Pocket PCs banned in Greece!

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top">http://news.com.com/2100-1040-956357.html?tag=fd_top</a><br /><br />"The Greek government has banned all electronic games across the country, including those that run on home computers, on Game Boy-style portable consoles, and on mobile phones."<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020904-ppcbanned.jpg" /><br /><br />Pocket PCs, with contraband in their ROM in the form of Solitaire, a core part of the Windows operating system, would be subject to the ban. It is unknown at this point if Microsoft will remove Solitaire from the next Pocket PC or provide ROM upgrades with the popular handheld game removed. It is not really known if this is possible. Several times during the Microsoft Anti-Trust Trial, the courts tried to have Solitaire removed claiming it gave Microsoft an unfair advantage over its competitors that developed addictive card games, but failed each time. "We tried to remove SOL.EXE from the Windows operating system to demonstrate it could be done" said Jeff McQuirdy of OldCardGames.com which makes its own version of Solitaire "but when rebooted, the OS would give a bugcheck error. I guess it really is a critical part of the OS."<br /><br />Thanks to Robert Litchfield for the link and the boneheads in the Greek legislature for passing this law. Now those of us in the United States can breathe a sigh of relief that we only have some of the <a href="http://www.ahajokes.com/stupid_laws.html">dumbest laws on the books</a>, but not <b><i>the</i></b> dumbest. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif" />

[Rirath]

The Greek government introduced the law in an attempt to prevent illegal gambling. According to a report in the Greek newspaper Kathimerini, Greek police will be responsible for catching offenders, who will face fines of 5,000 to 75,000 euros (about $4,980 to $74,650) and imprisonment of one to 12 months. "The blanket ban was decided in February after the government admitted it was incapable of distinguishing innocuous video games from illegal gambling machines," the report said.

Thousands of tourists in Greece are unknowingly facing heavy fines or long terms in prison for owning mobile phones or portable video games. ... The law applies equally to visitors from abroad


:evil: Agreed... the dumbest law I've ever heard of. Guess we can only hope this is canceled in time? Not that I ever plan on visiting Greece, but I don't want this giving other countries ideas. Not only is it unbelievable they can't tell Mario from a gambling machine, I wonder how long it's going to be before they ban all gaming period? That game of tag could be illegal! Quick, arrest them!

If someone from the US ever gets a huge fine or arrested for this, there had better be some serious noise made.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I just saw the same news on ZDNet and was sending out emails to my colleagues who all travel internationally.

I still can't believe this is true. There's only one article regarding this, but it was written by ZDNet UK journalists. Can anyone find any supporting information regarding this?

If this is true, this is definitely unbelievably whacked. Supposedly they were trying to crack down on on-line gambling... sorry I don't see the connection...

Ekkie

[Eciton]

If this is true, my faith in the intelligence of legislators has taken another blow. With the extent to which gaming has permeated our lives, this is up there with the prohibition, or suddenly - and compulsorily - switching the country to a strict Islamic state. Phones, PCs, handhelds are all effectively banned; jobs will be lost; Greece will drop off the radar of a decent proportion of the net community. I can't believe the Greek government could do this to their own people! Exactly how much damage is illegal gambling doing, anyway? This seems like punching yourself *really hard* in the face to kill a fly on your nose. ;)

[Guy Van Houtte]

This proves only that reality can be funny and sad at the same time.

It also proves that IT people should rule the world :lol:

[sponge]

So much wrong.. not only is the whole solitare issue stupid, and wrong (they can really take out the game.. you can't expect me to think solitare is a critical part of the OS.. sounded like a ROM CRC error caused by removing the game. Or a "last minute change")

These laws never last, I remember some country trying this before.

And I've seen many sites report about it.. it's most certinely true.

[renz]

So ... no Solitaire ... no Windows ... I wonder how long the Greece economy can live with 90% of their PCs without an operating system :wink: IF this is real, it is a goot shot "to humiliate the nation in front of the entire world", as 'The Register' puts it.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/26939.html

So how are the Olympics going to happen w/o Windows? Is Chess really dangerous? Does a Gameboy make you an enemy of the state? Questions over questions ...

