Pocket PC phones - the media doesn't get it.

[Ed Hansberry]

Have you people seen these asinine reviews of the new T-Mobile Pocket PC phone? These people simply do not get it. No one expects Joe Blow to rush down to his local T-Mobile store and trade in his free Nokia for the Pocket PC phone. Here, let me help with the basics.<br /><br /><b>1.</b> The Pocket PC phone is about data first.<br /><b>2.</b> The Pocket PC phone is about data first.<br /><b>3.</b> The Pocket PC phone is about data first.<br /><br />There. I think that covers it. Lets see what the media has to say about the T-Mobile. First you have the Wall Street Journal's Walt Mossberg column saying <a href="http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20020801.html">First-Edition Pocket PC Phone Has Flaws in Both Functions</a>. His biggest complaints are in comparing the device to the Handspring Treo. Despite his love affair with the Palm PDAs over the years and the Graffiti alphabet you must learn, he is suddenly opposed to anything without a thumb keyboard. We'll see if that criticism holds up with non-Microsoft Products, like the Sony-Ericsson P800. In his <a href="http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20020509.html">review of the Thera back in May</a>, he was critical of the lack of integration throughout the device of the phone side to the data side. That is because the Thera is a plain Pocket PC with a third party dialer. The Pocket PC 2002 Phone Edition has that integration, right down to tapping a phone number in an email to make a call. He keeps hammering on the needs of heavy voice users. Mr. Mossberg - see my list above. Refer to number 1. Heavy voice users will likely not be interested in either the Treo or Pocket PC Phones. The latter has about 4 hours of talk time, besting the Treo, but still pales in comparison to what cell phones can offer.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/xda-tmobile.jpg" /><br /><br />Ok, enough about Walt. Lets move on to this well thought out <a href="http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/technology/3778109.htm">review in the Mercury Times</a> by Jon Fortt. "I could tell before I even switched it on that I was going to be disappointed. The device is not made with me in mind." He as a Samsung N200 phone and a Palm Vx. "I like them both. But if I had to toss one off the Golden Gate Bridge, it would be bye-bye, Palm." There is a shocker. You could live without your PDA and you wonder why you don't like the Pocket PC Phone. Mr. Fortt, please pass the T-Mobile to someone else in your organization that lives and dies by their PDA for a fair evaluation. Your review and comments make about as much sense as a soccer mom complaining about seating room in a Porsche Boxter.<br /><br />Lets move on to David Berlind's <a href="http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2876220,00.html">review at ZDNet</a>. "PDA-phone convergence represents yet another challenge for hardware manufacturers: battery life. Unlike normal PDAs, where users turn off their devices in between sessions, a converged device has to stay on all the time if you want to receive phone calls, SMS messages, and other alerts. Microsoft officials tell me they've been getting about three to four hours of usage per charge. [That is talk time] I made quite a few calls with my test unit, also using it in PDA mode enough times to give the battery a run for its money, but the device lasted the better part of a day before warning me that it needed refueling. That said, any device that has to return to the refueling station every three to four hours but that can't have extra batteries easily attached or detached would not last very long on the market."<br /><br />Hello. {tap}{tap}{tap} Is this thing on? David, you get four hours of talk time, 150 hrs of stand by. You do not have to keep the device on to get a phone call or SMS messages. You leave the phone side of the device on just as you would a normal phone. Turn the PDA off. When you get a phone call or SMS message, the PDA side will wake up, give you the SMS alert balloon, flash an LED or play a fart noise from a wav file, whatever you want. David, when you have actually used the T-Mobile, give us a call so we can read your updated review. You and Josh Taylor, who wrote <a href="http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stories/story/0,10738,2876245,00.html">this ZDNet review</a>, go have lunch together and figure out what you want to do with your futures. I stopped reading his review when I hit this sentence in the first paragraph. "While this gadget is impressive, it's still more Pocket PC than phone. And that, for me, means it can be simply maddening."<br /><br />Have I missed any other reviews? These people simply don't get what a Pocket PC phone is about. It isn't about replacing your phone with a converged device. It is about shedding your cell phone if you are a PDA addict that uses their cell phone sparingly or wants mobile internet access anywhere you travel. Quit blasting the device because it isn't a phone. It <b><i>ISN'T</i></b> supposed to be. <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif" />

[PhatCohiba]

Right On Ed.

If you want a Phone First, you want a smartphone. Pocket PC & Pocket PC Phone are two handed devices (Device in one, stylus in the other). A smart Phone has a full set of phone buttons and you control the screen with the buttons (no stylus).

If you're like me with a IPAQ & WiFi, or even connecting my ipaq seriallly to a 14.4 phone to check email via VPN / IMAP to Exchange, then this makes sense. If your home page is www.mazingo.net/mobile so you can connect directly to the internet from your pocket pc, then this starts to make sense.

[karen]

I thought the criticisms in the ZDNet article were fair and dead on, for the most part.

When someone converges two technologies, they should make dang sure that the basics of the original items are still there. A screw on battery? What are they thinking? Do they even give these things to real power users to run through their paces? A non-user replaceable battery in phone? I guess they assume that all users will be sitting at their desks all day with the dang thing plugged into the charger? Power users, like the ones who might purchase this thing TRAVEL. They roam the city. They don't sit a desk all day. They go to meetings. They make presentations.

A phone device that won't shut off completely, finally, and without losing data? Have the designers never flown on a real plane?

The only thing that I felt was off in the article was the whining about the lack of accessories like keyboards. He should know that vendors just LOVE dumping gadgets on the market long before the doodads are available. That, and the complaining about the slow roll out of GPRS. That should have been in a different article.

I think his recommendations for bettter integration between phone functionality and PIM functions are reasonable. They wouldn't be difficult to do and really would make this device unique in the market of converged gadgets.

If we believe his critisms are taken as not 'getting it', then we are saying that users of these types of things shouldn't expect much. If it's all about data, then we are saying that users should expect to still carry along a regular cell phone to get what they need (reliability and availability). I, for one, believe that a valuable converged device is possible. Saying that it is only for light cell phone use will be the death of PPC phones. The TCO won't be there for enterprise users.

And finally, why would you post a review about a review, then say that you didn't read the whole thing? That would be like turning on a PPC and hating the theme installed, so you pronounce it a lemon.

Just my opinion.

[MobiliT]

Sounds like the public needs educating on the difference between a Pocket PC phone edition versus a Windows powered smartphone.

I, myself, do not want a combination cell phone and PDA. I am perfectly happy with two distinct, separate gadgets. That is why I so seldom get involved in the discussions on these devices. But I wouldn't think to disuade others or give negative reviews in a press review based on this personal preference.

[Ed Hansberry]

When someone converges two technologies, they should make dang sure that the basics of the original items are still there.

How do you do that? You want the screen realestate of the PPC or the size of a Nokia 6000 series? You want the processing power of an iPAQ or the battery life of a Samsung? It is about concessions. THe PPC Phone leans towards the PDA side. Smart phones like the MS offering or P800 will make concessions towards the phone side.
A phone device that won't shut off completely, finally, and without losing data? Have the designers never flown on a real plane?
You can turn it off, totally. You turn the PDA and phone features off. This is why these clueless reviews are dangerious. They are factually wrong wrong wrong.

I think his recommendations for bettter integration between phone functionality and PIM functions are reasonable.
Example of how PIM and phone features could be better integrated please?

And finally, why would you post a review about a review, then say that you didn't read the whole thing? That would be like turning on a PPC and hating the theme installed, so you pronounce it a lemon.
I didn't post a review. I posted a rant. And your analogy is off just a bit. ONe of those jokers didn't even turn it on before dislikeing it. He had only taken it out of the box!

It isn't a phone, it isn't meant to replace a phone. It is a converged device that is a strong PDA and a good phone, but it is not for voice warriors.

[marlof]

When someone converges two technologies, they should make dang sure that the basics of the original items are still there. A screw on battery? What are they thinking? Do they even give these things to real power users to run through their paces? A non-user replaceable battery in phone? I guess they assume that all users will be sitting at their desks all day with the dang thing plugged into the charger? Power users, like the ones who might purchase this thing TRAVEL. They roam the city. They don't sit a desk all day. They go to meetings. They make presentations.

