Top selling PDAs at eShop

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://eshop.msn.com/search/topproducts.aspx?catId=275&pcId=190">http://eshop.msn.com/search/topproducts.aspx?catId=275&pcId=190</a><br /><br />How much things change in a year. Scott Savage sends us this link that has the top selling PDAs at MSN's eShop right now. Some of the results may surprise you.<br /><br /> 1. Sony Clie NR-70V<br /> 2. Toshiba e310<br /> 3. Sony Clie T665c<br /> 4. Toshiba e740<br /> 5. Palm M515<br /> 6. Palm M130<br /> 7. Sharp Zaurus SL-5500<br /> 8. Compaq iPAQ 3955<br /> 9. Sony Clie NR-70<br />10. Sony Clie T615c<br /><br />This time last year, the iPAQ would have been the hands down Pocket PC lead and Palm would have been the Palm OS lead. I wonder what this list will look like next year?

[avoglio]

So what do we have here ?

6 Palm OS
3 PPC
1 Linux

And design is the most important thing as Sony and Toshiba position themselves as great designed devices. Design is also the leading Palm (515).

After all, in the modern world people seem to look for something different ! Go for it designers ! :wink:

[JonnoB]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Toshiba running away with the prize in the end. Now you can get an e740 for about $400 USD net. How could one pass up that much power for the price?

[PPCRules]

I don't find these results very surprising, except maybe for the absense of low-end (i.e., monochrome) Palm brand units. I had thought that's what boosted their market share (in units) to where it is, despite not having any compelling offerings technology-wise.

[Ed Hansberry]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Toshiba running away with the prize in the end. Now you can get an e740 for about $400 USD net. How could one pass up that much power for the price?
That is great if Toshiba is making a profit and the retailer is too. Selling products at a loss or break even is no good for the product line long term. I don't know if they are making a profit or not, just saying low retail price doesn't mean a successful line.

[gmelfissg]

Hi Ed,

Do you know what success is ? It has one name Toshiba and i'll tell you why ?

1. It has passed form unknown to number #1 in the world for pocket pc selling growth.

2. It has better technology than any other pocketpc manufacturer (including hp/compaq). It has integrated wireless lan, multiple expansion slot on onde vice, vga and usb expansion in one device, 4 inch screen, addon battery of 3000amp. And so on and on. The only thing that ipaq has is screen (which should be temporaly). ?don't tak about sleeve everybody hate it.

3. Better price than the concurent except maestro which is a toshiba !!!

4. Less return than any other pocket pc.

So yes Toshiba has made an impact and a success of their pocket pc and just because of that people will now try to copy them because they are the standard to go with. Nobody need sleeves ... anything is availabel through compact flash and/or sdio.

In europe we know that ipaq is popular but in north america, it's more like a palm world and on the other side a toshibas world or soon will be.
Let people buy 400$ e740 and you'll what it will brign to toshiba and what they will do next for en encore, i'm predicting it's going to be very sweet, integrated and smalll .. can you dig :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[klinux]

My bet is 90-100% Japanese manufacturers e.g. Sony, Toshiba, and Sharp.

[fmcpherson]

Toshiba may do more to bring Pocket PCs into the mainstream than any other company, simply by selling a decent device at a good price. It makes you wonder that if Toshiba can do this in about a year, why couldn't any of the existing Pocket PC OEMS have done it a year or so ago?

Just think where we could have been if there were good &lt;= $300 Pocket PC 2000 devices....

[GadgetDave]

Toshiba may do more to bring Pocket PCs into the mainstream than any other company, simply by selling a decent device at a good price. It makes you wonder that if Toshiba can do this in about a year, why couldn't any of the existing Pocket PC OEMS have done it a year or so ago?

Agreed - they're doing now what they did to the notebook market 5-8 years ago - they're still the best notebooks on the market, too.

However, I think that everyone will be shocked and amazed when Dell's PPC hits shelves this fall ... and they might even do more. Dell doesn't jump until they have a good product, at a great price, and they believe they've got a market...

[Ed Hansberry]

1. It has passed form unknown to number #1 in the world for pocket pc selling growth.
First of all, it isn't the #1 selling Pocket PC. The iPAQ still reigns supreme in that. This is just what eShops sees.

