Fight the hype! The myth of the Apple Mhz

[Jason Dunn]

<a href="http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/07_jul/features/cw_macvspc2.htm">http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/07_jul/features/cw_macvspc2.htm</a><br /><br />My wife Ashley works with a team of people in a creative design department, and they all use Macs. No surprise there. Yet what surprises me is how deluded these Mac users are when it comes to what the real advantages of their Macs are. They still persist in clinging to the hope that somehow, the words of Steve Jobs will warp quantum reality and give them a computer that really is the fastest on the block, Mhz be damned! Sorry Apple boy, it just 'aint so. The advantage of the Mac in the graphics industry is that most people were trained on it and no how to use it. It's a matter of familiarity, not superiority of the platform. That's not a bad thing mind you - so why can't they just accept that? We all started out in life drinking milk and eating mashed up peas - then we moved on and got a Windows PC. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif" /><br /><br />"In our first round of head-to-head Mac vs. PC testing, we pitted a dual Athlon 1800+MP machine against a Mac dual 1GHz G4 using six Adobe After Effects benchmarks that tested all kinds of capabilities. For round two, by popular demand, we now compare a single-processor Dell Precision Workstation 320 with a 2.53GHz chip to the Dual 1GHz Mac, and also to the fastest machine we've tested here so far, a dual Athlon 2000+MP machine by BOXX. And we'll be testing all three machines using not only After Effects 5.5 benchmarks, but Adobe Photoshop 7.0 benchmarks as well. So which machine came out ahead?"<br /><br />Here's a hint: it wasn't the pretty one. There are two more articles that <a href="http://www.queru.com/articles/Benchmarks.html">debunk</a> the gossamer threads of <a href="http://www.queru.com/articles/Benchmarks2.html">Apple mythology.</a> Macs have some great things going for them, but raw CPU power is not one of them, and I wish Jobs would accept that and quite bragging about his "Velocity Engine". Apple should just accept that Motorola is focused more on low-power CPUs for mobile devices than high-powered CPUs for desktop computers, and accept the smothering embrace of Intel. It's inevitable.<br /><br />I know I'm just asking for flames from the Mac users that read this site, but this had to be said. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif" />

[don dre]

AMD might work more to their interests. But Apple's old IBM clampdown on the pieces make them unable to take advantage of most of the R & D in the computer industry.

[David McNamee]

There have been rumors of Apple moving to Intel chips for a few months now. CNet just ran this article:

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-948239.html

Maybe Jobs & Co. do get it, and they're building up a team of crisis councilors to help break it to the faithful.

[PPCRules]

Maybe Jobs & Co. do get it, ...
Nah; there has to be another explanation.

[Jimmy Dodd]

I always get a kick out of the Mac vs. MS bickering. Usually it degenerates into "is not", "is so", "is not", "is so!" It's almost as bad as the PPC vs. Palm fight. :roll:

Let's face it. The real reason people use Macs is because they like them better. That's the only reason for choosing a Mac over a PC. Of course, that's also the only reason for choosing a PC over a Mac, too. All of the MHz, price, ease of use, pretty, elitism, anti-Gates, anti-Jobs, anti-WhoeverRunsPalmTheseDays, etc. arguments boil down to that. "I like it better" - "it" being whichever one you like. Why you like "it" better is a very personal matter and rarely applies to everyone else. Heck, if that funny looking upside-down bowl model Mac with the swivel monitor makes you happy everytime you look at it and that's the only reason you chose it then you made a good decision in my book. If you bought a Claudia Schiffer model Palm and it does everything you need (plus you really like the color) then I applaud your decision. As long as it's your money and not mine you are spending I say "go for it." (If you bought your computer based on blind product loyalty, salesman pressure, or peer pressure you might want to check into some assertiveness training, though.)

Having said that let me state that I do believe everyone owes it to himself/herself to continually check out other solutions. After all "I like it better" is a good reason for choosing (regardless of your reasoning), "it's what I've always had" is not.

---
Bwana Jim

[wiredguy]

MHz Myth (http://www.apple.com/g4/myth/)

Take a look at that benchmark. Their will always be a benchmark that can make either platform look better. If Apple doesn't go with Intel (as rumored), they will be going with G5 processors soon. That should put them far ahead again.

Also, Macs aren't just cool because of the processors. They were the first to have USB standard, first to have Firewire standard, first to have Nvidia GForce4, first to have DVD writable standard (PCs still have many different standards there), and much more.

I view Apple vs. PC like Pocket PC vs. Palm. Apple does all the innovation, and PC just plays catch up... Microsoft PCs and Palm handhelds may sell more... but Apple Macs and Pocket PCs are ahead in technology.

I hope that all makes sense.

[EyePAQ]

There's has got to be something said about the fact that I help my friends all the time fix and tweak their Windows machines (from Win95 to XP), but my 72-year old mother has an iMac, which she unboxed, plugged it in, and was proficient in just a few hours. I've never had to help her with anything. She added more memory, hooked up a scanner, printer, and a USB hub without any help from anyone. This was her first exposure to a personal computer. Now she scans photos of her handmade quilts and sells them to people all around the world. Thanks to her iMac. She would never be able to do this as easily with a Windows Powered PC.

[mememe]

I know I'm just asking for flames from the Mac users that read this site, but this had to be said. http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

This is asinine Jason, your site is a pocketpc site not a lets-slam-mac-because-its-not-MS-website... or do I get this wrong.

What the Mac has going for it is (and I am not a Mac owner) the fact that it works more often with less issues than a Wintel machine.. Is this Intel's fault, no... but it sure the hell is Microsoft's. I have edited video on a Mac and a PC, the Mac wins hands down.. For music it kicks Wintels butt (try itunes and ipod).. and for DVD creation their is nothing on the Wintel platform that is even close..

Truley disappointing. :cry:

[thinkrocket]

As one who works in the world of advertising (a Mac-dominated world), I've been dealing with Macs since they were introduced. I remember when 4 megs of RAM and a 40 meg HD were huge. My only Windows-based experience has come in the last two weeks, after taking the PocketPC leap with my Toshiba e740. (Which I love.)

Sure, we all want the fastest machine there is. But the Macs in my office are plenty fast working in Photoshop, Quark, FinalCut Pro and Illustrator, among others. But honestly, if a gaussian blur takes 1.5 seconds on a Windows machine, and 2 seconds on a Mac, I don't care. What does make a difference to me is that a Mac works intuitively, while my Windows experiences have been completely counter-intuitive. Does this make my Mac better? No. It's just what makes me comfortable.

As for my adventures with ActiveSync and the e740? After two weeks, I'm finally synching, but getting there left some scars.

--Stephen Mick

[michaelalanjones]

Jason, I am sure that you just trolling for activity, but you are wrong. I wrote a paper for my operating systems class, that sheds just a little light on PC vs. Apple CPU's, and PC's vs. Playstation II. This is only 1 of many examples:
http://www.michaelalanjones.com/microprocessors_right_tool.html

It is not just about doing a particular render test in Photoshop, etc. It is about quality, reliability, usability. My wife has a 2-year old 366MHz iBook with AirPort and I have a 9-month old 800MHz PC.

I hate my PC, but I cannot get her to let me use the iBook. The PC is very unreliable, and I have lost data on it several times (where? who knows?). It shuts down all the time (power-saving), and crashes XP. I hate it, dang it. It's all I have, though. I am hoping Santa will bring me a new iBook for Christmas.

She loves the iBook, and surfs the web all the time, with no effort. Always works.

PC users just don't get it - besides all that, she (as other Mac users) thinks it is funny when PC's fail, and doesn't care if you like Macs or not. A lot of PC people feel threatened when they see a Mac, because they only know what they know, and they hate what they don't understand.

Michael

[denivan]

first to have DVD writable standard (PCs still have many different standards there)


Lol, the dvd writer that is used in the mac is just one of the standards that is used in the PC world. So this translates into : on the PC, there are mutltiple standards that can be used, on the Mac, they picked out one of those standards for you and you can't choose to use another standard. Is this bad, no. Is this good, no. It's just a way of thinking. But you hardly can say that they had the first dvd writable standard.

[bsoft]

Jason, I am sure that you just trolling for activity, but you are wrong. I wrote a paper for my operating systems class, that sheds just a little light on PC vs. Apple CPU's, and PC's vs. Playstation II. This is only 1 of many examples:
http://www.michaelalanjones.com/microprocessors_right_tool.html

It is not just about doing a particular render test in Photoshop, etc. It is about quality, reliability, usability. My wife has a 2-year old 366MHz iBook with AirPort and I have a 9-month old 800MHz PC.

I hate my PC, but I cannot get her to let me use the iBook. The PC is very unreliable, and I have lost data on it several times (where? who knows?). It shuts down all the time (power-saving), and crashes XP. I hate it, dang it. It's all I have, though. I am hoping Santa will bring me a new iBook for Christmas.

She loves the iBook, and surfs the web all the time, with no effort. Always works.

PC users just don't get it - besides all that, she (as other Mac users) thinks it is funny when PC's fail, and doesn't care if you like Macs or not. A lot of PC people feel threatened when they see a Mac, because they only know what they know, and they hate what they don't understand.

Michael

You are the one who doesn't get it. Less than ten percent of all computers are Macs. That is for good reason. Why? PCs are standard. You can get any PC from any vendor and run almost any software on it and it will work. I own one PC with an Athlon XP CPU. One has a Pentium 4. One has a Rise 266 (hacked i-opener). They all can run the same software. With a Mac, you are locked into an Apple world.

Want better speakers? You can't just get any pair of computer speakers. You have to buy Mac-compatible USB speakers.

How about a new DVD burner? Sorry, if you didn't buy it with your mac, you're screwed (G4s excluded)

Scanner? Printer? MP3 player? Palmtop computer? Better make sure it's Mac compatable.

Software? Better make sure that's Mac OS X compatable - unless you particularly like "classic" mode.


Apple is selling systems that just don't stack up favorably to PCs. When you run the numbers, PCs are simply more cost effective for the money. Macs don't even have DDR memory yet (excluding the $3000 XServe).

PCs are everywhere because the platform is so open. There are hundreds of companies that produce PC hardware. With PCs, you're not locked into a single vendor. Dell, Gateway, Compaq, HP, Sony, eMachines, and thousands of smaller companies can sell you a PC.

Apple is an island. It's seperate from anything else. Many people like islands - they don't like the way PCs do things. And that's fine. But you must remember: being on an island is limiting.


Oh, and as for "reliability" - Windows 2000/XP solves the problems that Windows had in the past. It's not perfect, but neither is Mac OS X.

http://www.apple.com/switch/ads/ellenfeiss.html

[Perry Reed]

I have several PCs and one Mac. In general I prefer the PCs, but use the Mac for some things like video editing.

In my experience, Macs (and Mac software) have far fewer features than do PCs, however the things that they do do, they do very well and are often easier to use than PCs.

Of course, that doesn't make most of the Mac fanatics any less annoying. :)

[Jimmy Dodd]

Oh, and as for "reliability" - Windows 2000/XP solves the problems that Windows had in the past. It's not perfect, but neither is Mac OS X.

http://www.apple.com/switch/ads/ellenfeiss.html


Ha ha ha ha. Boy, that ad makes me want to, like, switch all right.

"Like, beep, beep, beep, beep!"

Like, I hate it when that happens.

Like, maybe we could get Ellen and, like, the Dell dude together. Like, what would that conversation be like.

---
Like, Bwana Jim

[mookie123]

I hate Mac with a passion since the day it ate my mid term paper in school's lab. And strangely they also start to replace those useless quadra with PC's.

[Retrocactus]

I just recently decided to get a laptop and after much research, I purchased an new ibook (the small 12.1" model - more on that in a bit).

I'm a PC guy, use PC's at work and have 5 desktop PC's (various configs and speeds) at home which are all networked. I like to think I know a little something about them but didn't know much about the Mac side.

When I started looking around at laptops, I found the PC laptop market to be pretty bland. Very short battery life, uninspiring designs, heavy form factors, etc. unless you get one of those small Sony's or Dell's but you have to leave the dvd drive in it's docking station. I had seen the new(er) ibook's in the local computer store and thought they looked cool but didn't even consider them because all my software and accessories are PC centric.

Speed wasn't a major issue as long as the main apps I wanted to use would work - I was willing to be a little slower than a desktop for the sheer convenience of being on my couch instead of at a desk. But the ibook has been fine performance wise so far. Gaming isn't a requirement for me as I have plenty of other options for that (consoles, a few full size arcade cabinets, etc) although it doesn't hurt.

A friend recently bought a top of the line Toshiba laptop which is pretty killer in specs and truly is a desktop replacement. But it would almost be easier to lug around a tower than his laptop as it weighs a ton and he can't even watch a complete 2 hour dvd movie on it without killing the battery. While that's not the reason you buy a laptop, it's certainly something you want to use it for when you're on a flight or away from home. His screen is very nice too and a few inches larger than the ibook but I wanted something smaller and very portable.

I then went to a Web Design conference (for my 'day' job) a few weeks ago and got to see first hand the ibook (and all the other flavors of Apple laptops and a few PC based models) in a real world enviroment away from the showrooms and was pretty impressed - as impressed with it as I was when I saw my first Pocket PC after being a palm guy for a few years.

In particular what impressed me was this guy sitting in front of me at the conference. He an ibook and throughout the whole day of sessions was able to do work in Photoshop, surf the web, email etc (don't know why he came to conference though since he was busy with his laptop) - this is all without having to plug into an outlet - maybe he did during lunch, I didn't follow him. There was wi-fi at the conference so he had full net access too. Long battery life seems to be the holy grail of pda owners and to me, this was equally important in a laptop.