[Mark (NL)]

If this is true, my faith in the intelligence of legislators has taken another blow. With the extent to which gaming has permeated our lives, this is up there with the prohibition, or suddenly - and compulsorily - switching the country to a strict Islamic state.

hmmm if you try to comment something, please make sure you know what you are talking about! Greece isn't Islamic at all! The main Religion is Greek Orthodox; it might be a neighbor of Turkey, which is Islamic but it is a world apart too!

Ok to comment on the actual article, this never will stand a chance in European courts where freedom of speech and information is a big issue! We probably will see a lot of cases being brought to the European Union Courts, which is a waste of time and money of all European people! This kind of ban is so stupid that I didn’t believe the articles I read about it at first... Will be interesting to follow what will happen the next few months though, especially when foreign people on vacation get fines or will be imprisoned for having a mobile phone with them on their vacation (or kids get robbed from their Gameboy by custom officers)! Imagine what a blow this will bring to the tourism there.

[nliokal]

I just couldn't stand not to comment on this. I should mention that I'm a greek citizen and I'm realy ashamed because of the whole situation.

The problem was that many internet cafe in Greece were using their computers for illegal gambling and the government tried to do something about it.

It sure didn't take the right decision when introducing this law. I don't think it will stand too much though. It was a very quick decision.

Consider this. Computer games may be banned but buying computer games from computer stores isn't illegal. So you can buy a game but you can not use it.

All newspapers in Greece are having articles against this and it shouldn't be long until this law is withdrawn or change to ban software that really has to do with illegal gambling and not solitaire!!!!

Give me back my pride in front of the world please...

[Xaximus]

"We tried to remove SOL.EXE from the Windows operating system to demonstrate it could be done" said Jeff McQuirdy of OldCardGames.com which makes its own version of Solitaire "but when rebooted, the OS would give a bugcheck error. I guess it really is a critical part of the OS."

Is that a joke?? My God, are there really people this gullible living on the same planet as me above the age of 4? Or did Microsoft just pay these guys off to say that and keep their fingers crossed?

[Eciton]

Mark - I wasn't saying that Greece *was* Islamic - I was saying that this law could have changes as fundamental as the US / UK / anywhere else bringing in prohibition or changing the entire nation's religion :). Sorry for the poor wording.

[Dr. Smooth]

"We tried to remove SOL.EXE from the Windows operating system to demonstrate it could be done" said Jeff McQuirdy of OldCardGames.com which makes its own version of Solitaire "but when rebooted, the OS would give a bugcheck error. I guess it really is a critical part of the OS."

Is that a joke?? My God, are there really people this gullible living on the same planet as me above the age of 4? Or did Microsoft just pay these guys off to say that and keep their fingers crossed?

Have a look at oldcardgames.com. Then see how legitimate the quote seems.

[Pony99CA]

Consider this. Computer games may be banned but buying computer games from computer stores isn't illegal. So you can buy a game but you can not use it.

So it sounds like possession of a computer game isn't illegal, just the playing of it. If that's correct, Pocket PCs would not be illegal merely because they contained Solitaire. What would be illegal is actually playing Solitaire.

It's still kind of stupid, but not nearly as bad as it could be.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

Mark - I wasn't saying that Greece *was* Islamic - I was saying that this law could have changes as fundamental as the US / UK / anywhere else bringing in prohibition or changing the entire nation's religion :). Sorry for the poor wording.
It wasn't that poor. I certainly understood that you were drawing an analogy with other countries.

Steve

[rlobrecht]

Have a look at oldcardgames.com. Then see how legitimate the quote seems.

This just pushes me to some search engine, roar.com.

[scottmag]

Brings to mind one of my favorite quotes:

"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
- Mark Twain

Although we now know that the US Congress does not have exclusive rights to worldwide stupidity.

Scott

[Eciton]

Hey, the EU and UK administrations have a pretty good shot at the stupid crown too...

http://www.stand.org.uk/

We're copying your awful rights management legislation and *making it worse*! Good job!

