Windows CE.NET 4.1 ships

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-947180.html?tag=fd_top">http://news.com.com/2100-1040-947180.html?tag=fd_top</a><br /><br />As we <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2486">told you yesterday</a>, there were some updates announced to the Windows CE.NET platform this morning. Some of these items will be familiar to you. <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2134">We told you about several items nearly a month ago</a>. They are actually calling this Windows CE.NET 4.1, so it isn't minor bug fixes. I am pretty sure this is the project formerly code named Jameson.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2002/20020730-windowsce.jpg" /><br />Here are the highlights:<br /><br />• Native document viewers for Microsoft Word, PowerPoint, Excel, Adobe Acrobat, GIF, BMP and JPG files<br />• IPv6<br />• Support for speech recognition<br />• Web browsing 15% faster than in CE.NET 4.0<br />• Windows Media Player is 20% faster than in CE.NET 4.0<br /><br />The updated OS is available and shipping now. Remember that Pocket PCs are based on the Windows CE 3.0 platform, the predecessor to Windows CE.NET. I don't know when a Pocket PC will be released with CE.NET underneath though, or if it will be CE.NET 4.0, 4.1 or Macallan, also known as CE 5.0. Macallan is supposed to ship in early 2003. Both CE.NET and Windows CE 3.0 have features not supported by the Pocket PC, so just because you see it in the list above doesn't mean your new iPAQ 5000 will support it, but we can hope! <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif" /> Thanks for all those that sent in the links to this and similar articles.

[alex_kac]

NEC also said it plans to use the operating system in a new wireless handheld.

[dochall]

If a new version of PPC were based on 4.1 how would that effect the Xscale issue?

[Jonathon Watkins]

OK - so - new devices - when & what specs and will existing PPCs be able to upgrade to this? Any idea of ROM footprint - 32Mb or larger?

[Dave Conger]

If a new version of PPC were based on 4.1 how would that effect the Xscale issue?

I am far from a platform expert, but I would think it would still have to be compiled for XScale (ARM v5 Architecture). If you compiled it for the old ARM architecture, you would still have the same general problems....

[Will T Smith]

If a new version of PPC were based on 4.1 how would that effect the Xscale issue?

I am far from a platform expert, but I would think it would still have to be compiled for XScale (ARM v5 Architecture). If you compiled it for the old ARM architecture, you would still have the same general problems....

You are correct, unless a platform is designed to be "forward compatible*" you would need a binary specific to your processor.

However, I don't think this will be an issue as the .NET architecture is processor independent. It's effectively Microsoft's version of Java. The .NET runtime is intended to run on a variety of processors, so you can. It follows that the underlying operating system would ALSO be available for multiple processors.


* To be "forward compatible" one would have to include legacy instructions alongside newer optimizations.

[Will T Smith]

Does the new CE.NET natively support Firewire connectivity?

[JMountford]

Sounds to me like CE.Net 4.1 and beyond is being geared to take advantage of Xscale type Arm Processors.

[Scott R]

I'm still confused.

With PPC 2002, PPC 2002 was supposedly the GUI and the apps in ROM, while CE 3.0 was the underlying OS. Now, with CE.NET, it sounds like CE.NET 4.1 is the underlying OS plus apps but without the GUI? I've never heard of such a thing.

Scott

[Jason Dunn]

I'm still confused. With PPC 2002, PPC 2002 was supposedly the GUI and the apps in ROM, while CE 3.0 was the underlying OS. Now, with CE.NET, it sounds like CE.NET 4.1 is the underlying OS plus apps but without the GUI? I've never heard of such a thing.

You're a Pocket PC Ponderer, and still confused? ;-) Think of it like this:

The Core OS team does whatever they want - they jam all sorts of things in there. They have all sorts of clients, from gas pump stations running CE to cow milkers to Pocket PCs. The Pocket PC team is just another client of theirs. The Pocket PC team takes the Core OS, rips it apart, then puts it back together again in their own special way with their own GUI, apps, etc.