Next obsticle was the software issue. I was concerned that all the apps that I use for my work wouldn't be available for the mac but that was pretty unfounded as a lot of the programs I use are identical on either platform. Haven't had the ibook long enough to find any incompatibilities with file formats but it's only been about 5 days. I'm sure that will crop up soon.

OS X seems pretty stable and software still behaves badly like it sometimes does in Windows so to me it seems to be a pretty level playing field. It just depends on what is important to you.

So, I based my purchase on a few key things that I just couldn't find in a PC based laptop, and those decisions seem to mirror a lot of the same choices everyone makes when deciding on getting a pda or a 'computer' for your mother - it's whatever works for you.

[Ben]

Two things you have to remember when looking at these results:

How old is Athlon MP/XP technology? (i.e. how long ago were the chips released?) 6 months to a year would be my guess, now if my memory serves me correctly the G4 is at least 2 years old now (possibly more?) so I'm not completly sure that Apples are being compared to Apples here (no pun intended - you know what I mean!).

Secondly in one case at least your comparing 1Ghz processors to 2.5Ghz processors - which one would yo pick to give the best performace? it may well be the case that a 1Ghz G4 would have simular to performace to say 1.5Ghz Pentiums but I don't believe that anyone woudl really try and claim that a 1Ghz processor could out perfrom one running at a full two and a half times it's clock speed (someone is right now going to prove me wrong I know it!)

[Janak Parekh]

In particular what impressed me was this guy sitting in front of me at the conference. He an ibook and throughout the whole day of sessions was able to do work in Photoshop, surf the web, email etc (don't know why he came to conference though since he was busy with his laptop) - this is all without having to plug into an outlet - maybe he did during lunch, I didn't follow him. There was wi-fi at the conference so he had full net access too. Long battery life seems to be the holy grail of pda owners and to me, this was equally important in a laptop.
Without a doubt, the G3 is much more power-friendly than most Pentiums, largely due to its much smaller and simpler core. Do note, btw, that G4 does require more power (though still less than a Pentium).

Re your other points: both Toshiba and Sony make small, cutting-edge laptops, so I don't know if I necessarily buy that. But the battery issue is legitimate.

--bdj

[Foo Fighter]

So why can't they just accept that. We all started out in life drinking milk and eating mashed up peas - then we moved on and got a Windows PC.

One reason may be that PCs are about as exciting as eating mashed up peas. Even for someone like me who builds PCs, and plays around with the latest greatest technology, PCs just aren't fun anymore. It's the same old rehashed "eXPerience" over..and over..and over again.

I used to feel the same way you do, Jason. I was a dyed in the wool PC zealot, and I hated Macintosh. But that was before OSX..and Apple's sleek hardware..got me interested in the platform.

The PC platform is stagnant. And apart from an architectural change coming next year (Palladium), there isn't much to look forward to in the way PCs are designed and built. You criticize Apple for its "pretty" designs...but where are the "pretty" PCs? Everywhere you look, it's the same old generic box. Sony is the closest you can get to stylized desktops, and that's not saying very much. In spite of advanced chip architectures, super RAM bus speeds, and blazing video graphics technology, PC makers haven't been able to achieve one simple task: make a computer FUN to use! If auto manufacturers designed cars like OEMs design computers, no one would want to drive. :?

Macs have some great things going for them, but raw CPU power is not one of them,

No argument there. My 1.7 GHZ Pentium 4 runs bloody circles around my 700MHZ G4 iMac.

PowerPC is CRAP!!! :evil:

Apple should just accept that Motorola is focused more on low-power CPUs for mobile devices than high-powered CPUs for desktop computers, and accept the smothering embrace of Intel. It's inevitable.

I would bet money that Apple will move to x86 in the not too distant future. Perhaps as early as next year. AMD would be my bet. Opteron perhaps?

PowerPC has no future as a desktop platform. Motorola has focused its attention on the embedded market (such as set-top boxes) which is where it belongs.

I know I'm just asking for flames from the Mac users that read this site, but this had to be said.

Well, when you cover yourself in gasoline, you have to expect someone to strike a match! :P

[Janak Parekh]

I hate my PC, but I cannot get her to let me use the iBook. The PC is very unreliable, and I have lost data on it several times (where? who knows?). It shuts down all the time (power-saving), and crashes XP. I hate it, dang it. It's all I have, though. I am hoping Santa will bring me a new iBook for Christmas.
Why are you blaming Windows for this? How do you know you don't have a hardware defect? My three XP boxes (one at work, one at home, my laptop) never crash. I do reboot occasionally, but that's for software installs, etc.
In particular, if you are having APM/ACPI problems, a BIOS update might be in order...

Also, what brand PC is this? Is it a "discount" PC? Sometimes, some of the no-names use cheaper, less reliable parts. Apple does generally have good QA practices, so that's not necessarily a good comparison.

--bdj

[jdhill]

All right !!!

Flame war !!!

:onfire:

:snipersmile:

:2gunfire:

[Foo Fighter]

All right !!!

Flame war !!!

:onfire:

:snipersmile:

:2gunfire:

JIIIIHHHHAAAADDDD!

:twisted:

[PPCRules]

What the Mac has going for it is the fact that it works more often with less issues than a Wintel machine.. Is this Intel's fault, no... but it sure the hell is Microsoft's...
I don't think that's fair to say.

Apple can make an operating system that works on their own and only their own hardware. That's a no brainer; it had better be more robust.

Microsoft has to deal with everybody else's idea of how to build hardware, which continually changes. Plus, then users upgrade their machines with another plethera of manufacturers' products. That's a hard bill to fill, but having those choices is also why most of us buy PCs.

It's not someone's fault. It's the way it is. And you use that when you weigh what computer you are going to buy.

Will someone's mother have less setup/operational issues with a Mac? Probably. If that's the highest criteria, there you go.

[Perry Reed]

Just saw this today and thought it was appropriate for this thread: &lt;http://bbspot.com/News/2000/7/new_macs.html>

WARNING! It's a bit off-color...

[ricktakagi]

I would love to move to a mac, I love the look of the new imac. I don't do a lot of gaming or hardcore use of the computer so speed and muscle are not a major requirement.

The only thing holding me back is a way to sync my PPC with the Mac, a product exist called pocketmac but it doesn't sync email. I'm hoping and have heard that the new isync software from Apple will cover that.

Rick

[wiredguy]

first to have DVD writable standard (PCs still have many different standards there)


Lol, the dvd writer that is used in the mac is just one of the standards that is used in the PC world. So this translates into : on the PC, there are mutltiple standards that can be used, on the Mac, they picked out one of those standards for you and you can't choose to use another standard. Is this bad, no. Is this good, no. It's just a way of thinking. But you hardly can say that they had the first dvd writable standard.

What I meant is... it's finally a standard OS wide. This way anyone with a mac knows they have the same writable DVD that another MAC has. PC manufacturers are to concerned about being the originator of a standard... and don't care about the consumers experience.

I don't believe there can be more than one Standard... so all the PC DVD writers are really just wanna-be standards.

Same with USB... there were other "standards" to choose from... but Apple made a choice to simplify the consumer experience. PC vendors may have lots of standards... but that doesn't benefit consumers.

[wiredguy]

What the Mac has going for it is the fact that it works more often with less issues than a Wintel machine.. Is this Intel's fault, no... but it sure the hell is Microsoft's...
I don't think that's fair to say.

Apple can make an operating system that works on their own and only their own hardware. That's a no brainer; it had better be more robust.

Microsoft has to deal with everybody else's idea of how to build hardware, which continually changes. Plus, then users upgrade their machines with another plethera of manufacturers' products. That's a hard bill to fill, but having those choices is also why most of us buy PCs.

It's not someone's fault. It's the way it is. And you use that when you weigh what computer you are going to buy.

Will someone's mother have less setup/operational issues with a Mac? Probably. If that's the highest criteria, there you go.

Who cares why Mac can make a more robust system... they still do it. To explain that Windows has an unfair disadvantage (and that "it's just the way it is") doesn't change the fact that a Mac is easier to setup and use.

It's Microsoft's fault for not doing something about it. I heard something about them making hardware... maybe that'll hold up better.

I'd like to see Bill G stand up and say... sorry folks, PCs crash... "that's just the way it is" :). That would almost beat the Balmer Monkey video clip.

[ricktakagi]

This was an interesting read that came out today. Maybe Apples time is coming or at least coming up from just a niche OS.

I think it's exciting when Apple comes out with something new, I don't get to excited when dell comes out with a new box.

Anyway, check out the article.

http://www.businesswire.com/cgi-bin/f_headline.cgi?bw.080602/222182050


Rick T.

[Jonathan1]

Unfortunately if you want to get the heck away from the MS monopoly Apple is really the only game in town. Linux sminux. Linux is 3rd in line when it comes to "standard" software showing up on its platform. Sorry but GIMP ain't Photoshop or Paint Shop Pro. Apple comes next but god I hate the GUI on OS X. Its pretty…that's a given but actual use makes me sick sort of like motion sickness but with an OS.
Then you have windows. If it weren't for the fact that the OS is run by the most morally corrupt company on the planet (This is a company that could probably teach Enron a few lesions.) I would say that Windows is THE OS of choice. As it stands its like dancing with the devil on the edge of a precipitous that leads to hell. If you aren't careful MS…sorry the devil will take you down with him. :twisted:

PS- If I ever meet Jobs in real life I'll break his nose for killing the Newton. The only Apple that I've ever owned and loved was the Newton. The perfect form factor. The perfect handwriting recog. The perfect batt life. The perfect screen. And that SOB killed it because it wasn't his baby. :twisted: Gates may be evil but Jobs is insane. :cry: WAAAAAA I want my Newton back!

[brianchris]

Maybe Mac's have changed in OSX, but here are some *personal* prime examples of why I prefer PC's over Mac's:

-Supporting one user who was having problems, OS error message appeared with an icon of a time bomb (complete with fuse), indicating "a serious error has occured with your system, please call 1(800)xxx-xxxx." That was it......no mention of what the error was, no jumping out to DOS, nothing.....just like fisher price, my first personal computer.

-Another user wanted to start using an old PowerMac desktop that had been sitting unused in their garage for months to a year or so. Couldn't power it on so brought it to me.....I guessed it was a dead motherboard battery (CMOS), and went to open up the case to replace the battery.....for the life of me, I could not find out how to open the case, and this is someone who has opened hundreds of Intel cases. So I search apple's site for a manual or other instructions on how to open the case.....nothing. So I call apple, and ask how I open the case? "Oh, we don't support users opening their cases, please take it to an Apple autorized repair facililty." WTF!! Just to open the case? This was stright from Apple, so their is no arguing with me. They don't trust, and don't want their users opening their cases.

-For a while I worked for a conference center, where a great deal of laptop presentations where given and I was responsible (among other things) for supporting the presenters with their laptops and our hardware. While the majorty were windows laotps, they were all much easier to display, usually by toggling a function key (i.e. F8 ), where as Mac's you needed to go into the OS and switch on "Video Mirroring." 98% of Mac laptop users had never heard of that.

-Three words......"no right click."

The first three examples are facts...they happened to me plain and simple, no arguing with them. That right click thing can be considered an opinion, but really, only a left click? Why?

Hey, after all that, if there are other benefits of Macs that one sees which outway some of the problems I've personally run into, then I am all for *you* buying a Mac, really. But personally, I will never touch one with a 10' pole, and please don't try to convince me that a Mac is better and I should own one because your "mom has never had a problem with hers." I'd probably consider recomending a Mac to my Mom as well, but not me.

-Brian

[Foo Fighter]

Maybe Mac's have changed in OSX,

Maybe? That's like saying..."Maybe PCs have changed since Windows 95."

....for the life of me, I could not find out how to open the case, and this is someone who has opened hundreds of Intel cases.

Oh dear God. This is an old PowerMac? Have you seen a PowerMac made in the last 3 years? They have a door on the side that swings open...and the mobo is built right into the door. Can't get much easier than that.

-Three words......"no right click."

Five words...Macs do have right click!

They just ship with one button mice. But you can plug any USB PC mouse (even Microsoft Intellimouse) into a Mac and have righ-click menus.

[Reluctant Luddite]

I'm in a similar situation as Retrocactus--I use x86 PCs all day, but I'm seriously considering purchasing a 12" iBook. The pricing on the iBook (IMO one of the few reasonably priced computers in Apple's lineup, in addition to the 17" iMac) is more or less comparable to that of a similarly sized x86 laptop.

Re your other points: both Toshiba and Sony make small, cutting-edge laptops, so I don't know if I necessarily buy that. But the battery issue is legitimate.

Sure they do. But the appeal of the iBook for me is that it's small and fairly inexpensive and gives me a whole new OS to play with. It's a nice complement to an x86 desktop--kinda like the Pocket PC :D

[TQBrady]

Want better speakers? You can't just get any pair of computer speakers. You have to buy Mac-compatible USB speakers.

Not true. Anything that can plug into a minijack(headphone jack) can work on any Mac with a sound card. Sound Blaster soundcards are available, and some older ones(just as some older ATI cards) will work on both platforms with a ROM-replacement.

How about a new DVD burner? Sorry, if you didn't buy it with your mac, you're screwed (G4s excluded)

G4 excluded? Whatever worked on the G3 works on the G4 . . . the IDE controllers haven't changed! There are plenty of third party DVD-burners available. Lots of them use firewire ports - you might have heard of those. They were invented by Mac(YES, they were).