This is not a phone, this is a PDA. You get excellent standby time (much more than the quote 4 hours, which is only the talk time) with this device. You can have it running, while you're on the move, all day, and only charge it at night. When I turn on Bluetooth on my T39, it lasts a max of two days. Therefor I think this is not bad at all! This is one point the reviewer didn't "get". And to be honest: I have never taken out the battery out of my T39m, or replaced it with something else. I only know of people who replace the standard battery with an extended one, and leaving that into place. That would be like screwing the battery on the device. I see absolutely no problem in that. May be you like exchanging batteries all day, but I can not easily think of a situation where that would be necessary. You shouldn't underestimate that this device is made with the help of O2 (the former British Telecom). The designers knew very much what they were doing.

A phone device that won't shut off completely, finally, and without losing data? Have the designers never flown on a real plane?

You can switch off the phone totally. It's the PDA that can give you reminders when it's off. But that has been the same with all Pocket PCs, that have been in planes for quite some time now, and suddenly it seems to be a big item.

I think his recommendations for bettter integration between phone functionality and PIM functions are reasonable. They wouldn't be difficult to do and really would make this device unique in the market of converged gadgets.

I agree here, it's good to listen to positive feedback on things that could be enhanced.

I, for one, believe that a valuable converged device is possible. Saying that it is only for light cell phone use will be the death of PPC phones. The TCO won't be there for enterprise users.

I guess this is why MS is betting on two horses: PPC Phone Edition and Smartphone 2002. One is for the data users, who like to have phone functionality on the side, the other is for the heavy phone users, who want to have data on the side.

And finally, why would you post a review about a review, then say that you didn't read the whole thing? That would be like turning on a PPC and hating the theme installed, so you pronounce it a lemon.

Ed was honest enough about not reading it. And I can understand where he's coming from. If you'd read a review on a new digital camera, and the review would start with "I was sorry that I had to review a digital camera, because I dislike digital cameras", would you think you'd be reading a fair review or not? I'd decide not to read it, as I'd have better things to do in my life.

Just my opinion.

And mine. :)

[kidoco]

Thank You, finally someone had the guts to say that not all reviews are created equal. It seems that some reviewer have forgotten to be impartial in the race to have their reviews published first. What are they doing reading the box and writting reviews based on that info alone? 8O
Come on people do your job, put things thru their paces, If you truly can't be objective give it to someone who can be objective. Be fair! Just the facts! :?
I don't know, but maybe we should start writting these reviewer to get them to wake up. :?:
But hey that's just me.
kidoco

[splintercell]

It is a converged device that is a strong PDA and a good phone, but it is not for voice warriors.

&lt;rant>
A good phone?! Are you kidding? It's relatively large for a phone, doesn't have a keypad with tacticle feedback (not necessary, but I would prefer it over an onscreen one), doesn't have voice dialing, has an atrocious battery life for a phone, and I think (just an opinion without having physically held it) that it would be uncomfortable to use it without a headset (and I like just janking a phone out of my pocket without cables or things in my ear). If it weren't for the PDA part, it would be a horrid phone.

Having said that, it seems like a neat PDA, even with the kinks it has. Battery life could be better, and the integration is pretty good for a "first-gen" device of this sort, but it needs work. However, I totally agree with Jon Fortt - if I had to choose, my Wi-Fi enabled iPaq (which I spent over $500 on total) would fly off the bridge much quicker than my $100 Motorola, which lets me browse online information that I need (who cares about the latest rant on The Register), lets me get text messages an e-mail, stores my contacts, tells the time, and connects me to people. If I wanted to play games on the road, I'd get a GBA. And as for music, my MP3 player is much smaller and has a longer battery life than a typical PDA, and it's not like I am going to strap an iPaq to my arm when I work out. Convergence is all good and fine, but not for everybody. And I definitely would want my phone to pick up the slack PDA features, and not the other way round.

Oh, and they really could have come up with a more memorable and appealing name. It's a pretty device and they have smashing spokesperson, so why let it down.

&lt;/rant>

[ram]

Ed, even though your post has some valid reasons abt mocking the article, I think only being doing a fair review of the pocketPC phone yourself, can you oppose the statements given in the review. I read this in cnet. Now, don't flame me if it is not correct, but consistently, we have found that manufacturers hype up battery time or do not give the testing conditions (such ridiculous battery life when u keep the pocketpc ON without doing NOTHING is a big bogus)

"built-in lithium-polymer battery powers the Phone Edition. In our tests, we managed about 30 minutes short of its rated 4 hours of talk time and met only about one-third of the promised 100 hours of standby time. "

why do pocketpc/palm users keep accusing each other.. Good competition exist only when one outdoes the other (when pocketpc came out, it outdid palm in certain areas, color, music, internet.. now, pocketpc has to learn from sony's lcd screen and audio quality)..

no offense, it is very unprofessional to blast another website/reviewer's comments (form users can do that, but one of the website editors!) in the front of the webpage, this would only lead to chain reaction (as mistakes happen everywhere and pocketpcthoughts is not immune)

sorry, didn't mean to keep my post long..
ram

[fmcpherson]

I think in general published reviews of any technology today are virtually useless. The best place to get good information is in message boards, newsgroups and weblogs where real people who have used the technology for reasonable amount of times can come to some good conclusions and are willing to share them.

The mainstream press is motivated by selling copies of their newspapers and magazines. It seems that the current playbook is that anything that bashes Microsoft sells.

[palmsolo]

I don't understand why companies keep giving these mainstream media types these wonderful devices to review when they have no idea what the device is even designed for. As Ed stated, the T-Mobile (XDA) is a Pocket PC first and a phone second. I wish the reviewers would compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges and stop posting their trash. T-Mobile and others should follow the Fossil example and get their products out to real users like us for unbiased, reliable reviews.

[Master O'Mayhem]

All i can say is that after using this device for the last two months, I really cant live without it. Sure its a pain to dial when i'm driving but then again i shouldnt be using it while driving. As for the sweat, I have notices this as well but that was me holding it in the crook of my neck while my hands were free and in Vegas in 118 degree heat. I Put a screen protector on it and dont worry about that at all. I used an old Writerite protector. Hey if you need a thumb pad im sure there will be one coming from someone, but for God sake's, He compares this to a TREO? HAHAHAHAHAHAH What a joke the TREO is. It is a totaly inferior device. If Walt Mossberg is happy with the TREO then fine. Then he is still probably happy with his PET ROCk as his best friend.

[Master O'Mayhem]

I don't understand why companies keep giving these mainstream media types these wonderful devices to review when they have no idea what the device is even designed for. As Ed stated, the T-Mobile (XDA) is a Pocket PC first and a phone second. I wish the reviewers would compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges and stop posting their trash. T-Mobile and others should follow the Fossil example and get their products out to real users like us for unbiased, reliable reviews.

That is how i explain the differnce between the PocketPC phone editon and the SmartPhone. PPC2K2PE is a PocketPC with Phone Functionality built in. The SmartPhone is a Phone with PocketPC functionality built in. See the difference?

[Venturello]

Having said that, it seems like a neat PDA, even with the kinks it has. Battery life could be better, and the integration is pretty good for a "first-gen" device of this sort, but it needs work. However, I totally agree with Jon Fortt - if I had to choose, my Wi-Fi enabled iPaq (which I spent over $500 on total) would fly off the bridge much quicker than my $100 Motorola, which lets me browse online information that I need (who cares about the latest rant on The Register), lets me get text messages an e-mail, stores my contacts, tells the time, and connects me to people.

Eh... lol. I would throw the $100 phone, since all that you describe is accomplished by the $500 device too, and a lot more. And anyway, the whole 'throw from bridge' thing is stupid, I would throw the cheapest thing nevertheless.

Which one would I take on a trip? Eh... if the PPCPE will let me do all the things the phone do, and more, what do you think I would choose?

Only advantage I can see about the phone is size, but even so, the PPCPE are small enough for my needs. And battery life? Im used to charge my phone and devices every night anyway, even if they could last days with no charge.

[dugn]

Like the first post-Ed comment: RIGHT ON ED!