If you are talking about #1 in growth, I don't give much credence to those types of statistics. For example, if the eDPDA sold 2 units in 2001 and this year I've sold 10 units, that is a 500% increase, easily the fastest growing PDA in the world, but it doesn't mean much.

That is not to take away from what Toshiba has done. Great product. Great for the PPC platform. But given the recent IDC reports we've seen, Toshiba has a loooooooooooooong way to go to topple the iPAQ as the big seller.

[ThomasC22]

That is great if Toshiba is making a profit and the retailer is too. Selling products at a loss or break even is no good for the product line long term. I don't know if they are making a profit or not, just saying low retail price doesn't mean a successful line.

I'm not sure how true this is. I believe that, just like in cars, PDA buyers usually trade up with their second purchase so losing money on your low end model (if you can afford to do so) isn't that bad a thing.

The problem with this theory is that its good for the platform and not necessarily the manufacturer so Toshiba may be doing themselves a disservice. But I do have to say, the way things seem to be going I wouldn't be surprised (if they keep the low price point) to see the e310 dethrone the iPaq as the best selling PDA.

That is not to take away from what Toshiba has done. Great product. Great for the PPC platform. But given the recent IDC reports we've seen, Toshiba has a loooooooooooooong way to go to topple the iPAQ as the big seller.

Well, maybe not as long as you think, but yes, I'll agree that they aren't there yet. But what people also have to remember is that Toshiba hasn't been in the PPC business all that long (not counting the Maestro, which I don't) and there growth taking that in mind is explosive.

[Ed Hansberry]

The problem with this theory is that its good for the platform and not necessarily the manufacturer so Toshiba may be doing themselves a disservice.
I said long term. The platform gets no long term benefit if its big players lose money and drop the platform.

[Ed Hansberry]

Well, maybe not as long as you think,
Uhm... yes. Exactly as long as I think. See http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3469

Toshiba has to sell an additional 331,000 units to catch up to HP, or a 331% increase over their current sales.

[mccollin]

I'm glad this thread got started... I wanted to tell this story, and this is a perfect place to tell it.

I walk into Best Buy today. I thought I'd ask their cell phone salesman how T-Mobile coverage complaints compared to other carriers. I'm awaiting my PPCPE and am nervous about moving from Verizon to T-Mobile. I wasn't impressed with the answer, so I politely went about my business looking at what accessories they had.

As I'm walking away, I notice that a man who had been browsing the PDA display asked, "Can I get some help here?". That peaked my interested. This is a paraphrased (from my memory) conversation that then happened.

Customer: "What is the difference between all of these.... PocketPC, Palm, etc.?"
Salesrep: "PocketPC and Palm are pretty much all the same."
Customer: "Well I'm looking at these two machines.. Toshiba (310) and HP."
Salesrep: "They are all the same... same as the Palms... some have more stuff, some have less."
Customer: "The Toshiba says it has 32M of memory... (he get's cut off by the salesrep)".
Salesrep: "That doesn't matter... you can upgrade the memory on all of them. They can all be upgraded very easily."
Customer: "Well I'm buying this for a gift for someone, so I want to make sure I get the right on.".
Salesrep: "The Toshiba is a better brand.".
Customer: "OK, I'll get that one.".
Salesrep: he goes away for a few minutes and then returns, "We are out of stock on that one. Do you want to get the HP.. they are all about the same?".

I had to leave. I feel really sorry for this guy. Palm and PocketPC are the same? You can upgrade the memory on all of them?

The thing that occured to me is that one of the big problems with the PDA market is that there is very little consumer marketing. You don't see any TV commercials, no mainstream press, nothing aimed at the consumer. If you don't come cruising into a PDA store looking for one, you wouldn't know they exist. So, only the geeks know anything about them. There is no brand differentiation. The consumer probably assumes it's like buying an HP PC or a Toshiba PC. They are all the same, so who cares... who's got the bigger drives and RAM? This is why I think the next 6 months will be VERY interesting. If the rumors are true, and Dell enters the fray... they do mainstream advertising. If they do market the product to the consumer and help them understand it, then they may take over the market.

One thing that's real interesting about the chart in this thread is that Compaq is largely a non-player.

[JonnoB]

I said long term. The platform gets no long term benefit if its big players lose money and drop the platform.

This is true, but Toshiba tested the waters with the 570 and then came on full-speed with the 310 and 740 at low prices. They may be attempting to buy marketshare away from others... but I think it is possible that having been really good at lowering cost. The iPaq and others were first generation Palm size Pocket PCs. They haven't lowered prices in their second generation platforms (actually raised them in some cases)... I think there is plenty of room to move downward.

If Toshiba is successful and profitable, this could be very good for the Pocket PC market and bad for Palm.

[PPCRules]

If Toshiba is successful and profitable, this could be very good for the Pocket PC market and bad for Palm.
It will be very interesting to see how the [few that there are] manufacturers price the OS5 models. Seeing recent e310 pricing (albeit closeup prices) and the rumored Dell price point, I think Palm platform would have been better off if it had stayed with the Dragonball and OS4-style OS.

[GadgetDave]

This is true, but Toshiba tested the waters with the 570 and then came on full-speed with the 310 and 740 at low prices. They may be attempting to buy marketshare away from others... but I think it is possible that having been really good at lowering cost. The iPaq and others were first generation Palm size Pocket PCs. They haven't lowered prices in their second generation platforms (actually raised them in some cases)... I think there is plenty of room to move downward.

And Toshiba does seem to be a better bang for the buck - at least in Denver, the e740 can be had for about $500-$550 with a 32Mb card included; I haven't seen the iPaq 3955 for less than $599 (after a rebate). And what don't you get with the iPaq? 2 slots and WiFi. The screen is great, but not worth that much ...

From what my corporate toshiba rep says, they're not making much, but they're making money on the 310 and 740. As long as it's a net +, it's not bad for them ... But again, I think sub $400 is doable for a high-end device. And sooner than we think.

[Rirath]

mccollin: I work at the local Staples as an Electronics sales guy. Although it sounds like that sales guy was probably an idiot, most customers are too. Try going into even a little detail and their eyes just glaze over the majority of the time. You kinda get used to just giving short general answers. At any rate, that sales guy probably had no idea about PDAs.

I was thinking of picking up an Ipaq H3970 at the end of this month... but that Toshiba E740 looks too good to be true! 802.11b, SD & CFII, 400mhz, it's everything I could ask for. Sorry to ask a probably simple question, but the Intel PXA250 processor... will that run ARM based programs? Any good/bad news about it? If so, looks great. (Edit: After some digging, they seem to be Xscale based... I guess that's not so bad.)

One last thing, all this talk about $400... care to give a link to where? :)

[gmelfissg]

Hi Ed,

Don't worry in about two years nobody will remember the ipaq because i'm predicting it's going to be a Toshiba pocket pc world. They have only started 1 year being in the market and the growth their enjoying will make first for them to sweep the market in north america and then in europe. Believe me it's going to happen because ipaq are old and too expensive for most mainstream user and HP/Compaq is unwelling to give up their big profit margin. Sometime you have to be bright and i would rather sell 10 unit at 400$ then 3 at 600$.

Viva toshiba to bring pocket pc to consumer.

Giuseppe Melfi

[spursdude]

i have no idea when toshiba will take over as pocket pc king, but i firmly believe it will happen.

with just 4 pocket pc's released the U.S., toshiba has brought oh-so-much never before seen innovation that compaq could never bring in their years of pocket pc's.

toshiba has brought:
-the slimmest pocket pc (e310)
-the lowest retail price pocket pc (the e310, correct me if i'm wrong)
-the only pocket pc with built in 802.11b (e740)
-the pocket pc with the largest screen (e550g)
-the only pocket pc with a built in graphics chip (e740)

not to mention dual slots on all their models, except the e310, because a CF slot on an e310 would not make it the slimmest pocket pc out there.

not to dis ipaqs - they are solid models, but the 3900 series prices are too high. the innovations compaq has brought are the nice screen and remote control capability. i admit that the nice screen is truly amazing. as for the remote control....eh.....this isn't a crucial function that will help advance the pocket pc industry.

[mookie123]

In two years hopefully it will be some no name generic PPC made by some vague giant electronic manufacturing in Taiwan.

Everything will be highly integrated with across the board standard plug that even Radioshack will carry peripherals, battery or odd and ends PDA needs.

Nobody would care if it is HP, or Toshiba or who else. they are just sticker on top of the devices.