[Mark from Canada]

8O A prime example of government not understanding technology and acting in ignorance :shocked!:

[cparekh]

I'm headed to Greece on Monday. I was planning to take my T68i, but maybe I should reconsider. It has games on it. Also, my Maestro, and my Laptop all have games. Does this mean I need to leave them at home. SURELY the cost to international business that this law creates FAR OUTWEIGHS any saving that occur from preventing online gambling. If this law's scope is as great as the zdnet article seems to claim, then Greece is crippling its economy just to stop gambling.

Seems absurd.

[Eciton]

Exactly :)

Just like travelling to a very strict Islamic country expecting to sunbathe with your wife in her bikini - you now can't expect to go to Greece on business with any modern mobile phone or computer product. Does the Palm OS Graffitti game count, do you think? :)

OK, I'll stop with the Islamic comparisons now. Just the first thing that came to mind! :)

[j1guitar]

is it april already? :cry:

[Eciton]

Huh? :)
:?

[Sslixtis]

I agree this has to be an April Fools joke. No one can be THAT stupid, can they? Ok, they are politicians after all, maybe they can be. I really don't see this lasting though, the greek populace just won't stand for something this stupid for long. :lol:

[Eciton]

Duh! I get it now :oops:
Must be the end of a long day again :)

Since it's been reported on so many reputable sites, and confirmed by individuals, I don't think it's a September-fools joke. Unless it's a conspiracy... ;)

[Arne Hess]

Find the translation of the law here:

http://gameland.servegame.com/lawenglish.htm

It's not a joke at all:

LAW NUMBER 3037 - 30 July 2002
GAMING PROHIBITION

The President of Greek Republic
We issue the following law which was voted by the Greek Parliament

Article 1
Game categories

Article 2
Game prohibition

Article 3
Internet cafes

Article 4
Criminal sanctions

Article 5
Administrative sanctions

Article 6
Report of confirmation of violations

Article 7
Authorization

Article 8
Tax returns

Article 9
Maintained and transitive orders

I wonder if this law contravene with EU law!!!

[Kirk Stephens]

I thought this post was a joke when I first read it. Disturbingly it is not. :?

[Ed Hansberry]

I thought this post was a joke when I first read it. Disturbingly it is not. :?

Ok, just so everyone knows, the post was a bit tongue in cheek.

Pocket PC's are NOT banned.
Greek law does prohibit gaming.
Solitaire is not part of the core OS
I have no idea what oldcardgames.com is. I made it up.

Sorry my sense of humor was so subtle. Too subtle it would seem. :?

[Pony99CA]

I thought this post was a joke when I first read it. Disturbingly it is not. :?

Ok, just so everyone knows, the post was a bit tongue in cheek.

Pocket PC's are NOT banned.
Greek law does prohibit gaming.
Solitaire is not part of the core OS
I have no idea what oldcardgames.com is. I made it up.

Sorry my sense of humor was so subtle. Too subtle it would seem. :?
Now you know why humor should be left to the professionals. :lol:

Seriously, mixing a real news story with a joke can cause real trouble. The humor would have been just as funny (I think) and more obvious if it had been not treated as part of the story, but done more like this:


What's next? Will Pocket PCs themselves be banned for containing Solitaire? Will someone from some site like oldcardgames.com join the anti-trust suit claiming Windows' inclusion of Solitaire violates the law by hurting the market for addictive card games?

Given all the humor, I assume the following part is also false:


Several times during the Microsoft Anti-Trust Trial, the courts tried to have Solitaire removed claiming it gave Microsoft an unfair advantage over its competitors that developed addictive card games, but failed each time.

I never heard anything about this while following the trial, but it had enough believablility in our litigious society that I wondered....