It continues to stun and surprise me how the suppossed 'experts' writing for these high-tech mags and web sites still often fail to identify the market to which a device or a solution is targeted. So often, these 'reviewers' get a gadget that doesn't fit into the framework of their daily duties and they start telling us why the darned thing won't ever make it in the market. It reminds me of the same reason I got out of studying psychology early in college; the Teachers Assistants were those who wanted to solve their own problems through other people's therapy sessions.

Hey you 'experts'! Stop inflicting your narrow view of the way the world turns (it doesn't rotate around you, you know) - and try thinking outside the box as to what markets the device or solution would be good for (and why) and which markets it would not be well-suited for.

Funny - no one knew why they'd need more than 640K, a fax machine, mousse, a cell phone or a computer actually in their home until someone came along and introduced the idea to them. Nowadays, it's hard to think of life without these things (well, skip the mousse).

Anyway - the world moves on. And only the truly wise reviewers will be able to see beyond their small little world to see the next advances. Hopefully, we'll get more of these types of reviewers in the future. CHeers!

[splintercell]

I would throw the $100 phone, since all that you describe is accomplished by the $500 device too, and a lot more.

True, but most of the time I don't need the "more". But I do need extended battery life (I come from a Palm Vx, which easily went on for a week without a cradle) and I personally (this, of course is very different for everybody) need coverage. GSM in the United States doesn't quite do it for me. For miles around where I live there is no reliable GSM signal. At my friend's house in Virginia there is none, places I go camping there is none. So having a dead phone that lets me play solitaire would be a tad inconvenient. I'd still take a PDA for entertainment or some notes, but I would feel secure in knowing that I can run its battery to the ground or even crash it and hard reset it without losing my phone functionality.

And anyway, the whole 'throw from bridge' thing is stupid, I would throw the cheapest thing nevertheless.

Granted about the bridge (hmm, but maybe while bungee jumping), but I would throw the least valuable one to me.

[denivan]

I totally agree that this review sucks. Problem is, the average consumer can't believe anyone. Companies make lies about what their products can do (for instance battery life) ; reviewers are absolutely clueless and can't do decent measurements and store clerks hardly know the difference between a palm and a pocketpc.

Like someone else said, forums and communities like this are the only place to get first hand reliable non idiotic reviews about new products. Why do we need something like Zdnet if they don't even know what a pocketpc is meant to do ?

For instance, the remark about not being able to completely turn off the device was laughable, did he ever get past the manual ? I couldn't figure out why someone like that would get paid for writing such dribble while good IT people are getting fired because of the downsizing climate in the IT world. Sometimes the world just doesn't seem fair ;-)

Btw, this emoticon seems appropriate : :microwave:

:-p

[denivan]

GSM in the United States doesn't quite do it for me. For miles around where I live there is no reliable GSM signal.

Yeah, but you really can't blame this on the manufacturer. It's no secret that the US has been lagging behind Europe a while when it comes to mobile phone development. I read stories on message boards of Americans who buy a lovely phone like a SonyEricsson T68i, but can't use it because operators in the US don't seem to care about GSM. For as far I can see , no american cell phone (CMDA) is sexy looking, so that's why the pocketpc phone editions are gsm, they're dead sexy ;)

Greetz

Ivan

[jeffmckean]

It's bad enough that all these people missed the point, but when they also have factual errors on actual features, it boggles the mind!

Frustrated doesn't even begin to describe how I feel today.

The reviewers needed to be led to expect a PDA with cellphone and packet data features, not an uber-cellphone. Somehow their expectations weren't managed.

[Ed Hansberry]

True, but most of the time I don't need the "more".
That is exactly why the Pocket PC Phone would likely not be for you. And if you are evaluating products based on your needs, you wouldn't pick one. These products should be evaluated on their merits and successfulness of hitting their target. Does the T-Mobile succeed? Well, we don't know because these guys were complaining that the T-Mobile was aiming for a different dart board entirely.

[splintercell]

Yeah, but you really can't blame this on the manufacturer.

Oh, definitely not. I still think it's a nice piece of hardware, and definitely sexy, and I wish I had GSM coverage here where I live, so that i could have a tri-band device, and go see my parents and still have the same phone (and then cry over international roaming charges). I was just making the point that dedicated phones (or smartphones for that matter) would be more valuable to me than an integrated device that ties me to a transmission technology. I can upgrade (or not) my PDA without having to worry that I will move someplace where a part of it won't work.

[splintercell]

That is exactly why the Pocket PC Phone would likely not be for you.

Sigh...unless they made a nice 1xRTT version, but alas no. But on the other hand, the reviewers (and I don't totally agree with their review methods and consequently some of the things they said) may be trying to see the success of such devices in a broader market. It's great if feature hungry techies buy these, but they are a thin sliver of the market. And I see Joe Consumer much more likely buying either an expensive PDA or maybe even a smartphone, but not this thing, until it works just as well as a good phone and a good PDA (which is very hard to do), but at that price point, why should a consumer expect compromises?

[fundmgr90210]

These reviews are written with the average consumer in mind (that's were the real market is, so it's who the reviewer wants to reach). This device, and others like it, are not for the average consumer and the reviews reflect it. This is has been my point as to why I don't think they'll sell in big numbers (unless of course the "geek" market suddenly explodes).

Incidentally, I find the "not getting it" statements best summed up however in the following Brighthand piece (I'm sure many of you have already seen it :wink: ). Maybe we want to put a little more stock in what the reviewers say.

http://www.brighthand.com/newsite/palm/views/getit.html

[GadgetDave]

I, myself, do not want a combination cell phone and PDA. I am perfectly happy with two distinct, separate gadgets. That is why I so seldom get involved in the discussions on these devices. But I wouldn't think to disuade others or give negative reviews in a press review based on this personal preference.

Agreed. e740 with Bluetooth and T68 anyday (comments, Ed?) -- plus, I can just take the T68 with me when I don't need (and don't want to damage/lose/etc the PDA), but do need the phone.

The reviews did have some vaild points, but needed to be much more objective and needed to understand the device better. All these reviewers will "get" the smartphone better, and I'll bet the reviews are better.

[Master O'Mayhem]

These reviews are written with the average consumer in mind (that's were the real market is, so it's who the reviewer wants to reach). This device, and others like it, are not for the average consumer and the reviews reflect it. This is has been my point as to why I don't think they'll sell in big numbers (unless of course the "geek" market suddenly explodes).

So I guess we should dumb it down for the average Joe right? jason is there a way that you can dumb it down for just average users? www.pocketpcthoughts.com/dumbed_down would be a good place to start.

Incidentally, I find the "not getting it" statements best summed up however in the following Brighthand piece (I'm sure many of you have already seen it :wink: ). Maybe we want to put a little more stock in what the reviewers say. Hmm I really can say that I dont take anything from brighthand literally. geez he gets paid by PALM. You dont see Steves PRO PALM spin? Thats his opinion and it is his site and he can post whatever he wants, but I dont go there for any information. That is my perogative.

[Marc Zimmermann]

A non-user replaceable battery in phone?

I have never ever seen the batteries of my cell phones after putting them in. Much like the builtin batteries of many Pocket PCs, the Phone Edition battery will likely last longer than the device's lifetime.

Power users, like the ones who might purchase this thing TRAVEL. They roam the city. They don't sit a desk all day. They go to meetings. They make presentations.

And? The battery life of this thing lasts well into 5 hours continuous use, one week of phone standby or several hours of talking. This is certainly enough for an average work day. Pop it into the cradle in the evening and you're ready to go for another day.

A phone device that won't shut off completely, finally, and without losing data? Have the designers never flown on a real plane?

The phone radio can be switched off independently from the Pocket PC. You can use the pocket PC part with the radio off.

And if David Berlind complains about his "[...] biggest concern with a virtual keypad is that I'll have trouble pressing the right key when trying to dial a number.", he should make a doctor's appointment. How can you miss those large on-screen buttons???