[draiken]

Back on the old Days of my Nino and Jornada 430se, what you got on the device was the "Plain" Windows CE, it had a taskbar, with a clock on it, you got a Start Menu, exactly the same as in Windows 95

When MS got Win CE 3.0, they realized this layout wasn't the most aproppiate for a hand held device, so they got the really cool idea to redesign the GUI (Graphical User Interfase), and created Pocket PC

So all the "PocketPC" devices, "running on WinCE 3.0" are just that, a device, that has Windows CE 3.0 and has the Pocket PC user interfase on top of that

Meaning: you cannot take Windows CE.net and flash your iPaq with it...
you have to wait until MS, creates a new Pocket PC GUI for Windows CE.net (4.1)

(Just trying to make it clear for a couple of people who posted before me, sorry if this is redundant with other threads)

[JMountford]

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2002 2:46 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm still confused.

With PPC 2002, PPC 2002 was supposedly the GUI and the apps in ROM, while CE 3.0 was the underlying OS. Now, with CE.NET, it sounds like CE.NET 4.1 is the underlying OS plus apps but without the GUI? I've never heard of such a thing.

Scott

Think of it like this. Pocket PC is an "Uber App". It is that simple. Windows CE is an OS all in it's own. It can do all types of things, includinig (yes) support apps.

Now MS came along and went "this is good", but it lacks user friendlieness. So they put together an application that was very user friendly, an application that runs under the Windows CE OS. THe trick is that Pocket PC can run other applications. But it doesn't really run them at all. Kinda like accessing ASP's on a web page those Scripts and apps are being activated with a web page but still running where they are supposed to.

Does this make any sence?

[Ed Hansberry]

I'm still confused.

With PPC 2002, PPC 2002 was supposedly the GUI and the apps in ROM, while CE 3.0 was the underlying OS. Now, with CE.NET, it sounds like CE.NET 4.1 is the underlying OS plus apps but without the GUI? I've never heard of such a thing.

Scott
CE comes with its own UI - the Win95 style UI. Start button at the bottom, flyout menus, etc. That doesn't work well on a PDA formfactor device. So the Pocket PC team takes the CE OS and dumps the UI. They still rely on the CE core system for IR, file system, processing, drivers, etc. They also add their own apps, like Excel, Word and Reader.

This isn't accurate, but it will give you the gist of it - think of the Pocket PC UI as a skin for Windows CE, then throw in some bonus apps and you have a Pocket PC.

It is interesting that some of the ideas the Pocket PC team did have been worked backwards into CE. For example, CE 3.0 doesn't support tap-and-hold. Pocket PC group added that. CE.NET does support it. This means that the CE.NET based Pocket PC will dump the Pocket PC special tap-and-hold code and use what CE.NET ships with.

[Trade Wind]

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/jul02/07-30WirelessConferenceMA.asp

[possmann]

Now that this is out - anyone want to hazard a guess on when we'll see an update for the PPC platform?

Personally I'd like to take advantage of that speed increase in both Media Player and IE. I was also looking for more information about what else they did to PocketIE - specifically in regards to increasing the feature/function capablity to make it in line with the desktop version.

I would also assume that the new PPPC Platform (whenever that would be released) would be able to flash into the 32MG worth of ROM space. If recall, the current 2002 platform takes just over, what? - 18 MEG leaving a "good" size remaining for additional "OS expansion and Updates..."

[jdhill]

Based on past experience, I'd guess that we'll see PPC 2003/2004 in the first or second quarter of 2003.

[brntcrsp]

I seriously doubt it will be offered as an upgrade to existing devices. Those devices that are just coming out now may be given a chance to flash the ROM, but based on iPaq series upgrades I believe that they will be more likely to push for new devices rather than offer an upgrade.

Also those of us with the Jornada 56x series will probably not see an upgrade made available considering the extinction of the Jornada PPC line.

[jdhill]

I seriously doubt it will be offered as an upgrade to existing devices.
I think that they will offer ROM upgrades. Microsoft made such a big deal of requiring flash ROM in all Pocket PC 2002 devices that they will have a lot of very upset users if they don't allow the manufacturers to offer ROM upgrades.

