Getting the new Pocket PCs...

[Jason Dunn]

I really appreciated the huge amount of input on the thread <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2600">about us signing a CDA with HP</a>. Your opinions reflected some of my own, and you gave me a lot to think about.<br /><br />One of the reasons I wanted to sign it was to get access to the hardware early on and share my thoughts about it with you. I doubt we'll ever write the 5000 word reviews that PocketNow does, but it's important for me to be informed about the new hardware on the market. The biggest obstacle to that is location: Canada doesn't tend to get new Pocket PCs very quickly, nor can I afford to purchase every one that comes out on the market.<br /><br />My attempts thus far to get review units from the major OEMs have been fairly unsuccessful, and more to the point, by the time I could possibly get one, it's "old news". Most of the OEMs seem unwilling to cooperate with me or this site (although there are some exceptions). I have access to some of the devices directly from Microsoft, but I just got a Toshiba e570 two months ago, so I'm not exactly bleeding edge in that regard. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif" /><br /><br />So, I've come up with an idea - it may be a foolish idea, or it may be a brilliant one. You decide. Here it is: <b>a Pocket PC raffle for reviewed devices</b>. When a new device is announced, I'd start the raffle. Buying a ticket would cost $10 to $20, and the number of tickets sold would be restricted to matching the amount needed to buy the device. The goal here is not for me to make money, it's to cover the cost of me buying a device for review purposes. Once the review is done, the device would be randomly given to one of the people who bought a raffle "ticket". At $10 per ticket, the odds would be 1 in 50 to 1 in 80, depending on the overall cost of the device. Or if the tickets were more expensive, say $20 per ticket, the odds would be 1 in 25 to 1 in 40. Not bad odds, eh?<br /><br />So there you have it. Please let me know what you think! As always, your input helps to guide this site.<br /><br /><b>UPDATE:</b> Well, the thing I love about you guys is that you're not shy about your opinion! Any lawyers out there in Canada and the USA willing to give me some advice on how to do this? Whether or not we go ahead with it would depend on how complex it is to accomplish legally.

[palmsolo]

I don't have the funds to upgrade to the new devices all the time, but having this type of raffle gives me that "chance" that I might win one. With other free contests there may be thousands of entries and these odds are pretty good. Plus we get to read a review from a Pocket PC expert before buying the units ourselves.

Can you sign the unit for me if I win one? You are a celebrity in the Pocket PC world!

[mookie123]

$10 would it be only about 35-70 people per round? It's enticing....heh

but why not make it $1-5 bucks and make it one chance in 350 to 700 per round? that is much closer to raffle. I am sure there are more than several thousand PPCT readers out there itching to play the raffle.

If it is done via snail mail payment , well than one dollar a ticket is definitely too much work. I guess than make a ticket that cost $10 but has $1-2 raffle value that can be use for 5-10 rounds.

just an idea.

[pt]

jason-

this is a good idea. i think you should try it out and see how it goes.

here are some "thought starters"

-if not enough people enter, they would then need to either be entered in another one or you'd need to return the money...but a 1 out of 20 / 40 / 50 chance is a no brainer for most.

-if someone enters more than once, as in 25 times or so, there's a very good chance they'll win and get a pda for 1/2 price each time. it doesn't really matter, but you may want to address this from the start, maybe a 5 per person entry.

cheers,
pt

[handheldplanet]

Sign me up. I'm all over this. Interestingly enough I already get most of the latest and greatest devices (as an accessory manufacturer), but I'd love to support the site in this way.

pt brings up a few good points - a 5 entry limit is a good idea.

[entropy1980]

jason-

this is a good idea. i think you should try it out and see how it goes.

here are some "thought starters"

-if not enough people enter, they would then need to either be entered in another one or you'd need to return the money...but a 1 out of 20 / 40 / 50 chance is a no brainer for most.

-if someone enters more than once, as in 25 times or so, there's a very good chance they'll win and get a pda for 1/2 price each time. it doesn't really matter, but you may want to address this from the start, maybe a 5 per person entry.

cheers,
pt

No way don't limit it if a person wants to buy up a bunch let them, you will still get the moneyto cover and unless they buy all the chances there is still a huge chance they won't win.

[yada88]

I think this is a great idea, and I can't wait to start buying rafle tickets!

[mookie123]

Now all we need is some nuclear physicist to predict what the distribution of raffle tickets inside the spinning bucket to optimise the minimum dollar that give slightly bigger chance of winning. Remember no randomizer is perfect. Isn't science great? heh heh

cheers.

[don996cab]

Since you are in Canada, will the products be available as soon as they are in the US?

Also, don't just limit it to ppc. Try to include accessories and other hardware.

Is the Loox out yet? Why dont you use that or the new PPC phones as a starter.

And how do you plan to do payment, via paypal?

