Palm readies first hardware salvo in a long time [Archive]

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Ed Hansberry

09-21-2002, 11:30 PM

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-958708.html">http://news.com.com/2100-1040-958708.html</a> These new Palm PDAs will be the first new designs from the company in quite a while. The last really new products from Palm were the Palm V and Palm VII. Everything since then has been a repackaged version of an older model or incremental changes with new features like color or an expansion slot. Two of these could present a challenge to the Pocket PC, so I'll go over their features here. Heck, some of you might even want one, but don't tell us because we'll revoke your membership. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif" /> <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif" /> <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020921-palmtungstentsmall.jpg" /> So, to get a brief overview of what's coming, select the More... link below. Let's just say Jason nailed it a few months ago with the Oslo image. <!> First off, thanks to <a href="http://www.geek.com">Geek.com</a> for the Zire and Tungsten T images. Obviously, the Tungsten W image came from <a href="http://www.palminfocenter.com">Palm Info Center</a>. Palm Zire <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020921-palmzire.jpg" /> I don't know if this is the final name of the product, but it doesn't matter. This is not on your shopping list if you want a powerful device. This will likely take the place of the M100 series. • 2MB of RAM • Palm OS 4.1 • Doesn't use the universal connector • No card expansion • Under $100 Tungsten T <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020921-palmtungstent.jpg" /> This is the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=16481&highlight=oslo#16481">Oslo first shown here</a> over two months ago. Now, this is a photoshopped image, not one of a real device, so put your magnifying glasses away. • The Graffiti area slides out of the way • Finally, an OS5 device • TI OMAP1510 processor running at 175MHz. This chip as an integrated DSP. • 320X320 Hi-res screen • Headphone jack, microphone and speaker • 16MB of RAM • SD slot • 4.8" (open)/4.0" (closed) long, 3" wide, .6 deep inches • 5.6oz • Bluetooth integrated. • $500, but that isn't firm. Tungsten W <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020921-palmtungstenw.jpg" /> This is Palm's first entry into the phone/pda combo space, though Palm licensees Handspring, Samsung and a few others have already ventured into this area. I saw this and thought "Wow - they are aiming squarely at the Pocket PC Phone with this, but a closer look at the specs indicates they aren't. • Palm OS 4.1. This is not an OS 5 device. • 33MHz Dragonball • 16MB • No Graffiti area. Nothing slides on this one. You only get the keyboard. • 320X320 Hi-res screen • GPRS/GSM Wireless network • SD slot on the side • Headset required for voice calls. This seems to be a i705 replacement with just a touch of voice thrown in. You couldn't carry this in your pocket and quickly answer a phone call as you could with a normal smartphone. • Third party browser called WebPro. The Palm OS 5 web browser will not work on this device. • Price unknown. I would suspect something in the $450-600 range given the GPRS/GSM radio and color screen. So, what do you think? Personally, the Tungsten T looks appealing, but at $500 I would rather have a Toshiba e310, which has more everything (except size - it is a smidge taller and wider, and thinner, and .7oz lighter) than the Tungsten T except for integrated Bluetooth. In fact, with the deal Amazon has on the e310, you could buy two 310's for $500. What really surprises me is the Tungsten W wireless device. OS 4.1? Are they insane? I can't imagine the public wanting to buy a slick new device running last decades OS when shipping simultaneously are OS 5 devices. I have to think Sony, Handspring or Samsung has been busy with OS 5 and wireless development these past few months. Any threat to the Pocket PC momentum in these releases?

Boxster S

09-21-2002, 11:38 PM

I see no threat with Tungsten T. The whole moveable grafitti area seems ridiculously overdone and unnecesarily complex with the moving compartment. Why not just have a larger screen and an electronic "grafitti" area like PocketPC's?

The Tungsten will get pounded by the e310 and the Asus myPal/Zayo

Foo Fighter

09-22-2002, 12:13 AM

This is going to be interesting. The curtain has been drawn, and high-end OS5 hardware Will finally hit the market. What lays ahead for PalmOS is anyone's guess. This will either be the solidifying moment when PalmSource is able to firmly hold Microsoft in place forever...or the market will be unimpressed and find PPC to be the better choice. I plan on buying the Tungsten. My current M505 is WAAAAAAAYYY past its shelf life, and this new device offers a good mix of features that I desire for a decent price. And curiosity has the best of me. :microwave:

One of the basic problems I see is that PalmOS licensees are just now entering the high-end market at a time when PPC manufacturers are managing to produce lower-priced entry level hardware. Which means Palm and Sony won't be able to enjoy those fat margins much longer. Consumers will begin comparing a $499 Tungsten to a $399 Toshiba e310 and wonder why the Palm is $100 more expensive. The only feature Palm managed to beat PPC vendors at was integrating BT for under $499. But I have a suspicion we'll see Pocket PC hardware with built-in wireless at that price point soon.

