Okay, Now It's MY Turn To Rant...

[Brad Adrian]

Okay, now that Ed's had his chance to rant about how so many of the people writing product "reviews" don't understand what a Pocket PC Phone Edition is and is not supposed to do, <b>I've</b> got a similar point to make. It relates to this headline and teaser on the <a href="http://www.wirelessnewsfactor.com/perl/story/18855.html#talkback">WirelessNewsFactor.com site</a>:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/adrian/newsfactorphone.jpg" /><br /><br />This site is (I thought) a good, reliable source of information about anything that's going on in the area of wireless communications, yet they clearly do not understand that the Pocket PC Phone Edition is NOT the same thing as a Smart Phone. Throughout the entire article, the two types of devices are confused. Granted, it's a fine hair to split for many people, but these writers are supposed to actually know their markets. <br /><br />So here it is, all you media types out there who want to publish in the mobile device space. Here's the difference between a Phone Edition and a Smartphone:<br /><br /><b>A Pocket PC Phone Edition device is first and foremost a powerful Pocket PC, with some wireless voice and data capabilities built in. It is visually-driven, two-handed device. A Smartphone, on the other hand, is primarily a phone, with some PIM functionality added. It is meant to be a voice-centric, one-hand tool.</b><br /><br />See, this is what creates the exact problems that Ed's referring to. Writers don't bother to get their heads on straight before they write a news piece like this, and the result is an explosion of confusion and misinformation. It's the exact same thing as if I were to publish an article talking about the new BMW Z4 and referring to it as an SUV. Then, to Ed's point, people reviewing the vehicle would feel free to complain that the Z4 couldn't haul very much lumber and cornered way to well.<br /><br />It's like I've always said...If you want to get the best, most accurate and up-to-date information about Pocket PCs and mobile-related stuff, the very LAST source you should use is the press (and the manufacturers' technical support center); the very best information comes from YOU people, who make up this enthusiast community.

[EyePAQ]

A Pocket PC Phone Edition device is first and foremost a powerful Pocket PC, with some wireless voice and data capabilities built in. It is visually-driven, two-handed device. A Smartphone, on the other hand, is primarily a phone, with some PIM functionality added. It is meant to be a voice-centric, one-hand tool.

Excellent definition! Forward that to all the online rags!

[Sanjay Srikonda]

That's the problem. They're comparing apples and oranges and coming up saying that the oranges can do all this and the apples can't. well, DUH, they're ORANGES. NOT apples.

They were tasked with doing reviews. Instead of doing a review of a totally different device, they compared it to the existing devices that are nothing like devices that exist today.

No wonder they got it wrong.

[mhynek]

Ok, I'm confused. I was under the impression that the battery of the O2 was not changable. So can anyone tell me why T-Mobile has one priced on their site?

http://www.t-mobile.com/products/accessories/list.asp?phoneid=163904

Your knowledge is power

[Ed Hansberry]

I am 99.9% sure that is the piggy back battery.

[Venturello]

I have studied a bit of marketing, and this is a marketeer's nightmare, for two different (and in an important way) products, which should be focused to different consumers, to be confused by the market, and by that same confusing, both products hurted because of their own nature and misconceptions from confused consumers/reviewers.

So we got smartphone reviewers expecting a powerful pda and phone ed reviewers expecting a better phone. Stupid!! But that is the way people are.

Wait people. MS will get it better on the next gen. They always do. Amazing company!

[Master O'Mayhem]

Battery is an ADD ON ... that snaps to the back. If you have more than one, it is CHANGEABLE.

[MobiliT]

I have studied a bit of marketing, and this is a marketeer's nightmare, for two different (and in an important way) products, which should be focused to different consumers, to be confused by the market, and by that same confusing, both products hurted because of their own nature and misconceptions from confused consumers/reviewers.

So we got smartphone reviewers expecting a powerful pda and phone ed reviewers expecting a better phone. Stupid!! But that is the way people are.
Ah, a good description of our industry being thoroughly confused. Divide and conquer seems to be working. You'd think Palm came up with the strategy. :)

[Brad Adrian]

You'd think Palm came up with the strategy. :)

Hey, hey, HEY! There's no need to get nasty. :D

[Scott R]

This site is (I thought) a good, reliable source of information about anything that's going on in the area of wireless communications, yet they clearly do not understand that the Pocket PC Phone Edition is NOT the same thing as a Smart Phone.
Well, you'll note that they didn't capitalize the word "smartphone". The term "smartphone" is a long-standing term which includes all PDA/phone combos, which this device is.