[Bob Anderson]

Fabulous idea. A few thoughts:

1. Limit entries to registered Pocket PC thoughts members,
2. Limit the number of tickets purchased per member (you're the boss... set the limit as you see fit.)
3. Allow for payment via Pay Pal
4. Build in some buffer in the ticket price to cover S&H and if there is any money left over, donate it to charity

And finally: Rethink your position on signing the NDA! I want to see and hear your impressions before I spend my money buying one (even if it is in the form of a raffle ticket!)

Looking forward to: a) the first review of a new HP device, or b) the first opportunity to participate in a raffle for some new device! (How can you lose on this deal??!!) :D

[kennyg]

If I were you I would worry about the legality of such a proposition. :(

In the US there are state laws about the running of such endevors, but I suppose as long as you operate in Cananada (my kids pronunciation :)) you would be immune to prosecution?

[Jeff Rutledge]

Fabulous idea. A few thoughts:

1. Limit entries to registered Pocket PC thoughts members

Agreed (on both points). 8)

[Ashley Dunn]

In response to kennyg's concerns about the legality of this, as a fellow Canadian, I've never heard of any such legislations, and I'm not sure how it would work considering Jason would be purchasing the device himself to review, and then after a two week, or however long, period, he would then give the device to whoever wins. So technically he'd be the owner of the device, and I've never heard of a law anywhere stating that people can't give away their own property.

However, I'll definitely see what I can find on the subject!

[johnegq]

I love the idea 8)

[mookie123]

PPCT running an international gambling ring? heh heh.....life is so complicated sometimes.

[Jason Dunn]

Can you sign the unit for me if I win one? You are a celebrity in the Pocket PC world!

Hah! Sure! ;-)

[danmanmayer]

I really like the raffle idea. But i would say a dollar per ticket. The the amount of tickets sold is still only equal to the cost of the device (I don't think you should use this to make money.) But then if someone wants better chances in the raffle they can spend $10 and have 10 tickets. If you spend just a dollar you only have 1 ticket. This would mean you can contribute as much or as little as you would like while still supporting the site (not with money now just with materials to review) and you get a chance to win a pocket PC. If you do start doing this method I would think that the site would have to make more in depth reviews. Other wise i would rather send the device to another site early to get a more detailed review. So i support this and would send out a couple bucks to see some more reviews, as well as more detailed reviews.

[Sanjay Srikonda]

no doubt, this is a great idea, only problem is that you're not going to get a vast majority of people being able to sign up to this, and how will you take payments and will you limit someone who's signed up to a previous raffle to not be able to sign up to another one right away?

plus, what about someone who's signed up, and won, are they eligible for the next raffle?

just wondering about the whole fairness thing is all.

who knows, maybe it is just fair, you get there first, you get to sign up for the raffle first.

[Jason Dunn]

but why not make it $1-5 bucks and make it one chance in 350 to 700 per round? that is much closer to raffle. I am sure there are more than several thousand PPCT readers out there itching to play the raffle.

I suppose I was thinking in terms of how many people, realistically, would be interested in this. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have 50 raffle tickets sell quickly and have some people be disappointed at missing it, but it WOULD be a bad thing to be short $200 on the device and having me take the hit for that.

[Sanjay Srikonda]

how many of us could even begin to imagine to be able to buy these devices for $5 or $20? i'm thinking you're going to get a lot of people queueing up to buy raffles.

but... maybe that's just me.

[entropy1980]

Fewer people better odds I like my odds against 50 other people not 1000 even if I buy 50 tickets in a sea of 1000 I would feel better with 1 ticket against 49 other people. :D

[possmann]

Great idea Jason - will you extend this to other accesories no longer "needed"?

[medic119]

I like the idea. I'm in, I agree that it should be restricted to registered members though.

[Jason Dunn]

Since you are in Canada, will the products be available as soon as they are in the US? Also, don't just limit it to ppc. Try to include accessories and other hardware. Is the Loox out yet? Why dont you use that or the new PPC phones as a starter. And how do you plan to do payment, via paypal?

1) I would order them straight from the US (online)
2) Accessories aren't nearly as hard to get
3) The release of the Loox is very much an unknown at this point
4) The Phone Edition device I'm getting is mine, all mine - no raffle there! ;-) (I didn't have to pay for it, hence I don't need to sell it)
5) PayPal would be the only method I would use - everything else would be too much of a hassle

[innersky]

Cool idea. I'm in.
It's fun and it helps support the site.
As far as I'm concerned, why don't you make a few bucks on it.

[DavidRoss]

In the USA you must have special licenses to hold raffles, even schools and churches must go though the process of getting these... since you would be making it available to US citizens then i would assume you would also have to get one of these licenses.
I bet this is why a lot of competitions and other offers say "valid to US residents only", simply because they don’t want to deal with Canadian law, and the same probably would be true for Canadian competitions not being available to us residents.