Steve

[Jonathon Watkins]

Come on guys - it was pretty obvious that Ed was being ironic (that's kind of subtle joking for all you americans :wink:).

www.Overclockers.com has got a lot more info on the Greek story - including a long letter from a Greek webmaster.

http://www.overclockers.com/tips00103/ ("Greeks and Geeks")
http://www.overclockers.com/tips00104/ ("More Greeks and Geeks")
http://www.overclockers.com/tips00106/ ("Greeks and Geeks III")

[amigean]

:?

hmmm... i am not sure who's dumb here....

the report that computer (or handheld) gaming of all sorts is prohibited in Greece is totally innaccurate. I am really wondering how Zdnet and TheRegister got involved in such a farce! :evil:

myself being Greek, i had a quick look on all major Greek newspapers, and search engines....they do not mention anything on a UNIVERSAL ban on all games... what they do mention is a ban of software that may facilitate gambling, but permitting gaming for entertainment purposes...playing cards is also permitted, as long as it does not involve gambling (so no worries for Solitaire).

the ban is enacted only on PUBLIC computers (i.e. computers used by the public) that may be situated in a public or private dwelling.

I went ahead and tried to find the actual law....it is dated 30th of July and it is quite clear that people with PDAs and mobile phones are in no way prevented from playing games (there is no explicit mention) - and even if the definition of gaming suuplied does apply to them as well no individual could face legal action for such conduct (only the owner/manager of the dwelling where the games are played could face prosecution)

it appears the whole matter has been blown way out of proportion, with people warning friends and panicking about the long term global effects of such a ban - what were you people thinking anyway? - so what's next?! maybe a State Department travel advisory!? Please be serious....

so please everyone try not to engage in a mass hysteria - Greece is no banana-country, it is stable democracy, where the elected parliament enacts laws that represent the people's feelings, it is amongst the 20 most developed states in the world and a member of the EU (with the legislation of which it must adhere)

I am confident that PocketPcThoughts will officially recognise the true version of events, in line with the integrity that characterises it. :wink:

[amigean]

my guess is, that someone with an interest (e.g. someone owning a gambling place) in the whole thing (some ulterior motive) has been misguiding global opinion by providing an incomplete translation of the law in English....I compared the original to the translation and selected sections of the original have been ommitted....

i am personally surprised how so many independent sources fell for it (in their drive to provide news first) and that nobody bothered to double-check.

so this is where everyone goes DOH!

[Ed Hansberry]

From the law:
---------------------
Article 1
Game categories
---------------------
According to notion of the commands of the current law:
a. Mechanical games are those, that depend on one's muscle force.
b. Electrical games are those, that depend on electrical mechanisms.
c. Electromechanical games are those that depend on electrical mechanisms and the use of one's muscle force.
d. Electronic games are those, that depend on both electrical-electronic mechanisms and software.
e. Entertainment technical games are those, whose result depends exclusively on the ability and skill of the player, and are used solely for entertainment.

The category (e) also includes all card games which had been characterised as "technical" games, according to the statement of law F.E.K A21.

Ok, PDAs and computers fall under D, no? Buttons and whatnot are mechanisms, and it is obvious what software is.
---------------------------------------------
Article 2
Game prohibition
----------------------------------------------
1. Operation and installation of any game of type (b), (c) and (d) of Article 1, including computer games, placed in public places such as hotels, cafeterias, organization halls and in any other public or private place, is prohibited. (emphasis mine)
There goes the PDA with many of the action games.

It is a stupid law.

[Xaximus]

Come on guys - it was pretty obvious that Ed was being ironic

Well I feel somewhat dumb that I got caught in it, but at least I wasn't the only one :roll:. With such a bizarre story, it was hard for me to tell where the seriousness stopped and the tongue-in-cheek began. I'm happy for you that you found it obvious however :D.

[amigean]

I repeat ; the translation of the law you have at hand is not only incomplete, it is also innaccurate.

the distinction between public and private refers to the ownership of the dwelling where machines need to be OPERATED AND INSTALLED. (installed meanining physical installation, Greek=egkatestimeno). Emphasis is the word AND. meaning it must fulfil both criteria. You do not install a PDA (physically) to a place, so it does not fall under this law...

And anyway the person responsible and liable for prosecution is the MANAGER of the place, not the person who operates the device.

it is a con of massive proportions - i really regret not having the time to provide you with an accurate translation of the text (i'm a phd student), i will however mail both zdnet and TheRegister. I have mailed representatives of the Greek online press (who by the way have no idea that gaming of all sorts is prohibited in their country) and I am sure they will have the time to put things in their right place

[cpoole]

I repeat ; the translation of the law you have at hand is not only incomplete, it is also innaccurate.