On the other hand, this could be a serious blow to Microsoft in the longterm. If PalmOS offers all the "bells and whistles" of PPC, what reason will users have to switch platforms?

My biggest question revolves around software development. Will this "new" platform enable core software developers like Real to offer their software and content on OS5 devices? Will we see a RealOne for PalmOS, PocketTV, Macromedia Flash Players, and so on.....?

Only time will tell. So pull up a lawn chair and watch the parade go by. :P

ThomasC22

09-22-2002, 12:26 AM

I just can't win Y'know, thumb keyboard=crappyOS, GoodOS=CrappyWannabeHandWritingRecognition...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

OK, now that I've got that off my chest I think there are a few issues here. Boxster's point is pretty good, virtual graffiti would have probably made more sense here. Aside from MAYBE saving you on the screen scratches I don't see much point to this.

As for Fooey's point, I'm not sure how much the competition is going to work against either side, the fact still remains: those who buy Palms and those who buy PocketPCs are vastly different people. Palm devices are (ok, here I go again p!#!ing people off around here but) STILL easier to use and now they sport a higher res. than PocketPC devices.

PocketPC on the other hand is capable of far more, multimedia especially, and will remain far more capable until ATLEAST Palm OS6 rolls around.

So, if anything I see this as an improvement for Palm. Heck it's better than the m515 and the m515 is selling for the exact same price as the e310 and people, for whatever reason, still buy m515s. So, those same people would probably be willing to pay, for whatever reason, a little extra for a Tungsten.

Just my opinion though...

jlc, just jlc

09-22-2002, 12:27 AM

I plan to buy a T as soon as it's out - to replace my Journada 565. Why:

Smaller size, built in audio (70% of my time is spent listening to music), will run Datebook5.

09-22-2002, 12:35 AM

Any threat to the Pocket PC momentum in these releases?

ed, you forgot these other models. please update, thanks.

http://www.pocketpcmagic.com/palmparody/

cheers,
pt

Timothy Rapson

09-22-2002, 12:44 AM

What this means is that Sony will have a model for the same price with more features. I suspect a T665 type OS 5 model. Soft graffitti is surely in the new Sony OS 5 models. There are tons of software developers supporting Sony soft grafitti (The latest is FITALY! I am beta testing it right now. I am in heaven.) They would not be supporting this if the Sony OS 5 models (that the developers have already seen) didn't have it.

So, the T665/OS 5 will have all the Tungsten does plus soft graffitti, better sound and screen color, probably more memory (but less battery life as a result) and a 206 MZ StrongARM.

The odd thing coming is that Palm needs to make money (Toshiba can't be making any on the e310 at $200, but they are building a base and have money to invest in cracking into the Ipaqs market). Sony seems to be happy selling its low end at cost but high end they want to make money on even with 3-6 month product cycles. (BTW, how in the world do they do that?!)

I think few people who left the Palm world for the video and MP3 power of the PPC will come back to Palm as the chief advantage Palm models had a year ago (price) is gone. But, if this Tungsten will play music for 20 hours on a charge because of some DSP magic in the TI design (BTW, I think we may learn soon that it was TI who put that $50 Million into Palm last year. This is what they got for it, a leg up on Motorola in the OS 5 competition.)... I digress. If .....20 hours..... then Palm may have something. A couple of really clever Blue Tooth accessories and they could have a tech glow again. This Christmas.......

Paul P

09-22-2002, 12:46 AM

Timothy Rapson

09-22-2002, 12:56 AM

The real bad news is that there is no good reason these were not here a year ago.

Foo Fighter

09-22-2002, 01:00 AM

The real bad news is that there is no good reason these were not here a year ago.

Don't get me started, or I will go off on one of my tangents! :twisted:

Boxster S

09-22-2002, 01:09 AM

Ohh, and e310's are NO LONGER $399. I've seen them as low as $199 after rebate and even Amazon is basically giving them away at $249 AR.

heov

09-22-2002, 01:16 AM

Paul P

09-22-2002, 01:18 AM

The whole moveable grafitti area seems ridiculously overdone and unnecesarily complex with the moving compartment. Why not just have a larger screen and an electronic "grafitti" area like PocketPC's?