[Jason Dunn]

If I were you I would worry about the legality of such a proposition. In the US there are state laws about the running of such endevors, but I suppose as long as you operate in Cananada (my kids pronunciation :)) you would be immune to prosecution?

Oh, there are laws here too, but let's be honest: if I was doing everything completely "by the book" I wouldn't even be able to randomly give away software! Contest laws are different all over the world, so having to research the legality for each one would kill this concept immediately. I don't want to get into excluding people from outside the US and Canada. As a Canadian, I hate it when I'm excluded from something, and I don't want to do the same thing to others...

[Sanjay Srikonda]

I've never heard you need a license to run a raffle? is that per state or nationwide?

[Kirk Stephens]

Very creative idea. I would definatly purchase a raffles ticket, but I would not spend more then $5-$10. Also, PayPal is probably your best bet for money collection because of its widespread use.

Also, you should put a limit on raffle tickets unless after a couple of days not enough people are buying the tickets, then you could let people buy as many as they want, so you dont get short-changed.

[Jeff Rutledge]

Very creative idea. I would definatly purchase a raffles ticket, but I would not spend more then $5-$10. Also, PayPal is probably your best bet for money collection because of its widespread use.

Also, you should put a limit on raffle tickets unless after a couple of days not enough people are buying the tickets, then you could let people buy as many as they want, so you dont get short-changed.

Yeah, I like that idea. Say, no more than 5 tix each to start. Then open it up at the end! This is a very cool idea (of course, I'm assuming I'm going to win something) :lol:

[feo]

I like it!
I will buy tickets!!!

[Ploobers]

You'd better watch out for the Secret Raffle Police. There's a whole section of the government set up to watch out for dirty raffle law avoidances just like you are proposing.

[gracar]

Some few weeks ago you raised the subject of paid subscription content and there was little enthusiasm - nobody had any money as I recall. Suddenly that's changed and buying raffle tickets is not an issue. I guess it comes down to the "value proposition".

I have learnt a lot from this site and the forums and I'd like to see it prosper but, as I understand it the proposal is only to cover the cost of purchase and the money would be collected in retrospect - why not take a giant step. For $100 - up front - 50 people would fund the "review pool" and as each device was reviewed one of the 50 people would win. When that pool is exhausted a new pool would start. Advantages - money up front and better odds of winning.

Personally I am only interested in European compatable devices so perhaps we need a European only pool.

[Jason Dunn]

A few thoughts...

1) I would certainly limited it to registered users - it would be a privilege for Thoughts readers, not the entire PDA world.

2) There would be a limit to the number of tickets purchased - I'd say no more than 10% of the total. I wouldn't want someone to use this as a way to get 20% off a device....although wouldn't be funny for someone to buy $500 in tickets and then LOSE? Ouch! :lol:

3) Would people whine if they didn't win? Steve Bush had some contests that went badly, and I don't want this to turn into something I'd regret. Ultimately everyone would have to trust me completely about being fair.

4) I'd be very open about the total cost of the device + shipping, the number of tickets available, total monies received, and any left over money would be donated to a local charity.

5) I have no true desire to break laws, but this would get too complex to do if I were to get a lawyer involved to make it all legal. Besides which, that would cost money, and if I had extra money, I wouldn't need to do this. ;-)

6) Technically, I'd be giving away the device after I owned it. I would purchase the device (or have someone on my team purchase it and send it to me). The "donations" coming in via PayPal would reimburse me for the cost of the device. I'd draw randomly from the list of names of people who "donated". Perhaps that's a loophole I could use to make this more or less legal?

Maybe this isn't such a good idea after all...so complex. :roll: I swear, if it weren't for lawyers...

[Sanjay Srikonda]

Hey, this is a great idea. ignore the naysayers. You have come up with a winning idea.

will everyone be happy about it, if they win, lose, otherwise get kidnapped by aliens?

Someone somewhere somehow is going to moan and groan that they weren't treated fairly.

You have to make up your mind, I for one would support this and think it's a great idea.

but, like all things, my opinion is worth what YOU paid for it.

or, as shakespeare wrote, "Nothing will come of nothing."

[marlof]

You'd better watch out for the Secret Raffle Police. There's a whole section of the government set up to watch out for dirty raffle law avoidances just like you are proposing.

As long as I am active on this site, there won't be any "dirty raffle law avoidances". What Jason is doing here, is to see if people are interested. If that is the case, Jason still should find out what rules are applicable, and if he can orchestrate this in a way that it's according to the law, and still a fun thing for him to do. In the end, it may be that it's a fun idea, but that the law kills all the fun. The law is known to do that...