[brntcrsp]

Microsoft made such a big deal of requiring flash ROM in all Pocket PC 2002 devices that they will have a lot of very upset users if they don't allow the manufacturers to offer ROM upgrades.

I think that was mainly a decision to provide the SP updates, not an ability to change the entire OS. But, these are only my thoughts. I would love to find out that I'm being pessimistic.

[Jonathon Watkins]

I hope you are wrong brntcrsp (weird name btw :o), but I fear you may be right - it would be in everyone's interests (apart from ours) if we were sold a new device with a new OS. :cry: More money for the manufacturers & MS. Built in obsolescence and all that. :roll:

[brntcrsp]

:edit for kindness:

[jdhill]

I think that was mainly a decision to provide the SP updates, not an ability to change the entire OS. But, these are only my thoughts. I would love to find out that I'm being pessimistic.
Unless they change other hardware requirements for Pocket PC 2003/2004, this should work the same as the iPaq ROM update that upgraded a 3100 or 3600 series device from Pocket PC 2000 to Pocket PC 2002.

[Jonathan1]

Unless they change other hardware requirements for Pocket PC 2003/2004, this should work the same as the iPaq ROM update that upgraded a 3100 or 3600 series device from Pocket PC 2000 to Pocket PC 2002.

Ya and we all know how good of an update that was.... :? In the history of MS they have never release an OS that stays even close in size to its predecessor. I highly doubt that 2003, or whatever they are going to end up calling it, will be able to fit in 32MB of ROM so then the OEM gets to play that oh so wonderful of game - What's in RAM? What's in ROM?

You'll forgive me if I am a bit jaded. I myself spent the $40 on the ROM upgrade just to find that it was missing some key items in the upgrade. I ended up saying the hell with it and jumped to the Jornada camp.

I'm now faced with the dilemma. Stick with my Jornada 568 for another 6-10 months or upgrade now and hope for the best.....JOY.

If nothing else its a pretty damn good bet the iPaq 3970 WILL be upgradable. For as much as MS bloats the OS (Not always a bad thing mind you.) I doubt that it'll eat the entire 48MB of ROM that is in that high end iPaq.

[JMountford]

I would not put it past the OEMs to put out a downsized upgrade. I am certain that Compaq/HP will offer an upgrade for the New iPaqs, other wise why put in 48 megs of ROM?

I just hope that this New Pocket OS will be worth the upgrade!!!

[johnm]

Viewers:

So I notice all these doc viewers that are now included with the OS. Does anyone know if MS developed these in house or if they worked with Westtek to bundle their ClearVue Suite?

[Ed Hansberry]

Viewers:

So I notice all these doc viewers that are now included with the OS. Does anyone know if MS developed these in house or if they worked with Westtek to bundle their ClearVue Suite?
Don't know, but MS has their own Win32 viewers for Windows desktops too. They may have taken those and worked down to a CE based app.

[Kathy_Harris]

My upgrade from PPC 2000 t0 2002 went flawless. I had no problems and enjoyed the upgrade. I hope that spirit continues with PPC 2003 or 4.1 or whatever it is called for the old 36xx and 38xx.

[abamara]

So what is the bottomline for us, the uneducated? If I buy a HP 928 wda now can I upgrade later as newer os comes out? Or are we better off waiting after the new OS comes out? :?

[Ed Hansberry]

So what is the bottomline for us, the uneducated? If I buy a HP 928 wda now can I upgrade later as newer os comes out? Or are we better off waiting after the new OS comes out? :?
Unknown. There are no guarantees that any PPC 2002 device will be upgradable to the next version. Given the success Compaq had with the iPAQ 3600's and the fact that MS has demanded large flash ROMs, it would seem insane for MS and OEM partners not to provide an upgrade, but we'll just have to see.

[Jonathon Watkins]

How large are we talking? Is the fact that high end IPAQs have 48Mb of flash ROM a straw in the wind? Or might 32Mb of flash ROM suffice.

The Manufactures and MS both want us to upgrade - so it is not in their interests to make this easy for us. On the other hand - we won't buy a unit we can't upgrade! :?