I agree completely. But I think Palm is not sure of what the effect of not including the grafitti area will be. They want to make the transition to the new Palms as smooth as possible for the current owners. Not including the grafitii area would constitute a considerable departure from the classic design and operation of the unit (IMO, I have never owned a Palm). It seems that they are more concerned with preserving their market share with consistency rather than agressive changes. I like the overall design, however. We'll see if the new OS will stand up to the challenge.

ThomasC22

09-22-2002, 01:40 AM

Ohh, and e310's are NO LONGER $399. I've seen them as low as $199 after rebate and even Amazon is basically giving them away at $249 AR.

Well, the point is more "If someone were to walk into Best Buy they would see these two devices at X and Y price". Comparing deals on the Internet really isn't fair because the are always in flux and the e310 that is $249 today could easily jump back up to $399 tommorrow and the Palm that is $499 today could be selling at buy.com for $299 tommorrow.

Paragon

09-22-2002, 02:25 AM

It's still a "Palm" It still has a small screen. If they really want to revolutionize the device, then do away with the idea of wasting a third of the screen with a graffiti area. I think it was Handera who came out with soft graffiti area so they could use the whole screen. Problem being is there is no software to take advantage of it. At least not that I'm aware of. It's a "catch 22" for them.......Geeeez they shoot horses don't they! :)

Dave

heov

09-22-2002, 03:12 AM

Rumor has it that sony's os 5 device (first, with many to follow, knowing sony) will be the nr70v in the form of a t series with the camera AND CF slot (kinda like the casio/toshibas, except instead of SD, its MS). So, we will have a device with soft graffiti, built in CF (only for IO, no memory is allowed), built in MS, built in camera, a screen @ 320x480 transflective 16 bit, with a Strong ARM 206 under the hood...

At leasts, that's what the source @ the gadgeeter said... Anyway do you ever thing Palm will enter the PPC territory (600+)? I would pay 600 for that sony considering it has dual slots, best screen, StrongARM (video/music/games) and a built in camera...

normaldude

09-22-2002, 03:58 AM

So, what do you think? Personally, the Tungsten T looks appealing, but at $500 I would rather have a Toshiba e310, which has more everything (except size - it is a smidge taller and wider, and thinner, and .7oz lighter) than the Tungsten T except for integrated Bluetooth. In fact, with the deal Amazon has on the e310, you could buy two 310's for $500.

I have had my Toshiba e310 for four months now. The Tungsten T looks really attractive for two reasons:

- integrated Bluetooth
- probably has a flip cover (?)

Those two items are huge on my list.

fundmgr90210

09-22-2002, 04:01 AM

Any threat to the Pocket PC momentum in these releases?

No, there shouldn't be any threat to the NEGATIVE momentum experienced by PPC over this last year. :roll:

mookie123

09-22-2002, 05:01 AM

product introduction several hours before quarterly finance report. hmmmm......

talking about good news bad news situation for Palm, but than again maybe not.

vagelis

09-22-2002, 07:04 AM

I've been a long time Palm OS user... 1997... but something happened Feb, 1 2002... I got a Maestro ppc, and last July 31, I switched to a T-Mobile Phone ppc. Once you go Pocket PC, you NEVER (really, maybe just for playing) GO BACK. The new devices, the new OS are playing catchup. And maybe by PalmOS 6, stuff might be interesting. But what we see NOW, is what it is. I smile reading and wish them good luck. I'll stick with PPC. Over the course of ~9 months, I've learned to appreciate the fine details, control and flexibility of the OS under PPC's skin. Yes, the PPC Phone is somewhat buggy, I still reset my PPC about once a day, but it's the best toy (oops, I meant tool) of its kind I've used... by far... I've played with Wizards, Newtons and palms since 1989...I've enjoyed them all... but I LOVE my PPC.... Good luck palm, thanks for the memories.... my ppc phone is ringing :)

09-22-2002, 08:42 AM

PocketPC on the other hand is capable of far more, multimedia especially, and will remain far more capable until ATLEAST Palm OS6 rolls around.

...but only if they fix the xscale joke. In the meantime there are a lot of new xscale devices and they all suffer the same problems when it comes to xscale.