[wesk]

Great idea Jason,

I'll buy a ticket(s). Please keep the price in the $10 - $20 range. I like the odds better with 1 in 50 chances, instead of 1 in 500. And registered users only is a must.

Wes

[bgracewood]

I think this is a fantastic idea, assuming that it is all legal and not too complicated to run!

In fact, I'm surprised that other review sites have not come up with the same idea.

[rapster]

Games of Chance

When legal, a promotion in aid of selling a product or service which offers the target (consumer, employee, sales person) an opportunity to win a prize.

Legal if a Sweepstakes or Contest - A game which has elements of chance in its format even though some degree of skill is necessary to participate. In order for a Sweepstakes to be a legal game of chance rather than an illegal lottery, the promoter of the game must make sure that one of the three elements of an illegal lottery is not present, namely 1. Prize, 2. Chance, 3. Consideration. By definition the first two elements are always present. (If #2., Chance is not present then you have either a Contest where the prize winner is determined by skill or a premium offer where every consumer receives an item.)

Therefore, promoters of Sweepstakes usually remove the element of consideration (that is, buying the product or doing something else that might be considered of value, such as filing out an extensive consumer survey), by permitting consumers to enter the game without having to give consideration. This is frequently called a free alternative means of entry and is usually accomplished by mail or use of an 800 number.

Where the promoter of a game tries to remove the element of chance by requiring the exercise of skill to win, he must be certain that no significant element of chance remains in the judging process. For example, promoters frequently attempt to break ties with a random drawing. This may turn a legal Contest or game of skill into an illegal lottery.

Illegal if a Lottery - A game where the players purchase a low priced entry in hopes of winning a significant prize. These games are usually illegal unless run by a governmental entity or permitted by special statutory exemption. The goal of the promotion marketer is to create a game which is legal and not a lottery, but still permits the consumer to enter and win a prize. There are two main types of such games:

1. Sweepstakes in which an illegal lottery is avoided by not having the consumer provide consideration. This is accomplished by always providing the consumer with a free alternative means of entry.

2. Contests or Games of Skill are legal because even though the consumer may be required to provide consideration, (i.e. by making a purchase), the winner is determined, not by chance, but rather by the exercise of superior skill. For example, shooting the most baskets in 5 minutes, writing the best essay, taking the best photo, etc.

[rlitchfield]

In response to kennyg's concerns about the legality of this, as a fellow Canadian, I've never heard of any such legislations...

Here in Quebec, a raffle such as this would be illegal, unless you pay a certian amount to the government. Only raffles under $100-200 do not require a "licence".

However, I want in...so I won't tell :)

Robert

[Jeff Rutledge]

Games of Chance

When legal, a promotion in aid of selling a product or service which offers the target (consumer, employee, sales person) an opportunity to win a prize.

Legal if a Sweepstakes or Contest - A game which has elements of chance in its format even though some degree of skill is necessary to participate. In order for a Sweepstakes to be a legal game of chance rather than an illegal lottery, the promoter of the game must make sure that one of the three elements of an illegal lottery is not present, namely 1. Prize, 2. Chance, 3. Consideration. By definition the first two elements are always present. (If #2., Chance is not present then you have either a Contest where the prize winner is determined by skill or a premium offer where every consumer receives an item.)

Therefore, promoters of Sweepstakes usually remove the element of consideration (that is, buying the product or doing something else that might be considered of value, such as filing out an extensive consumer survey), by permitting consumers to enter the game without having to give consideration. This is frequently called a free alternative means of entry and is usually accomplished by mail or use of an 800 number.

Where the promoter of a game tries to remove the element of chance by requiring the exercise of skill to win, he must be certain that no significant element of chance remains in the judging process. For example, promoters frequently attempt to break ties with a random drawing. This may turn a legal Contest or game of skill into an illegal lottery.

Illegal if a Lottery
- A game where the players purchase a low priced entry in hopes of winning a significant prize. These games are usually illegal unless run by a governmental entity or permitted by special statutory exemption. The goal of the promotion marketer is to create a game which is legal and not a lottery, but still permits the consumer to enter and win a prize. There are two main types of such games:

1. Sweepstakes in which an illegal lottery is avoided by not having the consumer provide consideration. This is accomplished by always providing the consumer with a free alternative means of entry.

2. Contests or Games of Skill are legal because even though the consumer may be required to provide consideration, (i.e. by making a purchase), the winner is determined, not by chance, but rather by the exercise of superior skill. For example, shooting the most baskets in 5 minutes, writing the best essay, taking the best photo, etc.

Where was this taken from rapster? I have a feeling it's different from state to state, and definitely different between US and Canada. For example, I think there is some rule in Canada that some types of contests require a skill testing question. However, I think that's for "no purchase necessary" type contests. Who knows.