I live in the province of Saskatchewan in Canada. About 15 years ago, the government decided to invest in some software to translate their laws into French... Canada is a bilingual country... Saskatchewan was not a bilingual province. They bought into a product called Gigatext which was supposed to translate the laws for them. In the end, they found that the translations were also incomplete and inaccurate. This experiment cost the tax payers about 5 million dollars. I assume that new software may make a better job of translating languages but the most difficult of all has to be translating laws.

[Rob Alexander]

Man, I was just in Greece in July. Talk about dodging a bullet! :2gunfire: To think if they'd lost my luggage at Athens (as they did) just a few weeks later, and if I pulled out my iPaq to note the details of who I was talking to (as I did), I'd have been tackled, cuffed and dragged off to jail. 8O Okay, on my next trip to Greece (wonderful people, BTW), I shall hide away my iPaq in a double-bottom suitcase, only bringing it out late at night to use alone in my hotel room. :silly:

[juni]

I wonder if they will have gaming police:

You are engrossed in a counterstrike game late at night when there suddenly is a knock on the door....men dressed in black raincoats will drag you out, you are transported to a basement somewhere, subjected to interrogation and finally locked in a cell - never to be heard from again.

;)

[NLS]

OK I feel sorry for the stupidity of our legislative authority. (yes I am Greek)

But let us NOT confuse things that much.

Some people give the image of a 3rd world country when they talk about Greece without having the slightest idea (and THEN coming to Greece, some tourists -initialy- even treat us like some kind of prehistoric aboriginals they have under some kind of commonwealth - embarasing THEMSELVES of course).

True they voted for a stupid law. Not the first time (and not the first country). Don't think that it EVER was active or anything though!

OF COURSE people have their T68i or whatever, can play in the metro or bus, you can play your solitaire, your Q3 or whatever as much you like and yes your kids can play their gameboys (silent mode please) in hospital waiting rooms.

COME ON PEOPLE!

The law IN PRACTICE will never be active, it might even change, or just be a tool in the hands of authority when a net cafe or something starts using the old versions of MAME (the one with the gambling games).

Gambling itself is not really prohibited. It is just that the state wants control (and money) over it. So you either have a paid permit to have gambling in your shop, or they can bust you.

Can you build a casino with no permit whatsoever in the U.S.?

---

Talking about stupid laws. Motorcycle riders have faced the worse. Once apon a time, there was a law mentioning that riders should CARRY helmets. Yes the verb was carry. So riders never wore their helmets and just had them on the bike. :-) Of course the law changed. A few months ago, a law was introduced that if someone wears no helmet, THEY EVEN TAKE HIS BIKE! This law still won't stand for long as there is a E.C. law that states that ONLY ONE punishment should be applied for braking the law (here we have two: pay fine AND they get the bike)...

We have democracy here though. When ALL people don't want something, it soon changes. (this doesn't apply to having better retirement benefits, less inflation etc. - but that is another story hehehe)

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

To both NLS and amigean,

I personally appreciate the clarifications you both are providing. I was certainly looking for clarifications b/c the story was very difficult to believe.

HOWEVER, please don't tie our paid caution to the story to our pre-bias for or against Greece (NLS) and please don't flame us for ignorance (amigean).

This was a story that was 1) posted by a respectable publication, 2) backed up with a English translation of law, and 3) even further confirmed by a Greek citizen on this board who stated that the Greek newspapers were writing furiously about this.

Now, it appears that all three sources may have been misinformed, but until proof can be provided that this law as stated is incorrect, it's much safer to be cautious than to assume, regardless of the country involved.

After all, Singapore is a civilized country as well, but who would have guessed that chewing gum was outlawed?

[Paul P]

What happens if you get caught using a PALM?

[JvanEkris]

May i remind everybody that EVERY EUROPEAN COUNTRY has a law like this. I worked for the certification-authority that made the technical backgrounds for these laws in the rest of europe.

