. The Sleeved Ipaq with camera on top is huge. The E730 may be comparable in size. How is a Zayo equivalent or better in expansion. The NX has what amounts to means of expansion. The CF, Memory stick, and camera. That camera would take up the only slot available on that Zayo and the SD camera available for the Zayo is the same VGA resolution as the one included on this NX. With the Zayo you would have a 64 meg machine (compared to 16 meg if reports hold up. I rather expect the NX will ship with 64 meg.) The NX would still have both slots open. Not comparable at all.

Your point about the new Dells and Ipaq coming out soon is well taken. If Sony can't see how to make money on the coming #400 TX665 while Dell and HP are selling color models (with that admittedly familiar and wonderful real file structure from the PPC :) at $300 it takes a part of the PDA market away from Palm OS that I would not have expected.

Timothy Rapson

09-27-2002, 01:25 PM

Why can't pocket pcs have flip covers?
I may well be a minority of one here, but I hope they *NEVER* do.Sony did invent was the walkman, not much since then and that was a long time ago. Let’s see, MiniDisk – flop, Memory Stick – flop, Digital Cameras with CD burner – flop to name a few.
I give up![/quote]

Now, you can't do it with the NX, but for most all the other PDAs, if you don't want the cover you can just take it off.

Sony also invented the 3.5 inch floppy.

The MiniDisk is a flop? Other than the CD it may be the best selling digital music recording format in the world.

The Memory stick outsells SC/MMC by two to three times.

Digital cameras? Sony is huge in digital cameras.

How about PlayStation? They didn't exactly invent the desktop video game. (All people still loyal to Atari can be offended that Sony swiped the idea.) But, they did make one nice enough to be our first home VG system.

Sony is 10 times as innovative as Microsoft. How can a company be accused of being proprietary and dirivative at the same time?

I guess I will have to be the minority of one on this other side of these. :?: :wink:

Ed Hansberry

09-27-2002, 01:28 PM

gmelfissg

09-27-2002, 02:43 PM

Hi Ed,

It's look's like everytime some company has something better then the ipaq you destroyt the competion with biased opinion which are based are nothing but your preference and has to do for no actual facts.

If you want to do favor to people visiting on your site, Can you try to be more logical on your explanation. Toshiba and Sony have done more for the palm and pocket pc then any company recently. That's a fact of life.

Ipaq may regain the crown later own but for now at least give credit for those two companies. They wil sell a lot of their pocket pc and palm machine because people want innovation and more feature for their money which Ipaq hasn't give them lately unless you pay a ridicule overinflated price.

Ed Hansberry

09-27-2002, 03:16 PM

It's look's like everytime some company has something better then the ipaq you destroyt the competion with biased opinion which are based are nothing but your preference and has to do for no actual facts.

Did you see the part where I said I liked the UI? I never like the CE clamshells. I don't care for the SOny clamshell. Not a onehanded device. I think the other Clie's are beautiful but I DESPISE the proprietary nature of the MS slot.

I am tickled to death this stuff is coming out. It is better overall for the market. Gimme a Clie device with Pocket PC on it and an SD slot and I'd use it in a minute. Wait... that is the e310 isn't it? :D

The propiretary nature of Sony is my only major gripe with them. I don't ever recall saying anything bad about Toshiba. Great devices. I can't think of anything bad to say about them.

PPCRules

09-27-2002, 04:01 PM

If this model (NR/NX70 series) didn't exist, is there any Palm OS device that PocketPC people would be admiring and speaking respectfully of? (I'm expecting a 'no' answer at this point.) Doesn't say too much for the Palm OS device offerings. But then, with only two suppliers (of any significance) there isn't much chance of having numerous compelling offerings.

Although I'm sure there are mixed feelings at Palm(hardware), PalmSource has to be glad Sony is there.

(new thought)
Interesting that Sony goes out of it's way to integrates a CF slot (albeit apparently crippled) when they could accomplish the same thing in a different way, while PocketPC makers seem to insist that a CF slot won't fit in new devices (crippling the whole device).