1. you see the "turning wheel" a lot more
2. A lot of software runs noticably slower
3. PPC 2002 finaly has a slideslowplayer in ROM.......the mediaplayer
4. Screens, menu's etc. open up a lot faster on the "old" STRONGARM 206 MHz.

The new devices is one step forward (BT, WiFi etc) but also two steps back (xscale, overall performance).

I tested my conclusions on a Jornada 565, iPaq 3970 and a FSC Loox....not scientific but simple "user" tests.

Carel

mookie123

09-22-2002, 04:07 PM

I thought Zayo will put out a new display driver that will increase the 400Mhz speed by leap and bound?

Somebody already run Benchmark comparison.

http://www.pocketpctools.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=112

09-22-2002, 05:21 PM

According to some pictures at www.the-gadgeteer.com this PPC has a "turbo" mode which makes is run pretty fast. The reviewers also noticed a very bad batterylife when running this mode.

Nikhil

09-22-2002, 05:38 PM

I definately see my 3970 performing better than my 3835 performed (true, the 3835's performance sucked in the first place)...I rarely get the spinning wheel, and I find no need to close background programs. Apps run just as fast, and some games run slightly smoother. Granted, it's not the performance we had hoped for..

that_kid

09-22-2002, 06:36 PM

I'm very happy with my 3970 also, having gone through the whole Ipaq series this by far is the best. Having said that i think for Microsoft to really move ahead they need to fix the halfa** things they have in place now (ie activesync, connection mangler, pocket word, pocket IE & media player...wimp for short). The best pda is the one that can do what you need and maybe a few things more. It's all a matter of choice but the pocket pc could be better if some of the past issues where addressed rather than the pushed aside to make way for new features and services.

jlp

09-22-2002, 10:55 PM

Ed Hansberry

09-22-2002, 11:02 PM

Whether the XScale slowness on PPCs has to do with WinCE or not will soon be revealed by XScale PDAs running other OSes: whether Palm or Unix (like the Zaurus). OTOH if we see manufacturer of non PPC devices will not use XScale that could imply the XScale really is flawed.
Correct me if I am wrong, but MS has as much said CE 3.0 and 4.0 are not X-Scale optimized. Don't see where the controversy is at this point.

Kopiert

09-22-2002, 11:43 PM

Palm's "advantage" has always been simplicity. It feels as if they are now taking on the PPC head-on. If you want a hand held PC buy a PPC,it has been designed to be just that- with high levels of compatibility with the grey thing that sits on your desk. If you want the basics go with a Palm. The two devices started from different places, one as a replacement for your Filofax (remember those?) the other as a mini PC. Why (beyond brand loyaty) would you buy this over a PPC, which will do the same, only better.

To Vagelis I know at least ten people who have gone back to Palms. Palms still do the basics (date book,contacts) better than a PPC IHMO, its GUI is better, its battery life is better, and its size is better.

BTW, having seen the price of the new full-blown Ipaq, might low end lap tops now become competition?

Nick

Jonathon Watkins

09-23-2002, 01:06 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but MS has as much said CE 3.0 and 4.0 are not X-Scale optimized. Don't see where the controversy is at this point.
Well, some of kind of expected a 400Mhz device to be twice as fast as a 200 Mhz device. Silly - old fashioned thought I know :wink:, but we WERE expecting it........ Silly us, as some programs run slower. Oops. So - when will we see X-scale supported natively by the OS - really?

Jonathon Watkins

09-23-2002, 01:10 AM

That Zire really is a kids toy isn't it! Only 4 buttons so there is less to be confused by. :)

Very much agree with you Foo - what took them so long?

Janak Parekh

09-23-2002, 01:59 AM

Well, some of kind of expected a 400Mhz device to be twice as fast as a 200 Mhz device. Silly - old fashioned thought I know :wink:, but we WERE expecting it........ Silly us, as some programs run slower. Oops. So - when will we see X-scale supported natively by the OS - really?
The problem is that Intel indundated us as to the use of MHz as a performance metric. It isn't, when you work across generations or product types.

Like the old transitions of 386-486-Pentium-PPro and the new P4-Itanium transition, every new generation takes a couple years to optimize. This is no exception.

My suspicion is that CE 5 would support XScale as its primary target processor... unless there are other, preferable ARM variants out at that time.

--bdj

Rob Alexander

09-23-2002, 02:07 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but MS has as much said CE 3.0 and 4.0 are not X-Scale optimized. Don't see where the controversy is at this point.