Every european country forbids the installation of gaming machines in public areas, unless an explicit permit (casino's etc) is obtained. The Greek Law is a bit wide in the definition, but the AND in installation is the key. As i see it, an internet cafe could be a "cover" for an electronic casino, so it is explicitly mentioned.

Jaap

[Jonathon Watkins]

Well, any country that can put innocent British planespotters in *Jail* on Spying charges has got to have it’s legal sanity questioned. :roll: See below for more details:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1666649.stm Greece's strict reputation 'known'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1689237.stm Plane-spotters await case review
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1682520.stm 'Plane-spotting? We have other things to do'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1672636.stm Greek politics and the UK prisoners

(There’s lots more of this on the BBC news site). The Greeks seem to take a narrow minded and literal view of the law – even if it is stupid. THAT is why the gaming law is so dangerous.

The law as it seems to stand (from English translations anyway) indeed seems to make gaming illegal. Now that may not be the intention, but if it’s in black and white then it’s enforceable. Laws should be more precise and exact than that.

[amigean]

first of all, i'd like to make clear that my intention was not to flame anyone and i apologise if my style was a bit... abrupt. :roll:

I simply implied that people have been victims of misguided information, directed by someone with ulterior motives. I highly respect the audience of this site, as well as its administrators. :wink:

As for the previous post regarding the British plane spotters, please don't go there. This case was 'created' by the british media and was an organised attempt to portrait Greece as 'the planet of the apes'. :lol:

When you are in a foreign country you ought to respect this country's laws. the British planespotters were not immediately arrested (although the British press did not bother to mention this) - they were cautioned three times in three different military facilities. When someone tells you something is illegal and you keep doing it, i believe you are in full knowledge of the implications of your actions.

Greece has strict laws regarding its military aircraft facilities for a purpose; Greece is situated in a region with heightened tensions, where previous cases of photographic spying have been confirmed. It is easy to mock what we don't understand, but laws are (usually) there for a reason.
However, Greek authorities are not generally strict in enforcing the law - you will generally be cautioned a few times before you get arrested for anything- we're a laid back people, at least give us this!

Thanks for your understanding....and btw ....this is a pocket pc forum :lol:

[Ed Hansberry]

The law IN PRACTICE will never be active, it might even change, or just be a tool in the hands of authority when a net cafe or something starts using the old versions of MAME (the one with the gambling games).
But the article said there have already been fines enforced. :?:

[NLS]

Yes Ed,

In 2-3 such cases:

The law IN PRACTICE will never be active, it might even change, or just be a tool in the hands of authority when a net cafe or something starts using the old versions of MAME (the one with the gambling games).

[Jonathon Watkins]

As for the previous post regarding the British plane spotters, please don't go there. This case was 'created' by the British media and was an organised attempt to portrait Greece as 'the planet of the apes'. :lol:
I have NO intention of going to Greece thanks. (Don’t like olives :) )

So the Greek authorities arresting a group of harmless middle aged plane spotters, holding them in *Jail* for 2 months, putting them on trial, finding them guilty of espionage and trying to jail them for 3 odd years is the fault of the British media?????? 8O Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. :roll: The Brits were invited there by the Greek authorities and the first time they were warned was when they were arrested. The authorities were not laid back in any way.

All details of Greek planes are with Turkey and all Other NATO allies anyway. Getting the serial numbers of 20 year old helicopters (whose details are publicly available at many different internet site) is obviously going to bring down the Greek government!!! 8O (Irony again btw).

Thanks for your understanding....and btw ....this is a pocket pc forum :lol:
No, this thread is in an OFF-TOPIC forum. :D

[NLS]

{personal attack removed}

Of course I don't really care if you ever come to Greece or not, but let me tell you there are more things here than olives.

Anyway, I remember the incident with the plain spotters.
Seems you have the story a bit twisted. They were arrested yes. Of course they where arrested. They were "spotting" in a marked military airport. They were taking photos. What did you expect?

They did not stay in jail for two months and were not found guilty. UK embassy took care of that.