Personally, I'd hope that this isn't something big enough to make a fuss over, but I could be mistaken.

[Sanjay Srikonda]

Is this nationwide, someone's fanciful attempt at legalese, or is it for a particular state in the US only?

Does it also extend to canadian run raffles?

Ok, fine, there's some legal stuff listed here, where's it from? There's no attribution.

so until someone comes up and says, this is a national law I'd be skeptical to believe it.

[rapster]

Sorry about the lack of attribution...it came from the Promotion Marketing Association (http://www.pmalink.org/html/hqgoc.html).

The three key words that I was trying to remember about this kind of thing were 'prize, chance, consideration'. If all three of these are elements of the contest, it would probably be considered an illegal lottery in most jurisdictions. Strictly speaking, that would apply here: $20 (consideration) to enter a random drawing (chance) for a $500 PDA (prize).

[Wes Salmon]

Oh, there are laws here too, but let's be honest: if I was doing everything completely "by the book" I wouldn't even be able to randomly give away software!The problem is that no one has to pay to be entered into those contests. Once people have to pay to enter, it's a whole other ball game legally speaking.

[marlof]

Thanks for the feedback rapster, it's highly appreciated.

[Martin I Pettinger]

I think the idea is great. Can I take part as I am in Scotland. If I buy a ticket and win what is the cost of shipping the device and will import tax be payable. a thoughts of my own:

Registered Members Only but...
What about those who "Have just joined for the contests"

[DrtyBlvd]

"I suppose I was thinking in terms of how many people, realistically, would be interested in this. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have 50 raffle tickets sell quickly and have some people be disappointed at missing it, but it WOULD be a bad thing to be short $200 on the device and having me take the hit for that. "

Are you kidding me?? What are your user stats Jase? Assume a 10% interest and multiply that by $10 a ticket and how much profit over the cost of the device WOULD you make??? What I'm trying to say, in my usual subtle fashion, is you would almost certainly be oversubscribed for decent hardware...

I believe it was a few months ago I suggested that you auction the hardware you receive for free, with proceeds after covering costs going to your church - I'm not 100% on a raffle style affair, for a few reasons -

There is a 'legal' one to consider, (albeit CAN law - not my strong point), and lets face it, in a fluffy-white-clouds world, no problem, but in this one, there will be, as sure as god made apples - not being 'negative' , more 'realistically cynical'

The notion of you purchasing hardware for review would take you into another 'arena' - and I don't get the impression that you are that way inclined; on top of which you run the risk of 'negative equity' in some instances, unless you get devices at a discount; this support the notion of the numbers required for a successful auction - but it's still a risk.

You also expose yourself to all sorts of "It didn't arrive in one piece" arguments or "It has a scratch" (Dust under the screen :wink: ) sort of things... for $10 you'd be surprised what people WILL complain about.

I think it's a good idea, but one fraught with difficulties administering and making work right - and don't you have enough on your plate keeping us readers amused at the moment?

I say sign the NDA, with restrictions removed or discussed and written in, if possible, and see how it goes. Then auction them per previous.

Of course, I'll be buying tickets should you decide to go ahead! It would be interesting to announce when the 'event' would commence and seeing how long your servers last :D

[Master O'Mayhem]

Jason,

you are better off trying to sell this on ebay. This is way to much legal mumbo jumbo... i would stay away from it if it were me.

[jeff]

2. Contests or Games of Skill are legal because even though the consumer may be required to provide consideration, (i.e. by making a purchase), the winner is determined, not by chance, but rather by the exercise of superior skill. For example, shooting the most baskets in 5 minutes, writing the best essay, taking the best photo, etc.

Oh, so that's why so many contests have you answer three idiotic questions to gain entry. I wonder if there's any limit on how difficult the game of skill has to be.

I have this vague recollection of a video game contest from years ago where you had to solve harder and harder puzzles in the mail to get a complete gaming rig. I could never remember to mail out my entries and ended up throwing away a couple of dollars every time.

And I don't think you need to limit the number of entries one can make, unless this whole skill thing limits you to one per person. If you plunk down $200 on a raffle where you still a better than even chance of losing, you should have that money taken from you.

Jeff

[jdhill]

3) Would people whine if they didn't win? Steve Bush had some contests that went badly, and I don't want this to turn into something I'd regret. Ultimately everyone would have to trust me completely about being fair.
Just make sure that your Chiropractor doesn't win twice and you will be good to go !!! :wink:

[Willmonwah]

Like Drty Blvd implied, setting up a business paypal account and taking money does have a commercial feel to it, but then again, it doesn't.

Doing this is almost a service to us! He should be taking a profit from this and he's not. At least I don't think :wink: .

It has the feel of a PTA 50/50 raffle, but I'll be one of the first to buy a ticket.

[danmanmayer]

I don't think it would be bad to make some, but you would have to limit it or the percent of winning would go way down. If you said that the raffle tickets would only be sold to $100 dollars more than the cost then it would keep the percentage of winning fairly good and it would help support the site. I would be fine ith an arrangement like that. Long as it was a fairly low and set amount. If everyone could just keep buying i would feel like i was being ripped off. From reading the message board it really sounds like you have hit a great idea. So if you do this it means you won't be signing the HP deal right. I hope you don't, might ruin the site.

[ledowning]

I think that this is a good idea as well. Quick question though. Suppose you raffle off a pocket pc or accessory package, do the original warranties get transferred to the new owner of the device or accessory? This may be a dumb question, but I thought I would ask it anyway.

:lol:

[Willmonwah]

Doing this is almost a service to us! He should be taking a profit from this and he's not. At least I don't think :wink: .

It has the feel of a PTA 50/50 raffle, but I'll be one of the first to buy a ticket.

Ok, I obviously missed Jason and Rapster's posts in this thread.

Sounds like a plan :arrow: 6) Technically, I'd be giving away the device after I owned it. I would purchase the device (or have someone on my team purchase it and send it to me). The "donations" coming in via PayPal would reimburse me for the cost of the device. I'd draw randomly from the list of names of people who "donated". Perhaps that's a loophole I could use to make this more or less legal?

[David McNamee]

I like the idea, but you should really talk to a lawyer before you do it.

[Jason Dunn]

Suppose you raffle off a pocket pc or accessory package, do the original warranties get transferred to the new owner of the device or accessory? This may be a dumb question, but I thought I would ask it anyway.

No, that's a very good question. The answer is "it depends on the item". I've never had any problems with my Pocket PCs, even though in most cases I didn't purchase them myself. But I think it would vary...

[Ploobers]

My vote would be to set a specific number for every auction of a PPC, say $1000 for convenience sake and sell 100 tickets at $10 a pop. That way you don't have to deal with different prices and different amounts of tickets. When you purchase a ticket, you know you have a 1% chance of winning, but you shouldn't limit the number purchased (although you could limit until a few days before the raffle itself). I think you deserve to make a profit off of it, after all you'd be putting in the initial investment and you'd be spending the time reviewing it, not to mention everything else you contribute to the community as a whole (along with the rest of the PPCThoughts team). I'd be happy to purchase tickets knowing that it would be going to support the site. I mean seriously, who would really begrudge them getting at least a little compensation for their time? As for the legal aspect, I don't know a lot about law, but I don't think that this would qualify as a racketeering gig that somebody would come after (my earlier post was most definitely my miniscule sense of humor). You're providing a service and everyone is happy with it. To save the appearances though, you could maybe have to have the correct answer to a question in order to enter, but I don't think it would be absolutely necessary.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Well I'd buy a ticket. To be honest I would be happy with you selling tickets to support the site, as well as covering the price of the device. I get the feeling you may be getting many more 'I joined for the prizes' members if this one goes ahead. :wink:

[Ronan]

Great Idea Jason!!

I have the exact same problem with my site as I am not based in the U.S. It is almost impossible to get review models of the latest devices and by the time I do get them all the other major US based sites have had them reviewed for months. :?

[pt]

jason-

if all the legal talk and talk of shipping, warranties and everything else "spooks" you from doing this. here's something to consider...

buy the device, and return it. most places have a return policy, it's lots of work i suppose if there's shipping and such, but if it's less work than a contest and the results are the same, then it might be an option. if you can devices in canada at a local retailer that might work...

just thinking of other options.

cheers,
pt

[topps]

In response to kennyg's concerns about the legality of this, as a fellow Canadian, I've never heard of any such legislations, and I'm not sure how it would work considering Jason would be purchasing the device himself to review, and then after a two week, or however long, period, he would then give the device to whoever wins. So technically he'd be the owner of the device, and I've never heard of a law anywhere stating that people can't give away their own property.

However, I'll definitely see what I can find on the subject!

Ashley, I'm afraid, as other posters have pointed out, that you will probably run into Provincial legislation on this.

1. Yes, there has to be a skill testing question so that it is a contest, not a lottery. Not hard to do.

2. Yes, you have to apply to the Provincial Gaming Commission for a licence.

3. I think that you have to be a charitable org to do this - not certain about this. I suppose that can't be entirely the case or else how do Bingo Halls run. OTOH, they are often "staffed" by charity groups, trying to raise a buck or two...see how muddy it all gets.

4. There is a limit of 2 gaming licences per year in Alberta - again, this might just apply to charities. What is worse is that you have to show a clean set of audited accounts from the first contest before you can apply for your next licence.

It's tempting with all this hassle just to wing it. But remember that the Net is a very public place. It would only take one disgruntled participant to blow the whistle and you'd have the Gaming Commission all over you.

I'm no legal expert so you should get better information than I can offer (pro bono, anyone?) but I reckon that this could get pretty sticky. Have fun doing your homework.

dt

[jack in the box]

Jason,

I seem to recall a post a while ago where you were considering a section of 'Thoughts' for paid subscribers.
Why not do the raffle only for people who join a subscription service, factor the price of the review items (maybe 10 pocket PCs) into the cost of the subscription. This may help to increase the number of paid subscriptions to the site. Surely then you are offering a raffle to 'Members' and not to the general public, this may help with the legal issues.

[SQLDba]

You might want to visit a similar type site - www.macraffle.com. They are in the "business" of raffleing off Apple products - with limited #'s of tickets. The big difference is that this is clearly set up for profit. for example - an iBook raffle will sell 420 tickets @ $10.95 each. Good odds but they are collecting WAY more then the price of the item. Additionally, the item is delivered to you 90 days after you win.

Reading their "fine print" raises some interesting points -

1. They make it the responsiblity of the winner to ensure the legality of the raffle. They say that there are "no laws banning their raffle - but none that specifically make it legal either"

2. The company is in the process of incorporating in Barbados - in part to avoid US laws against their activities.

3. When you register - one of the things you do is pick from a list of charities - and part of the $$ collected (20% roughly) is donated to the chosen charity of the winner. Again, a way to make it more legal.

4. No purchase necessary. This is a clever idea. What they do is set out some very specific rules for a free entry (i.e. 3X5 post card, info in black ink - can only be mailed during a full moon etc.) All properly received entries are then put together and entered as a single ticket in the drawing. If that ticket happens to be drawn, then a second drawing is made among those that make up the free ticket group. Smart way to enable that option.

My only other thought is to keep it a small number of higher priced tickets. For several reasons:

1. Lots of entries means you spend more time managing raffles and less time buying and reviewing and then raffleing new products.

2. The real appeal in a raffle like this is a REAL chance to win.

3. Ultimately, if raffles go quickly, and your costs are recouped - you will be able to buy and review more products - and raffle them off - I would rather increase my participation through more raffles then by have more tickets to a single raffle.

Just my thoughts.....

[Rob Borek]

Sorry Jason... this scheme is illegal under the Criminal Code of Canada...

206. (1) Every one is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years who

(a) makes, prints, advertises or publishes, or causes or procures to be made, printed, advertised or published, any proposal, scheme or plan for advancing, lending, giving, selling or in any way disposing of any property by lots, cards, tickets or any mode of chance whatever;

(b) sells, barters, exchanges or otherwise disposes of, or causes or procures, or aids or assists in, the sale, barter, exchange or other disposal of, or offers for sale, barter or exchange, any lot, card, ticket or other means or device for advancing, lending, giving, selling or otherwise disposing of any property by lots, tickets or any mode of chance whatever;

(c) knowingly sends, transmits, mails, ships, delivers or allows to be sent, transmitted, mailed, shipped or delivered, or knowingly accepts for carriage or transport or conveys any article that is used or intended for use in carrying out any device, proposal, scheme or plan for advancing, lending, giving, selling or otherwise disposing of any property by any mode of chance whatever;

(d) conducts or manages any scheme, contrivance or operation of any kind for the purpose of determining who, or the holders of what lots, tickets, numbers or chances, are the winners of any property so proposed to be advanced, lent, given, sold or disposed of;

(e) conducts, manages or is a party to any scheme, contrivance or operation of any kind by which any person, on payment of any sum of money, or the giving of any valuable security, or by obligating himself to pay any sum of money or give any valuable security, shall become entitled under the scheme, contrivance or operation to receive from the person conducting or managing the scheme, contrivance or operation, or any other person, a larger sum of money or amount of valuable security than the sum or amount paid or given, or to be paid or given, by reason of the fact that other persons have paid or given, or obligated themselves to pay or give any sum of money or valuable security under the scheme, contrivance or operation;

(f) disposes of any goods, wares or merchandise by any game of chance or any game of mixed chance and skill in which the contestant or competitor pays money or other valuable consideration;

(g) induces any person to stake or hazard any money or other valuable property or thing on the result of any dice game, three-card monte, punch board, coin table or on the operation of a wheel of fortune;

(h) for valuable consideration carries on or plays or offers to carry on or to play, or employs any person to carry on or play in a public place or a place to which the public have access, the game of three-card monte;

(i) receives bets of any kind on the outcome of a game of three-card monte; or

(j) being the owner of a place, permits any person to play the game of three-card monte therein.

Definition of "three-card monte"
(2) In this section, "three-card monte" means the game commonly known as three-card monte and includes any other game that is similar to it, whether or not the game is played with cards and notwithstanding the number of cards or other things that are used for the purpose of playing.