As PDA Gerbil says, it's about expectations. When a new version of an x86 CPU comes out, there is always the issue of applications being optimized for it. In that architecture, a new CPU with twice the clock speed will run nearly twice as fast unoptimized and then will make additional speed gains as products are optimized for it. People learn that things work that way and do not expect software under such a new CPU to run at the same or slower speed. That's Intel's problem.

MS's problem is in their response. There would probably be little criticism of MS if an optimized PPC version was on the horizon, but it's not. X-Scale devices are being sold today, and they seriously need an optimized OS, yet MS has as much as said that they will not optimize the next PPC release for X-Scale but might do the one after that. In case anyone hasn't noticed the time between PPC versions, that's a long wait for the software to catch up with the hardware. If MS really does it that way, then by the time they optimize for X-Scale, we'll all be on to the next CPU after that.

So if you're asking what the criticism is then, at least from me, it's that the first PPC version after X-Scale is introduced should be optimized for it. They've had plenty of time to do so and, by the time it is released, virtually every PPC will be X-Scale. Now maybe they're working on it and we just don't know it, but every snippet of information we've received so far implies not. If that's true, then this is a problem and certainly worthy of some controversy.

Timothy Rapson

09-23-2002, 02:56 AM

[quote=PDA Gerbil]Well, some of kind of expected a 400Mhz device to be twice as fast as a 200 Mhz device. Silly - old fashioned thought I know :wink:, but we WERE expecting it........ Silly us, as some programs run slower. --bdj

The across generations stuff is nonsense. The 200 MZ Pentium with MMX still ran twice as fast as a 100 MZ Pentium, whether the MMX extentions were fully used by special software or not. Users expected the 400 MZ StrongARM to run at least twice as fast as the 200 AND to add the special power and MMC support features Intel promised to add. But it doesn't.

To one and all. My Clie NR70V benchmarks and runs programs, does everything about twice as fast as a 33MZ. The 33 Motorola 68000 does twice as fast, in general, as a 16 MZ.

This is also true of most all desktop processors. Intels StrongARM debacle is the exception. And a debacle it is. If the 400s really did run twice as fast as the 200s in the way other processors do, the PPCs would really have a leg up this Christmas. The fact that they don't puts this Palm right in the same performance territory as the $750 Ipaq 3900s. Oops, no WiFi and 64 meg.....well it at least is competitive until the StrongArm is fully supported by whatever sollutions come along.

This is also a big reason to know that Microsoft and Intel are working on this and they will solve it. Regardless of the silence (I expect to keep from causing current device sales to plummet) I expect X-Scales to run 90% of the time at full 400 MZ as promised by Christmas. Even at that, I expect most software to open a little faster on these 175MZ Palms than it does on even the 400 MZ PPCs just as it always has on Palms.

roberto_torres

09-23-2002, 03:01 AM

What I want to know is how Palm was able to make PACE (palm os 4 emulator for os 5 on arm) 3x faster than regular os 4 (can't find the article, though); when our PPC techis like Dan East, etc, can't make the Palm OS emulator that fast? And to top it off, they are using a slower TI 175MHz OS as oppesed to a SA or XS. I really want a PALM emulator just for the heck of it- they still have those great simple games, that nobody even bothers with on PPC because of the Power; everyone is making some awesome 3D game that sucks your system dry of resources...!

I want simple, 2D, 3 color games, like those old great calculators games (Pheonix, Fall Down, etc.) taht can run at full speed... But, that's just me...

PACE runs apps 3x faster because it is a simulator not an emulator. What PACE does is not emulating the 68k processor under the ARM one, PACE interprets system calls and runs native ARM implementation of them.

For example when date book wants to draw on the screen it uses the system call drawtxt(), this runs on the 68k processor, but when that application is run on an ARM device there is an ARM version of the drawtxt() function running at ARM speed. That's why the programs run 3x faster because the processor is about 3x faster.

About the one that sayd Sonys newer model will run Strong ARM, sorry to burst your bubble but that processor is not under the PalmOS ready program (only these can be used on the PalmOS 5). But the Xsacale is under that program.

Hope this info is helpful,

A PPC and Palm OS fan.