If I did the same in a UK military airport, things would be waaaay different, thank you. (and this would be the proper too)


All details of Greek planes are with Turkey and all Other NATO allies anyway. Getting the serial numbers of 20 year old helicopters (whose details are publicly available at many different internet site) is obviously going to bring down the Greek government!!! icon_eek.gif (Irony again btw).

{personal attack removed}

1) Get real.
2) Don't visit - ever. We eat civilized people, torture criminals and live in caves.

[Jonathon Watkins]

NTL – please relax. I am not attacking you. The personal abuse is unnecessary. I just made the point that this is not the first time that the Greek Government has been heavy handed. Oh – and people HAVE been arrested as the BBC news story below shows:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2238242.stm Greeks fight computer game ban

............The first case of its kind will come before the Greek courts next week following the arrest of two people who allowed gamers to play the popular online game, Counter-Strike.

They face fines of 150,000 euros (£95,000) and up to 12 months imprisonment.

.............If the letter of the law is enforced, the union said the next stage would be to ban the selling of games and legal action against Microsoft to remove games from the Greek version of Windows.

But officials say they have no plans to ban the import of consoles or to take legal action against Microsoft's operating system.

The gaming community has accused the government of taking the country back to the 1970s when individuals were arrested for playing cards at home.

Along with owners of Greece's many internet cafes, it is determined to make its voice heard.

Greek gaming site www.gameland.gr has launched an online petition against the ban and has had 14,000 signatures so far.
A gaming tournament planned in Greece this week has been relocated to Oslo.

And the plane spotter WERE found guilt by the Greek courts. They are in the UK at the moment pending their appeal as this story shows:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2003722.stm Plane-spotters demand fair hearing

They have to go back to Greece later this year to appeal against their ‘Guilty’ verdict. They were held in jail for over a month and have been sentenced to three years in jail. They are appealing against this at the moment and have been allowed back to the UK.

The group of Britons and two Dutchmen were arrested at an air show in southern Greece in November last year.
Last month eight of the 14 were sentenced to three years' imprisonment, pending an appeal.
Six others were also found guilty of aiding and abetting, and given one-year suspended sentences.
Those found guilty of espionage were:
 Paul Coppin, 45, of Mildenhall, Suffolk
 Peter Norris, 52, of Uxbridge, west London
 Antoni Adamiak, 37, of London
 Andrew Jenkins, 32, from York
 Graham Arnold, 38, from Ottershaw, Surrey
 Gary Fagan, 30, from Kegworth, Leicestershire
 Patrick Dirksen, 27, from Eindhoven, Netherlands
 Frank Mink, 28, from Den Helder, Netherlands
Those found guilty of aiding and abetting are:
 Lesley Coppin, 51, Mildenhall, Suffolk
 Michael Bursell, 47, of Swanland, near Hull
 Michael Keane, 57, of Dartford, Kent
 Steven Rush, 38, from Caterham, Surrey
 Christopher Wilson, 46, from Gatwick, West Sussex
 Wayne Groves, 38, from Tamworth, Staffordshire

NTL – it was an AIR SHOW – you know – were people go to look at planes and take photos etc.!!!

The Greek authorites have just jailed two Pakistanis for plane spotting as well. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2193095.stm
Greek court jails Pakistani plane-spotters

A court in Greece has convicted two Pakistani men of illegally taking pictures of the Elefsina military airport outside Athens.

The two, Ahmed Nazir and Haibat Khan, who are resident in Greece, were given five-month prison sentences, suspended for three years.

Both men denied any sinister motive, saying they wanted the tapes as a souvenir.

A BBC correspondent says the court appears to have acknowledged that they were ignorant of the implications of their plane-spotting hobby.

Earlier this year, a group of British and Dutch plane-spotting enthusiasts were sentenced to jail terms after making notes at a military airfield.

In that case, the court imposed sentences ranging from one to three years for espionage-related offences.

They were released pending an appeal.

No-one is attacking you or Greece by saying (truthfully) that some of the ‘laws’ that Greece is enforcing seem rather...... odd. Can’t you see that?