[blackout]

WOW. ok, both these reviews are awfully biased, in fact so obviously biased i can't believe they were published by respected media. i started with the Merc review. The guy understood how the ppc phone edition worked but somehow he just couldn't get his head around the fact that it wasn't his little cell phone. and that's just it, the only reason he gave for the two now palm os phone's superiority was their size.

but the zdnet review, holy cow. even when the reviewer described features that met his expectations, he still framed it in a negative way! holy cow! plus, yes, he did make some completely false statements. OUCH. this dude needs a lesson in reporting.

my question is this? what did microsoft do to piss off all these reviewers so bad? i can't imagine that i am *so* blinded by the fact that i like the pocket pc that i would be willing to suffer an inferior experience for the sake of fanhood. in fact i will publicly admit there are lots of pocket pcs i don't like. i'm so frustrated today, i feel like marching down to zdnet and doing a little "redecorating"

[MaximumPDA]

All we can say is... Kudos Ed. These bloated fat cat tech-poser media companies lost touch with the tech community long ago if they even were in touch. I quit buying Ziff Davis publications years ago back when Computer Shopper turned into a thin super model size magazines for soccer moms. However, they are entitled to their opinions of course even if it is ignorant. As Ed pointed out "The Pocket PC phone is about data first" this is so true. If you want a cell phone replacement that also works as a PDA wait for Microsoft's SmartPhone. I saw the SmartPhone on Wednesday and realized that that is the future of cell phones.

--Bill

[Ed Hansberry]

Agreed. e740 with Bluetooth and T68 anyday (comments, Ed?) -- plus, I can just take the T68 with me when I don't need (and don't want to damage/lose/etc the PDA), but do need the phone.
Comments? Of course! :lol: I am actually thinking of doing the exact same thing, albiet with a 3870. My reason? Compact Flash. I travel without my laptop because with my WiFi card, CF NIC and CF Modem, I can dial/VPN into anywhere and get my Audible content, Avantgo syncs and other data. The problem with just using a PPC Phone for this is the data charges. I've talked to others about this and those that really like the PPC phone also tend to take their laptops on trips 100% of the time. I am closer to 25% of the time. That other 75% I can burn through 5-10MB in a few days - especially Audible content at 4MB per day. I'd get killed on per/MB charges! I'd prefer to use the GPRS for quick emails, SMS and quicky web browsing to look something up.

T-Mobile has the t68 for $250 after $50 rebate. Now I just need to see what the deal is with my SPrint PCS contract and verify that T-Mobile works out here in the boonies. Their map is inconclusive but their customer service department said I am covered. I'll see what the reps say in town - 45mi away. :?

[scottmag]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, thanks for some good laughs, Ed. It's good to see you off on one of your delusional rants again. Of course all those mainstream technology reviews are wrong. If only they had called you first.

When I saw that T-Mobile/Voicestream (a phone company) was selling a device called the "T-Mobile Pocket PC phone" I thought perhaps it was supposed to be a phone. Thanks to you I now know that it is really a data device. I don't know how I could have been so confused there.

And how clever of you and the others here to dismiss these "mainstream" reviewers. After all, who do these companies think they are selling to? The "mainstream"? Surely not. It's the throngs of PocketPC loyalists they are really after. Many millions of the faithful will gladly plunk down US$550-800 for a data device in phone format.

Sarcasm aside, it seems that this device fixes the most glaring errors of the Thera. Mainly the integration of address book and dialer. And of the content-thin reviews I've read they seem remarkably fair to me. A PocketPC phone IS a clumsy device. It does however seem from the ZDnet review that there are some nice touches in the integration now, such creating a note from a contact entry during a phone call.

If you really want to see good PocketPC/phone devices I think you need to accept fair criticism of the things that are wrong. The early devices will be flawed. It's that way with all Microsoft-powered devices in the first generation. It's not an indictment of the OS. Fair and accurate criticism, is the way to get the manufacturers to improve. Blind devotion gets you the 1990's Chicago Bears.

Scott

[Dave Conger]

First you have the Wall Street Journal's Walt Mossberg column saying First-Edition Pocket PC Phone Has Flaws in Both Functions (http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20020801.html). His biggest complaints are in comparing the device to the Handspring Treo. Despite his love affair with the Palm PDAs...

Mossberg is a fool. I am sorry, but I can't stand to read his reviews. Being that he does love his Palm's so much and thus nothing else is good at all, he doesn't even seem to take the time to make a good review. Someone posted that maybe this was for the average consumer and that our idea of a good review is different? How do you expect a review of a product to be good if the reviewer can't even figure out how to sync the product with the desktop?

[jeffmckean]

A 'mainstream' review is when a publication like Time or Business Week reviews the device. The reviews put out by ZD Net and CNET *are* the reviews for the geeks or near-geeks. There are some glaring factual errors in these reviews; bad enough but it's also clear that these reviewers had different expectations for the device.

These devices ARE for power users. Even a Treo is for a power user (unless they never touch wireless data). The Joe and Jane Public version is likely to be a Smartphone, at least in the medium term. Long term, I don't think there's a single soul who can tell you what will be the dominant form factor.

David Berlind and the like are writing reviews that will mostly be read by technology oriented people. Everyone else will wait for Consumer Reports' cell phone comparison or something in Popular Science. Review the device from your audience's perspective.

The difficulty that some of these people had in discerning the features gives me pause. Every day they deal with technology, but my feeling is that as soon as they found something that they thought was wrong they stopped looking. I think they were looking for things to be wrong so they could validate their pre-formed opinions.

[fundmgr90210]

So what have we learned here? Well, judging from the tone of most in this thread, no major reviewer that has used the device so far likes it and it's their fault???? Oh my........

[Ed Hansberry]

So what have we learned here? No major reviewer that has used the device so far likes it and it's their fault???? Oh my........
No major reviewer that has used the device so far likes the concept. I don't put the Pocket PC Phone and Treo on the same cateogry. One plays music while I am on trips, allows me to VPN into my company network, has an SD slot with about 70MB of data and applications on it, records my voice notes and has an acceptable web browser.

The other doesn't.

[Foo Fighter]

Joni Blecher (CNET) gave it a fairly possitive review. She pretty much sums it up in one sentence.

Yes, this device is expensive, but it's also pretty impressive for a first-generation product.

There. Happy now, Ed? :P

[fundmgr90210]

So what have we learned here? No major reviewer that has used the device so far likes it and it's their fault???? Oh my........
No major reviewer that has used the device so far likes the concept. I don't put the Pocket PC Phone and Treo on the same cateogry. One plays music while I am on trips, allows me to VPN into my company network, has an SD slot with about 70MB of data and applications on it, records my voice notes and has an acceptable web browser.

The other doesn't.

So what??? They still don't like it. Most do like the Treo however (which incidentally does have a solid browser). Audiovox, HTC, Microsoft, you, and the most of the rest of the posters on this thread don't have an answer for that. End of story. It must just be easier to say they "don't get it"? Meanwhile, no body will be "getting it" or, more importantly, buying this thing.

[mikeschmidt]

I can upgrade (or not) my PDA without having to worry that I will move someplace where a part of it won't work.

This is why I don't want GSM/GPRS, Bluetooth, WiFi, etc... built into my PDA. Technologies advance at different rates (3G coming soon).

I was wondering if anyone has actually used a Nokia Communicator (not just reviewed). I feel this device was first a phone (especially early model 9000) and later became a PDA.

I use to use a 9110i before I switched to an iPaq and N6310. I have to say that I always used my spare battery.

- mike

[disconnected]

Ed,

If you're thinking about switching from Sprint to T-Mobile, is this because of the lack of Sprint phones with Bluetooth? I heard a quote from one Sprint rep that Bluetooth phones would be coming in September, but, so far, I can't find anyone else that has heard of such a thing. I don't want to switch if Sprint is going to offer Bluetooth phones a month later.

[johnegq]

Right on ED !!!

The un-educated are writing reviews for the un-educated!

[NEW4D]

Can I send or receive the fax use this XDA? is the Phone Edition include the fax capablity or I have to buy it from 3rd party. Any software heard can be used under this XDA? Help. Currently have 3870 and T39, but rarely carry them both, it is not comfortable to put two things in your pocket.

[MaximumPDA]

A 'mainstream' review is when a publication like Time or Business Week reviews the device. The reviews put out by ZD Net and CNET *are* the reviews for the geeks or near-geeks. There are some glaring factual errors in these reviews; bad enough but it's also clear that these reviewers had different expectations for the device.