Timothy Rapson

09-23-2002, 03:37 AM

Janak Parekh

09-23-2002, 04:48 AM

The across generations stuff is nonsense. The 200 MZ Pentium with MMX still ran twice as fast as a 100 MZ Pentium, whether the MMX extentions were fully used by special software or not. Users expected the 400 MZ StrongARM to run at least twice as fast as the 200 AND to add the special power and MMC support features Intel promised to add. But it doesn't.
The comparison isn't valid - the MMX processor had almost the exact same instruction set and cycle per instruction mix metrics of the regular P5 processor; it just added the additional MMX instructions and reduced die size, which let it run faster and cooler. A better performance comparison is the P5-to-P6 one; Windows 3.1 ran horribly slow on a PPro, so much so that a P-133 or P-166 was comparable to a PPro-200 until people started moving to Windows 95, or preferably, Windows NT/Unix.

I do agree, as Rob pointed out, that both Intel and Microsoft screwed up in handling the XScale situation, in that they marketed poorly and allowed hype to build up, and they could have handled it better. One common lesson taught in Computer Engineering textbooks is that increasing the clock rate with already-fast processors doesn't give anywhere near a linear performance boost; one has to increase the pipeline depth for a clock rate, and as such certain instruction mixes that were efficient on previous processors doesn't work so well for future ones. Intel, and even more so AMD has done a remarkable job maintaining it for the PIII-to-PIV/Athlon transition, but this is not nearly the case with StrongARM-to-XScale. Intel/MS should have been raising warnings all along, before the units came out (didn't they play with the prototypes!?)--but I don't see the performance non-boost as surprising in retrospect per se.

--bdj

MauiPalm

09-23-2002, 08:33 AM

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020921-palmtungstent.jpg

My guess as to what the orange slice represents:

How much more market share will be lost to MSFT should Tungsten doesn't sell.

More like PPCs minority share that Palm OS5 is targeting.
Tungsten is alright.
Wait till Sony shows up with OS5, THAT will be something to wreckon with.

Take1

09-23-2002, 11:15 AM

Agreed. Sony's the threat here not Palm -- always been that way. Don't let the PIC 'iPAQ killer' rhetoric get to you -- Palm may have a fast machine, but it's still got the dang silkscreen crap and small, square screen that nobody really wants anymore. This is a high-end device and you can bet most of the buyers will be m5xx upgraders, but will someone using an iPAQ downgrade to the Tungsten? or wil they get something else, like a Zayo or the NR90 instead? I'd be surprised if they went with the T instead of the N or the Z.

roberto_torres

09-23-2002, 12:48 PM

[quoteAbout the one that sayd Sonys newer model will run Strong ARM, sorry to burst your bubble but that processor is not under the PalmOS ready program (only these can be used on the PalmOS 5). But the Xsacale is under that program.

Hope this info is helpful,

A PPC and Palm OS fan.

I think that was me and don't worry about bursting my bubble. I think we are both right. You point out that the Intel StrongARM is not yet fully certified, but I am sure the Intel StongARM has already been shown running OS 5 in mockup form. Motorola and TI got certified as 100% compatible with OS 5 first but Intel is on the job and will be certainly be ready by the time Sony ships a model. X-Scale for OS 5 is in the pipeline for 2 quarter of 2003 or thereabouts.

Either way, I don't expect anyone to be complaining about speed with a 4 meg OS running on a 175 MZ or faster processor, whether it is from Intel, Motorola, or TI. More is always better, but 175 will be plenty fast for what these models plan to do.[/quote]

Sony is a multimedia freak, with the 400Mhz Xsacale already certified (and Palm OS 5 full support for the processor, unlike PPC) I think Sony will go for the XScale.

By the way my dream handheld would be a Sony SJ 30 size device with 400Mhz processor and 320x480 screen, regardless of OS. Well maybe that will take some years :-(

About Tungsten T/ Oslo whatever: I don't see the need for the folding part, it just adds cost complexity (one more step to use the device) and thickeness(to hold moving parts). The clie SJ30 is just as short without having to use folding parts, Palm should have gone that same way.

Ed Hansberry

09-23-2002, 12:55 PM

kiwi

09-23-2002, 12:58 PM

By the way my dream handheld would be a Sony SJ 30 size device with 400Mhz processor and 320x480 screen, regardless of OS. Well maybe that will take some years :-(

same specs as my current dream machine... I really looked into getting a SJ30 but lack of OS 5 Upgrade path and decent loud speaker put me off.

b.[/quote]

Jonathon Watkins

09-23-2002, 03:16 PM

For my dream machine I want VGA (640x480) but I can live with thje rest of you guy's specs. :D Higher res is always good - as long as the font size etc. can be user selectable.