(new thought)
And what's with the placement of that wireless 'slot'? Will this thing still be able to flip around to use in the traditional screen up mode with that thing in the way?
This might be the real reason to cripple the slot. Can't have any device that sticks out, like modem, lan card. To keep that from being an issue, disable those devices.

(last thought)
Having read all these comments (whew!), I don't understand this being such a big deal that will retain Palm users from going to PocketPC. To most of them, this is an incremental change from NR70 series, so if they didn't jump on that, this won't make them. (My point being, for the majority of Palm device buyers, OS5 and Xscale are not going to be a big deal.)

Ed Hansberry

09-27-2002, 04:23 PM

If this model (NR/NX70 series) didn't exist, is there any Palm OS device that PocketPC people would be admiring and speaking respectfully of?
No, not from me anyway because of the OS. For me the PalmOS is far too limiting for what I do. However, I continue to recommend the lower end Sony products to people when I find out what their need are and find out that in many cases, a PPC would be overkill.

Deslock

09-27-2002, 04:38 PM

It's a very impressive design. BTW, it has MP4 playback, not just video playback. I wonder if it would be possible to create a battery pack that fits in the CF slot... that would be nice for users who don't want wireless.

All these new handheld designs (PPC, Palm, and Linux) are really cool. That said, I find myself less enthusiastic than I used to be (I've been a gadget fan since the HP200LX). I really don't see most of them as providing much extra functionality over older units. Sure the NX70V has better camera resolution, can film short movies and playback MP4. Sure you can get PPCs with built in 802.11b that have "real" file systems and multitasking.

But as far as productivity goes, all of these devices are limited due to their small screens (4" on the new Toshiba is still not enough to get real work done) and low resolution (same goes for 480x320 on the NR/NX, though it's a lot more usable than 320x240). Right now, I only occasionally edit spreadsheets and documents on my PDA (while I used to do “work” with it more often). Nowadays, I mostly use it for PIM, games, and viewing family photos. I certainly see *specific* cases where the capabilities of these new devices does come in handy, but in general, I suspect that most users (even power users) don't have a need for the extra features.

I think it may have to do with the fact that laptops have improved just as quickly as PDAs. I have less desire to do work on a Palm or PPC since I started using a Fujitsu sub-notebook. The Lifebook P-2110 is small, light, well priced, and versatile. It runs XP, weighs 2.8 pounds if you remove the modular CDRW/DVD drive (and 3.4 pounds with it), has an 867 MHz CPU, 30 GB hdd, 384 MB RAM (actually expandable to 512 MB, even though Fujitsu lists 384 as the max), 802.11b, modem, 10/100 LAN, USB, firewire, S-video, useable keyboard, and an amazingly bright and crisp 1280x768 wide-screen (I find that 1024x768 is a bit cramped for programming, but the Lifebook’s extra 25% is a world of difference).

Most importantly, it’s instant on (takes only 1-2 seconds to resume from Standby) and if you use the modular bay battery (in place of optical drive) and dual capacity battery, you get 10-14 hours battery life, depending on how you use it.

Because of the Lifebook, I no longer use a PDA for much more than PIM. And I don’t use a desktop computer often anymore either.

I know I just rambled way off topic, but I’m curious if other handheld power users are experiencing the same ho-hum reaction to these new PDA designs with subnotebooks like the P-series around. I know the NX70V and PPC are considerably smaller, but you need to bring a power adapter on long trips and an external keyboard if you do any substantial data entry. At that point, I find it’s far easier to just work with the Lifebook.

Furthermore, the Fujitsu P-1000 series is even smaller, lighter, and has a touch screen (still runs XP, weighs only 2.2 pounds, and costs only $1099) but it’s less functional than the P-2110 (has only a 1024x600 screen, no optical drive).

With the upcoming Tablet PC push and other micro-PC devices announced, I don't see Palm and PPC’s really taking off for anything beyond PIM and fluff.

roberto_torres

09-27-2002, 05:00 PM

Ed: In the article you say standard 160x160 launcher. That's wrong, the launcher on the picture is OS 5 sandard launcher and that one is 320x320. All OS 5 units are going to be 320x320 in resolution.

Also the cammera has a resolution of 640x480.

roberto_torres

09-27-2002, 05:05 PM

Does it stand up to a PocketPC? Not really.

[/quote]

Hardware wise yes it does, It is better at multimedia than a PPC. the resolution is higher (320x480 vs PPC 240x320), It has a keyboard, a 640x480 cammera, Sony's MP3 players are hardware accelerated, and my favourite the case is magnesium not easy to scratch like aluminum.

That appart, I like more the programs available for PPC. But many previous palm users that switched to PPC due to the multimedia capabilities may change back to Palm OS.

mookie123

09-27-2002, 05:07 PM

Interesting that Sony goes out of it's way to integrates a CF slot (albeit apparently crippled) when they could accomplish the same thing in a different way, while PocketPC makers seem to insist that a CF slot won't fit in new devices (crippling the whole device).

And what's with the placement of that wireless 'slot'? Will this thing still be able to flip around to use in the traditional screen up mode with that thing in the way? This might be the real reason to cripple the slot. Can't have any device that sticks out, like modem, lan card. To keep that from being an issue, disable those devices.

The CF slot can only accept ONE Sony WiFi card. It is not a standard CF card, tho it is not clear how they disable it since the CF support is integrated within Xscale.

True enough iPAQ has no integrated CF, but sledge option exist, and it can accept all CF if driver exist. This not mentioning various brands with integrated CF. NRx does not have that option, hence it is crippled.

So speaking of expansion, NRx will depends on MS for all practical purposes. Or to put it blandly, only 128 mb or less memory and a single yet to be released WiFi card are available for NRx. There is no LAN, modem, Camera, display socket option for NRX, sticking out or no sticking out.....!!!

NRx is a show off PDA. A shiny magenesium case with big screen but nothing else. the camera is not the best, the CPU is not the fastest, limited memory, questionable wireless, OS is untried, almost no peripherals, and pretty darned expensive for a a cutesy magnesium brick with toy camera.

Is it even upgradable to OS 6.0???

roberto_torres

09-27-2002, 05:17 PM

"uses a 200MHz ARM, not Strongarm - probaly same speed, but it isn't the SA. Actually, probably a ARM v5 processor, so better on power - maybe. "

ARM v5 is not compatible with Palm OS 5, neither is Strong ARM. The only Intel processor supported by OS 5 is the Xsacale. By the way Palm OS 5 has full support for Xscale unlike the PPC.

Ed Hansberry

09-27-2002, 05:34 PM

sweetpete

09-27-2002, 06:17 PM

The CF slot can only accept ONE Sony WiFi card. It is not a standard CF card, tho it is not clear how they disable it since the CF support is integrated within Xscale.

Actually, according to the spec sheet it is a standard CF Type II slot, but it only accepts the Sony WLAN card. They could disable it any number of ways with a software or hardware check.

Timothy Rapson

09-27-2002, 06:33 PM

The MiniDisk is a flop? Other than the CD it may be the best selling digital music recording format in the world.

Isn't that like saying the Mac is the 2nd best selling personal computing platform of all time? Still a bug fart in the overall scheme of things.

I am not sure about the various media, but Mini-Disk is not a flop. I guess I have some research to do....na. not worth the bother. I give up. The Mini-Disk is a flop.

4AMFriday

09-27-2002, 06:35 PM

I see a good amount of comments in this thread regarding the general dislike of the "proprietary" Sony Memory Stick storage medium. If I recall correctly, Acer has a Palm model to be released soon with a Memory Stick slot. There is also a new expansion sled from PI Tech available for the IPaq that has both a CF and MS slot. It seems as if Sony is beginning to loosen the chain a bit on this medium.

One last thought. Sony looks to be taking the Memory Stick in some interesting new directions. It's funny when I think that my IPaq 3850 (You know, the Palm bashing "Power User" device) will never be able to do this with its' Secure Crippled.. err, I mean Digital expansion slot.

http://www.pocketphile.com/upload/Sony-New-MS.jpg

kaiden.1

09-27-2002, 07:53 PM

Looks like Sony using the Palm Platform is looking to push the envelope so far as to have available all the cool extra "add-ons" via pluging them into the memory stick, that all of us PPC users are wanting from our manufacturers. Sony has it together and they know how to push the envelope and Expand................... my goodness, can't the PPC community get their act together. Right on Sony! They are goig to go places you can count on it. If you want to do something with your Ipaq, Drag your suitcases of sleds around so you can slip on all that extra crap. I really hate that part of the Ipaq. My goodness; it's really not compact at all. It's FAT and Heavy and I really HATE that!!!!! :x You just can't knock what sony is doing!

welwyngc

09-27-2002, 08:59 PM

roberto_torres

09-27-2002, 09:04 PM

ARM v5 is not compatible with Palm OS 5, neither is Strong ARM. The only Intel processor supported by OS 5 is the Xsacale. By the way Palm OS 5 has full support for Xscale unlike the PPC.
I beleive that is incorrect. Palm has stated OS 5 is ARM v5 ready. They may not be doing any ARM v4 chips. Motorola, Intel and TI are already selling v5 chips. No need for Palm to worry about v4 compatibility as they are not using any v4 chips. The 200MHz chip here I think is the Intel X-Scale PXA210. - http://www.intel.com/design/pca/prodbref/298621.htm

Sorry I confused V4 (the one in wich Strong ARM is based) with v5 (the one in wich Xscale is based). And yes thats right the Clie will be using the Sscale processor.

Also to the one who comented about Acer doing a Palm OS unit with Mstick: They also have a PPC that uses Memory Stick, but still thats not ehnough to compare the Memory stick to SD/MMC

Ed Hansberry

09-27-2002, 09:22 PM

Also to the one who comented about Acer doing a Palm OS unit with Mstick: They also have a PPC that uses Memory Stick, but still thats not ehnough to compare the Memory stick to SD/MMC
Yup. Acer 20n I think.

mja8105

09-27-2002, 10:22 PM

[quote=roberto_torres]ARM v5 is not compatible with Palm OS 5, neither is Strong ARM. The only Intel processor supported by OS 5 is the Xsacale. By the way Palm OS 5 has full support for Xscale unlike the PPC.
I beleive that is incorrect. Palm has stated OS 5 is ARM v5 ready. They may not be doing any ARM v4 chips. Motorola, Intel and TI are already selling v5 chips. No need for Palm to worry about v4 compatibility as they are not using any v4 chips. The 200MHz chip here I think is the Intel X-Scale PXA210. - http://www.intel.com/design/pca/prodbref/298621.htm

I hope NX70V stands for XScale!!

4AMFriday

09-27-2002, 10:26 PM

Also to the one who comented about Acer doing a Palm OS unit with Mstick: They also have a PPC that uses Memory Stick, but still thats not ehnough to compare the Memory stick to SD/MMC

I wasn't necessarily trying to "compare" the Sony Memory Stick to the SD/MMC cards. The point I was trying to make was that it seems as if the majority of the "Anti-Memory Stick" posts in this thread circle around the idea that the Sony Memory Stick is proprietary, and only used in devices built by Sony.

While it is true that Sony has a proven track record of keeping their technology such as the Memory Stick to themselves, and typically turn their backs on the idea of licensing such technology out to other companies, the fact that we have both an Acer PalmOS and PPC device utilizing this medium around the corner just goes to show you that the Memory Stick may no longer be as "proprietary" as you think. The question is just how far Sony is planning on taking the licensing of the MS medium out to other manufacturers.

As seen in the picture I posted on page four of this thread, Sony is already taking the MS storage medium into the IO arena with some rather interesting ideas. Acer and PI Tech have devices (For PPC no less) utilizing the MS medium. How long will it be until the MS becomes as widespread as the SD medium?

johncruise

09-27-2002, 11:10 PM

[As seen in the picture I posted on page four of this thread, Sony is already taking the MS storage medium into the IO arena with some rather interesting ideas.

I guess some of you already saw this.... Sony is selling a digital camera MS interface that you can plug on the CLIE (certain models only). They are available at Fry's Electronics right now (seen it over a month ago).

jet8810

09-28-2002, 01:14 AM

how thick is this thing? Hardware is impressive, but looks pretty thick!

spursdude

09-28-2002, 01:23 AM

Mark (NL)

09-28-2002, 02:01 AM

The MiniDisk is a flop? Other than the CD it may be the best selling digital music recording format in the world.

Isn't that like saying the Mac is the 2nd best selling personal computing platform of all time? Still a bug fart in the overall scheme of things.

Maybe it ain't that big in the States and other (Northern) America's it seems to be doing just fine in Europe and Asia!

Timothy Rapson

09-28-2002, 02:03 AM

how thick is this thing? Hardware is impressive, but looks pretty thick!

2.875" / 5.5" / .9375", 8 oz (i got this off of the pdf posted on the first page of comments in this thread)

compare this to:
-toshiba e310: .5 in. thick, 4.9 oz
-ipaq 3950: .6 in. thick, 6.5 oz

(i got those specs off of cnet.com)

yeah, the sony is a monster.

another issue is battery life: 10 days....at 30 minutes per day with backlight off! this means 5 hours with backlight off. my audiovox maestro can do better than that. with backlight on, the battery life (in my prediction), will be awful, especially when you add wireless card and start snapping photos.

There have now been two big rumor reports of a NR70V replacement:

Earlier reports had a model about the size of the old N series .7 (maybe even .8 inches thick, they have to put a much bigger battery in there somewhere) by 2.88 by 4.9 or so. I think that model, not the one in this thread, is what the final one will be. It won't have the keyboard that no one has saluted anyway (also as reported in earlier rumors). I don't think it will be a clamshell. A little more room at the bottom for more battery. A smooth back with room for both WiFi and MS, maybe MS duo is what I expect. The other details (except I expect 64 meg RAM) are probably as reported in both rumor runs, though the earlier rumor had a 1 or even 2 megapixel still capture. Don't have any guess as to whether that or this is the real camera res.

In any case there is no reasonable way to compare this to the Toshiba e310. The new TX 665 is the competition for the e310. This model competes with the e740. Calling this a monster compared to the e310 is as pointless as comparing a Ford pickup to a Corvette.

And having seen all these pictures and thinking about this for a while I have concluded that this is not the new CLie. Simply not.

Here is why I think this is a mockup used for testing and developing new software and marketing layouts of the *real* NX model.

The WiFi slot sled that is currently available adds a battery. Where is the battery power for this WiFi slot? Nowhere. If this is the new Clie there is not room in there for a bigger battery. The bottom half of the case is exactly like the current NR. No way. The current battery without a sled battery auxilary boost would last 30 minutes. You could take 5 minutes of video before the battery was drained. Nope, don't believe it.

Moreover it is that .9375 inches thick just for the WiFi/CF slot. The rest of the case is a current NR70V case. It looks ridiculous. Sony would not release something that looked like such an obvious hack. The carbuncle PDA they would call it.

Nope, lots of laughs at Sony this week acting outraged about this leak, but I don't even think this is the real deal. But we will know soon. I think the reported delivery dates are accurate.

We'll see.

Announce that they are making the Memory Stick a completely open format and that they will ship a 1 gig MS the same time as the NX comes and they will price match any CF card price and Sony could own the world! Well, I have never been accused of being too realistic.

spursdude

09-28-2002, 02:17 AM

In any case there is no reasonable way to compare this to the Toshiba e310. The new TX 665 is the competition for the e310. This model competes with the e740. Calling this a monster compared to the e310 is as pointless as comparing a Ford pickup to a Corvette.

you're absolutely right. i wasn't trying to put the e310 up against this new sony, but rather using the e310 as a point of reference.

i do see the ipaq comparison as viable, although the ipaq doesn't have a CF or MS slot or a camera. anyways, almost 1 inch thick is just fat...there are laptops thinner than this.

Take1

09-28-2002, 08:09 AM

.9 inches thick?! This is Casio terrirtory!

Well this thing will flop if it's as heavy as the HP54x series, as thick as a Casio E-1xx series and is crammed full of proprietary crap.

I understand the battery life is 5 hours WITHOUT backlight? Is that including WiFi card or not. I imagine you'll get 1 hour with WiFi and med/bright backlight. Not good at all.

If they simply took the NR-70 put an SD slot along with a MS slot and bulked up the battery but only added .2 to the thickness along with all the software enhancements, this would put PPC on the hot seat.

If this is turns out to be true, then Sony's got the technical talent, but not the market research to do it right. Bill can now relax as Tungsten and it's teeny weeny hi-res screen is the only competition this fall.

Scott R

09-28-2002, 01:27 PM

i do see the ipaq comparison as viable, although the ipaq doesn't have a CF or MS slot or a camera.
Actually, then, an iPaq with CF sleeve would be a more honest comparison.

Scott

Scott R

09-28-2002, 01:47 PM

Timothy, I have a nagging feeling that you could be right. The conspiracy theorist in me even wonders if this whole PDF file might have been a phony. Either Sony did it themselves to spread some misinformation or they may have just taken advantage of the publicity around some other lonely geek's farce and ran with it to, again, spur up misinformation prior to announcing the "real deal."

However, that's probably not likely. It probably is the real deal. Though I don't think all of the information known is accurate. In one place in the PDF it states that the dimensions don't include protruding parts. I would consider the CF slot a protruding part. Yet, the .9" thickness must be including that, no?

Then there's the issue of the battery life. The specs provided are abyssmal even without considering the 802.11b. So, if those battery life times were right, the battery life with Sony's special CF 802.11b card would be completely unacceptable. I don't care what magic they worked with their version of the 802.11b card. 802.11b is known for sucking battery life.

Lastly, I don't feel great about the lack of detail around the processor. It just says 200MHz. They don't say whether it's X-Scale or ARM or what. They provided quite a bit of detail around everything else, so why such little info around a seemingly important marketing item?

Aside from the initial conspiracy-theory view (that the whole thing is a fake), another possibility is simply that some of the details in the PDF were incorrect. I'd imagine that battery life is better than stated and the thickness includes the CF slot (which also implies that it doesn't feel .9" thick).

My overall take on this device, if it turns out to be real (and the specs turn out to be fairly accurate)? It's everything that the original PPC was and more. IOW, it's a great show-off device with it's super-high-res screen, twistable screen, camera/videocamera, MP3 player, etc. But, like the original PPC devices, it doesn't make for a great PDA. It's too big, too heavy, and doesn't have enough battery life.

Regarding the value of the thumbboard. As I've said many times before (in various places), I think that a thumbboard adds real value to a wireless-enabled device as thumbboards are better than Graffiti for medium to long text notes. These are precisely the kinds of things you want to do with a wireless device (i.e. - send SMS, send email, IM). I think that this device would be a bit more interesting if they built in Bluetooth and probably dropped the CF slot altogether (or could add a second MS slot without adding to the size of the device at all).

As far as Palm's Tungsten device? Again, while this device beats it hands down in the eyes of a holster-toting geek, the Tungsten looks to be much smaller (perhaps even smaller than the smallest of the new PPC devices - at least in height). Palm's initial success with the V-series (and later with the m5xx-series) has been with those who greatly value portability and so it could be quite successful if priced appropriately.

Scott

Marcel_Proust

09-28-2002, 01:51 PM

My this is a lot of air and excitment for a mock up.
These are always coming out for Palm and the ever elusive Mac Handheld. But I'm a bit miffed never for the PocketPc - at least not ones so believable and professionally done. Can't anyone here do one and dissesminate it so this time it's the people at PalmThoughts or whatever they are called are turned into rambling Chicken Littles wondering if the device is the One that will kill Palm and their software investment?

