Olympus, Fuji announce new digital camera memory media [Archive]

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Jason Dunn

07-30-2002, 07:00 PM

<a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/30.media.php">http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0207/30.media.php</a> We've <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2330">talked about the xD format before</a>, and now it has become a reality. I kept hoping that Olympus and Fuji would switch to pure CF or SD instead of sticking with SmartMedia or their combo units, but it looks like they're gung-ho about the new xD format. If they can reach 8 gigs by 2003 I'll be stunned, but I suppose anything is possible. Did I mention I hate it when consumers get caught in the middle of memory standard wars? I'm staring at my "all in one" memory card reader and thinking "Ok, so when do I start shopping for a new one..." And for those who think I'm irrational about disliking new memory standards, I was recently the purchasing agent for a digital camera to be given to the youth pastor at <a href="http://www.countryhills.org">my church</a> (he's leaving for a church plant in Chicago) and what camera did I buy? A Sony and a 64 mb memory stick. Since he has no other devices to speak of, the quality of the camera and price point were more important than device interoperability. But on to the xD news... "Olympus and Fuji Photo Film Co., Ltd, of Japan today announced they've jointly developed the xD-Picture (as in "eXtreme digital") Card. The card is a new type of memory media with a compact design about the size of a postage stamp and has an image storage capacity of up to 8GB. The card offers compatibility with different digital camera brands and prices that are comparable to current SmartMedia cards. The xD-Picture Card will be produced on consignment by Toshiba Corp. in Japan and introduced in the Americas this fall along with digital cameras from Olympus and Fujifilm that support the media. With a Compact Flash adapter the xD-Picture Card can be used with any Compact Flash compatible device. A USB Reader/Writer provides computer connectivity, as does a PCMCIA PC Card adapter for laptops... ...Four types of cards will be available initially: 16MB, 32MB, 64MB, and 128MB. Due in December are 256MB cards, with 512MB, 1GB and 8GB versions planned for 2003." Source: <a href="http://www.webis.net">Alex Kac</a>

innersky

07-30-2002, 08:17 PM

Well, this means no Olympus or Fuji devices for me.
I can only hope if Canon ever decides to switch memory type, that they will choose SD over xD...

Paul P

07-30-2002, 08:43 PM

.............and what camera did I buy? A Sony and a 64 mb memory stick. Since he has no other devices to speak of, the quality of the camera and price point were more important than device interoperability.

TRAITOR!!!!

j/k

Kirk Stephens

07-30-2002, 08:48 PM

jdhill

07-30-2002, 09:37 PM

Just what we need: Another memory card format !!!

May it die a quick and painful death. :twisted:

Jonathon Watkins

07-30-2002, 09:40 PM

If that's the same as the S30 in the UK (3 Mpixels, 3x zoom, sound & video capable) then Yes - go for it. I have one and I love the shutter and aperture priority modes it has.

I would infinitely prefer camera makers to standardise on either CF or SD. We don't need any more so- specifications. If there is a quantum leap forward then sure, but we will get to 8Gb anyway with CF in the next while. We DON'T need another memory standard! :roll:

Will T Smith

07-30-2002, 09:57 PM

To a certain degree, i think that the memory standard war between various companies is healthy. It promotes innovation and improvement, however right now it seems like memory cards are all very similar except for form factor. Whatever happened to Dataplay? Their memory cards looked awesome.

A little off topic but about Digital Cameras...I am thinking about purchasing a digital camera. I want something that is very small and made out of metal. I am looking at the Canon S330 right now. Does anybody else have any suggestions or opinions? Thanks

In terms of competition, one does so with price and capacity. There is nothing inherint in this xD format that provides the consumer with any value.

The question of capacity is a question of density. One can achieve higher capacities with the other existing form factors. Especially with CompactFlash, which is an open standard.

This is not really technology, it's marketing. They are trying to sell cameras like HP sells printers. You buy their mechanism, now you must buy THEIR cartridges. Using CF or SD, they cannot exclusive rights to sell the "film".

In the end, I don't think this strategy will be successful. The market is already saturated with deployed alternatives. This xD format has ZERO technical advantages and no size advantages. The promoters are betting that the quality of their cameras will be enough to sway users into their proprietary pit.

Like SmartMedia before it, I believe that this xD format is doomed to failure. It will cause far more problems in the market place than it is worth.