Scott

[GadgetGuy]

The readers of this site, dedicated, sworn, devotees of the PPC are aware and educated about the fine distinctions between the two classes of devices.

What about the great "unwashed" out there -- the Joe and Janet Bagodonuts, who will actually constitute the market that will make or break the fortunes of the manufacturers. They only see a few ads, talk to a few people who've ventured forth and got one of the devices which will likely be offered by several different makers for several brands in several different configurations.

There will be plenty of confusion. And what happens in a confused market? Unless there is a dominant, near-perfect device, sales of all contenders shrivel, and a perfectly promising market sadly and quickly fades into oblivion.

Let's hope that doesn't happen here. But let's also be honest. The vast majority of consumers are going to be, at best, casual observers of the many distinctions between models, and not at all steeped in the increasingly complex taxonomy of handheld devices.

So the finely honed merits of any individual Phone/PDA, or, if you prefer, PDA/Phone, will lost on the great majority. And, right or wrong, the foregoing impassioned rhetoric of this thread will be roughly akin to spitting into the wind.

[Brad Adrian]

The term "smartphone" is a long-standing term which includes all PDA/phone combos, which this device is.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Several IT research/consulting groups have created definitions of mobile devices that do NOT lump all PDA/phone devices together. They recognize the difference between voice-centric and data-centric models.

[Janak Parekh]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Several IT research/consulting groups have created definitions of mobile devices that do NOT lump all PDA/phone devices together. They recognize the difference between voice-centric and data-centric models.
Unfortunately, from a mass-market perspective, this is not true--for example, Qualcomm explicitly marketed their pdQ as a smartphone, which was actually a (very, very large) Palm + phone. I should know, I owned the brick :D

Actually, Kyocera still markets their QCP-6035 PalmOS device (the successor to the pdQ) as a smartphone (http://www.kyocera-wireless.com/kysmart/kysmart_series.htm). This happens to be the first link when typing "smartphone" into Google. Now,you might consider the pdQ and the 6035 as more phone devices, since their Palm implementations are weak, but they really are closer to the PPC Phone Edition than MS Smartphone models.

I agree that the term smartphone is overloaded and think MS's nomenclature is better, but it's like the term "hacker": any device that has more than just a phone is billed as a smartphone by the mass media. This isn't going to change soon, unfortunately, IMHO. (Having said that, the MS Smartphone spec is the second main entry on Google, so there's some long-term hope--but I wouldn't bet on it.)

--bdj

[Janak Parekh]

More food for thought, while we're at it:

Check out http://www.kyocera-wireless.com/showroom/showcase/coming_soon.htm - and the corresponding link to the 7135. Darn cool form factor, if I may say.

Is that a "smartphone" or a "PDA phone"? Or, how about the Ericsson P800 (http://www.sonyericsson.com/P800/), which is a "Symbian phone" that contains an OS that's supposed to excel in both phone and data? Both can be operated one-handed, but can also function as a PDA.

I'm not so sure that, long-term, the distinction is going to be clear. Convergence is the big long-term thing in the electronics industry. "Personal communicators" are one of the Star Trek-ish futures we'd all like to investigate.

--bdj

[HR]

Maybe the failing is with MS and T-Mobile? Maybe MS should make sure to do a better job distinguishing between the two types of devices? Given that marketing types and reviewers will not succumb easily if we try to send them to a PPC re-education camp, we should make things easy for them.

We should always keep expectations low and make sure that everything is clear as daylight. One point of confusion is the name "PPC Phone Edition". We geeks know what it means, but it may raise some false expectations and association by those people. MS should rename it to something that will better convey the fact that this is a wireless PDA as oppose to a smartphone. They can then list "cellphone" as one of its features. How about "Wireless PPC", "Connected PPC", "PPC Wireless Edition"?

They should also provide information in the press releases differentiating the two products and explaining clearly who and for what purpose PPCPE should be used.

[krisbrown]

OK not realy to do with this topic, but checkout the screens for the new Samsung T100, cool gmes or what!
http://www.threegmobile.net/gallery/samsungs100/index2.html

[Janak Parekh]

Maybe the failing is with MS and T-Mobile? Maybe MS should make sure to do a better job distinguishing between the two types of devices? Given that marketing types and reviewers will not succumb easily if we try to send them to a PPC re-education camp, we should make things easy for them.
Perhaps, but I also have a feeling the mass-market thinks any device that isn't just a phone is a "smartphone". It's a name that sticks.

As for the Samsung there, it's starting to approach smartness from the other end... ;)

--bdj

[Brad Adrian]

We should always keep expectations low and make sure that everything is clear as daylight...

I think you're right on target there. I venture that no company ever went broke overestimating the ability of a marketing message to get garbled.

[njb42]

I think the problem here is that there is a difference between "smartphone", which is a generic industry term for phones with PDA-type functionality (such as the Treo, Kyocera 6035, Samsung I300, et al.) and the Microsoft Smartphone platform, which implies a very specific set of functionality.

I would argue that by calling the device a "smartphone", in lower case, they did nothing wrong.

[Scott R]

I don't really buy into the "Phone Edition" concept. IOW, I don't think that a PDA/phone which is designed for heavy usage with light phone usage can be a big seller. What's "light phone" usage? Who wants that? It comes across as a spin on "doesn't do phone stuff well". Am I saying that a PDA/phone with a large screen can't make a good phone? Not at all. Here's what's needed:

* Most importantly, a hard numeric keypad. I think the Sony P800 and the Kyocera 6035 have the right idea here. I think it's definitely doable for a PPC partner to create a flip-over numeric keypad over a O2/T-Mobile-sized device.

If you don't want to go the hard numeric keypad route, there are still ways to compensate for this:

1) Thumbboard combined with a reasonably priced unlimited usage data plan. I've coupled these together for a reason. IMO, the appeal of the Treo falls apart because of its lack of an unlimited usage plan. As if that wasn't bad enough, T-Mobile/Voicestream require you (at least officially) to use your own ISP. BTW, I read the Mossberg T-Mobile PPC review and actually agreed with most of what he said. However, I also read a past review of the Treo by him where he touted their email offering which he compared as being pretty much equivalent to the Blackerry's offering. It isn't. The Blackberry and Palm i705, AFAIK, will pretty much immediately notify you when you get an email. All this is covered under their $35-50 unlimited usage plans. With the Treo, you can set it to automatically check for email every 30 minutes (at most). If you set it to only check between 7am and 10pm (15 hours), you're looking at using a minimum of 30 minutes a day (900 minutes a month) just to check for email. That's assuming it takes less than a minute to get any messages that you might have gotten. So, realistically, we're talking about more than 900 minutes/month. Mossberg mentioned that the minutes could add up, but didn't do the math to show just how bad it could be. Back to the point of #1...How does this compensate for not having a hard numeric keypad? Well, it doesn't, it just makes up for it by offering a separate very appealing feature (email/IM) with an input method optimized for these features (the thumbboard) which wouldn't have been possible had they used a hard numeric keypad.

2) Voice dialing and one-handed scroll/select of phone numbers. From what I've seen of the O2/T-Mobile device, it appears to lack the one handed ability. I don't remember about the voice dialing. My Samsung i300 offers both of these features and I find that, for most people I'm calling, I rarely have to resort to using the virtual numeric keypad.

Scott

[Scott R]

Whoops...I knew when I got that long-winded, I'd forget part of the point of my post. As I mentioned, the O2/T-Mobile device appears to lack some of the features (hard numeric keypad, one-handed scroll/select buttons) to make it a better phone device. It also lacks a reasonably priced unlimited data plan. This isn't good. IMO, if you're going to offer a data-focused PDA device, you need to:

1) Do the phone side right (see my previous comments). Or,

2) Drop the "phone" side altogether, realizing that by missing #1, people are going to need to carry a separate phone. You can do this either by offering an alternative wireless data method (ala GPRS only, CPDP, Mobitex), or by using Bluetooth (which would need to be paired with a Bluetooth phone).

Just my thoughts.

Scott

[Janak Parekh]

I don't really buy into the "Phone Edition" concept. IOW, I don't think that a PDA/phone which is designed for heavy usage with light phone usage can be a big seller.
It's probably not intended to be a big seller, and I think that's part of everyone's point here... it's a data unit that appeals to business users, etc. first, but also has the phone capabilities built-in so that you don't have to carry another device. It isn't a terrible phone, in that it has custom ringtones, vibration, and all of the integration of PPC Phone Edition.

What's "light phone" usage? Who wants that?
I think this is only one interpretation. Several reviewers here have said this has supplanted their cell phone entirely. However, it's not for the "talkers" who you see walking 20 blocks while chatting away on the cell phone -- it's too uncomfortable for that (at least, in my opinion). Besides, if you were a talker, would you have time to actually surf and do email? In NYC, there are a lot of such people who'd rather chat their life away ;)

As if that wasn't bad enough, T-Mobile/Voicestream require you (at least officially) to use your own ISP.
This is because the Treo doesn't support GPRS yet! VS/T-Mobile offers data plans where they are the ISP if you go the iStream route. In fact it is theoretically possible to use them as a dial-up ISP too, but they make it very hard to do so (it's only really supported for WAP applications on their older phones).

However, I also read a past review of the Treo by him where he touted their email offering which he compared as being pretty much equivalent to the Blackerry's offering. It isn't.
Agreed on this and also on the PPC Phone Edition. You can use SMS as a workaround, but neither are always-on email solutions like the Blackberry.

Unmetered data is the first step towards solving this. I think Verizon has an unmetered plan as one of their 1xRTT choices. It'll be coming, but for now the carriers want to recoup costs. This will indeed slow adoption for now.

Voice dialing and one-handed scroll/select of phone numbers.
Unfortunately, it doesn't offer either. It was a tradeoff they did for size and simplicity, I guess. Of course, it really depends on where you are going to use the device. In NY, where you can't drive and talk at the same time, and where you have lots of mass commutation, it's a lot less of a problem--and as such the device still appeals to me given its shortcomings.

--bdj

[Janak Parekh]

Drop the "phone" side altogether, realizing that by missing #1, people are going to need to carry a separate phone. You can do this either by offering an alternative wireless data method (ala GPRS only, CPDP, Mobitex), or by using Bluetooth (which would need to be paired with a Bluetooth phone).
Carrying phone functionalities in the unit doesn't increase the size much; the size of this thing is very comparable to the i705, so I don't view it as a loss. If you really want data-only, you can get plans from VS that are very, very cheap on the phone side.

Again, it's not a combination that's going to appeal to the mass-market at this time, but it's a first step, and for the power PPC user, it's a big win.

Case in point: witness the relative success of the Nokia 9290, which is absolutely huge, and as such is poor as a cell-phone. Admittedly, it has a keyboard, which is why it's huge, but that is a device that could have been data-only as well... people do like having the convergence so they can carry one thing, and are willing to put up with inconveniences at this point.

--bdj

[Scott R]

It's probably not intended to be a big seller, and I think that's part of everyone's point here...
"Big seller" is definitely relative, but I'd argue that every company involved here intends/wants this to be a "big seller," otherwise they wouldn't be selling it at all.

Unmetered data is the first step towards solving this. I think Verizon has an unmetered plan as one of their 1xRTT choices. It'll be coming, but for now the carriers want to recoup costs. This will indeed slow adoption for now.

Verizon doesn't offer unmetered. They offer an add-on plan which allows you to use any amount of your voice minutes for "high speed" data. The add-on is expensive (at least $25, if not more) and using up your voice minutes means it's far from unmetered. T-Mobile's high-speed GPRS plans max out at 20MB. When you're dealing with a PPC with it's "real browser" (i.e. - non-proxy server), 20MB aint much.

Maybe the cell phone companies will eventually offer reasonably priced unmetered "high speed" options (you'll note my quotes because from what I've been reading, even the 2.5G/GPRS networks don't seem to be up to 56K), but it doesn't appear like it's coming anytime soon. I know that no one here likes to hear me say it, but right now Palm.net and some of the Blackberry partners seem to be offering the best bang for the buck, even with the relative low speed of the Mobitex network, though even these plans are too expensive to catch on with the mass market.

The Danger folks originally claimed that their partners would be offering unlimited data for $25/month but that claim disappeared. Recently, it reappeared, only now it's $40/month. Not awful, but still a ways to go for mass-market adoption.

Scott

[Scott R]

Case in point: witness the relative success of the Nokia 9290, which is absolutely huge, and as such is poor as a cell-phone. Admittedly, it has a keyboard, which is why it's huge, but that is a device that could have been data-only as well... people do like having the convergence so they can carry one thing, and are willing to put up with inconveniences at this point.
Not sure if I agree with your case here. Yes, the 9290 is big. Too big. But it's a pretty good phone thanks to its hard numeric keypad and decent durability. The downsides are, again, that it's too big, and also that you apparently have to flip it over when talking (akward).