Am I the only one who thinks ZiffDavis is loosing touch with the tech and near tech crowd? After reading their reviews I have to wonder how far off base and simply wrong they are on other reviews. Newer media like MaximumPC and CPU (computer power user) seem to offer a more true tech savy approach. I hope this new generation of tech mags keep with their original vision and dont turn into the McDonalds of tech like ZDNet and the like.

--Bill

[Brad Adrian]

Most do like the Treo however (which incidentally does have a solid browser). Audiovox, HTC, Microsoft, you, and the most of the rest of the posters on this thread don't have an answer for that. End of story.

Oh, puleeeeeze! The Treo has a solid browser?!? C'mon. There's no ability to turn graphics on and off, there's no address/status bar, no refresh button, no ability to save Bookmarks in hierarchial format, and on and on. Not to mention the incredibly small size of the screen on that device.

And, BTW, the Treo suffers from some of the same "faults" mentioned in the articles Ed's referring to. Its battery cannot be easily changed, cannot be operated with a single hand and ALL of the buttons (both on-screen and keyboard) are difficult to use.

Yes, most of us who work on and post to this site have a bias. We are Pocket PC enthusiasts at heart. But, that's precisely why we feel we understand these devices MUCH more than some writer who's never held or used one.

[Ed Hansberry]

Oh, puleeeeeze! The Treo has a solid browser?!? C'mon. There's no ability to turn graphics on and off, there's no address/status bar, no refresh button, no ability to save Bookmarks in hierarchial format, and on and on. Not to mention the incredibly small size of the screen on that device.

And, BTW, the Treo suffers from some of the same "faults" mentioned in the articles Ed's referring to. Its battery cannot be easily changed, cannot be operated with a single hand and ALL of the buttons (both on-screen and keyboard) are difficult to use.
FLAG ON THE PLAY!!!

Here is your yellow card for introducing facts into a subthread based on emotion. Please don't do that again.
:wink: :lol:

[Master O'Mayhem]

has an SD slot with about 70MB of data and applications on it.....

Mine has 512MB SD in it. Top that, Crappy TREO. with your WEE SCREEN and INFERIOR APPS!!!!

[Ed Hansberry]

Mine has 512MB SD in it.
You suck. :? :wink:

[Master O'Mayhem]

Mine has 512MB SD in it.
You suck. :? :wink:

Thats the Point... can a stupid TREO do all that? I dont think so.

[jdhill]

Any software heard can be used under this XDA? Help. Currently have 3870 and T39, but rarely carry them both, it is not comfortable to put two things in your pocket.
Most, if not all or the software that runs on your 3870 will run on the Pocket PC Phone Edition device from T-Mobile. They use the same ARM processor and run the same base operating system (Pocket PC 2002).

[Jason Dunn]

These reviews are written with the average consumer in mind (that's were the real market is, so it's who the reviewer wants to reach). This device, and others like it, are not for the average consumer and the reviews reflect it.

Any reviewer reviews the device for what it IS, not what it ISN'T. You couldn't drive an SUV and bitch about how it doesn't corner as well as your Lexus - if you want a Lexus, you buy a Lexus. A good reviewer puts his own opinions aside and puts on the hat of the person who WOULD buy this product. None of these guys are doing that, and that's the problem.

[BugDude10]

Really? It'll make a fart noise?? 8O

[jdhill]

Really? It'll make a fart noise?? 8O
Yup. Ring tones are wave files. If you have a fart.wav and would like it to be your ring tone (and who wouldn't???) you can certainly do that.

[Ed Hansberry]

Really? It'll make a fart noise?? 8O
Didn't think it would take someone till page 4 to comment on that. :)

[Kre]

This is a long post with some ranting thrown in for good measure... just wanted to warn those reading. :)


...When someone converges two technologies, they should make dang sure that the basics of the original items are still there. A screw on battery? What are they thinking? Do they even give these things to real power users to run through their paces? A non-user replaceable battery in phone? I guess they assume that all users will be sitting at their desks all day with the dang thing plugged into the charger. Power users, like the ones who might purchase this thing TRAVEL. They roam the city. They don't sit at a desk all day. They go to meetings. They make presentations...


Although its clear that this device is for data first, and phone use second, I absolutely agree with Karens statements above. Her points here are valid.

I think these devices have been well developed in terms of interface, but their true success boils down to a simple usability factor... theyre going to need swappable batteries. Im an advocate of this and Ive said this a thousand times, but I am convinced that this is absolutely true. Not everyone uses their handheld in the same way, with the same frequency, or for the same amount of time. Someone who thinks that just because the battery life is acceptable for them and therefore should be acceptable for everyone else, is not being realistic. This is a data device first and phone second, but both features are going to be used, both require a lot of power, and therefore will require a way of easily swapping in a fresh power supply. Internal batteries at this point are not practical here. For the enterprise, this need is especially crucial.

This hybrid would have the same battery even without the wireless data and phone capabilities, and even then it wouldnt provide good enough battery life for most. But now its supposed to share its limited power with data and voice features on top of it? Talk about spreading the battery thin.

I hear many people saying that no one will need a swappable battery for this hybrid device because afterall, they dont technically require it for their cell phones. Saying this is like comparing the fuel needs of a gas guzzling Ferrari to the thriftyness of a Kia. You dont need to swap batteries very often in your cell phone because it doesnt have a huge color screen like a handheld, fast processor, and everything else that a handheld has that a cell phone does not.

We fanatics may always try to find a way to fit a device like this into our lives by ignoring its weak points and saying that everything is OK, because as a fanatic, we want the technology so bad that we will gloss over weaknesses from time to time. But the truth is, when the masses who do not consist of fanatics like us, start using these devices, theyre going to realize all that the device can do. Theyre going to play games, listen to music, and everything else that goes along with using a handheld, in addition to going online, talking for hours via the phone and IM, and when they find out that they can only use it for two hours because their activities are guzzling battery juice like theres no tomorrow, theyre going to be disappointed, and these devices will fail in the marketplace. Its a great attempt for a first generation hybrid device. But a handhelds weakest link is its battery, and manufacturers are going to have to figure this out if they want the kind of market penetration theyre looking for. If swappable power isnt necessary, then why do we have it in every cell phone, laptop, and every other electronic device on the planet? Because perhaps not everyone uses their devices the same way? For cripes sake, we even have swappable power in plastic toys that we give to our kids on Christmas! But its not important for a productivity/communication tool like a handheld or a hybrid? Why would a handheld be an exception? Cell phone, laptop, and electronics manufacturers have come to understand this is a necessary feature for most people even if its not for some, and not just for the purpose of continual power availability but for convenience sake as well, otherwise they never would have incorporated it. So how much more important would this feature be in any handheld and hybrid device like this? Batteries in handhelds are weak enough, but to add in both wireless data and phone functionality into that same device without adding swappable capability to the battery, is illogical and just plain stupid.

Because batteries are not good enough, usability is reduced, and I am convinced this is one of the biggest issues as to why handhelds and hybrids are not more popular than what they are. Battery life is not the sexiest or most exciting thing to discuss, but its the weakest link, and as they say, youre only as strong as your weakest part.



...The battery life of this thing lasts well into 5 hours continuous use, one week of phone standby or several hours of talking. This is certainly enough for an average work day. Pop it into the cradle in the evening and you're ready to go for another day...


How could anyone say how long this thing will last? No one knows how long its going to last, because everyone uses their devices differently. No one can talk about battery life as though its gas mileage and that everyone with the same car is going to get the same miles per gallon. I can tell you right now, with wireless data and phone capability, this thing isnt going to last anything close to five hours of continuous use. How you use a device wont be the same way another person uses it. Maybe five hours for you, but only two hours for me.

Battery life should be measured based on continuous use and under the heaviest possible strain. And by that, I mean with the backlight on the highest setting while simultaneously using the wireless capabilities and listening to music in the background at higher volume. Or with the backlight on the highest setting while on the phone and playing a game or accessing files on the device, all at the same time. This is how many people would truly like to be able to use their handhelds. This is the kind of multitasking ability and freedom of use that nobody would say no to. And based on those results, no matter how hard a person pushed their device, they could much more accurately know what the minimum battery life would be.

