View Full Version : It's Like Deja Vu All Over Again
Brad Adrian
08-20-2002, 01:17 AM
<a href="http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,54612,00.html">http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,54612,00.html</a><br /><br />In a gaffe that comes frighteningly close to one purpetrated by Hewlett-Packard a couple of years ago, Palm is in the position of trying to defend its claims about the color resolution of their m130 device. Following precisely in HP's footsteps, Palm advertising has been giving the impression that the m130 can display 16-bit graphics, or images with up to 64k colors. The truth is that the device's processor SUPPORTS 16-bit graphics, but the screen is actually a 12-bit screen capable of only 4,096 colors.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/adrian/doh.jpg" /><br /><br />"[Palm Spokeswoman Marlene] Somsak said it was an 'honest mistake.' The handheld was supposed to include support for 65,536 colors and 'in the implementation of various components and technology -- together reduced the number of colors in our expectations.'" <br /><br />This is almost EXACTLY the story that unfolded when HP made the same mistake. The screen was *supposed* to be 16-bit, but somewhere between planning and implementation the specs got derailed. This could be a PR nightmare for Palm. I remember all the petitions and threats of class action suits against HP that were circulated two years ago; it was not until the 56X models were launched that HP was finally able to live down its 12-bit blunder.<br /><br />Don't the people at Palm read the newspaper?
this is the second time something like this has happened...another company gets dinged, and then years later the same thing happens to palm. people seem to be more forgiving with palm than others though.
"Palm, announced that it had reached a settlement with the US Federal Trade Commission, which had accused the company of hyping its products with misleading advertising claims. In ads that ran in newspapers and magazines Palm stated that its PDA come with built-in wireless access to the Internet, e-mail and business programs":
http://www.ciol.com/content/news/repts/102030713.asp
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/onyou...-03-07/palm.asp
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020306/1/2kfrl.html
didn't hp offer to give everyone their money back? i think they did, i have a link below. if that's the case palm may want to consider that as well:
http://www.zdnet.com/supercenter/stories/review/0,12070,195202,00.html
i think i have vu deja'...i've never been anywhere or done anything.
cheers,
pt
marconelly
08-20-2002, 01:34 AM
Well, the difference is, HP screwed up royally: 12bit = only 4096 colors (and they advertised 16bit = 65536 colors) In Palm's case, the difference is almost negligible and definitely not visible with a naked eye, when watching photos and such.
PBennett
08-20-2002, 01:37 AM
this is the second time something like this has happened...another company gets dinged, and then years later the same thing happens to palm. people seem to be more forgiving with palm than others though....
pt
Perhaps that's because they don't expect much from them to begin with...
(Sorry, couldn't help it :twisted: )
jdhill
08-20-2002, 01:44 AM
Well, the difference is, HP screwed up royally: 12bit = only 4096 colors (and they advertised 16bit = 65536 colors) In Palm's case, the difference is almost negligible and definitely not visible with a naked eye, when watching photos and such.
While it is still being discussed, it appears that Palm's claim about the 58,000+ colors might be bogus. It sounds as if they are talking about the use of dithering to give the appearance of more colors. If they are in fact using dithering to arrive at that number, then their claim is not factually correct. They have yet to say exactly what the color depth is. If it is 12 bits, then it can only display 4,096 colors. Dithering would allow you to convey the impression that it displays more colors by changing the color of adjacent pixels.
If it is indeed 12 bit color, then Palm should offer the same full refund that HP did.
jpmierau
08-20-2002, 01:45 AM
Perhaps that's because they don't expect much from them to begin with...
It's true, they don't. Ironically, that lack of expectation is both the most FRUSTRATING thing about Palm... and their saving grace in the marketplace.
Plus, it's about the only thing left of the fabled 'zen of palm'....kinda sad really.
rubberdemon
08-20-2002, 02:00 AM
I'm really curious how a company (two companies now) can promote a product so inaccurately - can you really not know what type of screen your device is using? Or is there such a disconnect between marketing and engineering that the people who actually know what the products are made of don't communicate with the people who write the PR and ad copy?
Brad Adrian
08-20-2002, 02:00 AM
While it is still being discussed, it appears that Palm's claim about the 58,000+ colors might be bogus. It sounds as if they are talking about the use of dithering to give the appearance of more colors...
I wonder the same thing. Maybe some graphics experts can help here, but it seems to me that *if* 12-bit is the reality, then the 58k number is really just a bit of a numbers game.
TBone
08-20-2002, 02:39 AM
From discussions at PalmInfoCenter, and from what I've been able to figure out, the 58k is referring to the dithering process. Otherwise, the use of the phrase "color combinations" doesn't make much sense. In any case, it is a 12-bit screen, according to several comparisons that have been made by graphics programmers for the device.
here are some pictures:
http://www.pocketloft.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=60
that looks like 4,096 colors (12 bit color to me)...
also, here's the page from palm support they put up...
>>
Information on the Palm™ m130 Handheld Color Capability
Palm is updating its characterization of the m130 handheld’s color capability.
The Palm(TM) m130 handheld was introduced in March 2002 and immediately earned an outstanding reception from customers and reviewers for its brilliant color and compelling price. Palm said it could support more than 65,000 colors.
Palm is updating its statements of color capability, because it has since learned that the combination of color technologies it employed deliver about 58,621 color combinations, an approximate 11 percent difference.
With support for 58,621 color combinations, we believe the Palm m130 offers the widest range of color combinations among color STN (super-twisted nematic) products made by brand-name companies.
The color technologies Palm employed in the m130 handheld to deliver text and images include frame-rate control and dithering techniques. (Frame-rate control turns pixels off or on to deliver a specific shade of color. Dithering uses a group of adjacent pixels to convey a composite color.)
Palm apologizes to customers for the communication error regarding the range of color capabilities of the m130. We are in the process of informing our customers, and changing our marketing material to reflect this new information.
>>
they're going to need to offer refunds or upgrades, not sure why they haven't said that yet. maybe testing the waters.
Brad Adrian
08-20-2002, 03:01 AM
...Otherwise, the use of the phrase "color combinations" doesn't make much sense...
That's what I was wondering. That term seemed like a really strange choice of words, so I take the 58k number to represent "simulated" colors. I also tried to visit the Web site of the person who originally posted the screen comparisons, but, as you can imagine, the page wouldn't load due to all the traffic.
mookie123
08-20-2002, 04:02 AM
How do they get the 58,000 or so combination anyway?
given 4096 color pallet with 4 adjacent pixels wouldn't it give even higher number?
I read something on PalmInfoCenter explaining this...
16 bit = 65536 colors = 32 x 64 x 32
?? bit = 58621 colors = 31 x 61 x 31
now this has something to do with the shades of a color, not sure though...
Also, I think I read somewhere that this was due to the screen resolution limited to 160 x 160, that it was impossible to display that many colors at one time or something like that. And I also read an article a while back when the HP thing unfolded; they said if something like this ever happened on a Palm, there would be no way to tell due to the low screen resolution.
Also, I think it really is true 12 bit as I believe it uses the same screen in the Treo 90.
Well, regardless of all the math and what not, this ought to knock off another 25 cents off palms stock price. One blunder after another for them, and soon their stock wont just have 25 cents knocked off, itll be at 25 cents like I used to always talk about. Amazing, I never thought they could actually get this close. 8O
marconelly
08-20-2002, 05:19 AM
"I read something on PalmInfoCenter explaining this...
16 bit = 65536 colors = 32 x 64 x 32
?? bit = 58621 colors = 31 x 61 x 31 "
Well, yes,
32 = 2^5 (5 bits for Red component)
64 = 2^6 (6 bits for Green)
32 = 2^5 (5 bits for Blue)
5+6+5 = 16 bit
2^16 = 65536
31x61x61 is devised by some kind of approximation, as with dithering you can't have the exact color matches - only close values that trick the eye more or less successfully.
If the screen really is 12 bit (and it's pretty obvious that it is), that's pretty crappy how Palm advertised it.
it's hitting the wire now...
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020819/tech_palm_1.html
"the company is offering an apology and an explanation to customers, but no rebate or recall" said palm spokesperson.
cheers,
pt
Ravenswing
08-20-2002, 11:08 AM
Well, the difference is, HP screwed up royally: 12bit = only 4096 colors (and they advertised 16bit = 65536 colors) In Palm's case, the difference is almost negligible and definitely not visible with a naked eye, when watching photos and such.
Um, if Palm claim 16 bit, and actually it's 12 bit, and HP claimed 16 bit, and actually it's 12 bit, I fail to see the difference.
The difference between the two resolutions is quite marked if you look at something with smooth graduated colours on it. Having said that, it took 2 years for someone outside HP to spot that there was a problem. Both the 3xx and 4xx series had the same thing wrong with them and no one noticed throught the (short) life of the 3xx machines (including myself).
Oddly, the thing that shows it up most is flesh tones. Maybe there wasn't enough suitably scaled porn around back then :wink:
I actually benefitted from HP's cock-up, their refund let me buy an iPAQ. So I have warm, fuzzy feelings toward them (NOT). I doubt Palm will do the same, because I think Palm believe that the bad publicity won't harm their user base. Sadly, I suspect ther're right.
Ed Hansberry
08-20-2002, 12:46 PM
"the company is offering an apology and an explanation to customers, but no rebate or recall" said palm spokesperson.
That will change. At a minimum they should give everyone a bubblegum scented face plate. :lol:
Brad Adrian
08-20-2002, 12:57 PM
Both the 3xx and 4xx series had the same thing wrong with them and no one noticed throught the (short) life of the 3xx machines (including myself).
I'm not familiar with those devices. When were they offered? Were they the first to claim 16 bit screens?
Ed Hansberry
08-20-2002, 01:03 PM
Both the 3xx and 4xx series had the same thing wrong with them and no one noticed throught the (short) life of the 3xx machines (including myself).
I'm not familiar with those devices. When were they offered? Were they the first to claim 16 bit screens?
Wasn't the 300/400. It was the old Palm-sized PC 420/430 and the 54x series Pocket PC. AFAIK, the 300 series were strictly Handhelds and I don't think there was a problem with their screens.
Jonathon Watkins
08-20-2002, 01:04 PM
"the company is offering an apology and an explanation to customers, but no rebate or recall" said palm spokesperson.
That will change. At a minimum they should give everyone a bubblegum scented face plate. :lol:
COOL! I'll buy a palm just to get me one of those babies. :wink: :lol: :wink:
I do agree though that palm 12 Bit= HP 12 Bit.
All Palm users should get a refund to compensate them - not just the owners of this particular device. :wink:
Ed Hansberry
08-20-2002, 01:21 PM
All Palm users should get a refund to compensate them - not just the owners of this particular device. :wink:
{chuckle} "Hey! I cannot own anything from a company that did this to a small group of users! I want my money back on my Palm Pilot 1000!"
We need to get this smiley changed to putting a PDA in the microwave. :lol:
:microwave:
Timothy Rapson
08-20-2002, 01:31 PM
It is odd, that with all the sites I haunt, I have to come to a PPC site to find the best post about this Palm debacle.
Just for fun:
What happens when the M130 users find they can't run PocketWord, or use Compact Flash cards?
What about when they can't figure out how to get the grafitti area to drop down so they can see the full screen? Or the MP3s they had on their PPCs won't play?
Where did the other 6,915 colors go? Did and Enron accountant take them?
Did HP take them to put in old Jornadas to make up for their debacle over the 12 bit 548s?
Did Rapson make them up?
School starts this week for kiddies here in Illinois. What kind of math are they going to grow up with if this sort of slop keeps up?
If you give every M130 buyer three more to make up for the error, could they clue them together and run Clie software at 320 by 320 with 58k color?
If Palm shoots itself in the foot with an OS 5 debacle of this sort, this Fall will the blood show in true color?
JF in Detroit
08-20-2002, 02:13 PM
This reminds me of the thread we had going a few days ago about copying people's intellectual work. Palm is making weak justifications in the name of greed, just like the folks who rip-off programmers and artists :changes: . No honor.
PPCRules
08-20-2002, 03:02 PM
Perhaps that's because they don't expect much from them to begin with...
It's true, they don't. Ironically, that lack of expectation is both the most FRUSTRATING thing about Palm... and their saving grace in the marketplace.
Plus, it's about the only thing left of the fabled 'zen of palm'....kinda sad really.
This is so true, it bears repeating ... again.
And it's not just the screen, but the whole device (multi-tasking, file system, etc.). I've held that the first release of OS5 would be a big disappointment to Palm users, but in this light, these people will be so wow'ed compared to what they have been putting up with that they just might eat it up. It's when it's placed up against PPC (what Palm has been targeting) that (first release) OS5 will look pretty weak.
Jonathan1
08-20-2002, 04:53 PM
Man you can feel the love in this thread. ;)
Palm is like any other company on the way out. What choice do they have other then to put out spin on their products? Nothing is new here. The only news is that this is a rehash of the problems HP faced 1 or 2 years ago. The difference being its Palm's turn now.
Personally I'm surprised that, unlike HP, Palm is not offering refunds. HP showed a level of integrity that is usually unheard of in a company by offering a refund for anyone who wanted it. This could be partly due to them trying to avoid a messy legal battle that they would have ended up loosing in the end anyways but still a nice gesture. Then again Palm isn't doing as financially well as HP. I'm guessing they just don't have the cash to offer a refund.
This is a PR nightmare pure and simple. They can put as much spin as they want on it but at the end of the day they don't have 16 bit.
What a mess. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to how deep Palm is in it at this point? I'm thinking around the hips.
more from wired..
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,54647,00.html
cheers,
pt
This isn't a big deal for Palm. The Average Joe consumer will probably never even here the news that their device is only 12 bit. They could careless.
In HP's case, only some enterprise users and enthusiasts bought the Jornada at that time. There was a very low market for the average joe consumer to buy a 600 dollar jornada.
Now if this had happened on say a highend clie, or maybe a Palm m515, I could understand because people payed good money for it, but with the m130, no one really cares.
Plus the resolution sucks anyway, it's not like a pocket pc where you can clearly tell the diference between the two, on a palm, it is difficult because of the horrible resoltuion.
PPCRules
08-20-2002, 07:09 PM
I was just re-reading the links and realized what you all may have realized all along, but I missed on first reading:
"We want our customers to know we made this honest mistake," Somsak said. "We truly believed the m130 offered 65,000 color combinations. We want to offer an apology."
I thought they had a purchasing/marketing mismatch, where marketing thought it was a 16-bit-color display, and were promoting it as such. But, in reality, everyone knew it was a 12-bit-color display. Someone had just done the math wrong on the "color combination" marketing spin, chosen all along to sidestep the actual hardware capability.
So, really, there is no big deal, other than the slight of hand they had used all along. If everyone had been thinking "appearance of 65,000 color" rather than "65,000 colors", the change to "appearance of 58,000 color" wouldn't really matter. Noone can pin anything on them, unless they ever missed the "combination" qualifier someplace.
So, really, there is no big deal, other than the slight of hand they had used all along. If everyone had been thinking "appearance of 65,000 color" rather than "65,000 colors", the change to "appearance of 58,000 color" wouldn't really matter. Noone can pin anything on them, unless they ever missed the "combination" qualifier someplace.
on the web site as of yesterday it said 65,000 colors and the printed stuff said 65,000 colors. this may cause pda makers to change all their literature...
size: few inches or so
weight: several ounces or so
colors: appearance of 58,000 colors, kinda
standby time: couple days or so
cheers,
pt
Jonathon Watkins
08-20-2002, 08:34 PM
size: few inches or so
weight: several ounces or so
colors: appearance of 58,000 colors, kinda
standby time: couple days or so
:lol: LOL - very good! :lol:
Personally I think Palm are in it up to thier necks. :morning:
They need to get their mojo back PQD if they are to survive.
Ed Hansberry
08-20-2002, 08:37 PM
They have updated their site:Palm is updating its characterization of the m130 handheld’s color capability.
The Palm(TM) m130 handheld was introduced in March 2002 and immediately earned an outstanding reception from customers and reviewers for its brilliant color and compelling price. Palm said it could support more than 65,000 colors.
Palm is updating its statements of color capability, because it has since learned that the combination of color technologies it employed deliver about 58,621 color combinations, an approximate 11 percent difference.
With support for 58,621 color combinations, we believe the Palm m130 offers the widest range of color combinations among color STN (super-twisted nematic) products made by brand-name companies.
What a joke. Notice the wording?
"Palm said it could support more than 65,000 colors."
"because it has since learned that the combination of color technologies it employed deliver about 58,621 color combinations."
That is not an 11% difference. Those color combos are from a 12 bit 4096 color screen. How many combos can you get from a 16 bit 65K color screen? Millions? They blew it and now they are lying again, just like they did with the faulty M500 cradles. How anyone can trust them is beyond me. :roll:
marconelly
08-20-2002, 09:10 PM
Um, if Palm claim 16 bit, and actually it's 12 bit, and HP claimed 16 bit, and actually it's 12 bit, I fail to see the difference.
Yeah, yeah, I know now. I didn't know back then when I posted that first post. 58651 or whatever sounded more like a crippled 16 bit mode than an 'enhanced' 12 bit mode.
Jonathan1
08-20-2002, 09:18 PM
Hmmm So if Palm resources are that low that they can't honor a recall what happens if a real problem occurs in a Palm in the future. Better hope your Palm doesn't have a defect.
taxus
08-21-2002, 12:00 AM
I was a daily reader of Palm InfoCenter when the subject came up a couple of months ago. Since I'd been thinking of buying a Palm m130 or a HandSpring Treo 90 (HandSpring has always said its screen is 12-bit) at the time, I followed the discussion closely for a few weeks.
The day the discussion began, I went to the Palm web site, and compared the specs for the m130 and the m515 (or maybe it was the m505).
The m515 was reported as having a 16-bit color screen.
The m130 was reported as supporting more than 64000 colors.
Notice the different wording? I remember it very well, since it sounded suspect to me.
A couple of weeks after the debate began raging (and I do mean rage, people were stubbornly and hotly disagreeing on the issue, some Palm zealots being adamant and refusing to really consider Anonymous' evidence), I went back to the Palm web site to look at the same specs.
They then both said the same thing: "screen: 64K+ colors". All other text was the same, no other change than that.
I believe Palm is lying when they admit an "honest mistake", I believe they knew all along, have been aware of the debate, have been avoiding the issue, but finally couldn't avoid it now that a major media group (Wired) has decided to ask questions about it.
I've been a loyal Palm user for 5 years, but I'm rather happy I switched to PocketPC a month ago, considering Palm's record with the Sudden USB Death Syndrome affecting the m505 and some m515, and now this. I'm far from impressed with Palm now.
Besides, PocketPC 2002 isn't so bad. :wink:
Konrad
08-21-2002, 03:29 AM
For Palm, there is only one solution to this mess. Palm must shift its image completely and become a niche market product that will appeal to businesses as the BMW of PDAs.
How to do this?
Palm, as the original PDA and creator of the popular OS, seems to have slumped into making identical carbon copy plastic gizmos that pale in comparison to the gizmo features of Sony's PDAs and the superiority of Pocket PCs. What Palm does have is a reknown name - everybody still thinks all PDAs are "palms." Palm must use this brand-recognition to their advnatage and stop creating crap that will flood the marketplace and destroy their image - instead, it should create on eor two "main" products made of stainless steel and using glass screens that would be very high quality - something to match the "quality" that is the quantity of Palm software out there. Crowned with a shiny Palm emblem, these devices would be built of the best pieces - the speed of their prcoessor or the version of their OS would simply add up to the sum of Palm - universal compatibility. They would be about as significant as the total number of watts in a Bose system (who cares?) Businesses would use Pocket PCs; Businessmen 8) would couple their leather coats and briefcases with a slick Palm "Model K." Their would be special red carpet, crystal wine glasses "Palm Shops" to repair your Palm. Twenty years in the future, when your iPAQ is sitting in some basement collecting dust and your handspring's casing has cracked, your Palm will still be good as new - because Palm would mean quality.
Either that or bankruptcy :twisted:
Brad Adrian
08-21-2002, 02:39 PM
...it should create one or two "main" products made of stainless steel and using glass screens that would be very high quality - something to match the "quality" that is the quantity of Palm software out there...
I disagree completely. I think that the Pocket PC will become known as the premier, fancy-schmancy devices and Palms need to focus on being the best idiot-proof device around. To produce premier devices would be a complete deviation from where Palm is today; if they focus on creating workhorse devices, they're halfway there already.
Scott R
08-21-2002, 04:44 PM
I remember back when this happened with HP. IMO, the situation is different and the impact much smaller. Don't get me wrong...there's no excuse for Palm to have overlooked this and they should offer something to their customers as a result. That said, IMO, the impact is different than the HP situation for the following reasons:
1) Back when HP mis-advertised their PDA's as 16-bit, the PPC shoppers were weighing the pros/cons of the various devices very carefully. Each device had different strengths and weaknesses and every little feature helped to push that device over the edge in the minds of a particular consumer. With the m130, there wasn't much to compare to. At $250 for a color Palm, it pretty much owned that price sector.
2) At $250, the m130 appeals to the non-geek crowd. Most of these folks will never hear that the device isn't really 16-bit and for those that do (all you geeks better sit down for this one) most won't care. Certainly not enough to threaten a class action lawsuit.
3) Along the lines of #2, the m130 at $250 is considered by the target audience to be a "color PDA". This is different than the HP which was a "full-blown multimedia device". When you're a multimedia device the difference between 12-bit and 16-bit is important. When you're "just a PDA", the difference is relatively minor.
That said, I'm actually beginning to think that the situation here is worse than the HP one in terms of deception. Whether or not HP knew from day one that their PDA was limited to 12-bit, we may never know. But the Palm situation looks much more sneaky. Specifically, taxus' comments are interesting. He claims that the original marketing material claimed the m515 as 16-bit color and the m130 as offering "more than 65,000 colors." These two devices came out at the same time, so why the different wording? He claims that shortly afterwords, the m515 wording was changed to be consistent as "more than 65,000 colors." That hints at the possibility that they knew right from the start that it wasn't a 16-bit device but worded things "creatively". Of course, this is speculative.
Much worse, however, is their recent "explanation" of the problem in which they claim that the screen offers "58,621 color combinations" where they count dithering as a valid method of creating a color combination. This is extremely deceptive. It allows them to then claim that the difference between the previous claim and the "actual" limitation is merely an 11% difference. I think that Palm has dug themselves into a deeper hole here and this should cause an uproar among the Palm community. They should've been forthright and stated that the device offers 4096 colors and waited to gauge how much discontent there might be before offering any incentive to the customers. But this deceptive wording certainly causes me to question whether or not this was ever an honest mistake to begin with.
Scott
Jason Dunn
08-21-2002, 04:54 PM
Scott? As someone who has been called a Microsoft apologist in the past, I can say that you're being one for Palm. Let them defend their own actions - you shouldn't' try to make excuses for them. :D
Scott R
08-21-2002, 05:18 PM
Scott? As someone who has been called a Microsoft apologist in the past, I can say that you're being one for Palm. Let them defend their own actions - you shouldn't' try to make excuses for them. :D
:? What post were you reading? (or were you being sarcastic?)
Scott
Jason Dunn
08-21-2002, 05:42 PM
:? What post were you reading? (or were you being sarcastic?)
No sarcasm here. You're trying to excuse Palm's actions by claiming that because the m130 is sold for less than the HP 545 was, it's "ok". Just because a customer may not notice the problem doesn't mean its ok for a company to lie. You're being an apologist and I'm calling you on it. Fair is fair. :D
Scott R
08-21-2002, 06:29 PM
No sarcasm here. You're trying to excuse Palm's actions by claiming that because the m130 is sold for less than the HP 545 was, it's "ok". Just because a customer may not notice the problem doesn't mean its ok for a company to lie. You're being an apologist and I'm calling you on it. Fair is fair. :D
OK then. In that case I stand by my original question. What post were you reading? Please re-read my comments. In no way did I excuse their actions here. What you may be getting confused about is that I claimed that the issue may become a non-issue simply because the current owners of the m130 may largely fall into the non-geek (and non-vocal) audience. I think that it's pretty clear in my comments that I think that there is knowing deception going on with Palm's actions in this matter.
Scott
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