Exemption for fairs
(3) Paragraphs (1)(f) and (g), in so far as they do not relate to a dice game, three-card monte, punch board or coin table, do not apply to the board of an annual fair or exhibition, or to any operator of a concession leased by that board within its own grounds and operated during the fair or exhibition on those grounds.

Definition of "fair or exhibition"
(3.1) For the purposes of this section, "fair or exhibition" means an event where agricultural or fishing products are presented or where activities relating to agriculture or fishing take place.

Offence
(4) Every one who buys, takes or receives a lot, ticket or other device mentioned in subsection (1) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Lottery sale void
(5) Every sale, loan, gift, barter or exchange of any property, by any lottery, ticket, card or other mode of chance depending on or to be determined by chance or lot, is void, and all property so sold, lent, given, bartered or exchanged is forfeited to Her Majesty.

Bona fide exception
(6) Subsection (5) does not affect any right or title to property acquired by any bona fide purchaser for valuable consideration without notice.

Foreign lottery included
(7) This section applies to the printing or publishing, or causing to be printed or published, of any advertisement, scheme, proposal or plan of any foreign lottery, and the sale or offer for sale of any ticket, chance or share, in any such lottery, or the advertisement for sale of such ticket, chance or share, and the conducting or managing of any such scheme, contrivance or operation for determining the winners in any such lottery.

Saving
(8) This section does not apply to

(a) the division by lot or chance of any property by joint tenants or tenants in common, or persons having joint interests in any such property; or

(b) [Repealed, 1999, c. 28, s. 156]

(c) bonds, debentures, debenture stock or other securities recallable by drawing of lots and redeemable with interest and providing for payment of premiums on redemption or otherwise.

The only exceptions to this (other than the exceptions above) are lottery corporations, and licenses issued to charities by the provinces for the purposes of running a lottery. The only legal way to run a giveaway is to offer entrance based on something (ie purchase a product), and in addition allow people to enter the raffle/contest for free by some means (ie mail in a ballot), and while the winner can be determined at random, the winner must ultimately win by skill (aka a skill-testing question) in order to distinguish it from a lottery (this is Canadian law - which is why you always see "winner must answer a time-limited skill-testing question"). Also note that to offer a contest in Quebec, you must register with the Quebec government and provide a surety/bond to ensure the prize is awarded. Laws vary across the US and throughout the world, which is why they often restrict it to Canada, or the US, or Can/US, or to the UK, etc.

[marlof]

From a US Law Firm ( ArentFox ) forum (http://www.arentfox.com/post/forum/csmessages/349.html):

You are correct that Canadian prize winners must complete a skill testing question in order to avoid violating Canadian lottery law.

Canadian contest law, in contrast the United States law, is primarily federal, thus easier to comply with. However, contraventions of Canadian law carry heavy penalities, and compliance requires a few extra steps. While in the United States only one of the three elements of prize, chance and consideration needs to be eliminated to avoid classification as an illegal lottery, in Canada only prize and chance need to be present to run afoul of Canadian criminal laws prohibiting lotteries. To avoid the risk of violating Canadian lottery law, most sponsors will inject an element of skill into the promotion by requiring potential winners to correctly answer a skill testing question before declaring the winners and awarding the prize.

There is no set rule for what constitites a valid skill test. Most frequently the skill testing question is a four part mathematical question, which has been judicially considered and found to be an acceptable skill test, provided that it is hard enough. The precise level of difficulty that should be presented by a math question has not yet been tested. For example, "Multiply 2 x 2, Add 1, Divide by 1, and Subtract 2" may not be deemed difficult enough. In contrast, a Canadian court did find the following skill test to be sufficiently difficult: "Multiply 228 x 21, Add 10,824, Divide by 12, Subtract 1,121." Generally, it is advised that those who wish to proceed prudently stay within at least double digit questions, involving at least four functions.

Note also, contests offered in the Canadian province of Quebec should be mindful that Quebec has specific laws regulating contests. Among other things, Quebec law requires registration of contests. Therefore, contests offered in Canada should be voided in Quebec, or compliant with the Quebec Act Respecting Lotteries, Publicity Contests and Amusement Machines, and its concomitant regulations called the Rules Respecting Publicity Contests.

Finally, if you are interested in opening your contest to the rest of the world, you should be aware that you must comply with the specific contest and promotions laws of every country where the contest is offered. For that it is strongly recommended that you contact an attorney to ensure compliance.

At least we've learned from this thread why so many giveaways are limited to US / Canada, and exclude Quebec. :)

[Jonathon Watkins]

Well I hope that if there is a raffel then us non-US people can join in. I like the idea of a subscription service with the price of the reviewed unit included - say $20 a year or so. Then we can support the site & be eligable for any reviewed machines.