[Rirath]

I doubt brand will ever be 'just a sticker'. I doubt I'd want it to be. A Pocket PC isn't a toaster... it's a handheld computer. Each company brings unique and exciting features to their own product.

[Ed Hansberry]

I had to leave. I feel really sorry for this guy. Palm and PocketPC are the same? You can upgrade the memory on all of them?

ACK!!!!! :crazyeyes:

This is where I whip out my Pocket PC and insert myself into the conversation and my wife ducks behind a counter somewhere pretending not to know me.

[Paul P]

2. It has better technology than any other pocketpc manufacturer (including hp/compaq). It has integrated wireless lan, multiple expansion slot on onde vice, vga and usb expansion in one device, 4 inch screen, addon battery of 3000amp. And so on and on. The only thing that ipaq has is screen (which should be temporaly). ?don't tak about sleeve everybody hate it.

Because Toshiba chose to integrate 802.11b and CF doesn't mean that they have better technology. I applaud Toshiba for making that decision, and wish HP would follow suit. However, HP/Compaq decision making stems from financial reasons, not from actual feasibility.

3. Better price than the concurent except maestro which is a toshiba !!!

You have to pay a premium for a higher quality product.

4. Less return than any other pocket pc.

From reading these forums, I would say otherwise.

[johncj]

Everybody in this conversation seems to be missing the obvious. Eshop is representative of the consumer market. It is hardly surprising that Toshiba and Sony rule this segment (although it is a little surprising how far Palm has fallen). Compaq/HP rule the corporate market. Sony will probably never make inroads there, but Toshiba might. If Toshiba is able to keep building on their success with each model, but they may yet challenge HP in the enterprise, if only because they still have notebook mindshare. If Dell gets into the game, I would expect to start seeing some real competition on both fronts.

[DaleReeck]

iPaq may fall into the same trap that Palm did. Palm always assumed they will always be on top and that they will have a crushing market advantage, therefore, innovation isn't as important. That is not the case anymore though.

The same may be true for iPaq. iPaq has had the top PPC for a while and they always assumed they will have the biggest market share. So, after their initial good idea of sleeves (OK, I hate sleeves too, but it was a good innovation like it or not), they really haven't done anything to distinguish themselves. A nicer screen is about all they've done recently that's standout-ish. However, if that Ipaq-phone version is for real, that's a good start to shake things up :)

[Take1]

I agree that Toshiba's done more for the PocketPC platform than any other manufacturer lately. Compaq SAVED the platform, but became lazy and really didn't innovate much -- they did make a solid device with the best audio and the only dust-free refective screen on the market (in my experience). I'm expecting this is a make or break time for the iPAQ -- either they reduce the size of the form factor or give you something for keeping the bulk (like a 3500mA battery or dual CF slots with SD as well).

The e310 proved you could make a PPC thin as Palm AND get superb battery life -- they failed on ClearType and audio on that device, however. For those who care not a wit about eBook reading and listening to audio, the e310 is a great device.

I'm holding on to my 3835 unitl at least next year to see what will happen to the screen resolution and size of the next gen. PPCs. After getting an NR-70, the PPC screen seems rather low-rez and tiny 8O . Hopefullly we'll see PPC up the ante and take on Sony in the graphics department. Audio quality on ALL the PPCs need to be like that in the 38xx and 39xx series -- it's incredible! MS should standardize audio quality so no more ugly e310 incidents arise ever again. A minumum volume and bass output level should be required as well! (rantings of an audiophile PDA owner, sorry). My guess Toshiba might be the first to make a higher rez PDA and fix the crappy sound they've inflicted on their customers (the Maestro was pretty good on audio).

HP is charging WAY TO MUCH for their devices. HP has always done this -- pricing the 548 the same as the iPAQ back in 2K, and the 568 is STILL way overpriced considering the problems and discontinued status. If they keep this up, all we'll have is Japanese PPCs to buy. Seems lilke the American PDA companies are shooting themselves in the foot with slow R&D. What ever happened to the spark that created the iPAQ?! How can they get it back?!

[Tim Welch]

If they keep this up, all we'll have is Japanese PPCs to buy. Seems lilke the American PDA companies are shooting themselves in the foot with slow R&D.

Japanese PPC's??? You could always buy an iPaq - it's manufactured by HTC, a Taiwanese company.

Tim Welch