MauiPalm

09-23-2002, 05:50 PM

Sony is a multimedia freak, with the 400Mhz Xsacale already certified (and Palm OS 5 full support for the processor, unlike PPC) I think Sony will go for the XScale.

Oh my........what a BEAST that would be.
Tiny palm apps would open BEFORE the tap.

Actually I think they'll start slower, just enough to make purchasing a Tungsten look silly.
Say a 200 mhz chip, 32 meg ram and all the NR goodies in both a regular and flip twist form factor.

They GOTTA get some easier connectivity options though.
Web browsing on an NR with those specs would be sweet indeed.

Some time in 03' they will have that xscale 400 ready

BTW I thank everyone for not slamming me over my last post. I've since regretted it as it was like I was picking a fight. Got defensive over the original crack about market share. As this is a PPC site I should remember that it was only natural that lighthearted razing of Palm would happen.
My true feeling is to each his own, the devices appeal to different users. PPC is getting cheaper and smaller, Palms are getting more powerful, there will be more overlap. I do believe however that in the end Sonys appeal to both Palm and PPC users will make Sony very powerful in the long run.

Sony with an Xscale? Do you know the kind of game, video, photography, TV, music, comunication, oh and lest I forget, organizer, monster they could create?
They wiil show WHY the name CLIE was apprpriate.

I might LOSE productivity and not get ANY work done.

Jason Dunn

09-23-2002, 06:38 PM

roberto_torres

09-23-2002, 07:06 PM

As this is a PPC site I should remember that it was only natural that lighthearted razing of Palm would happen.

Thanks for recognizing that. If you're a big Palm fan, there are certainly sites more appropriate for you to be contributing to. :wink:

The fact that Palm OS es getting multimedia is also good for PPC.

PPC has always had the advantage over Palm in multimedia, for people wanting multimedia PPC has always been the only option.

Now PPC will not have that advantage, so Micro Soft will have to work to improove other aspects of the OS to beat up Palm. For example Microsoft wil have to put more muscle in pocket word to compare to Wordsmith and Docs to go. Also prices may get more agressive.

It is a win win situation for both OS. Imagine a world with only one major player. It would be like the days when only Palm Inc was available, a new model every year with almost the same specs as the old one and a very high price.

If Palm OS dies, PPC will get more expensive and innovation will go down.

MauiPalm

09-23-2002, 07:58 PM

As this is a PPC site I should remember that it was only natural that lighthearted razing of Palm would happen.

Thanks for recognizing that. If you're a big Palm fan, there are certainly sites more appropriate for you to be contributing to. :wink:

Oh I contribute at those sites a plenty. Often replying to comments such as,
My guess as to what the orange slice represents:
How much more market share will be lost to MSFT should Tungsten doesn't sell.

That contributed to my reaction. So used to making a comeback when there is a dig at Palm. :) I need to remember where I am.
As many names here are familiar at Palm sites, I figured no problem if I came here escpecially on a Palm thread.
My second post is more like the kind of contribution I'd like to make on a "Palm" thread.

Things I would never do at a PPC site.
1. "START" a debate over Over PPC vs Palm.
2. Go to a thread on a PPC device and argue that Palm is better.

But I'd like to be able to:
1. Say a positive comeback about Palm when someone makes a dig at Palm on a Palm thread, even though this is a PPC site.
(While I did apologize, I really dont think my 1st post was that bad, I meant it to be humorous as was the post I replied to. Forgot my smilleys)
2. Make meaningful contributions from "the other point of view" on a Palm thread.

If that is not desired here just let me know.
As a moderator you have the right to determine what is a desirable contribution to this forum. Sorry if I was over the line.

As a parting gift Look at what I just found:
204 bucks after rebate for an iPAQ 3835
http://www.techbargains.com/

Very tempting even for a PalmOS Diehard like me.
Just cracked the screen on my sony 760. Getting tired of my mono PalmV.

MauiPalm

09-23-2002, 08:11 PM

The fact that Palm OS es getting multimedia is also good for PPC.

PPC has always had the advantage over Palm in multimedia, for people wanting multimedia PPC has always been the only option.

Now PPC will not have that advantage, so Micro Soft will have to work to improove other aspects of the OS to beat up Palm. For example Microsoft wil have to put more muscle in pocket word to compare to Wordsmith and Docs to go. Also prices may get more agressive.

It is a win win situation for both OS. Imagine a world with only one major player. It would be like the days when only Palm Inc was available, a new model every year with almost the same specs as the old one and a very high price.

If Palm OS dies, PPC will get more expensive and innovation will go down.