Scanner? Printer? MP3 player? Palmtop computer? Better make sure it's Mac compatable.

The same is true of Windows machines, genius. MANY, MANY scanners and printers are Mac compatible. Lots of MP3 players - including the best one available, the iPod. All Palms(and most Pocket PCs in conjunction with PocketMac).

Software? Better make sure that's Mac OS X compatable - unless you particularly like "classic" mode.

Holy cow! This is the one thing that was invented on PCs and migrated to Macs! Have you heard of Windows XP? Windows 2000? Do you remember how long it was after they came out before they supported ANY third-party hardware?[/quote]

***Posted edited by moderator for niceness factor***

[Jason Dunn]

They just ship with one button mice. But you can plug any USB PC mouse (even Microsoft Intellimouse) into a Mac and have righ-click menus.

Really? I never knew that. But why should anyone who buys a new Mac have to shell out more money to get something as standard as that? Seems a little fishy to me...I bet it's because Jobs doesn't want to "copy" the PC or admit that a right mouse button (or a middle one, or a side one...) are all excellent ways to give the user more control over their computer. If it didn't get invented at Apple, it's crap, right? :roll:

[brianchris]

They just ship with one button mice. But you can plug any USB PC mouse (even Microsoft Intellimouse) into a Mac and have righ-click menus.

Really? I never knew that. But why should anyone who buys a new Mac have to shell out more money to get something as standard as that? Seems a little fishy to me...I bet it's because Jobs doesn't want to "copy" the PC or admit that a right mouse button (or a middle one, or a side one...) are all excellent ways to give the user more control over their computer. If it didn't get invented at Apple, it's crap, right? :roll:

I didn't know that as well, so thanks FooFighter.....but what about all those lovely iBooks and other Mac Laptops with built in one button mice? External mouse only if you want right click with a Mac Laptop. Fishy is right.

Also, glad to hear that Mac cases have become easier to open up, yet you can *not* defend Apple refusing to provide instructions on how to open a case. A user had to pay an authorized repair facility a lot more money for their time to just replace a mobo battery (they were a friend of mine I was helping pro-bono). Anyway, you can't defend that.

I'm sure OSX is much better than earlier versions, that's exactly why I was suggesting it. I was just admiting I hadn't used OSX that much yet....sorry :roll:

-Brian

[ricktakagi]

I'm amazed to see so many people who obviously have an interest in computers have so little knowledge about the Mac yet make statements that seem so absolute.

I hope that the people who dismiss the Mac OS will check it out and maybe see that it's an exciting product.

Rick T.

[TQBrady]

GET OVER THE ONE-BUTTON MOUSE!!!

Here's the deal: Mac users have always been into keyboard short-cuts(another Mac OS Innovation that was mimicked by Windows). EVERYTHING on a Mac has a keyboard short-cut. When the time came to add a second functionality to the mouse button, Apple decided to leave the hardware alone and add a keyboard-modifier.

THERE IS SUCH A THING AS RIGHT-CLICKING ON ANY ONE-BUTTON MOUSE EQUIPPED MAC WITH NEARLY ANY VERSION OF THE MAC OS!!!

You hold the CTRL button while clicking. Is that so hard? No. It's not. It's DIFFERENT. Not worse, not better. It's a matter of preference. And, as stated, third-party mice have worked in Macs for YEARS. I can't BELIEVE you people didn't know that! Well, actually, that doesn't surprise me, but I can't believe you would speak so boldly about something you know so very little about.

By the way, I use an Athlon XP 1800+ that I put inside a NeXT Cube(took 6 hours of customization) at home, a P4 1.5 (that I assembled along with 12 others, and I'm not in the IT department, I manage an editing department), and a PowerBook G3 500 nearly everywhere I go. Also, I replaced my iPaq with a Nokia 9290. Go figure.

[wiredguy]

They just ship with one button mice. But you can plug any USB PC mouse (even Microsoft Intellimouse) into a Mac and have righ-click menus.

Really? I never knew that. But why should anyone who buys a new Mac have to shell out more money to get something as standard as that? Seems a little fishy to me...I bet it's because Jobs doesn't want to "copy" the PC or admit that a right mouse button (or a middle one, or a side one...) are all excellent ways to give the user more control over their computer. If it didn't get invented at Apple, it's crap, right? :roll:

If you have a single mouse button, you just CTRL+Click to get right mouse button results. I keep my left hand on the keyboard for ALT+TAB, Cut, Copy, and Paste anyway... so now it just does the right click menus too.

[TQBrady]

WiredGuy, you're alright! :D

[Mr. Anonymous]

I would dearly love to get a Mac, but unfortunately I'm a gamer:

http://www.drunkgamers.com/switch0001.shtml

[brianchris]

GET OVER THE ONE-BUTTON MOUSE!!!

third-party mice have worked in Macs for YEARS. I can't BELIEVE you people didn't know that! Well, actually, that doesn't surprise me, but I can't believe you would speak so boldly about something you know so very little about.

Listen, all the comments I made about no right click WERE from my experience!! I have worked with over 60 individual Mac's in my career (supporting users in one way or another), and not one of them ever had a third party mouse hooked up to it, let alone a thrid party mouse with a right click button. And not one of those users ever used the CTRL-Click shortcut you refered to.

Sorry to disapoint, but I was not just talking out loud, and sorry the 60+ mac users I've dealt with weren't advanced enough to know what you know. Of course, Apple could of just avoided this mis-understanding by including a right click button with their shipping mice, if, that is, there is any value in right clicking at all.

-Brian

[denivan]

What most people don't seem to grasp is that you get used to a certain OS and that there is no need to switch. After all , it's just about different interfaces. Let's face it, everything that can be done on a PC can be done more or less on a Mac and vice versa. It's just 'how' you do it.

I for one, am a windows man. Always have been and never will change. I remember the first time I met with macos. Our company needed some troubleshooting on their imac and i figured i could find my way around macos easily, so i boldly went where I hadn't gone before ;)

I realised that the GUI was totally different. Another way of working and another concept. For instance, i couldn't find how to eject a cd-rom, so I went and asked someone (embarrasing) and found out i had to drag the cd icon to the dustbin. For a non mac person this hardly seems logical. Like others said , macos is also shortcut driven. Everytime i needed something the reply was : 'press apple - blah, press apple - so'. For mac people this may be a great way of using their computer, but for pc'ers, it's just unnatural and i'm certain it's the other way around. So, it all boils down to preference. No OS is superior, they're just different.

Ivan

P.S. Off course you can allways argue on which hardware is superior ;)

[wiredguy]

For instance, i couldn't find how to eject a cd-rom, so I went and asked someone (embarrasing) and found out i had to drag the cd icon to the dustbin. For a non mac person this hardly seems logical. Like others said , macos is also shortcut driven. Everytime i needed something the reply was : 'press apple - blah, press apple - so'. For mac people this may be a great way of using their computer, but for pc'ers, it's just unnatural and i'm certain it's the other way around. So, it all boils down to preference. No OS is superior, they're just different.

Although I agree with your points (different people want different things) I have to say... you can also eject a CD by CTRL+Clicking the icon (yes, like right-clicking) and selecting "Eject" :D. I guess the idea behind this was to keep everything OS based... no hardware buttons to confuse with software-based vitual eject buttons.

[ricktakagi]

Actually, the ibooks have F12 as the eject button. I'm not sure if that applies to the imacs or ti line.

Rick T.

[wiredguy]

I would dearly love to get a Mac, but unfortunately I'm a gamer:

http://www.drunkgamers.com/switch0001.shtml

Funny video... but two points...

Macs are making big steps in the gaming industry. More games are Mac compatible than before, and Apple is forming partnerships to improve the gaming experience. For example, Mac was the first to have Nvidia GForce4 graphics cards... important for gaming, no?

Second, with Playstation 2 and XBox coming out... there are far more options than just PC gaming. Sure, I'm a PC Gamer myself, but the standards that consoles bring help developers make the most of the hardware... and turn out some sweet games. Once consoles can play over the internet, PC gaming will be a minor argument for PC vs. Mac. The fact that Microsoft is making an Xbox goes to show they know consoles are the gaming systems of the future.

[wiredguy]

Actually, the ibooks have F12 as the eject button. I'm not sure if that applies to the imacs or ti line.

Rick T.

Yeah, same with my Ti-Book... but I'm not sure if that is the case with older macs.

[sweetpete]

Secondly in one case at least your comparing 1Ghz processors to 2.5Ghz processors - which one would yo pick to give the best performace? it may well be the case that a 1Ghz G4 would have simular to performace to say 1.5Ghz Pentiums but I don't believe that anyone woudl really try and claim that a 1Ghz processor could out perfrom one running at a full two and a half times it's clock speed (someone is right now going to prove me wrong I know it!)

Well, for one, Apple is comparing the 2. I think the main reason for this comparison is that Apple offers the dual proc 1 ghz g4 as the top of the line offering and all this test did was compare it to simlarly priced top of the line Wintel and AMD platforms.
A lot of people are here offering the gospel on one side or the other, but to me the even handed posts make the most sense. They each have benefits that I like and things I don't like. I have yet to re-purchase a Mac ever since owning my first computer which was a Mac 512 kb :)
I will admit that, like Jason, I have always been impressed with Mac styling and the fact that they try and stay ahead of the technology curve in most respects (CPU and USB2 aside :wink: )
On a final note, my friend who works in advertising and has always used Macs gets just as many crashes on OS 9 and OS X as I do with my Win boxes. These things aren't crash proof, no matter who makes them, butIt's nice to see that both sides have improved remarkably on this front. Lets face it folks, neither is perfect so just use the one that does the job for you.

[brianchris]

you can also eject a CD by CTRL+Clicking the icon (yes, like right-clicking) and selecting "Eject" :D. I guess the idea behind this was to keep everything OS based... no hardware buttons to confuse with software-based vitual eject buttons.

Your answer is exactly my point about the right click issue and Macs in general.....no hardware right click, no hardware CD eject, etc. And why is this?

a) A knowlegable proponent of Macs (WiredGuy) is not entirely sure: "I guess the idea behind this was" and b) to not confuse users....if your user base will be confused by a hardware right click or hardware button that says "eject," than there are larger problems with your user base. There is, of course, possability c) which is not including hardware right click and eject buttons just to be "different" (Jason made this point earlier) or even to conform to style over function. In my *opinion*, b) and c) are just not good answers.

Now, with that said, I don't think I've made this clear enough yet: I honestly and truly believe in different strokes for different folks. If you prefer a Mac, great, and likewise for a PC. And to the topic of switching platforms between Windows and Mac, except for a small minority, its a useless argument. I agree with a number of the last posts that indicate what's seems best is whatever you're used to. Kudos and congratulations to those that have happily made the jump, both ways. But the vast majority of the time, people are either used to (among other things) pressing an eject button, or dragging a CD icon to the trash icon.....take your pick.

-Brian

[klinux]

I too am a multi-PC @ home and work user who just got a 12" Mac. There is a price you pay for not having a 2.5 ghz chip in your laptop. But let's be honest here, what is the % of overall deskptop/laptop buyers that NEEDS 2.5 ghz processing speed.

True, Steve is delusional about the speed but what do you expect - Porsche to come out and say, yeah buy Ferrari if you want a really fast car?

Lastly, a simple anecdote on how Apple and PC hardware/software works together. On my iBook, I close a lid and it goes to sleep. It has a blinking light to tell me it's asleep. I open the lid and it is instant-on, just like my PocketPC. On my Sony laptop, I close my lid and it does not automatically go to sleep - I have to force it to hibernate (and trust me I have looked for the sleep setting - doesn't work). I have colleagues at work (I am in the IT department) that when they go to a meeting to do presentation, they carry their laptop with lids open because their laptop/Windows does not always wake from sleep.

[wiredguy]

Your answer is exactly my point about the right click issue and Macs in general.....no hardware right click, no hardware CD eject, etc. And why is this?

Well, when you think about it... why should there be hardware buttons? Haven't you ever had a Windows box bluescreen on you with a message like "put the CD back in, or I'll crash" :). The OS can give you the error before you pop out the CD, and say something like "if you pop out the CD, you will just need to put it back in" :).

a) A knowlegable proponent of Macs (WiredGuy) is not entirely sure: "I guess the idea behind this was" and b) to not confuse users....if your user base will be confused by a hardware right click or hardware button that says "eject," than there are larger problems with your user base. There is, of course, possability c) which is not including hardware right click and eject buttons just to be "different" (Jason made this point earlier) or even to conform to style over function. In my *opinion*, b) and c) are just not good answers.

You could take the same stand the other way around... saying Windows went with eject buttons to be different... point is, Mac has a different way of doing things. Am I, as a Mac user, supposed to know why they do every little thing they do? No, and I'm sure Windows users don't know why MS does a lot of the stuff they do :).

However, at the end of the day, Macs are much easier to use than PCs... that's something that even most PC users (if they have tried an OS X mac) will admit. Especially if they don't have a history with either OS. If they have been using PCs for a while, they may have gotten used to doing everything the hard way :).

Now, with that said, I don't think I've made this clear enough yet: I honestly and truly believe in different strokes for different folks. If you prefer a Mac, great, and likewise for a PC. And to the topic of switching platforms between Windows and Mac, except for a small minority, its a useless argument. I agree with a number of the last posts that indicate what's seems best is whatever you're used to. Kudos and congratulations to those that have happily made the jump, both ways. But the vast majority of the time, people are either used to (among other things) pressing an eject button, or dragging a CD icon to the trash icon.....take your pick.