Its frustrating to me that battery tests are never conducted according to real life, but only according to compromises, like having the backlighting on a lower setting or not on at all, and with only one activity going on at once. What good does that do? These are multitasking devices, and if a person cant take advantage of that, but instead must reduce productivity as well as compromise on usability factors like screen brightness, how are handhelds and hybrids ever going to reach their potential? How are they ever going reach the pinnacle of their usefulness in peoples lives if we have to constantly be concerned about battery life? These devices in a large way represent freedom, but the power running them does not. Battery life needs to be transparent in the way that a user doesnt have to think about it much, but rather can just focus on being productive or having fun, and if necessary, swap out the old battery for a fresh one to keep going.

Continually adding in more functions with only marginal changes or no changes at all to battery life and control in order to match the needs of the device, again, is just stupid, and shows that these manufacturers are not thinking this through. It shows that they do not use these devices, do not run real life usage tests, are trying to cut corners with design, and could not care less.

We see memory increases, processor speed increases, UI improvements, core OS changes, ease of use and other functional improvements taking place, screen improvements, chassis changes, and new feature implementations, but barely ever does anyone see any truly significant improvements to battery life or to the users ability to swap them in and out. Why not? And when I say significant changes, Im not talking about adding a measly thiry minutes to an hour of battery life. Im talking about really significant changes.

I understand that this thread deals with much, much more than this, but I am just so tired of never seeing any improvements in this area. Its one of the most neglected areas of handhelds and hybrids, and no one can be wrong for questioning it.

[HR]

Same discussion is taking place on PDABuzz, except that many are biased toward Palm and other platforms. Most of them make the mistake that the WSJ made, ie comparing it to a smartphone (eg Treo) and then complaining that the device is not a very good smartphone. Here is a copy of my response to them:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many reviewers and PDA and phone geeks in general, make the mistake of not distinguishing between cellphones with PDA functionality (ie smartphone, p800, etc.) and wireless PDAs. These are not the same. If you want heavy phone use, then use a smartphone, but if you make occasional calls and prefer the power/storage/screen capabilities of a PDA, then use a wireless PDA. You can't judge this device as cellphone and then fault it for not being a good cellphone. Imagine if I would judge a smartphone for being a lousy PDA because of lack of storage, power and tiny screen size?

What would your opinion of a car reviewer be if he test-drove an SUV and then complained that it did not perform like his 4-door sedan?

Wireless PDA make a lousy cellphones. Smartphones make a lousy PDAs. Just recognize what device you are looking at and assess it on its merits.

[psyfactor]

Really? It'll make a fart noise?? 8O
Yup. Ring tones are wave files. If you have a fart.wav and would like it to be your ring tone (and who wouldn't???) you can certainly do that.


:lol:

btw , I found this site, quite funny http://www.createafart.com/

[fundmgr90210]

Oh, puleeeeeze! The Treo has a solid browser?!? C'mon. There's no ability to turn graphics on and off, there's no address/status bar, no refresh button, no ability to save Bookmarks in hierarchial format, and on and on. Not to mention the incredibly small size of the screen on that device.

And, BTW, the Treo suffers from some of the same "faults" mentioned in the articles Ed's referring to. Its battery cannot be easily changed, cannot be operated with a single hand and ALL of the buttons (both on-screen and keyboard) are difficult to use.
FLAG ON THE PLAY!!!

Here is your yellow card for introducing facts into a subthread based on emotion. Please don't do that again.
:wink: :lol:

HAHAHA....That's about what I would expect....Are you kidding with that??? This entire thread was started with your reasonless, EMOTIONAL rant.

You didn't like the reviews your fave product was getting so you went off. I don't know how many times I have to say it before it sinks in (and Brad, you should do yourself a favor and listen up here as well), your opinion of the Treo, Blazer, whatever is just that...an opinion!

The reviewers in question gave their opinions. They don't currently like the PPC Phone Edition devices. They do like the Treo. Don't whine....get over it.

Quite pointing to "features" and start paying attention to how those well those "features" are executed. You want to run against the rest of the market? More power to you, no one's stopping you. It doesn't mean however that the rest of us "don't get it", are "biased", or are simply "emotional".

[jdhill]

btw , I found this site, quite funny http://www.createafart.com/
The ladies on this site are going to just love you for that link !!! :wink:

Sorry ladies, it's a guy thing. :twisted:

[fundmgr90210]

These reviews are written with the average consumer in mind (that's were the real market is, so it's who the reviewer wants to reach). This device, and others like it, are not for the average consumer and the reviews reflect it.

Any reviewer reviews the device for what it IS, not what it ISN'T. You couldn't drive an SUV and bitch about how it doesn't corner as well as your Lexus - if you want a Lexus, you buy a Lexus. A good reviewer puts his own opinions aside and puts on the hat of the person who WOULD buy this product. None of these guys are doing that, and that's the problem.

No, that's the problem for you. I value what they're saying (and would value the same criticism or kudos for any Palm or Symbian devices).

I'm sure the reviewers in question are big boys and could care less, but this and the "Walt loves his Treo" thread are the equivalent of:

"If I can't get my way then I'm taking my ball and going home"

Fine with me, don't listen to them and others that "don't get it" and retreat further into obscurity.

[marlof]

Fine with me, don't listen to them and others that "don't get it" and retreat further into obscurity.

I think you're funny. In short your point of view comes across like: "I don't care if they make factual errors and base their opinion on that, I don't care if they compare this to a device that it's not and base their opinion on that, I don't care if some openly go into their review with a bias against Pocket PCs and still state an opinion on a connected Pocket PC, I still think they're able to do, and that they did, a fair review of a Pocket PC phone edition. And no matter what you say, I know people are not going to buy this device because it sucks. And my Treo beats your Pocket PC Phone Edition anyday."

If a reviewer places himself in the shoes of the prospective buyer, and starts looking how this unit will work for someone who want's a connected data device, that can double as a phone, *then* I would have a higher opinion of their view then now. Also if they don't like the device, when I like it. They don't have to like what I like, but they should realize *what* they're reviewing before writing the review. That's the point of Ed's rant, which you don't get. And probably will never get.

[PlayAgain?]

I hate it when people give half herated reviews, those who use a device for half an hour and then feel that they are sufficiently experienced to write about it in great detail wind me up.

But you gotta take the good with the bad. Not everybody is going like what you love, just in the same way you don't like all that others love.

The same thing happened when someone from the Washington Post (I think it was) reviewed the Nokia 9290. He completely missed the plot, complained about missing functionality that was there under his nose; he just didn't know the device. His review was a long lie, just like these reviews that Ed mentioned here.....

Of course, the folks here loved that 9290 review, despite its economy of truth. Funny that. :roll:

[topps]

I think in general published reviews of any technology today are virtually useless. The best place to get good information is in message boards, newsgroups and weblogs where real people who have used the technology for reasonable amount of times can come to some good conclusions and are willing to share them.



I agree somewhat with that - people like us find general reviews useless...but they are still the most read by John Q Public - so while inaccurate, they are more influential than the specialty sites for the great mass of unwashed out there. This can be very frustrating to all of us in the know and I expect is one of the factors that triggered Ed's rant.

For those who are not convinced that these general reviews have more influence on the whole, consider a situation where you have read a general review in an area where you are not familiar with the stuff being discussed eg dishwashers, poetry books, I dunno but you get my drift (I hope) - when we don't know any better, we tend to assume that the person who is writing the review at least has some clue about what he/she is talking about. Maybe it comes back to that old saw about never believe what you read in the paper etc - think about occasions, usually in more local press, where the details of a story clearly appear wrong to you because you are closer to the situation than the writer is. Yes, journalists do try to get the details right but they are under lots of pressure to produce something readable and interesting with a tight deadline - the way the industry is setup as a whole is not conducive to rewarding accuracy of information over making it interesting to read.

Sorry, I'm getting a bit vague and rambly on this.

[Ed Hansberry]

Fine with me, don't listen to them and others that "don't get it" and retreat further into obscurity.
Interesting comment considering Pocket PCs are nearly 30% of the market, up from the low teens over the past 18-24 months, while Palm OS has slipped from the mid 80% range well into the low 50% range, and the only reason they haven't slipped further is Sony is making a strong showing.

Decline=Retreating

[fundmgr90210]

Fine with me, don't listen to them and others that "don't get it" and retreat further into obscurity.
Interesting comment considering Pocket PCs are nearly 30% of the market, up from the low teens over the past 18-24 months, while Palm OS has slipped from the mid 80% range well into the low 50% range, and the only reason they haven't slipped further is Sony is making a strong showing.

Decline=Retreating

Ah yes, the market share talk. Haven't we had this conversation recently:

1) Treo's (solid sellers at this point) are smartphones and not included in the data (which also means Kyocera & Samsung aren't either);

2) Palm and licensees are set to release handhelds with a completely new OS obviously causing many to wait to upgrade;

3) Your comment concerning Sony is one of the best of all time. How exactly does it make your point? But your right, the Yankees are just an average team if you take away Clemens, Serriano, and Jeter. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

I think comparing the T-Mobile to a Treo is just fine - both are PDA/Phone combo devices. The fact that Walt is so stuck on a keyboard is his opinion, and he's entitled to that. If he thinks the Treo kicks ass, so be it - perhaps it does.

But what isn't fair, and what is causing so many of us here to rail, is that you simply can't compare it to a cell phone. It's not a cell phone, it never will be a cell phone. It's bigger, heavier, and nowhere near as specialized as a cell phone. Any reviewer stuck in "comparison" mode for the whole review isn't much of a journalist. Every device needs to be evaluated on its own merits. At the end, when it comes down to price, you can draw comparisons to competative devices and say that "X" offers all the same features for "X" dollars less - that's fine. But to come out of the gate swinging with a "I don't like this device because it's not as good as my cell phone" is simply ignorant.

[fundmgr90210]

Fine with me, don't listen to them and others that "don't get it" and retreat further into obscurity.

I think you're funny. In short your point of view comes across like: "I don't care if they make factual errors and base their opinion on that, I don't care if they compare this to a device that it's not and base their opinion on that, I don't care if some openly go into their review with a bias against Pocket PCs and still state an opinion on a connected Pocket PC, I still think they're able to do, and that they did, a fair review of a Pocket PC phone edition. And no matter what you say, I know people are not going to buy this device because it sucks. And my Treo beats your Pocket PC Phone Edition anyday."

If a reviewer places himself in the shoes of the prospective buyer, and starts looking how this unit will work for someone who want's a connected data device, that can double as a phone, *then* I would have a higher opinion of their view then now. Also if they don't like the device, when I like it. They don't have to like what I like, but they should realize *what* they're reviewing before writing the review. That's the point of Ed's rant, which you don't get. And probably will never get.

That's good, as I think you're equally as funny. You've been waiting for and talking a lot about this device, so it's no wonder you think it must be the reviewers (incidentally a lot of them) and not the device. But let's break your statement down a little shall we:

1) They didn't make a lot of factual errors;

2) "Basing the review on what this device is not???" This is the funny part: T-Mobile (a cell phone company no less) is marketing this as (drumroll....are you ready?)....a PHONE! Can't say I blame them as the OS it runs is called PPC 2002 PHONE EDITION!

3) So to please you these reviewers should have gone out and told their readers "Pay more for this PDA (not a great one at that) with a half baked phone. But wait, you'll have to keep spending as you'll need to keep your current phone as well"?

Look if you think that they've got it all wrong, I'm sure the market will bear that out, right?

[Janak Parekh]

2) "Basing the review on what this device is not???" This is the funny part: T-Mobile (a cell phone company no less) is marketing this as (drumroll....are you ready?)....a PHONE! Can't say I blame them as the OS it runs is called PPC 2002 PHONE EDITION!
I don't see this. If you go to either www.voicestream.com or www.t-mobile.com (the new version of their homepage) they go to great lengths to segregate the PPC Phone Ed and the Blackberry from the rest of their products in their online store.

T-Mobile is far from a cell phone company. They are a wireless provider. They are the ones now selling 802.11b access in Starbucks around the US, for example.

3) So to please you these reviewers should have gone out and told their readers "Pay more for this PDA (not a great one at that) with a half baked phone. But wait, you'll have to keep spending as you'll need to keep your current phone as well"?
Huh? I don't see Marlof's interpretation to be anywhere near this. It's a solid PDA with phone abilities. You can use it as a phone, but if you want only a phone, it's not your best bet. What's the biz with "keep your current phone"?

--bdj

[Ed Hansberry]

Ah yes, the market share talk. Haven't we had this conversation recently:

1) Treo's (solid sellers at this point) are smartphones and not included in the data (which also means Kyocera &amp; Samsung aren't either);
Ah yes, the bogus claim talk.

Since launch the Treo has shipped 93K units according to this press release (http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020717/tech_handspring_earns_5.html), but they have soldonly 40,000 to consumers. Now, that is since launch, not just in Q2. Now, if you look at the research here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2429) you would see that had they included it, it would have bumped Handspring from 6.5% share to almost 8.5% share if you use the full 40K number or 10.5% if you used the 93K number, but again, those are 5-6 month numbers, not 3 month like everything else in that chart.

And then they halted sales of the color models on July 24 and have not yet resumed. Now, if 40,000 units sold to consumers in the past 5-6 months is "solid sales" to you that is fine. What is ~40,000 units a week? That is what HP is doing. Or 65,000 a week. that is what Palm is doing.

[fundmgr90210]

Ah yes, the market share talk. Haven't we had this conversation recently:

1) Treo's (solid sellers at this point) are smartphones and not included in the data (which also means Kyocera &amp; Samsung aren't either);
Ah yes, the bogus claim talk.

Since launch the Treo has shipped 93K units according to this press release (http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020717/tech_handspring_earns_5.html), but they have soldonly 40,000 to consumers. Now, that is since launch, not just in Q2. Now, if you look at the research here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2429) you would see that had they included it, it would have bumped Handspring from 6.5% share to almost 8.5% share if you use the full 40K number or 10.5% if you used the 93K number, but again, those are 5-6 month numbers, not 3 month like everything else in that chart.

And then they halted sales of the color models on July 24 and have not yet resumed. Now, if 40,000 units sold to consumers in the past 5-6 months is "solid sales" to you that is fine. What is ~40,000 units a week? That is what HP is doing. Or 65,000 a week. that is what Palm is doing.

Bogus?? So then Palm OS via HS, Kyocera, and Samsung wouldn't pick up a few percentage points? That doesn't mean that PPC is under the 29% you've been spouting off? You mean, they might be closer to the 25% they've been at? This all with Palm OS 5.0 right around the corner? Ed, you got to teach me this new "non-bogus" math! You know, the one were Sony's numbers only KIND OF count? I think it could come in real valuable to anyone wanting to make outrageous claims.

[fundmgr90210]

2) "Basing the review on what this device is not???" This is the funny part: T-Mobile (a cell phone company no less) is marketing this as (drumroll....are you ready?)....a PHONE! Can't say I blame them as the OS it runs is called PPC 2002 PHONE EDITION!
I don't see this. If you go to either www.voicestream.com or www.t-mobile.com (the new version of their homepage) they go to great lengths to segregate the PPC Phone Ed and the Blackberry from the rest of their products in their online store.

T-Mobile is far from a cell phone company. They are a wireless provider. They are the ones now selling 802.11b access in Starbucks around the US, for example.

3) So to please you these reviewers should have gone out and told their readers "Pay more for this PDA (not a great one at that) with a half baked phone. But wait, you'll have to keep spending as you'll need to keep your current phone as well"?
Huh? I don't see Marlof's interpretation to be anywhere near this. It's a solid PDA with phone abilities. You can use it as a phone, but if you want only a phone, it's not your best bet. What's the biz with "keep your current phone"?

--bdj

The reviewers particularly don't look at this as a replacement for a cell phone. Marlof wants them to ignore that. That means the overwhelming majority of the potential customers for this thing would have to keep their current cell phone. It's not realistic and only speaks to the Geek market. Walt Mossberg even says that. But that still doesn't seem to be good enough for the sour grapes crowd here.

[st63z]

Coincidentally, didn't I read in another recent thread about how the bigger mainstream media have "special" relationships with manufacturers and get sent early product samples, but as a result they're usually just spouting off the product brochures and never actually posting negative opinions? :D

Didn't mean this as a dig to anyone, it just occurred to me just now...