My point is that by dropping the phone altogether, you can get it even smaller/thinner while still retaining a good sized screen. Bluetooth would require much less battery life than the phone technology would.

Scott

[njb42]

In fact it is theoretically possible to use them as a dial-up ISP too, but they make it very hard to do so (it's only really supported for WAP applications on their older phones).

Actually they tell you to set up Voicestream GPRS as a DUN connection when you're using Bluetooth. I have my iPAQ set to dial *99***2# over the Bluetooth virtual COM port, no username or password. It must be a special dial string that tells the T68 to make a GPRS connection without actually dialing anything (if it dialed you'd get CSD and not GPRS). Voicestream tech support gave me the dial string to use.

Unmetered data is the first step towards solving this. I think Verizon has an unmetered plan as one of their 1xRTT choices.

They do indeed have a $99/month all-you-can-eat 1xRTT data plan now. That's over and above the voice plan (and you must choose a plan of $35 or more). If I listened to net radio on my iPAQ or something, it might be worthwhile. But $19.99 for 5MB/month at VS is more than I need right now -- enough for me to check my mail when I'm on the run.

[Janak Parekh]

Not sure if I agree with your case here. Yes, the 9290 is big. Too big. But it's a pretty good phone thanks to its hard numeric keypad and decent durability. The downsides are, again, that it's too big, and also that you apparently have to flip it over when talking (akward).
... and it doesn't have vibration. Killer in my case.

My point is that by dropping the phone altogether, you can get it even smaller/thinner while still retaining a good sized screen. Bluetooth would require much less battery life than the phone technology would.
Well, the bluetooth route is already here, and is being used by quite a few. I think your other assertion will be tested by the rumored iPaq 5000, which is apparently going to be a GPRS + WiFi + maybe Bluetooth device, which I think would fit the bill. I do admit a GPRS + WiFi device would be infinitely handy, as I am often now in 802.11b areas, be it home, school, or at clients where I've set it up.

However, the PPC Phone Edition is actually quite small, smaller than most non-data-capable PPC's (with the exception of the e310, of course). I had the opportunity to pick it up at PC Expo. It's an amazing little piece of tech. If you want to get much smaller than it you have to make a PPC with a smaller display.

--bdj

p.s. njb42: I know about the *99***2# bit, I use it with my T68 all the time. I'm referring to a non-GPRS dialup to VS, which is unsupported by them. You have to dial an "ISDN" number.

[HR]

I don't really buy into the "Phone Edition" concept. IOW, I don't think that a PDA/phone which is designed for heavy usage with light phone usage can be a big seller. What's "light phone" usage? Who wants that? Me!

Good for you and all other users who think like you. I, as many other users, want a connected PDA first, and a side phone to make occasional calls second. So this type of "what *I* prefer" argument is not worth arguing about.

Imagine if I would look at the Treo or P800 and argue that it was not designed with heavy data use, as it has little processing power, little storage and tiny screen. See the futility of such arguments?

The fact is that many consumers have many different preferences and companies create several variations of products to suit their tastes. Look at the car market: How many types of SUVs exist now? You can buy anything from rough traditional off-roader to the most luxurious and performance driven one, and anything in between. That's how consumer product usually work.

[jdhill]

I don't really buy into the "Phone Edition" concept. IOW, I don't think that a PDA/phone which is designed for heavy usage with light phone usage can be a big seller. What's "light phone" usage? Who wants that?
Me!

Good for you and all other users who think like you. I, as many other users, want a connected PDA first, and a side phone to make occasional calls second.
Me too!

I'm a relatively light cell phone user. In fact, I normally keep my cell phone turned off. I use it primarily for outgoing calls, rarely for incoming calls. People know that and don't try to call me at my cell number. My pager and wireless e-mail are the primary ways to reach me.

During an average month, I use between 60 and 120 minutes of talk time. I don't need thousands of voice minutes. I won't use them.

So for me, a PDA/Phone would work well. For you a Phone/PDA may work well. Someone else might want only a phone or only a PDA.

Remember, YMMV (your milage may vary). It depends on what your needs and usage patterns are.