Hmm... can't argue with you there :).

[pradike]

8O :roll: :twisted: :D
It boggles the mind .... those Apple users -

The only folks you'll see use those "fishbowls" are the artsy-fartsy types who do graphics stuff or very specialized digital music. Oh yeah, and a few people (like Volvo owners who think their cars are pretty???).

The only reason they still use them (although they'll deny it to their death bed) is that they are too lazy to re-learn everything on a REAL COMPUTER.

All that baloney in their recent adds about "now I can get reliability...." is 1975 propaganda garbage. I've seen thousands of computers in people's offices, people's homes, small businesses, and retail locations - NOT ONE WAS AN APPLE! Although I saw one at the end of a rope on a boat in the lake.

There's good reason - they are behind the times in USABLE technology and have not much new to offer (other than the flavor of the month coloring). They also do a lousy job of many of the things people REALLY WANT to use them for, and the software available for the MAC - yuck - 10,000 versions of Pong or Picture Editor ???????

This is a parallel to those Palm users who remain in denial that they bought a Pocket Protector index card filer, and not a device which can do so much more - like the Pocket PC.

I'm sure I've no offended about every group I can think of (except PC & PocketPC users - they're the only sane ones left)

So there!

(You asked for our opinions, you know).....

P.S...I bet George W. Bush has an APPLE (and some day, dog gone it, he's gonna turn it on and everything!)...opnly when its "prudent"....

[wiredguy]

8O :roll: :twisted: :D
It boggles the mind .... those Apple users -

The only folks you'll see use those "fishbowls" are the artsy-fartsy types who do graphics stuff or very specialized digital music. Oh yeah, and a few people (like Volvo owners who think their cars are pretty???).

The only reason they still use them (although they'll deny it to their death bed) is that they are too lazy to re-learn everything on a REAL COMPUTER.

All that baloney in their recent adds about "now I can get reliability...." is 1975 propaganda garbage. I've seen thousands of computers in people's offices, people's homes, small businesses, and retail locations - NOT ONE WAS AN APPLE! Although I saw one at the end of a rope on a boat in the lake.

There's good reason - they are behind the times in USABLE technology and have not much new to offer (other than the flavor of the month coloring). They also do a lousy job of many of the things people REALLY WANT to use them for, and the software available for the MAC - yuck - 10,000 versions of Pong or Picture Editor ???????

This is a parallel to those Palm users who remain in denial that they bought a Pocket Protector index card filer, and not a device which can do so much more - like the Pocket PC.

I'm sure I've no offended about every group I can think of (except PC &amp; PocketPC users - they're the only sane ones left)

So there!

(You asked for our opinions, you know).....

P.S...I bet George W. Bush has an APPLE (and some day, dog gone it, he's gonna turn it on and everything!)...opnly when its "prudent"....

Sounds like somebody hasn't been around for the past several years. The original colorful iMAC is no longer Apples popular item, and Mac is by no means behind in usable technology. Did you even bother to read the posts in this thread? Get educated before you embarrass yourself (maybe too late).

[klinux]

Don't feed the troll - or anything that can't form one coherent argument...

[tmhisey]

As I a long-time lurker on this site, it's finally time for me to speak up...

I am fully bilingual in both the Mac and PC worlds -- my first Microsoft software was a game -- Olympic Decathlon :wink: -- that ran on my Apple ][+ (which, of course, ran the Applesoft BASIC from MS). I moved over to Macs when those came out in 1984 and started working with PCs with the very first PC from IBM. I've been through every OS iteration on both sides, all the way up through Mac OSs 9 and X; and Windows 3.0 to the latest and greatest.

Through it all, I've seen the evolution in functionality, interfaces, and reliability. And, by and large, my observation is that whatever you find on the latest Windows OS cropped up on the previous Mac OS. (Inserting acknowledgment to Xeroc PARC right here so that no one jumps on the "Apple didn't invent the GUI or the mouse" bandwagon -- sorry, beat you to it. :P )

Apple did, however, invent many things or lead adoption of many things that you take for granted on your Windows PCs: ever use a TrueType font? Invented by Apple. Ever print from a laser printer? First laser printer to reach mass-manufactured status had an Apple logo on it. (No, they didn't invent it.). FireWire, of course, an Apple invention. Wide adoption of USB -- Apple. Wide adoption of CD-ROM -- Apple. (No, they didn't invent them -- they gave them critical mass.) WYSIWYG (which, since we all take it for granted these days, may be a term that has lost meaning to those who don't remember text-based word processors) -- Apple's GUI gave it to you long before you truly had it on Windows.

Now, to set aside the conspiracy theories of Steve Jobs not adopting mouses with more than one button :roll: ... Apple had the one button mouse from the outset. Not because two-button mice (never sure if it's not "mouses") didn't exist -- they did -- but because Apple's design philosophy is predicated on the concept of making things exquisitely simple to use.

A real world example would be a comparison of a presentation given by someone who thinks there's nothing better than fitting Encyclopedia Britannica (unabridged, of course) in 4 point font (point sizes were seen first on Macs, BTW) on each and every PowerPoint slide vs. someone who understands that less is more and that a PowerPoint slide with exactly the right words and visuals (even if a lot of blank space remains) is more powerful. (Maybe not the best example from someone who's using a whole lot of screen for this post :wink: )

Apple isn't the one being "different" because, for example, the Apple menu is in the upper right hand corner while the Start button is found on the lower left corner by default in the Windows OS -- the Apple menu is many years older (Win '95 - Mac 1984 = 11 years, BTW) and Microsoft opted for lower left to not look like a copycat...

I would say please don't forget (but I'm not sure how far back your memories go) -- it wasn't that many years ago (about 6) that Apple first slipped from it's position at the TOP of the market share list (that's TOTAL market share -- not just graphics design, education, etc.). It's debatable if that would have even happened if Apple hadn't lost its way in the mid 90s. :?

Since we're being off-topic, I won't spend too much time on the Newton issue other than to say that, yes, Jobs arrogance is why it is dead. :x I loved my Newton and didn't replace it until I found something that had many (but not all) of the same qualities: my iPAQ PPC. It's no coincidence, of course, that the PPC's handwriting recognition software is IDENTICAL to (one of two of) the HWR engine used on the Newton (though the version in PPC 2002 is updated).

Many of the folks at MS's PPC design team came from the Newton team when it was disbanded. That's, not coincidentally, when the PPC OS emerged from the chaos that was Win CE 2.0 and earlier. And, of course, the term "PDA" was coined by none other than John Scully, former Apple CEO and father of the Newton.

Hopefully I haven't provided too much flame bait here. :lol: My final thought is that not only should each user be left to the determine the solution with the value proposition that best meets his or her needs, but also that we should all be greatful that this competition exists because we are all the beneficiaries of the innovation that is driven by the race for market share.

When Apple was at the top of the heap, they stopped innovating and fell hard. If Apple (and Sun and BE and Linux and GNU, etc -- plus NetScape, Real, AOL, etc. -- plus Sony and Nintendo) weren't putting up some fierce competion, just think about how lazy and unmotivated MS could be :?:


The first post after a lengthy lurk tends to be a long one, I guess... 8O

Tom

[pradike]

8O 8O 8O
Hey Wired Guy - that WAS the point - the LifeSavers color fad (and lately the soccerball stand for the etch-a-sketch screen) ARE the only 2 new things from Apple in ages. Three generations behind in processing chips & overpriced boat anchor hardware just doesn't cut it...could be why it hasn't made it to mainstream in over 15 years - even the schools are throwing them out of there!

I have heard a rumor, however, that Steve Jobs is almost ready to release his Apple Mac to Sony Betamax interface for "top quality video"!

I still like the idea of gutting one to make a fishbowl, like another post suggested - by far the best use of an Apple.

After all, Apple has been a major pain for mankind ever since Eve....

By the way, you might want to rethink that pea-green Volvo you drive and that tie - oops sorry, a Christmas gift.....now who's embarrassing himself!

[klinux]

Don't mind the troll... moving on....

[wiredguy]

8O 8O 8O
Hey Wired Guy - that WAS the point - the LifeSavers color fad (and lately the soccerball stand for the etch-a-sketch screen) ARE the only 2 new things from Apple in ages. Three generations behind in processing chips &amp; overpriced boat anchor hardware just doesn't cut it...could be why it hasn't made it to mainstream in over 15 years - even the schools are throwing them out of there!

The only 2 new things? What about iPOD, Titanium Powerbook, Superdrive, XServe, 23" Flat-panel Cinema display, Airport wireless (before Wi-Fi was in PCs), OS X, iPhoto, iTunes... and the list goes on.

Compare that with what's new at Dell, HP, or Gateway. Ha ha.

By the way, you might want to rethink that pea-green Volvo you drive and that tie - oops sorry, a Christmas gift.....now who's embarrassing himself!

I don't drive a Volvo and rarely wear a ties. This is the last reply I give to your useless posts.

[bsoft]

"Who cares why Mac can make a more robust system"

I do. It sacrifices compatibility for reliability. I would much rather be able to build my own computer or buy it from any number of vendors than have to buy one brand.

For me it's a no brianer. My PC with Windows XP runs extremely well. Over thirty-five days of uptime as of now (This system was built forty days ago - but I upgraded the BIOS 35 days ago). I built system from the ground up from parts that I purchased online. I know everything and anything that went into my system. I chose my case becaus of it's appearence (it's not flashy - just a nice box with a good looking front panel and thumbscrews in the back), it's price ($35), size (13" tall), power supply (300W), brand (Enlight), and compatibility with my Abit NV7m motherboard ($70). My system is a budget system. By reusing some parts I had already (monitor, K/M, 32X TDK burner, DVD, XP liscence), buying a motherboard with integrated GeForce2 graphics, LAN, and audio, and by shopping around, I purchased a high-performance system for under $400. It took me about three hours to put it together (it would have taken two hours if I had figured out that I had my I/O shield in upside down), and another hour to install the OS. And, of course, it would take on a top-of-the-line G4 any day of the week (in benchmarks, at least).

I understand why people buy Macs. Heck, I used to want one. The hardware and software looks seriouslly cool. But, for me, that didn't matter. A good looking OS is nice for "wow" factor, but, for me, after the coolness wears off the only thing that matters is getting work (and fun) done. XP works fine for that. It runs the games that I want to play and the applications that I have to use. I can develop for my Pocket PC or write programs for my friends. I even run a little WAP portal for myself. Don't tell me that a $1300 Mac can do that better than my $400 PC. Sure, you can do that with a Mac, but I can do it with my PC that costs less than a third as much.

Mac laptops are, however, the exception. They are actually resonably priced. For $1300, I can get a POS Dell laptop or an, albeit low-end iBook. The choice is simple: the iBook is smaller, lighter, and it looks cooler. If I could build my own laptop, then circumstances would be different.

I don't hate Macs. I just think that you get more value with a PC. And, trust me, I'm on a strict budget.

[Jason Dunn]

For example, Mac was the first to have Nvidia GForce4 graphics cards... important for gaming, no?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you got GeForce4 MX right? And then a few weeks later the PC world got that and the Ti versions? And the best graphics card you can get in the Mac right now is the MX? I have an MX, and it's not bad, but it's NOT a great gaming card - not enough GPU power for that. So I don't think this is something you should be bragging about - and the only reason you got that is because ATI blew the lid on the new iMacs before Jobs was ready, Jobs got pissed, and ATI got the boot - his ego runs the company. That's a little scary to me. :lol:

[brianchris]

However, at the end of the day, Macs are much easier to use than PCs... that's something that even most PC users (if they have tried an OS X mac) will admit. Especially if they don't have a history with either OS. If they have been using PCs for a while, they may have gotten used to doing everything the hard way :).


I'm sorry, I disagree that Macs are (more) inuitave.....its difficult to tell in Macs at a *glance* how many running programs you have open, and to switch between them....you've had to (again at least before OSX, and maybe still) click on an icon in the Apple taskbar to see and switch between running programs. Windows has had (since Win95) the taskbar, which not only shows and alows you to switch between running programs at a galnce, but it can also be hidden if you choose.

I'm sorry, but take a person who just woke up from a 40 year coma and place them in front of either OS, I I'd bet decent money they figure out to click the apptly named "Start" button in Windows before they'd figure out to click the small Apple icon.

The menus in the static Apple taskbar change depending on what the program is active...now if you *really* think about it, that is confusing.

A hardware eject button is easier and more intuative than dragging an icon on top of another icon....sorry.

These are just some examples. Yes, these are tiny, perhaps insignificant examples, but there the actual type of small "intuative" differences Mac users have been claiming OS suppiority in for quite some time, and I just don't buy it. Please, put down your OS baises and think about it....am I wrong? Maybe my own bais is blinding.....I guess it is a possability.

Like I said though, if all I had ever clicked to start programs was an Apple, maybe a Start button would not be intuitive....really??

A new point has been made though in recent posts that I also agree with.....competition is a good thing.

-Brian

[wiredguy]

"Who cares why Mac can make a more robust system"

I do. It sacrifices compatibility for reliability. I would much rather be able to build my own computer or buy it from any number of vendors than have to buy one brand.

For me it's a no brianer. My PC with Windows XP runs extremely well. Over thirty-five days of uptime as of now (This system was built forty days ago - but I upgraded the BIOS 35 days ago). I built system from the ground up from parts that I purchased online. I know everything and anything that went into my system. I chose my case becaus of it's appearence (it's not flashy - just a nice box with a good looking front panel and thumbscrews in the back), it's price ($35), size (13" tall), power supply (300W), brand (Enlight), and compatibility with my Abit NV7m motherboard ($70). My system is a budget system. By reusing some parts I had already (monitor, K/M, 32X TDK burner, DVD, XP liscence), buying a motherboard with integrated GeForce2 graphics, LAN, and audio, and by shopping around, I purchased a high-performance system for under $400. It took me about three hours to put it together (it would have taken two hours if I had figured out that I had my I/O shield in upside down), and another hour to install the OS. And, of course, it would take on a top-of-the-line G4 any day of the week (in benchmarks, at least).

I understand why people buy Macs. Heck, I used to want one. The hardware and software looks seriouslly cool. But, for me, that didn't matter. A good looking OS is nice for "wow" factor, but, for me, after the coolness wears off the only thing that matters is getting work (and fun) done. XP works fine for that. It runs the games that I want to play and the applications that I have to use. I can develop for my Pocket PC or write programs for my friends. I even run a little WAP portal for myself. Don't tell me that a $1300 Mac can do that better than my $400 PC. Sure, you can do that with a Mac, but I can do it with my PC that costs less than a third as much.

Mac laptops are, however, the exception. They are actually resonably priced. For $1300, I can get a POS Dell laptop or an, albeit low-end iBook. The choice is simple: the iBook is smaller, lighter, and it looks cooler. If I could build my own laptop, then circumstances would be different.

I don't hate Macs. I just think that you get more value with a PC. And, trust me, I'm on a strict budget.

For you, it may be better to build your own PC, cause you seem like a smart tech guy. However, what do the non-tech people do with a bunch of computer parts? They would have to pay you or another tech guy $100 an hour to put the darn thing together, install the OS, and get it up and running :).

Oh, and what if something goes wrong down the road... they have to call you back to fix it. There goes the cost savings.

This is also the reason most computer repair people won't admit Mac is better... they would be out of a job :).

I'm sure an auto mechanic could explain why buiding your own car from spare parts is worth it... but wouldn't you rather pay more for a car you can rely on (if you weren't a mechanic)? I believe that's how non-tech people look at the computer market.

---------------------------------

another bit... the iMac is made like an appliance. You don't worry about upgrading your microwave, toaster, or oven too often. Likewise, the iMac is a working computer that upon purchasing it... it just works. You can get more software for it... but you don't have to worry about taking it apart, or anything like that. I think PCs will eventually go in that direction too.

[Jason Dunn]

Here are two more myths for you:

It is a myth that PCs crash more often than PCs.
It is a myth that Macs crash less often than PCs.

I've been on PCs that have been running for months at a time (like my wife's Dell) and Macs that crashed constantly (like the ones I used back in college). You can poorly configure a Mac just as easily as a PC. I will grant you that it's easier to create an unstable PC by putting in old and crappy hardware, but if you use the same name-brand components in each system, the PC will cost less and be just as stable (if not more so).

This is fun. :lol:

[ricktakagi]

hey brian,

I think you'll find all of those things you mentioned in OSX. The new dock is located right on the front of the screen.

Rick

[wiredguy]

Here are two more myths for you:

It is a myth that PCs crash more often than PCs.
It is a myth that Macs crash less often than PCs.

I've been on PCs that have been running for months at a time (like my wife's Dell) and Macs that crashed constantly (like the ones I used back in college). You can poorly configure a Mac just as easily as a PC. I will grant you that it's easier to create an unstable PC by putting in old and crappy hardware, but if you use the same name-brand components in each system, the PC will cost less and be just as stable (if not more so).

This is fun. :lol:

Another Myth for you... PCs are less expensive to own.

PCs require more support (many tech jobs exist only because PCs have so many issues.
PCs lack intuitive interfaces, wasting users valuable time
Lack of standards can cost hundreds in repurchasing accessories

If an employee wastes 20 minutes each day due to software complications... the wasted money can add up very quickly. Intuitive software is underrated, and thus PC users don't realize there is something better out there :).

Need service and support. Dell charges up to $566 USD for installation ($139), 4-year support ($348), and a lesson on using Windows ($79). You don't have to buy this, but the average non-techie would probably end up spending the same amount down the road in support and service costs anyway.

[Rob Alexander]

Lots of them use firewire ports - you might have heard of those. They were invented by Mac(YES, they were).

No, they really weren't. IEEE 1394 was originally conceived, but not developed, by Apple. It was developed by a consortium of industry players (pretty much all of the big names) under an IEEE working group. Should Apple get credit for the idea? Absolutely. Should they get credit for the development (the actual invention) of it? No more than any of the other members.

Just check out the official IEEE 1394 consumer information site at http://www.askfor1394.com/ for the details.

[ricktakagi]

I think we need to also keep in mind that talking about macs from OS 9 down aren't even in the same ballpark anymore and pretty much a waste of time. It's like talking about windows 3.0 and how it's so unstable.

I think it's great to read reviews that are getting people excited about an OS again.

I was just talking to a friend about this thread and saying how cool it is to see so many people using the Mac OS. Hopefully some of the people basing their opinions on the old systems will take a look at OS X and see what the people using it are talking about.


Rick T.

[tmhisey]

...its difficult to tell in Macs at a *glance* how many running programs you have open, and to switch between them....you've had to (again at least before OSX, and maybe still) click on an icon in the Apple taskbar to see and switch between running programs. Windows has had (since Win95) the taskbar, which not only shows and alows you to switch between running programs at a galnce, but it can also be hidden if you choose.

You're referring to pre OS X with regards to the Finder menu in the upper right hand corner that shows the application with focus and lists the other running apps. For many OS versions now, that menu has had "tear off" functionality where you can rip it right off the menu bar and turn it into a floating window. That will let you easily see and click on any running app... :!:

And, of course, in OS X the Dock not only shows you every running application, 8) it really shows you every running application! :D If you haven't seen this first hand, run down to your local Apple dealer and check it out. If you have a video clip running (QuickTime, Windows Media, whatever) and minimize it -- it will "magically" shrink itself down into an icon in the dock at the bottom of the screen BUT it will keep on playing (if you can watch full-motion video in the size of a postage stamp, you wouldn't miss a beat). And that's not just for one video but for however many you choose to run and minimize.

Same thing goes for documents, pictures, etc. Not only does the Dock show you that the application is running, it shows you the miniature document in real time! 8) Something to look for in Windows XP 2005 maybe... :P


The menus in the static Apple taskbar change depending on what the program is active...now if you *really* think about it, that is confusing.

This again is an example of the elegance of simplicity. 8) Rather than wasting valuable screen real estate (which at the time the original Mac OS was being developed was even more of a premium than it is today) on multiple menu bars -- simply have one menu bar with the contents changing to reflect the application with focus. That gives you one place to look for pull-down menus and really created the concept of a "context-sensitive" GUI...

[wiredguy]

Lots of them use firewire ports - you might have heard of those. They were invented by Mac(YES, they were).

No, they really weren't. IEEE 1394 was originally conceived, but not developed, by Apple. It was developed by a consortium of industry players (pretty much all of the big names) under an IEEE working group. Should Apple get credit for the idea? Absolutely. Should they get credit for the development (the actual invention) of it? No more than any of the other members.

Just check out the official IEEE 1394 consumer information site at http://www.askfor1394.com/ for the details.

Yeah, but like USB... they actually standardized on it... and use it in most all of their computers. They put the effort in to make the technology a reality. There are so many cool things out there that computers should have (many are developed by consortium of industry players)... but nobody is willing to be the first... except Apple. That is why I like em.

[Rob Alexander]

Here's the deal: Mac users have always been into keyboard short-cuts(another Mac OS Innovation that was mimicked by Windows). EVERYTHING on a Mac has a keyboard short-cut.

Here's the real deal. The keyboard shortcut is not a Mac innovation. I used keyboard shortcuts on early hobby computers, on a Commodore 64, and on DOS-based PCs years before the Mac even existed. What exactly to you think those Ctrl, Alt and Function keys are for? Next you'll be telling us how the keyboard itself was a Mac innovation. Sheesh, no one denies that Apple is an innovative company; it's not necessary to invent spurious claims to lay on top of the legitimate ones.

When the time came to add a second functionality to the mouse button, Apple decided to leave the hardware alone and add a keyboard-modifier.

On the other hand, this certaily doesn't sound very innovative. In fairness, you should be able to admit when they've let a great idea pass by simply because they don't want to be seen as adopting PC technology. They missed the boat on this one.

[Jason Dunn]

Another Myth for you... PCs are less expensive to own. PCs require more support (many tech jobs exist only because PCs have so many issues. PCs lack intuitive interfaces, wasting users valuable time Lack of standards can cost hundreds in repurchasing accessories

Says who? If you have an URL with proof, I'll gladly take a look at it, but the whole "Macs have a lower TCO" is iffy to me - PCs have solid standards just like the Mac (jeese - they're the same standards: PCI, AGP, Firewire, USB, etc.). PCs lack intuitive interfaces? Says who? My mom can figure out XP just fine, so I don't buy that for a second.

More marketing hype spouted by Apple in an attempt to scare people away from the PC.

[wiredguy]

Here's the deal: Mac users have always been into keyboard short-cuts(another Mac OS Innovation that was mimicked by Windows). EVERYTHING on a Mac has a keyboard short-cut.

Here's the real deal. The keyboard shortcut is not a Mac innovation. I used keyboard shortcuts on early hobby computers, on a Commodore 64, and on DOS-based PCs years before the Mac even existed. What exactly to you think those Ctrl, Alt and Function keys are for? Next you'll be telling us how the keyboard itself was a Mac innovation. Sheesh, no one denies that Apple is an innovative company; it's not necessary to invent spurious claims to lay on top of the legitimate ones.

When the time came to add a second functionality to the mouse button, Apple decided to leave the hardware alone and add a keyboard-modifier.

On the other hand, this certaily doesn't sound very innovative. In fairness, you should be able to admit when they've let a great idea pass by simply because they don't want to be seen as adopting PC technology. They missed the boat on this one.

As mentioned in other posts... You CAN get TWO BUTTON MICE for macs. They kept the single mouse button to simplify the concept for beginners. When you first start out using a PC, two buttons is just one more confusing thing to learn. Yet, the advanced users can still buy two button mice.

[Jason Dunn]

Yeah, but like USB... they actually standardized on it... and use it in most all of their computers. They put the effort in to make the technology a reality.

PCs have had USB for YEARS. I'll admit that Apple adopted Firewire more quickly, but that's because their target market demanded it - video professionals needed it. Joe and Jane PC user were fine waiting until consumer-level cameras started shipping with Firewire. Most new PCs have Firewire - every motherboard I saw at a store recently had USB 2.0, Firewire, ethernet - all built in.

[Rob Alexander]

Yeah, but like USB... they actually standardized on it... and use it in most all of their computers. They put the effort in to make the technology a reality. There are so many cool things out there that computers should have (many are developed by consortium of industry players)... but nobody is willing to be the first... except Apple. That is why I like em.

No question about it, Apple has brought us all some great ideas. They've been willing to take chances and try entirely different things. I like that about them too. Standardization is the strength of the PC world, but it's also a weakness as it takes more time for a large number of companies to shift direction than it does a single company. But expandability is a strength of PCs too and I've had Firewire on my PC for three years now, longer than it's been standard on Macs.

[brianchris]

I think we need to also keep in mind that talking about macs from OS 9 down aren't even in the same ballpark anymore and pretty much a waste of time. It's like talking about windows 3.0 and how it's so unstable.

I think it's great to read reviews that are getting people excited about an OS again.

I was just talking to a friend about this thread and saying how cool it is to see so many people using the Mac OS. Hopefully some of the people basing their opinions on the old systems will take a look at OS X and see what the people using it are talking about.


Rick T.

I have a great deal of repect for OSX, without having used it a lot and even before this thread. But you can't say OS9 is like comparing Windows 3.0.......OS9 is only one generation old now, and is still in much wider use (I believe) than OSX.....Windows 3.0 is barely used now. Was OS9 and all things before it really that bad, and therefore is OSX really that much of a step forward? If the answer is yes, we agree, as I have not used OSX and don't think much of OS9 or previous Apple opertaing systems.

As I said, OSX even caught my old crusty PC eye, and no doubt has a LOT of improvements......will *I* switch for my personal PC? No, but a new iMac for the wife in the kitchen on my home 802.11b net, maybe :wink:

-Brian

[Foo Fighter]

Just posted at Anchordesk:

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2876696,00.html

[Rob Alexander]

Here are two more myths for you:

It is a myth that PCs crash more often than PCs.
It is a myth that Macs crash less often than PCs.

I've been on PCs that have been running for months at a time (like my wife's Dell) and Macs that crashed constantly (like the ones I used back in college). You can poorly configure a Mac just as easily as a PC. I will grant you that it's easier to create an unstable PC by putting in old and crappy hardware, but if you use the same name-brand components in each system, the PC will cost less and be just as stable (if not more so).

This is fun. :lol:

Exactly right. I know plenty of people whose Macs crash and plenty of PC users whose PCs don't. My PCs almost never crash. The reason? First, I've been using the NT family of Windows since 4.0 (now on WinXP). There is no way to achieve serious stability on the Win9x line, so don't bother trying. But Windows 2000 and XP are very solid. Second, I use high quality components that are listed in WinXP's hardware compatibility list. Third, I don't install and uninstall millions of crappy shareware programs that leave spare .dll's and registry entries hanging around. Fourth, (at work) I don't install drivers that aren't MS certified. Fifth, I run my computers on UPS's. My work computer runs 24/7 and hasn't crashed since I unpacked it last November.

I play a little looser at home with drivers because I use a wider variety of hardware for DV editing, music and so forth, but I haven't crashed more than once or twice this year and it has always been associated with updating a driver or something similar.

Now a Mac user might look at this list and say, "yeah, but I don't have to follow all those rules," and they'd be right to some extent. Apple forces you on some of those issues, and the others (poor quality software and lack of a UPS) are things that can bring a Mac down just as quick as a PC. But in return for taking on some of that responsibility for myself, I have complete control over my system, the option to buy from the widest possible range of hardware products, and software options that come with using the dominant operating system.

Can you make a PC crash-prone? Sure, but it's really not that hard to have a totally solid system. The idea that Macs are inherently more stable than PCs is simply not true.

[wiredguy]

Yeah, but like USB... they actually standardized on it... and use it in most all of their computers. They put the effort in to make the technology a reality.

PCs have had USB for YEARS. I'll admit that Apple adopted Firewire more quickly, but that's because their target market demanded it - video professionals needed it. Joe and Jane PC user were fine waiting until consumer-level cameras started shipping with Firewire. Most new PCs have Firewire - every motherboard I saw at a store recently had USB 2.0, Firewire, ethernet - all built in.

Correct :), it has had it for years... but Mac standardized on it years before that. That's my only point.

[cpoole]

Another Myth for you... PCs are less expensive to own. PCs require more support (many tech jobs exist only because PCs have so many issues. PCs lack intuitive interfaces, wasting users valuable time Lack of standards can cost hundreds in repurchasing accessories

Says who? If you have an URL with proof, I'll gladly take a look at it, but the whole "Macs have a lower TCO" is iffy to me - PCs have solid standards just like the Mac (jeese - they're the same standards: PCI, AGP, Firewire, USB, etc.). PCs lack intuitive interfaces? Says who? My mom can figure out XP just fine, so I don't buy that for a second.

More marketing hype spouted by Apple in an attempt to scare people away from the PC.

I did read a Gartner Group report back in the mid to late 90's that indicated a small savings per seat (in an enterprise environment) by using a mac over a pc. That report was released before the widespread use of USB, Windows XP, Direct X, plug and play, windows update over the internet, etc... It would be interesting to see a current study by them.

About 7 years ago, there may have been 25% Apple computers in our department. Now there is about 2% Apple and 23% Linux and Solaris :wink:

[wiredguy]

Another Myth for you... PCs are less expensive to own. PCs require more support (many tech jobs exist only because PCs have so many issues. PCs lack intuitive interfaces, wasting users valuable time Lack of standards can cost hundreds in repurchasing accessories

Says who? If you have an URL with proof, I'll gladly take a look at it, but the whole "Macs have a lower TCO" is iffy to me - PCs have solid standards just like the Mac (jeese - they're the same standards: PCI, AGP, Firewire, USB, etc.). PCs lack intuitive interfaces? Says who? My mom can figure out XP just fine, so I don't buy that for a second.

More marketing hype spouted by Apple in an attempt to scare people away from the PC.

Proof? Here's just one source:

- http://138.202.192.14/~trembath/smon/tco.html (published 07/21/2002)

Here's a few great quotes:

"The average Wintel home user spends around 50 hours per year troubleshooting their computer, while the average Mac user spends less than 5."

"Note that when the Dean's Office migrated to PC's, the total support cost to implement the move ($750/machine) nearly equaled the cost of some low-end desktops. And that is just technical support, NOT cost of purchase, staff re-training, machine downtime, etc."

"Speaking of viruses, OS X has been attacked by some 300 known viruses. Windows machines have been attacked by more than 50,000."

"If you want to work for the machine, go with Windows. If you want the machine to work for you, go with the Mac."

"Macintosh computers are cheaper to buy and maintain, [with] one study putting them at 25% cheaper to maintain than Windows-based systems." (The study was conducted by the Gartner Group.)

"The Deputy Superintendent for Instruction and Technology for the Conroe School District (suburb of Houston, TX) conducted an extensive survey of platform usage in the 14 western states and concluded that the MacOS is far better for education. Many of the reasons are similar to those already suggested here (ease of installation and maintenance, networking, stability, etc.).

[wiredguy]

Just posted at Anchordesk:

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2876696,00.html

That's really exciting news... for both PC and Mac users. The competition will really pay off for consumers... innovation, price cuts, and more!

[Foo Fighter]

That's really exciting news... for both PC and Mac users. The competition will really pay off for consumers... innovation, price cuts, and more!

Best of all, we won't have to listen to RISC zealots preaching anymore of this "700mhz G4 beats 2.5ghz P4" nonsense.

[szamot]

[ She added more memory, hooked up a scanner, printer, and a USB hub without any help from anyone. This was her first exposure to a personal computer. Now she scans photos of her handmade quilts and sells them to people all around the world. .[/quote]

oh brother, let's look at this in simplified terms, if there was only HP that made PC's and there was only HP that made printers and scanners then PC world would be just as easy as the MAC world is. Think about the choices you have with the MAC and with PC and soon you will understand the magnitude of complications you are faced with when owning a PC. I like the choice of a 1001 printers for my PC not 2, etc... think about, sleep on then flame me.

[Foo Fighter]

I like the choice of a 1001 printers for my PC not 2, etc... think about, sleep on then flame me.

I see your point, but you are greatly exaggerating the peripheral availability issue. I don't even know of a printer on the market today that doesn't work with a Mac. Same with scanners. As long as it has a USB port, it will work with a Mac.

[Weyoun6]

I'm sorry but this whole mac vs pc discussion reminds me of something...

oh that was it! Palm vs. PPC

Apple = simple
PC = powerful

palm = simple
ppc = powerful

hmm

[bsoft]

sHere are two more myths for you:

It is a myth that PCs crash more often than PCs.
It is a myth that Macs crash less often than PCs.

I've been on PCs that have been running for months at a time (like my wife's Dell) and Macs that crashed constantly (like the ones I used back in college). You can poorly configure a Mac just as easily as a PC. I will grant you that it's easier to create an unstable PC by putting in old and crappy hardware, but if you use the same name-brand components in each system, the PC will cost less and be just as stable (if not more so).

This is fun. :lol:

Another Myth for you... PCs are less expensive to own.

PCs require more support (many tech jobs exist only because PCs have so many issues.
PCs lack intuitive interfaces, wasting users valuable time
Lack of standards can cost hundreds in repurchasing accessories

If an employee wastes 20 minutes each day due to software complications... the wasted money can add up very quickly. Intuitive software is underrated, and thus PC users don't realize there is something better out there :).

Need service and support. Dell charges up to $566 USD for installation ($139), 4-year support ($348), and a lesson on using Windows ($79). You don't have to buy this, but the average non-techie would probably end up spending the same amount down the road in support and service costs anyway.

Maybe there are more people who troubleshoot PCs because THERE ARE MORE PCs. "If an employee wastes 20 minutes each day due to software complications" - Software complications, slow and bloated GUI with "effects" that interfere with efficency - it's all the same.

"Intuitive software is underrated, and thus PC users don't realize there is something better out there :)."

Actually, the opposite is true. Mac users don't realize that PCs aren't what they were ten years ago - or five years ago for that matter. Have you even looked at Windows recently? It's every bit as intuitive as a Mac. You have the "Start" menu, with all of your documents, settings, and programs. You have the notification area, with system info, the clock, and other utilities. You have the desktop with, well, nothing but the recycle bin - just as it should be. And you have the taskbar, with open programs and documents. When you add hardware, it installs itself. In many cases, you don't even need drivers. The first time I plugged in my Logitech mouse and joystick, they worked. Digital Camera? Worked, and even brought up the photo transfer wizard. 2nd network card? New GPU? New sound card? No problem. No drivers. They just worked.

[wiredguy]

I'm sorry but this whole mac vs pc discussion reminds me of something...

oh that was it! Palm vs. PPC

Apple = simple
PC = powerful

palm = simple
ppc = powerful

hmm

Umm.... actually the Apple is simple and powerful, while PC is complex and overrated.

[wiredguy]

What's wrong with this?
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/files/1906_1028697720.png

There are a lot of things wrong with that :). First off, I'm also a PC user... and the first thing I did with my Win XP box was change it back to the Win2K start menu.

The default settings for XP can make a simple task, like opening a program, take 10-20 seconds... open start menu, watch start menu animation, hold mouse on "programs", watch menu animation as the program list appears, click the arrow button at bottom of programs list to display "all" programs, find right program folder, and launch application.... whew :).

Actually, the opposite is true. Mac users don't realize that PCs aren't what they were ten years ago - or five years ago for that matter. Have you even looked at Windows recently? It's every bit as intuitive as a Mac. You have the "Start" menu, with all of your documents, settings, and programs. You have the notification area, with system info, the clock, and other utilities. You have the desktop with, well, nothing but the recycle bin - just as it should be. And you have the taskbar, with open programs and documents. When you add hardware, it installs itself. In many cases, you don't even need drivers. The first time I plugged in my Logitech mouse and joystick, they worked. Digital Camera? Worked, and even brought up the photo transfer wizard. 2nd network card? New GPU? New sound card? No problem. No drivers. They just worked.

I think you will find your experience is out of the norm. If you haven't had any trouble adding accessories to your PC, consider yourself lucky.

I consider myself fairly smart when it comes to both PCs and Macs... and I've had PC issues that I still haven't resolved (I've had to learn to live with them). Even a few tech buddies have just given up on trying to help me out.

For example, I can't have a CF card reader and a Memory Stick reader both plugged into my computer at one time. Another, I have to turn my HP Jornada on before putting it into the cradle... otherwise it will open a USB device utility trying to create a new configuration. I followed through with that configuration once... won't make that mistake again :). Yet another, Internet Explorers status bar mysteriously disables itself constantly... this is still happening although I have reinstalled XP since (not just for that issue :)). I keep up with all Windows Update fixes... but nothing has solved my XP problems... the three above are just examples... trust me, there are a lot more :).

[wiredguy]

oh brother, let's look at this in simplified terms, if there was only HP that made PC's and there was only HP that made printers and scanners then PC world would be just as easy as the MAC world is. Think about the choices you have with the MAC and with PC and soon you will understand the magnitude of complications you are faced with when owning a PC. I like the choice of a 1001 printers for my PC not 2, etc... think about, sleep on then flame me.

Yes, if HP did it all, it would be just as easy... but they don't. That's sorta the point of this whole discussion :). Mac does what PC's can't do... end to end solutions.

Oh, and like Foo Fighter said... you can use basically any USB printer and/or scanner with a Mac now... and have been able to for a while.

I'm starting to get frustrated by the comments coming from un-mac-educated PC folks. I used the be in the same position... but I've learned a lot since then.

[brianchris]

Yes, if HP did it all, it would be just as easy... but they don't. That's sorta the point of this whole discussion :). Mac does what PC's can't do... end to end solutions.



Gasp....are you saying WiredGuy, that while Microsoft dables in Anti-trust activities, Apple is a full fledge monopoly i.e. little choice? (well, except for that market share thing) :wink: :wink:

-Brian

[klinux]

Rob - Would you call yourself an average PC user? That's right, you're not. not. While it is great that you don't experience the myriads of problem that 99% of Windows users experience them on a daily basis.

[klinux]

Yes, if HP did it all, it would be just as easy... but they don't. That's sorta the point of this whole discussion :). Mac does what PC's can't do... end to end solutions.



Gasp....are you saying WiredGuy, that while Microsoft dables in Anti-trust activities, Apple is a full fledge monopoly i.e. little choice? (well, except for that market share thing) :wink: :wink:

-Brian

They say the only major difference is whether you want Bill to rule the world or Steve. :)

[szamot]

I'm starting to get frustrated by the comments coming from un-mac-educated PC folks. I used the be in the same position... but I've learned a lot since then.

humm...actually Apple IIe was the first PC i had, through high school I was tortured on the Mac and since I was in ED it followed me through university years. So I would not say that I was un-MAC-educated flok - I just grew out of it, perhaps even grew up and got what actually worked for me not what came in a pretty colored box...

PS. Only farmers from Manitoba and Saskatchewan use the word FOLK not sophisticated masses of Van....or do they now?

[wiredguy]

Yes, if HP did it all, it would be just as easy... but they don't. That's sorta the point of this whole discussion :). Mac does what PC's can't do... end to end solutions.



Gasp....are you saying WiredGuy, that while Microsoft dables in Anti-trust activities, Apple is a full fledge monopoly i.e. little choice? (well, except for that market share thing) :wink: :wink:

-Brian

Microsoft isn't in trouble with the DOJ just for being a Monopoly... they are in trouble for how they used or attempted to use their Monopoly power to knock off other companies. Bill Gates himself talked with Compaq about bundling IE to take down Netscape... and related items.

Yes, I agree... it would be no better if Apple ruled the industry. However, 50/50 marketshare would be a win for consumers. Especially if the Operating Systems become more and more compatible (as is the case with Jaguar, OS 10.2), so there is virtually no downside to having two types of computers everywhere.

[michaelalanjones]

I hate Mac with a passion since the day it ate my mid term paper in school's lab. And strangely they also start to replace those useless quadra with PC's.

Do you realize how trite this sounds? So you can tell me for a fact that a PC has never "eaten" any of your work? Not! Sometimes that happens with computers, especially older ones that are not maintained with newer software. PC's are always getting new software, because they are always being replaced about every year, or they get free pirated software.

As far as "replacing those useless Quadras", colleges and high schools do that based on what kind of freebee deals they can get, not what they think is better. Welcome to capitalism. Dell has been recently winning those battles at a lot of colleges, by giving away computers for a little over cost. Apple is not willing to to give away computers.

[pradike]

:lol: :lol: :lol: 8O
So far, there are 37 response posts (mostly from Wired Guy) responding to comments pointing out flaws in the Apple case of perceived superiority.

NONE make a sound case. The bottom line is the bottom line (as they say in business)....Apple is trying to hold their head above water quarter to quarter, while Microsoft makes Billions.

The reason they are a monopoly is that they sold products that were widely accepted to the marketplace. Apple has not. And for hundreds of reasons pointed out in this thread.

Perhaps Steve Jobs can get a job writing the script for Star Trek 11 (the movie) - after all, he has a nack for science fiction. Or maybe its back to his garage for the next "surprise" invention.

WINTEL has flaws in their products. Apple does too.

There is NO advantage Apple has over the WINTEL world at this time. If the artsy folks decided to learn some of the great Imaging, Graphic, Desktop Publishing, and other software available for WINTEL - Apple would be dead. Its great stuff that I've used, and others have used in our business - no complaints. Apple's death will be the result of over 10 years of non-innovation for ANY THING SIGNIFICANT (Wired Guy - the Ipod is hardly "significant").

As we started this journey down this road at the beginning with Jason Dunn - he told it like it was - Apple is a Myth....just like the Desoto, Edsel, Hudson, Gremlin, and other dinosaur cars were. There is a common thread - they thought they were innovative and had new "looks" too...only to find out that the American public had NO INTEREST IN THINGS UGLY, STUPID, OR OVERPRICED (and no value added features).

My guess is Apple is dead or owned by someone else (trying to keep it afloat) within 18 months - my guess is Sony (all baloney) may make a try - the folks that brought you the Betamax. Maybe they'll bring back OS/2 to run on the Mac - that would only be fitting! And I bet they're already thinking about 5 1/4" floppy drives in it to put a "smile" look on the front of the pink boxes they'll come in. And they are probably consider 8-track tape drives for "long term storage".

He who laughs last, laughs best - and most of us are already giggling at Apple and trying to hold in the loud laughter every time we see one of their ANAL APPLE commercials.

This is us (Wired Guy is on the right)...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 8O

[Jason Dunn]

Another reason why I dislike Apple: in their own way, they are a far more brutal monopoly than Microsoft ever has been.

Case in point: I think it was 1995 or 1996 when Apple first started licensing their OS to "clone" makers in a bid to gain more market share against the PC. It worked for Microsoft right? Well, when Umax and Power Computing (I think) came out with cheaper Mac-compatible computers (and there were other vendors), the "Mac faithful" all bought those! Apple was stunned - they were selling very few computers, and their profits came from inflated hardware prices as well as the OS. They assumed that people loved the Apple hardware - but people really loved the Apple OS and UI. So what did they do? In 1997 the revoked the licenses. It immediately put entire divisions of people out of work and forced several companies to scramble just to stay alive - I'm willing to bet it put several entire companies out of business.

This would be the equivalent of Microsoft refusing to sell licenses of XP to Dell, HP, etc. It would kill or severely disable, all those companies overnight.

So who's the big bad monopoly now? If Microsoft did that, the government would step in. Apple did it, and no one cared because they hold such a small share in the overall market, but I find their actions to be particularly bloodthirsty.

[Jason Dunn]

If you have a single mouse button, you just CTRL+Click to get right mouse button results. I keep my left hand on the keyboard for ALT+TAB, Cut, Copy, and Paste anyway... so now it just does the right click menus too.

Ok, so instead of being able to do things with one hand, you require two. How is that an advantage? It amazes me that instead of admitting that, yes, it's a disadvantage compared to Windows, you're trying to put a POSITIVE spin on it! Just admit that it's a short-coming. :D

[Foo Fighter]

Oh God. This is quite possibly the most ignorant post yet.


The bottom line is the bottom line (as they say in business)....Apple is trying to hold their head above water quarter to quarter, while Microsoft makes Billions.

That is total BS. Apple and Dell are the only two companies making money in the market right now. Apple has over 4 billion in cash.

Let's see...Gateway's credit has been slashed how many times? Junk status?

Take some business courses. Then we'll talk. :roll:

If the artsy folks decided to learn some of the great Imaging, Graphic, Desktop Publishing, and other software available for WINTEL - Apple would be dead.

LOL! This is a joke, right? The same "Great Imaging, Graphic, Desktop Publishing" software available for WinTel is also available for Mac. Photoshop, Illustrator, Freehand, Flash, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Premiere, Corel Draw, Painter, QuarkXpress, Indesign. All of these are industry standard tools. Did I miss something?

Wired Guy - the Ipod is hardly "significant".

Hardly significant? Analysts are forecasting that Apple could grab as much as 20% of the digital audio appliance market, totaling over 1 billion in sales. That significant enough for you?

My guess is Apple is dead or owned by someone else (trying to keep it afloat) within 18 months -

Oh dear God. Just when I think you can't possibly be anymore clueless...

Do you even know what Apple's portfolio looks like? I'm glad you aren't my stock manager.

He who laughs last, laughs best

After reading your post, I don't think I'll ever stop laughing. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

Well, when you think about it... why should there be hardware buttons?

Go take a look at any consumer appliance, from a VCR to a DVD player to a TV set - even with a remote, they still have some hardware buttons on the front of the unit. Pick any reason you want: simplicity, redundancy, whatever.

It's simple Apple arrogance to not realize that pressing a button on a tower is faster and easier than dragging some friggin' icon to another icon to get a CD or Floppy to eject.

Yet here you are, talking about it like it's an ADVANTAGE. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

That's really exciting news... for both PC and Mac users. The competition will really pay off for consumers... innovation, price cuts, and more!

Uh, no. Apple will not ALLOW you to save money. Apple will find a way to lock you to the hardware, because that's where they make a lot of their money - selling you those sexy semi-circles. :lol:

[Jason Dunn]

As long as it has a USB port, it will work with a Mac.

Not quite - without drivers you're hosed, and THAT'S the real issue - not every company is willing to invest in driver development for a small slice of a pie that's only 5% of the bigger pie.

[Jason Dunn]

They say the only major difference is whether you want Bill to rule the world or Steve. :)

I'll take Bill. Steve would require daily virginal sacrifices and much bowing and chanting - no thanks. :lol:

[Jason Dunn]

Another reason to dislike Apple:

They're charging $129 US for a .2 upgrade. That would be like Microsoft charging MORE than the cost of the OS ($99 for home) for SP1 for Windows.

And if the Mac OS is so stable and wonderful, why the hell have you needed so many patches and upgrades? I've lost track of whether it's at 10.1.2.4.5.6 or 10.1.2.4.5.7.

[Foo Fighter]

As long as it has a USB port, it will work with a Mac.

Not quite - without drivers you're hosed, and THAT'S the real issue -

Of course, but this isn't an issue. Find a printer at your local Staples, BB, or CC that doesn't support Mac? Epson, HP, Canon..all offer Mac compatibility.

[Jason Dunn]

Dell has been recently winning those battles at a lot of colleges, by giving away computers for a little over cost. Apple is not willing to to give away computers.

I believe the massive influx of Macs into schools was due to Apple dumping old model computers onto the schools for a vastly reduced cost - they were getting rid of old crap, not "enhancing" the schools.

[pradike]

Foo Fighter - your quote - "Oh God. This is quite possibly the most ignorant post yet."

:oops: Only if YOU don't understand it !!(nice icon - do you REALLY look like that?)


Here are some more "gems of ignorance" in your comments:

Apple and Dell are the only two companies making money in the market right now. Apple has over 4 billion in cash.

:lol: ACTUALLY STEVE PROBABLY HAS THE CASH. The other stockholders have IOUs. (See Enron).

The same "Great Imaging, Graphic, Desktop Publishing" software available for WinTel is also available for Mac. Photoshop, Illustrator, Freehand, Flash, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Premiere, Corel Draw, Painter, QuarkXpress, Indesign."

8O 8O THAT WAS THE POINT - WHY BUY A MAC - DUH!!!!! (See the movie Clueless).

Wired Guy - the Ipod is hardly "significant". Hardly significant? Analysts are forecasting that Apple could grab as much as 20% of the digital audio appliance market, totaling over 1 billion in sales. That significant enough for you?

:lol: 8O :lol: Those same analysts also forecast a 36,000 DOW average for 2002 (back in 1996). How's your portfolio today compared to 2 years ago...down...down...down...So much for their voodoo. (See Microsoft Money 2003)

Do you even know what Apple's portfolio looks like? I'm glad you aren't my stock manager.

:roll: :roll: ME TOO - I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHY YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE THAT APPLE SUCKS & IS DOOMED. (See Therapist).

After reading YOUR post, I don't think WE'LL ALL ever stop laughing. I really DO like your icon...its quite becoming......NOT!

:P :lol: :P :lol: :P :lol: :P :lol: :P

[Jason Dunn]

Epson, HP, Canon..all offer Mac compatibility.

Good point. But I was focusing more on the issue of "if it takes USB, it will work on a Mac". The drivers aren't always there for other devices...

[Jason Dunn]

Ok, pradike time to bring it down a notch or two - we're all friends here. :D

[wiredguy]

Another reason why I dislike Apple: in their own way, they are a far more brutal monopoly than Microsoft ever has been.

Case in point: I think it was 1995 or 1996 when Apple first started licensing their OS to "clone" makers in a bid to gain more market share against the PC. It worked for Microsoft right? Well, when Umax and Power Computing (I think) came out with cheaper Mac-compatible computers (and there were other vendors), the "Mac faithful" all bought those! Apple was stunned - they were selling very few computers, and their profits came from inflated hardware prices as well as the OS. They assumed that people loved the Apple hardware - but people really loved the Apple OS and UI. So what did they do? In 1997 the revoked the licenses. It immediately put entire divisions of people out of work and forced several companies to scramble just to stay alive - I'm willing to bet it put several entire companies out of business.

This would be the equivalent of Microsoft refusing to sell licenses of XP to Dell, HP, etc. It would kill or severely disable, all those companies overnight.

So who's the big bad monopoly now? If Microsoft did that, the government would step in. Apple did it, and no one cared because they hold such a small share in the overall market, but I find their actions to be particularly bloodthirsty.

Um, that is why we've all been saying it would be best to have 50/50 market share. I've read Animal Farm... I know what would happen to Apple if they got into big power.

[wiredguy]

If you have a single mouse button, you just CTRL+Click to get right mouse button results. I keep my left hand on the keyboard for ALT+TAB, Cut, Copy, and Paste anyway... so now it just does the right click menus too.

Ok, so instead of being able to do things with one hand, you require two. How is that an advantage? It amazes me that instead of admitting that, yes, it's a disadvantage compared to Windows, you're trying to put a POSITIVE spin on it! Just admit that it's a short-coming. :D

Yes, it takes to hands... but as many people have said... the single mouse button is designed for beginners. That is a key advantage, IMO. I remember when I was first getting started on computers (yeah, memory goes back a while :)).

The second mouse button concept was odd... because you could never tell when something can be right-clicked for more information. The cursor doesn't change to tell you what kind of right-click menu would show up, etc.

Apple put the single mouse button in, knowing all right-click menu content can be found in regular menus too. This way, the consumer doesn't have to get confused when they are just starting out... but CTRL+click is an option, and two button mice are readily available.

If you can't understand the possitive about having a single mouse button, then you've been using a PC for far to long to understand how beginners feel.

[wiredguy]

That's really exciting news... for both PC and Mac users. The competition will really pay off for consumers... innovation, price cuts, and more!

Uh, no. Apple will not ALLOW you to save money. Apple will find a way to lock you to the hardware, because that's where they make a lot of their money - selling you those sexy semi-circles. :lol:

Read the posts... we're talking 50/50 market share. That would be way better for consumers.

Who cares if the PCs were locked to Dell hardware, and Mac's were locked to Apple hardware (though I'm not sure that either will be the case)... that will still force innovation, lower prices, and many other benefits.

FYI, Microsoft Office has been known to go up in price by 40% for each new version. That wouldn't be happening if there was a little competition.

[wiredguy]

As long as it has a USB port, it will work with a Mac.

Not quite - without drivers you're hosed, and THAT'S the real issue - not every company is willing to invest in driver development for a small slice of a pie that's only 5% of the bigger pie.

So find me a name-brand printer that doesn't work with Mac :). My bet is, either they have their own drivers, or there is a generic driver that'll perform the task.

My key point here was... there are not only "2 printers" that work with mac. Basically anything with a real brand name works well, and thats all I'd ever buy with my PC anyway.

[wiredguy]

They say the only major difference is whether you want Bill to rule the world or Steve. :)

I'll take Bill. Steve would require daily virginal sacrifices and much bowing and chanting - no thanks. :lol:

I'd take a 50/50 split.

[wiredguy]

Another reason to dislike Apple:

They're charging $129 US for a .2 upgrade. That would be like Microsoft charging MORE than the cost of the OS ($99 for home) for SP1 for Windows.

And if the Mac OS is so stable and wonderful, why the hell have you needed so many patches and upgrades? I've lost track of whether it's at 10.1.2.4.5.6 or 10.1.2.4.5.7.

Have you read the feature list on Jaguar (10.2) (http://www.apple.com/macosx/). It's not exactly a Service Pack. One feature alone makes the price worth it for me...

Windows Networking Compatability... yes, you'll be able to login to a windows network, access network drives, and much more - with a Mac.

Also, connect five macs up on a hub... and they network configure themselves via Rendesvous.

There are over 150 new features.

Ya gotta do the research before tossing it aside as a service pack :D.

I know MS will be charging for Mira (whatever it's called now)... which is similar... but with far less "new" features.

[wiredguy]

Dell has been recently winning those battles at a lot of colleges, by giving away computers for a little over cost. Apple is not willing to to give away computers.

I believe the massive influx of Macs into schools was due to Apple dumping old model computers onto the schools for a vastly reduced cost - they were getting rid of old crap, not "enhancing" the schools.

Yeah... that or schools are buying up iBooks. You make the call...

- http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0202/19.maine.php

[Ashley Dunn]

On a final note, my friend who works in advertising and has always used Macs gets just as many crashes on OS 9 and OS X as I do with my Win boxes. These things aren't crash proof, no matter who makes them, butIt's nice to see that both sides have improved remarkably on this front. Lets face it folks, neither is perfect so just use the one that does the job for you.

I can entirely relate to the Mac OS 9.2 crashing. At work, I was doing some scanning on a Mac, and in a single day, I was forced to reboot the machine or close PhotoShop six or seven times. I had to hard reboot the machine probably three of those seven times. I also noticed that if I tried to play iTunes while scanning and editing the photos, the scanning and editing software would crash, and I would have to reboot. So, I sat in a quite office, slowly scanning one photo at a time to avoid having to reboot the machine or close down the app.

Kind of silly...especially since getting XP on my machine at home (a Dell 1.6GHz Christmas present :-) ), I think I've had to reboot for reasons other than software installs (ie: software crashes) maybe three times, and it's nearly a year old now.

As for my opinion other than what I've already posted, my family owned a Mac for many years while I was still in grade school, and my mom still has it set up in her home office. She doesn't use it any more, as she's got a Windows machine now, but I used to love the Mac. I've just come to appreciate the easy use of a PC for my own personal life. School work, Pocket PC and handheld syncing...even those few things are enough to keep me in the PC camp. :wink:

[Foo Fighter]

:lol: ACTUALLY STEVE PROBABLY HAS THE CASH. The other stockholders have IOUs. (See Enron).

This comment speaks for itself...utter stupidity.

8O 8O THAT WAS THE POINT - WHY BUY A MAC - DUH!!!!! (See the movie Clueless).

Uh..how about the cost of migration? You think Adobe and Macromedia are going to give you free software when transferring from Mac to PC? :roll:

:lol: 8O :lol: Those same analysts also forecast a 36,000 DOW average for 2002 (back in 1996). How's your portfolio today compared to 2 years ago...down...down...down...So much for their voodoo. (See Microsoft Money 2003)

It doesn't matter. The iPod is a successful product, and Apple is making very good margins on it.

:roll: :roll: ME TOO - I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHY YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE THAT APPLE SUCKS & IS DOOMED. (See Therapist).

I just love it when trolls present baseless opinion as fact. Pure flatulence.

[wiredguy]

I can entirely relate to the Mac OS 9.2 crashing. At work, I was doing some scanning on a Mac, and in a single day, I was forced to reboot the machine or close PhotoShop six or seven times. I had to hard reboot the machine probably three of those seven times. I also noticed that if I tried to play iTunes while scanning and editing the photos, the scanning and editing software would crash, and I would have to reboot. So, I sat in a quite office, slowly scanning one photo at a time to avoid having to reboot the machine or close down the app.

Kind of silly...especially since getting XP on my machine at home (a Dell 1.6GHz Christmas present :-) ), I think I've had to reboot for reasons other than software installs (ie: software crashes) maybe three times, and it's nearly a year old now.

As for my opinion other than what I've already posted, my family owned a Mac for many years while I was still in grade school, and my mom still has it set up in her home office. She doesn't use it any more, as she's got a Windows machine now, but I used to love the Mac. I've just come to appreciate the easy use of a PC for my own personal life. School work, Pocket PC and handheld syncing...even those few things are enough to keep me in the PC camp. :wink:

I came on board with Apple once OS X was launched, so I can't really comment on OS 9 flaws, bugs, etc. I used it a few times, never really liked the interface, but it seemed ok. What I know is...

I've used iTunes for OS X to play MP3s, rip a CD, and burn a CD simultaniously. No computer crash, no iTunes crash.

Also, if something was to go wrong with a poorly developed (cause it's not the OS's fault :)) 3rd party app... it never effects another running app, or OS X. I've had this happen with freeware games... and they just freeze, I open the CTRL+ALT+Delete mac-equivelent, and close it. All problems gone, no reboot, no visible lag. Oh yeah, and you never have to disk-defrag a Mac :).

My Win XP box (with 512 RAM) still has apps freeze each other - typically requiring a reboot... but that's just my experiences.

[wiredguy]

I just love it when trolls present baseless opinion as fact. Pure flatulence.

Yeah, that one's got a few screws loose. No research... yet he claims to know everything that's happening. Truely a guesswork miracle.

Fact is... Apple is doing well, and they have a real shot at MS over the next few years. Windows Networking compatability in OS X 10.2, XServe can pretend to be a windows server - no end user clients necessary (saving thousands), and very cool hardware... including iPOD :).

MS continues to dabble in uncessesary technologies - mira, tablet pc, xbox, etc... isntead of focusing on their OS and Software. It's like they've run out of ideas... so they are going on crazy tangents.

[Ashley Dunn]

PCs require more support (many tech jobs exist only because PCs have so many issues.
PCs lack intuitive interfaces, wasting users valuable time.

I don't get why some people think PCs have such hard interfaces to figure out. It just simply isn't so. If you can't figure out where to find something, all you need to do is click on the Start button, and you can more than likely find what you're looking for. I agree with the earlier comment about how it would be harder for someone unfamiliar with both operating systems to figure out that clicking on the apple would produce a "start type menu", as opposed to the bit START button on a PC machine.

And as for the PCs having more issues statement, I've had my machine for nearly a year, and have yet to call Dell for support. And no, Jason hasn't been Mr. Fix-It for me either. It just simply runs, does what it's supposed to, and life is grand.

[brianchris]

I know MS will be charging for Mira (whatever it's called now)... which is similar... but with far less "new" features.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Mira is much more a hardware development than a software develeopment.....basically, its a wireless Monitor employing 802.11b, which will allow you to access your same system from anywhere in the house / office. How's that for innovation Foo Fighter? Oh, it probably won't come in transparent ocean blue or slurpee lime green :wink:

Regardless, you can't compare Mira with a $129 OS update. Sorry wired guy, despite the hype and spin, it is just an OS update (again WinXP SP1 will be free, regardless of who wins on the minute feature count of the repective updates).

-Brian

[pradike]

:D :D
I guess that what REALLY MATTERS will be:

1) Does the device do what YOU really need & want it to do

2) Are you getting the usage benefits that are reasonable compared to your financial investment in the device, and

3) Does the lifespan of the technology exceed 3-4 years for YOUR NEEDS

If you answered yes to all 3 (regardless of PC or Apple user), it would seem that you are & should be pleased with your investment

Despite my personal distain for the Apple Mac & Steve Jobs...I can understand how there are different strokes for different folks...

...Just like me, sending this comment via 802.11b wireless on my Ipaq is perhaps extreme...it allowed me the luxury of eating in the kitchen & typing at the same location.

Have a happy Ipaq day! :D

[Jason Dunn]

Yeah... that or schools are buying up iBooks. You make the call...http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0202/19.maine.php

Wheee...one school buys some iBooks and you rejoice? Show me 1000 schools doing it and we'll talk.

[wiredguy]

Yeah... that or schools are buying up iBooks. You make the call...http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0202/19.maine.php

Wheee...one school buys some iBooks and you rejoice? Show me 1000 schools doing it and we'll talk.

Yeah, I guess one state buying 23,000 iBooks isn't that big. Times that by a thousand... so, they gotta sell 23 million to impress you? Ha ha

Oh yeah... and Florida ordered 3,000 new iMacs (the lamp stands), does that count for 2 of 1000?

[jefito]

Jason, it's not one school, but the entire state. And the number is 36,000, over 4 years.

Richard, you may note that the future of the laptop initiative is in some trouble, due to a $180 million shortfall in the Maine budget. http://news.mainetoday.com/indepth/laptops/

My own view on this (I am a Maine resident): the laptop initiative was a flawed idea from the start -- some kind of legacy building excercise for Angus King, the lame duck governor. Kids don't need to tote around expensive equipment in their already overloaded backpacks (not all kids will be allowed to take them home, but if that's the case, why laptops at all?) -- they need computers at home and at school, yes, but it would have been far better had the state provided funding to buy computers for kids whose families don't own them, and Internet access, then built up the school infrastructure to make use of the expanded computer facilities.
[/url]

[jefito]

This topic (Mac vs. PC) is so old as to be incredibly tedious (even though Richard Ketterer gets the Iron Ribbon of Tenacity award for responding to each and every criticism of the Mac posted, usually with the same old shopworn myths that have been in use all of these years). Lotta heat, not much light.

Anyways, cruising elsewhere turned up a little anti-Mac zealot article that I thought was amusing, and maybe speaks to the thread, if not the issue:

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/07/MacWorldRumors.shtml

[Jason Dunn]

From http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/07/MacWorldRumors.shtml

"Unfortunately, these new recruits to the cause have also discovered the ugly side of Mac Fandom: how it persecutes blasphemers who actually are willing to admit in public that there do exist problems with the Mac which haven't actually been solved yet.

"I spent $1,800 on a computer that's slower than the $400 eMachine it replaced," one iMac user wrote in an e-mail

Several correspondents asked not to be identified for fear of retaliation by Mac zealots, who have been known to e-mail 1,000 or more harangues to the work addresses of those who criticize the huggable device.

But, still: "I'm sick of looking at that little wheel spin," another griped, referring to the circular hourglass cursor that appears while the Mac processes a Web page.

Tests on other Apple platforms showed a similar performance gap between a $1,500 Dell notebook and a freshly unboxed, $3,000 PowerBook G4.

The solution to vocal and angry new recruits is repression and persecution, and the one sin that is not to be tolerated is to actually admit in the hearing of any PC user that one is anything other than absolutely ecstatic about every minute of use of the Mac. It's perfect; it has no flaws; it is ideal in every way; and if you say otherwise we'll break your kneecaps."

Hmm - I think I can relate. 125 comments puts this thread in the top 5 of our entire site, and it's not even about a Pocket PC! Such platform zealotry outstrips even my own for the Pocket PC, and that's a scary, scary thing. 8O

[Weyoun6]

This whole argument is useless because as we all know, the BEos is superior to both Windows and any Mac OS.

[wiredguy]

But, still: "I'm sick of looking at that little wheel spin," another griped, referring to the circular hourglass cursor that appears while the Mac processes a Web page.

Slow web browsing was a known bug in OS X 10... but 10.1 fixed that.

Tests on other Apple platforms showed a similar performance gap between a $1,500 Dell notebook and a freshly unboxed, $3,000 PowerBook G4.

I thought we already discussed TCO. That kills the price gap. Oh, and even if the Dell could out perform the powerbook in a few benchmarks, I'm sure it gets out performed in other areas.

Hmm - I think I can relate. 125 comments puts this thread in the top 5 of our entire site, and it's not even about a Pocket PC! Such platform zealotry outstrips even my own for the Pocket PC, and that's a scary, scary thing. 8O

It's actually not so much platform zealotry... I just feel the need to correct many of the un-mac-educated posts made here. Not be cause they are about Apple... but because the people that post the messages are so obviously making statements without foundation. You don't have to like the platform... but don't make false claims, or make completely inaccurate statements (that may have been true of Apple 5-6 years ago).

BTW, I'm not targetting Jason here... just happen to be replying to his post. Most of what he posted here is accurate or was accurate very recently... and I've found discussion with him to be a learning experience (even though I may not always come across as semi-understanding :)).

I'm talking about the people that feel the need to knock Apple without even realizing OS X is in existence... and many things have changed since the original iMAC :D.

[klinux]

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/07/MacWorldRumors.shtml &lt;-- I read his weblog and his comments is only slightly more logical and sensical than that of Pradike. I would not take Beste's comments, which are mostly hyperbole, generalization, and heresay, seriously.

[klinux]

The bottom line is the bottom line (as they say in business)....


Ooo hoo, this one had me laughing hard. If this is not a clear indication that one is arguing with a kid-troll, I don't know what is. :lol:

[Jason Dunn]

Guys, don't make me lock the thread....just let it go ok? Just let it go...

[Rob Alexander]

Rob - Would you call yourself an average PC user? That's right, you're not. not. While it is great that you don't experience the myriads of problem that 99% of Windows users experience them on a daily basis.

Maybe not, but my prescription for a stable PC doesn't take an expert to implement. Use high-quality parts (which still cost less than a Mac), use a UPS and don't do stupid stuff (i.e. if Windows warns you not to do something, then don't do it).

[Rob Alexander]

Hey, I just got to the end and saw that people wanted to stop these threads. Sorry, I'll shut up now.

[Jason Dunn]

I had a quick comment in closing. I think the stability of a computer, ANY computer, depends on how people use it. I remember a friend had a computer that his parents used. Nothing special or powerful. In the year they had it (before it was stolen), they never installed a SINGLE application. They did email, web, word processing. And guess what? The damn thing never crashed, and hardly needed to be rebooted (Win 95). I was amazed that the computer was as fast after a year as it was on the first day...whereas my brutal treatment of my Win 95 computers (installing and uninstalling five shareware apps a day) caused system slowness, instability, etc.