FWIW, I can see both sides of the divide, it just depends on which worldview you want to adopt...

[st63z]

Am I the only one who thinks ZiffDavis is loosing touch with the tech and near tech crowd? After reading their reviews I have to wonder how far off base and simply wrong they are on other reviews. Newer media like MaximumPC and CPU (computer power user) seem to offer a more true tech savy approach. I hope this new generation of tech mags keep with their original vision and dont turn into the McDonalds of tech like ZDNet and the like.

--Bill

The ZD people actually do have true bonafide experts and technoheads among them, visit ExtremeTech and you'll see what I'm talking about. Those guys are old pros with an amazing wealth of knowledge. And just take any PCMag issue, a lot of those long-time product reviewers (whose names I've come to know) are usually spot-on (given the length constrictions of paper rags), and at least always knows the product and field they're reviewing. I find it funny that most of them never get the exposure that the mag columnists do :) A lot of them also seem to be husband-wife teams, coincidentally, weird...

Also, I've been a fan of MaximumPC back from their old boot days, and I believe the original German cpu has been on the scene for a long time too?

[Janak Parekh]

The reviewers particularly don't look at this as a replacement for a cell phone. Marlof wants them to ignore that.
No, IMO: he's asking them not to judge this on the merits of a cell-phone. Even though they don't look at the unit as such, they still criticize it for lacking features and aesthetics of a cell phone.

Of course, I really should let Marlof speak for himself :D

--bdj

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed, you got to teach me this new "non-bogus" math! You know, the one were Sony's numbers only KIND OF count? I think it could come in real valuable to anyone wanting to make outrageous claims.
What are you talking about? I said Sony was the only one in the Palm OS camp moving up in market share.

[marlof]

The reviewers particularly don't look at this as a replacement for a cell phone. Marlof wants them to ignore that. No, IMO: he's asking them not to judge this on the merits of a cell-phone. Even though they don't look at the unit as such, they still criticize it for lacking features and aesthetics of a cell phone.

Of course, I really should let Marlof speak for himself :D

--bdj

Thanks bdj! ;) I don't want the reviewers to ignore the aspects of in how much this could replace a cell phone as your daily phone, even for a heavy voice user. Heck, I could most certainly understand if they'd write: "If you're a heavy voice user, and are not a heavy PDA / data user, this Phone Edition might not be for you." I would fully agree, and that would be sound advice to some.

But it is a Pocket PC 2002 Phone Edition. It's a Pocket PC first, Phone second. It's a connected data device, and it should be reviewed with data connectivity first, phone options second, in mind.

If the reviewers then complain about the size (while for data I want a big screen, which leads to a bigger size), or the PDA OS for a phone (it's a Pocket PC first, for crying out loud!) they give me the feeling they compare this to a phone, and then say it's not a good phone. As Ed stated: that's like complaining about the amount of seats in a Porsche Boxter. The PPC2k2PE is not a phone first. It's about data first, phone second.

And factual errors can cause a negative feeling about a product that are not necessary. Walt says: "For e-mail, you have to dial into an Internet e-mail provider or corporate e-mail system. To surf the web, you first make a phone connection, then use the built-in browser." That is about the same as complaining that DSL isn't always on because you have to set it up on your desktop first, and then start your web browser or other program that needs a connection to the web. I think with his remarks Walt neglects the advantages of a GPRS always on connection for browsing the web, which is one of the great advantages of the Phone Edition. After I have connected over GPRS I can browse the web whenever I want, and after the initial connection I do not have to worry about any connections. And at the same time, my e-mail program checks for new messages every 5 minutes automatically, without the need of dialing up. He just speaks about the advanced speed of GPRS, but that is not all that GPRS is about. I think that is a factual error that is right at the heart of the interview, as "connected for data" is what this device is about.

Therefor I take it that they didn't look at this device for what it is. They look at this device for what they would personally want in a connected device. May be this is not for them, or for fundmgr90210, but if you give a so-called independent review of a product, you'd have to see if it would live up to the expectations of those who are in the market for this kind of product. If they'd do that, and they'd have another opinion than me, that's fine by me. But I just didn't get the feeling that they did that.

Of course, the Pocket PC 2002 Phone Edition is not perfect yet. To me, the perfect device isn't out there. So I don't mind if people criticize some aspects of the Phone Edition, in fact I like that. From criticism one learns, and hopefully it will lead to even better next editions. But when you see the arguments they make, it's not just that they complain about the feature set having the prospective buyer in mind, it's about the feature set having heavy phone users in mind. And that's why I agree with Ed that they didn't "get it". That is not a complaint about the conclusion, that is a complaint about the set up of the review. But I guess it's easier for some to assume that if we don't agree with the way a unit is reviewed, that is must be because we don't like the conclusion.

[topps]

FLAG ON THE PLAY!!!

Here is your yellow card for introducing facts into a subthread based on emotion. Please don't do that again.
:wink: :lol:

Nice way to lighten up the thread! I like it. :lol:

[topps]

This is a long post with some ranting thrown in for good measure... just wanted to warn those reading.

Ouch...yes, long...but thoughtful...



We see memory increases, processor speed increases, UI improvements, core OS changes, ease of use and other functional improvements taking place, screen improvements, chassis changes, and new feature implementations, but barely ever does anyone see any truly significant improvements to battery life or to the users ability to swap them in and out. Why not? And when I say significant changes, Im not talking about adding a measly thiry minutes to an hour of battery life. Im talking about really significant changes.

I understand that this thread deals with much, much more than this, but I am just so tired of never seeing any improvements in this area. Its one of the most neglected areas of handhelds and hybrids, and no one can be wrong for questioning it.

I view this as kinda like similar grumbling that computers never seem to get faster - what happened to all that hardware horsepower? Of course, as the hardware gets faster, the software becomes more complex (blamed as bloat code) but usability does slowly improve. e.g. my original WordPerfect 4.1 came on a 360k floppy and ran on a 6MHz 8086 with 256k RAM - it did 90% of what I use a wordprocessor for just fine...but would I go back to it? Of course not, because that other 10% has become more important, and being able to occasionally do complex actions, with copious online help has become important.

Same thing with battery life - battery capacity/charge density has increased hugely...but then we also ask more so the effective life has remained much the same. Look at the situation with laptop battery life - when they first came out, most had a usable life of 1-1.5hours and the press complained lots about this issue. As soon as it reached 3-4 hours, most of us were happy. This was achieved several years ago. However, since then battery capacity has continued to increase, as have power requirements. For most users, so long as they still get 3-4 hrs, they are happy. There are few who need 12-14 hour life, as reflected in part by the small number of laptops that do offer this.

I agree that we would all like to see more power longevity in such devices - the standard set by cell phones is going to influence expectations of the public for these more complex data devices...but I disagree that there has been no significant advance in battery capacity - it's all a trade off I guess.

[topps]

25% they've been at? This all with Palm OS 5.0 right around the corner? .

Hmmm, if you're expecting OS 5 to be the saviour, I'm afraid you'll be sorely disappointed. Yes, you are right in that there are users who are waiting for this, which is likely to produce a temporary lull in sales (usual pattern with impending tech update)...but, apart from a brief surge in sales that will likely occur when OS5 is onstream and these waiters jump in, I don't see it having much of a positive benefit on long term sales.

After all, OS5 really doesn't do much. Yes, it will bring about some new ARM based devices, but running software in emulation slows things down again so you won't have a device that is sigificantly faster (and how quickly do you want the Palm Home screen to pop up anyway?)

If it allowed developers to code to the new hardware, that would be wonderful and we would see a raft of new apps appear that take advantage of this new computing power, but Palm has made it clear that it is not releasing SDKs that will do this. Great for backwards compliance, so that all the legacy software still works...for lousy for advancing the platform.

If I understand correctly, native support for the ARM platform will not be available until OS 6, slated for Q3, 2003 - that's a lifetime (Palm's remaining lifetime?) in this industry.

[lovison]

For anyone that must carry a phone with them and relies on their PDA and hates to have a pocket/purse/holster full of clutter this device is life changing. My life is changed. :D

We are excited about the positive feedback we are getting for these devices from the corporate world already. In these days of technology doldrums this device is a bright and shinng star that is going to do nothing but improve and prosper.