[amigean]

heh ... so you don't like olives? why is that? You know they make you live longer 8)

some facts:

the british tourists were held for just over a month and then relased on bail. They went back home to England only to return for their trial, where they were found innocent. (and not jailed for six years as PDA Gerbil states).

(See how easy is to blow a matter out of proportion simply by exagerating?)
They were never found guilty - let alone jailed for 6 years as you claim- . It may have been a mistake to charge them with spying (a charge that was finally dropped for a misdemeanor charge) and it was the result of some stupid Greek prosecutor being overzealous - but justice does work in Greece, and they were eventually released. They were never invited by the Greek authorities, the trip was organised by some kind of plainspotter club. They were warned twice outside the "Tanagra" military field and once outside the Kalamata field, before being arrested (info that BBC strategically ommitted). I am sorry but this looks to me like someone looking for trouble.

However strange it may sound to someone from an post-imperialist background, Greece has the most technologically and operationally advanced air force in Europe, (that's why its participation in the European Rapid Reaction Force is vital) as we devote a ridicoulusly high proportion of our GDP in defense spending. Greece and Turkey, due to their regional rivarly are Lockheed Martin's best customers (after the US military) and the British tourists were photographing state-of-the-art fifth generation F-16 fighters commisioned last year. As you very correctly point out, the debate was not on photographing the planes themselves (as their configurations are known through NATO reports), but rather the facilities in which they were kept, which may compromise their security.
You may not know it, but virtual dogfights occur on a daily basis over the Greek islands and close to Turkey's coast. On average 5 Greek fighter pilots die every year, while escorting Turkish jets away from Greek airspace. Therefore, you can understand that aircraft security is paramount in environment like this.

I regret the Greek people do not have the priviledge of leaving in a peaceful and secure environment like the one enjoyed by the British, but the latter can at least make an effort and understand the special circumstances surrounding the issue.

I do not have anything against the British, i love the people - some of my best friends are British - but you just can't take your domestic mentality with you in your trips and expect it to apply throughout the world.

I do not understand why bars close at 11:00 in England, 8O or why i cannot drink my beer off a bottle :( in a British street, i do however respect the choices of the people who devised the law.

Cultural misunderstandings will occur, and it is only natural- what is not natural is using particular events in order to reach conclusions about a country or a nation as a whole.

Referring to PDA Gerbil; my friend i do not want to engage in a never-ending debate on the issue so please lets end it here. :D , and lets focus on our common love for PocketPCs. :-)

[Ed Hansberry]

Ok, that is enough. No attacks on people or Greece. It is a dumb law - that much is clear, but the US and other countries have their fair share of asinine laws, as I linked to in my orginal post. PDA Gerbil, NLS. Please take a break from this thread, ok? :beer:

[NLS]

{post removed - I've asked nicely now....Ed}

[NLS]

Ed my post did not attack anyone! In fact it started "now that I am more calm"!

Second, I DID write it before you wrote your "note" and it was posted seconds after!

:evil:

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed my post did not attack anyone! In fact it started "now that I am more calm"!
Insulting someone's intelligence is a personal attack. If you have any other questions, take it to private messaging. Thanks.

[j1guitar]

oh dear :agrue:

[CoffeeKid]

I regret the Greek people do not have the priviledge of leaving in a peaceful and secure environment like the one enjoyed by the British

&lt;snip>

Yeah, those IRA folks were so peaceful and secure for the last 30+ years... :roll:

Mark

[Jason Dunn]

Thread locked - someone always has to have the last word... :?

[Ed Hansberry]

Ok, I unlocked it because there is more news, and this time it is good. So play nice or it'll get locked again.
:2gunfire: :onfire:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/2249656.stm

Greek court ruled the law unconstitutional. :lol:

What is even more disturbing is this isn't the first time this has happened. "Greece's gaming community has accused the government of taking the country back to the 1970s when individuals were arrested for playing cards at home."

Man oh man. Sounds like the US and some of the legislatures bringing up prohibition again - and believe me, some nutcase State Senator brings it up every few years in one of our grand states. :roll: