Nixing the raffle concept

[Jason Dunn]

Due to the incredibly complex legal hoops I would have to jump through, the raffle idea I had simply won't work. The risk of going ahead with it and having a disgruntled raffle loser or a competitive webmaster report me is too great - I have no desire to spend two years in jail (the penalty in Canada). It's pretty upsetting to me, because as a concept it seemed great - everyone was so excited! Not having any knowledge about raffles, I wasn't aware that they were made illegal in the US and Canada quite a few years ago.<br /><br />I find it so disheartening that we can have a great idea, a lot of enthusiasm, the desire to make it fair for everyone, yet have the concept killed due to fear of legal reprisal. Lawyers have ruined the world. Except for Marlof and any lawyers reading this site of course. It's all those OTHER lawyers that did it! <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif" /><br /><br />The idea of buying the device then putting it up on ebay has quite a bit of merit - I'd likely only lose 5-10% of the value of the item, and if someone from this site were to buy it, perhaps even less. I'll consider it for next time. Thanks so much for your enthusiasm and support, but it doesn't appear like this is realistic.

[Master O'Mayhem]

Believe me, Dont get caught up in the legal system. I agree it wasnt worth it.

[marlof]

Don't think too high of me. I've been known to ruin quite some worlds myself. And I agree with Andrew: it was not worth it. I fear that you'd spend more time and money in getting this done within the borders of the law, than you'd like for something that should *help* you run this site.

[don996cab]

or you could make it a private transaction.

Ask 50 users to donate $10 for an item.
Buy the item after you receive the donation.
You can list the names of all the doners on a page for a particular item

Once you are done reviewing the item, randomly select which of your 50 "friends" you will donate the item to.

Dont call it a contest, raffle or charity. Just make it a "private" donation request between friends.

It works for me.

[marlof]

Dont call it a contest, raffle or charity. Just make it a "private" donation request between friends.

The law is lest interested in how you call it, then in what it is. What you're describing is a raffle. :) I'm sorry, but no matter how much we'd like to set up something like this, it is just not something that looks doable.

[Hans the Hedgehog]

... Lawyers have ruined the world ...

While I partially agree, Jason, it's not truly the lawyers' fault. We should really focus on the greedy, slimy people who look for other greedy, slimy people who choose to help them. Remember, lawyers have also been responsible for some of the most wonderful progress we have today and for protecting some of our basic and unique rights here in the US.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... :wink:

Hans.

PS: too bad about the raffle, though, it seemed like a winner. :(

[JonnoB]

phooey. I guess this site can't be an online gambling site where the entrance is a small fee and the prize a nice PDA.

[Wes Salmon]

So you're telling me I *don't* have to buy magazines to win the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes. DOH!

I guess we can blame Ed McMahon for all these crazy laws. ;)

[Paragon]

SPONSOR

Perhaps you could make a deal with someone like Handheld Canada who would buy the hardware from you and sell it as an open box?

Dave

[pt]

churches can do raffles internally or anything they want (church and state)...just declare www.pocketpcthoughts.com as a house of worship, and these are religious activities. if we all agree to that, we're fine.

:lol:

cheers,
pt

[b3trio]

Jason

I imagine a large number of Thoughts visitors are early adopters and would be interested in purchasing your review device (at a slight discount, say 10% off) once you have completed your review.

So that you don't let this influence the way you review a device, however, you might want to arrange the sale before you publish your review.

You will probably have more than one person interested in each device, so you can randomly select who gets to purchase it.

Just a thought :)

[JonnoB]

I imagine a large number of Thoughts visitors are early adopters and would be interested in purchasing your review device (at a slight discount, say 10% off) once you have completed your review.


Another thought... the sale could be limited to a private group who bought memberships and the buyer basically buys the device at a discount equal to the cost of shipping the unit.

[sweetpete]

... Lawyers have ruined the world ...
Remember, lawyers have also been responsible for some of the most wonderful progress we have today and for protecting some of our basic and unique rights here in the US.


It's also lawyers that got George W. elected :evil: ... what protection was that :?:

Anyway ... back to the topic. How about working together with some of your partner sites in getting the PDA's at a discount and hopefully before they are sold to the public. At the same time you post the item on ebay with a one week expiry on the auction or a reasonable "Buy Now" price. That way you can have an item hopefully a little sooner and guaranteed that due to demand you will get a good bid on the purchase and not lose out.
None of us want to see you guys out of pocket!

[danmanmayer]

i wish there was a way to do this. Now i will just have to buy a pocket pc at full price.

[yada88]

I am no lawyer, but I think I might have an idea. What the person said about the church being able to do a raffle makes sense. I don't know about Canadian laws much, but in the US, non-profit groups can do a lot of things regular people or companies can't, and for less money. If the site is hosted in the US, or even one of the main contributors lives in the US, you might want to think about making pocketpcthoughts.com into a non profit organization. Here's the best part... just because you are a non profit, doesn't mean you can't have affiliated partners, or have people send you guys money. All it means is that at the end of the day, there is no profit made, and taken by the owner. If your "salaries" used up all the money, there is no money left over. And you are providing a service to a community in need.

I don't want to get high and mighty, but I think this idea deserves some consideration. It would also help, because any money your affiliates gave you, and any money people donated, would be tax free for you, and tax deductable for them. I am sure there are a lot of companies who would like that.

8O

I forgot to finish the thought, and say that as a non-profit, you'll then be able to hold a raffle in order to raise money for your "organization".

[CoffeeKid]

Jason, eBay is by far and away your best route.

The thing is, you're looking a gift horse in the mouth (no offense meant), and anything you make from the sale of the product is a bonus. I was a bit taken aback by the idea of doing a raffle and taking what could potentially be a very large profit off of the sale price of the device. But hey, that's me.

I'm currently sitting in a house with about $16,000USD worth of espresso and coffee equipment. Some belongs to me (or more appropriately, the CoffeeGeek website) because it has been donated to the website.

More of it is earmarked for giving away as prizes through promotions on the website. I don't get to keep it, or sell it to support the site, but I do get a promotion avenue to drive up visits to the site, and drive up our ad rates (which, btw, I haven't raised since we launched the site - I'm either too stupid, or too nice).

And some of it, the most expensive portions, are earmarked for being returned to the supplier once the detailed evaluation is done. Basically anything over $300USD wholesale value is option b or c above, and most items over $1000USD wholesale are going to be requested back.

If I make about $2k from selling the above items that I can sell, I'd consider that very fortunate and lucky. The very fact that the suppliers have donated these items to me to support the site is pretty cool, and while on one hand, if I could get full retail for them by selling them, I'd be happy, on the other hand, I just don't feel right about getting that kind of money for something I didn't originally buy... regardless of the fact that I put, on average, about 100 hours worth of labour into each detailed review for each product we review.

But again, that's me. Probably stupid about it, I know, but I have these weird internal moral ethics to deal with. I'm also constantly and supremely concerned about maintaining both my perceived and real objectivity in our Detailed Reviews. The last thing I want to be seen as is a person who will review products only in a glowing light because a) I wanna sell them for as much as I can get, and b) I can continually get more schwag.

In another vein, CG isn't a site that "pays the bills", as in your case or Steve at Brighthand, or Steve at steves-digicam's, or phil askey over at the supremely excellent dpreview. In fact, CG costs me about $200 a month out of pocket currently. Only site authors get paid (once they publish enough articles), hosting costs (!!!) my programmers get bonuses sometimes for exceptional work on the site, and of course, the logistics of running the site (LD calls, shipping costs, etc) eat up any money we make from limited ads. Again, I'm probably stupid, but I have a day job that I'm happy with. I may raise rates in the future, but only to the point where the site breaks even. Maybe one day it will be my full time job (actually it is today, but it doesn't pay the mortgage - it's all volunteer work :)).

In your case, this site does have to be revenue positive, so I see the idea behind the raffle as a way to make money to pay the bills - because we have different methodologies in running an influencer site (or a different business plan, as it were), I give a lot of the stuff away where you can't and still stay around. But I'll go back to my initial thought - anything you make from the sale is 100% profit - or a gift horse. So don't look at its teeth too closely :)

[DrtyBlvd]

Auction....auction....auction....


It's your site; you can SELL what you wish. You have the tools to do so with the ability to incentivise a fair price for goods and with minimum effort.

Auction....auction....auction....


(With the caveat of Outlook 2002's EULA of course) :wink:

[Jason Dunn]

The thing is, you're looking a gift horse in the mouth (no offense meant), and anything you make from the sale of the product is a bonus. I was a bit taken aback by the idea of doing a raffle and taking what could potentially be a very large profit off of the sale price of the device. But hey, that's me.

I think you're misunderstanding my orignal intention - I would only sell enough raffle tickets to cover the cost of the device and shipping. I would not be profiting from it. It was simply an effort to get the latest devices and not go broke buying them (breaking even). You have the advantage of being in contact with the OEMs who make coffee equipment - I've had a HELL of a time finding anyone to talk to at Toshiba, Fujitsu, etc. I have a good contact at Casio and HP, but neither company has ever sent me a review unit.

But as I've already stated, the concept is dead, so your concerns ring somewhat hollow. :wink:

[RavenSBNC]

I am no lawyer, but I think I might have an idea. What the person said about the church being able to do a raffle makes sense. I don't know about Canadian laws much, but in the US, non-profit groups can do a lot of things regular people or companies can't, and for less money. If the site is hosted in the US, or even one of the main contributors lives in the US, you might want to think about making pocketpcthoughts.com into a non profit organization. Here's the best part... just because you are a non profit, doesn't mean you can't have affiliated partners, or have people send you guys money. All it means is that at the end of the day, there is no profit made, and taken by the owner. If your "salaries" used up all the money, there is no money left over. And you are providing a service to a community in need.
able to hold a raffle in order to raise money for your "organization".

That might work, I work for a non-profit organazation and we legally do raffles all the time at large events, many of which important goverment officials have been present at so it is definatly legal.

[CoffeeKid]

I think you're misunderstanding my orignal intention - I would only sell enough raffle tickets to cover the cost of the device and shipping. I would not be profiting from it. It was simply an effort to get the latest devices and not go broke buying them (breaking even). You have the advantage of being in contact with the OEMs who make coffee equipment - I've had a HELL of a time finding anyone to talk to at Toshiba, Fujitsu, etc. I have a good contact at Casio and HP, but neither company has ever sent me a review unit.

But as I've already stated, the concept is dead, so your concerns ring somewhat hollow. :wink:

Again, I really didn't mean any offense :) I was not aware that you would put a cap on the raffle income.

Developing the relationships is a tricky one, I'll grant you. I have the good fortune of having developed really good email relationships with a lot of vendors (resellers) prior to the launch of CG, and the popularity of the site plus some mainstream press have opened up the possibilities of the site to OEMs, as you put it (it's actually distributors - most of the OEMs in this biz are in Italy - and I only have direct relationships with two of them).

The balance is hard to maintain as well. I thought I had a fairly good relationship with an importer of two product lines (Wega and Innova for those who care), but after posting what I thought was a fair, sometimes positive, sometimes negative review of an Innova grinder, the importer started talking bad about me and the site behind the scenes (it's a small community, so word does get around), and has decided not to send me any more products because I wouldn't do the evaluation he wanted.

One thing that has worked REALLY well for me Jason is attending the trade shows, and more importantly, attending them as press. I've opened up a lot of contacts thru this route; for example, I attended a 3 day show in Anaheim in May, and the result was good contacts with folks from some major companies, even mainstream ones to non-espresso heads, like Thermos Nissan, Bodum, and the like. I even have contacts from folks at Starbucks and Peets because of that show. Do what it takes to get the press creds for the trade shows in the PPC industry.

There are other tricks and tips I've learned along the way (and man, I'm still learning) to foster these relationships. If you email me offline, we can discuss more. I can also send you copies of our promo and information literature we've done up to give us an air of "respectability" to these companies. It may give you some ideas on how to package your site in a way that would make it appealing to companies like Toshiba and Fujitsu.

Cheers

Mark
PS... I don't want to give the impression that anything I do or anyone at CoffeeGeek does is the only way to foster relationships or dispose of schwag, or even how to run an influencer website - it's just the way I've chosen to do so.

[Ashley Dunn]

One thing that has worked REALLY well for me Jason is attending the trade shows, and more importantly, attending them as press. I've opened up a lot of contacts thru this route; for example, I attended a 3 day show in Anaheim in May, and the result was good contacts with folks from some major companies, even mainstream ones to non-espresso heads, like Thermos Nissan, Bodum, and the like. I even have contacts from folks at Starbucks and Peets because of that show. Do what it takes to get the press creds for the trade shows in the PPC industry.

Mark, as Jason's wife, and a supporter of this site and his work, I can guarantee you that he would LOVE to attend all the Pocket PC related trade shows. Unfortunately, one of the disadvantages of living in Canada is that plane tickets down to the States are outrageously priced. I've travelled down there a couple of times with tickets costing me in excess of $3000 CAD. I'm sure you can appreciate the efforts Jason is going to via email and phone conversations. It's frustrating that we have to pay so much to get down to the US, but it's a reality we face every time we travel. :wink:

[CoffeeKid]

Mark, as Jason's wife, and a supporter of this site and his work, I can guarantee you that he would LOVE to attend all the Pocket PC related trade shows. Unfortunately, one of the disadvantages of living in Canada is that plane tickets down to the States are outrageously priced. I've travelled down there a couple of times with tickets costing me in excess of $3000 CAD. I'm sure you can appreciate the efforts Jason is going to via email and phone conversations. It's frustrating that we have to pay so much to get down to the US, but it's a reality we face every time we travel. :wink:

Hey, I'm in the same boat, being based in Vancouver, BC. The trip to Anaheim was partially offset by me trading work for a plane ticket (creative writing on the side was the work), but it still set me back about $1,000 USD for the trip.

Because I consider those trips part of the "expenses" of running the website, but don't pay myself a salary, the website can cover 3 or 4 of those trips a year, even with the plane ticket, though sometimes I fly out of Seattle instead of Vancouver. I also drive when I can. I have a major trade show in September in Portland, and another one in Seattle in October I'm driving to. I have a thing in the last week of September in Boston, and the flight is $$$ but the trip really should be worth it for the contacts I'll be making.

When you run an information website, paper, magazine, whatever, travelling to the trade shows is a "business expense" as it were. With a larger magazine, it's a case of getting your boss to sign the chit to do the travel. With smaller operations (and especially the website modus), it's a case of "the buck stops here".

But I've found that, while email and phone works great, nothing compares to shaking the hands in person.

Mark