Very insightful, and true. And it works both ways. If there were no PPC, there would be no OS5. No color, no Sony. There would only be smaller and slimmer mono Palms that had batteries that could last to 2004.

A Rex looking device with graffitti taking up half the screen.

So this Palm users thanks you all for buying your PPCs.

(OK I got off to a bumpy start, now have I redeemed myself? :) )

AhuhX

09-24-2002, 06:33 AM

(OK I got off to a bumpy start, now have I redeemed myself? :) )

No...

Grovel at our feet some more Palmie! :lol:

MauiPalm

09-24-2002, 03:03 PM

(OK I got off to a bumpy start, now have I redeemed myself? :) )

No...

Grovel at our feet some more Palmie! :lol:

LOL, you are merciless man.

I'm in a good mood so here goes:

I own a puny underpowered Palm. I am not worthy of even being here.
But I only seek "enlightenment" oh wise and tolerant PPC gurus.
Do not banish me for my ignorant outburst as I am but a misguided fool. A follower of the masses. Have mercy on my poor soul.

Jonathon Watkins

09-25-2002, 02:12 AM

You're a cruel and unusual man AhuhX. :wink:

Of course your're forgiven MauiPalm. Forgiveness is avaibile to anyone that asks. :D Now what was it we were forgiving you for? 8) (Oh yes - thy name).

MauiPalm

09-25-2002, 02:29 AM

You're a cruel and unusual man AhuhX. :wink:

Of course your're forgiven MauiPalm. Forgiveness is avaibile to anyone that asks. :D Now what was it we were forgiving you for? 8) (Oh yes - thy name).

Now how is my name so bad.
I live in "Maui," and the driveway to my Condo is lined with "Palm" trees. :wink:

Jonathon Watkins

09-25-2002, 02:51 AM

MauiPalm

09-25-2002, 03:12 AM

Now how is my name so bad.
I live in "Maui," and the driveway to my Condo is lined with "Palm" trees. :wink:
Of course - of course dear boy. 8) Now I'l go an sign on to a pro-palm site with a name like PocketPCbooster and we'll see how I get on then. :)

Ive showed how inocent my name is.
If Johnny Appleseed were around today, would you assume he was touting Macs? :wink:

BTW EVERY Palm site is bursting with PPC users.

Timothy Rapson

09-26-2002, 03:49 AM

[quote="BigDaddyJ
The comparison isn't valid - the MMX processor had almost the exact same instruction set and cycle per instruction mix metrics of the regular P5 processor; it just added the additional MMX instructions and reduced die size, which let it run faster and cooler. A better performance comparison is the P5-to-P6 one; Windows 3.1 ran horribly slow on a PPro, so much so that a P-133 or P-166 was comparable to a PPro-200 until people started moving to Windows 95, or preferably, Windows NT/Unix.
--bdj[/quote]

This P5 to P6 comparison is not what I recall at all. But, even the fact that someone would reach 3-5 years back for it shows how unusual it is. And saying a P166 is as fast running Windows 3.1 as a PPro200 is when the MZ is only 17% faster while the Xscale promised 100% faster is a lot different.

At any rate, we agree at the bottom line. MS and Intel or whoever is at fault made a big error.

Timothy Rapson

09-26-2002, 04:00 AM

[quote=Timothy Rapson]The PIII's running at 1.5GHz would blow away for most things P4's running up to 2GHz because Intel hadn't optimized the way old code was handled.

That is the question for me - how much optimization do MS and developers have to do and how much more work does Intel need to do?

And with the PIIIs and PIVs there was lots of warning that they would have to wait for optimized code. It was the same with MMC extensions. Intel has been claiming for almost two years that the XScales were magic. More speed, all the way up to 1000MZ, less power usage, MAGIC! Now, nothing. I think the poster above who thought the Zayo was simply overclocking the processor has the best explaination.

By the way, only a fool (ok, a fool or a rare person who have some very specialized early optimized software) would buy a P IV. If the OS and most programs are not optimized they run no faster than a PIII but the processor costs far more. By the time the software is generally out the P IV will cost half what it does now and one would have paid twice as much for it just to have it sitting in the case for 6-12 months? I don't follow such so closely, but I don't think there are many P IVs selling well. I don't know when they will be fully supported and selling well.

The bottom line is that Intel and everyone else knew that the P IV was a special case. They let us all think the X-Scale was a regular clock doubling and would run twice as fast out of the box.