Ed Hansberry

09-28-2002, 01:54 PM

i do see the ipaq comparison as viable, although the ipaq doesn't have a CF or MS slot or a camera.
Actually, then, an iPaq with CF sleeve would be a more honest comparison.

Scott
The 38/3900's have a built in SD slot and some have Bluetooth depending on the model. I use my CF sleeve about 25% of the time I used to, which was only about 25% of the time to begin with.

• 64MB of internal memory
• 48MB of iPAQ file store (3900)/22MB (3800)
• 128MB SD card
• Bluetooth for internet access via GPRS

I only use my CF sleeve (in the form of the Krussel Whitney CF cover) when I travel so I can take my 256MB CF card full of music and use the modem/WiFi/Cat5 connection, or occasionally when I am sitting on the couch downstairs and want to connect the WiFi network.

If you want to bulk up the iPAQ so it can do the same thing the NX70 can do, yes, you have to add the CF sleeve.

If you want to make the NX70 do the same thing the iPAQ can do... good luck. No way to get that kind of storage space on the device, the modem (if available) would be a serial clip on, no option for a plain old CAT-5 ethernet connection which is still far more common in hotels and even businesses. And no way to slim the NX70 down to the iPAQ.

Same comparisons could be used with the Toshiba e740 vs. the NX70 too. The NX70 is very impressive, but I wouldn't own one even if it had Pocket PC on it. The proprietaryness of the Sony WiFi slot is a joke IMHO. Even if it was a standard CF, I still wouldn't because you can't take it out of your pocket and use it one handed to look data up.

Bob Anderson

09-28-2002, 02:40 PM

While I have mixed opinions about whether or not the information is "true" or a "mock-up" for some devious reason... I'll continue to say what I've said all along: too little, too late.

Sony, and the entire PALM camp, are now playing catch-up. They are finally getting a device that in some ways may compete with what MSFT had about two years ago.

But what's amazing here is that people are trying to compare today's PPCs to these new PALM devices ... when in fact you KNOW that the cooks at MSFT are busy getting ready to release something new, that will most likely take what we've been extremely satisfied with and make it even better. (not to mention it will make the Palm V5 thing look like a weak competitor.)

In a worst case scenario, Sony/Palm might get a momentary "bounce" in their market share, but ultimately, the PPC market will continue to grow and be the most innovative platform around.

kaiden.1

09-28-2002, 03:53 PM

Boy we are all so very opinionated! Have we forgotten that there are a LOT of palm users out there still, and stubborn ones to boot! This might be what it takes to move them over, but they will still choose plam. It is too early to predict "to little to late" at this point. Not everyone wants multimedia and MP3's, etc. I know lots of people who are happy with just the simpleness of palm, and although I am not one of them, that doesn't mean that PPC will take over, there is too much diversity in the world and everyone has their own taste, and it just be plain vanilla, without all the fancy toppings. I think that palm is moving in the right direction and I congratulate them, and Sony for doing what no one else has been able to. And who really knows other than speculation, if it will do anything to change any minds. I think it is a strong step in the right direction and we will all have to sit back and see where it goes. Let's not be so predudice and congratulate the new stuff.

Timothy Rapson

09-28-2002, 06:17 PM

[quote="Scott R"][quote=spursdude]i Even if it was a standard CF, I still wouldn't because you can't take it out of your pocket and use it one handed to look data up.

I had an Ipaq. I have an NR70V. I used to keep the mono Ipaq in my pocket without any sort of screen protection (I only paid $60 for it). On rare occasion (I paid $500 for it!) I keep the Clie in my pocket flipped open. And when I do, I use it exactly as I would have the Ipaq, except of course it has the nice scroll wheel that makes it even easier to scroll through DiddleBug.

Now, my Ipaq had only 16 meg and no SD/MMC slot, so I really had to use the sleeve all the time. Are MMC cards up to what 512 meg? That would be cool. Still comparable to the cameraless model only.

This whole thread just rocks! Ed and I have not called each other bad names yet. Even with Scott here. 8)