Fed up

07-30-2002, 10:03 PM

I have an Olympu D3040 and love the pictures it takes. But that's it! :evil:

I'm tired of smart media cards and SD cards lying around like a bunch of tribbles. Now they want me to buy XD? They must be XD (extremely dumb :lol: ). My next camera will use a more common technology (hopefully CF).

Your loss Olympus.

Kre

07-30-2002, 11:32 PM

I have to agree with these posts. We do not need another card format. Why would Toshiba think we do? Like SD wasnt already doing the job? Stupid. And I liked the `Xtremely Dumb` moniker.

Both Smart Media, which nobody uses, and xD need to die.

Peseta

07-30-2002, 11:44 PM

I am looking at the Canon S330 right now. Does anybody else have any suggestions or opinions? Thanks

The S330 is the improved version of the S300 [or Digital Ixus 300]. I'm a happy owner of one of these since a little more than 1 year.
Hardly any flaws, and the 2 megapixel has always been enough untill now. I bought it because of the size and solid build.
I always carry it with me, on my belt in the official case of about € 30 in The Netherlands [~ $30, certainly worth its price], even in my professional life when I wear a suit. It's gone through a lot, but still works like a charm. It's however just too heavy to wear in a shirt- or jacketpocket at 275 gramms.
Pictures are almost always good, with as a weak point the flash range [issue with all ultra compact cameras]. In time I've been able to learn to work with the limited flash and limited settings to achieve nice results also in special conditions. One rule: just take a few extra pictures when in doubt of the result using diffrent white ballance, light correction or flash settings.

What I really like as a bonus is the waterproof case [30 meters under water] for about € 250, which I use on the beach, sailing and a friend of mine borrowed it for diving.

The S330 [or Digital Ixus 330] is about the same, with essentially some more setting available and a partly other button layout. So if you don't need the extra settings and find a S300 [or digital Ixus 300] for a significant lower price, don't hesitate to buy that one.

At http://www.megapixel.net/html/issueindex.html and http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ you can find great reviews of most available cameras [not always the same conclusion to keep it interesting, DPreview often a bit more strict on image quality].

Alternatives in my view:
- Only ultra compacts are small enough to allways take with you wherever you go, because there's nothing more frustrating than to need the camera and having left it at home.
- Always take a camera with at least 3x zoom
- CF-card [if you have a PocketPC] because of cheap memory and the ability to view and show your pictures directly with no or commonly available accessoiry [Ipaq, Toshiba e310, etc.] or optionally SD-card when owning a PPC 2002 device [more expensive]
- metall body preferably to be able to take a punch

This gives at this moment as ultra compact alternatives for the Canon:

- Minolta Dimage X: also 2 Megapixel, extremely compact and light [wearable in shirtpocket], picture quality a bit less [I might have bought it today if I hadn't owned my Canon yet]. SD-cards still expensive
- Pentax Optio 330 or 430. About the same weight and size of the Canon, but 3 resp. 4 Megapixels and a bit more pricy. If you often want to print large pictures this is useful, however with my 2 megapixels I get satisfactory results at near A4/Letter size.

Hope this helps with your decision.

One extra tip:
Buy at least one extra battery and a large memory card [>128 MB]. You'll need them.

st63z

07-31-2002, 01:23 AM

Eh, I also talked a bit about this in the above-linked previous thread: :)

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=18400#18400

Mark Johnson

07-31-2002, 01:38 AM

Whatever happened to Dataplay? Their memory cards looked awesome.

Dataplay was heavily backed (i.e., "Embraced and Subverted") by the recording industry. Bertelsmann (BMI) and EMI, etc. The license terms forbid any device manufacturer from using the media to playback non-secure format audio. The hardware could only and always playback "secure" audio formats, not mp3 or .wav, etc. There was nothing wrong with the technology, but the lawyers, licensing guys and threats and/or "advice" from the recording industry doomed the product.

Ditto for Memory Stick (although Sony obviously has the economic legs to keep it on life support for decades if they so choose.) The scenario is nearly identical: If you are a device manufacturer and you want a license from Sony to use Memory Stick in a portable "digital audio player" they will explicitly forbit you from making a mp3 player. You have to support the ATRAC-3 (proprietary secure Sony bizzare non-standard audio format) and NOT (under any circunstances) .mp3 playback. The interests of the Sony Music division controlled the development of the product from the Sony Electronics division.

Then they used their considerable weight to try to get the public to accept it anyway by putting it in cameras, vaio notebooks, clie/palm pilots, even desktops. It'll die like the Betamax died, like the MiniDisc is getting slaughtered by CD-R, and like FireWire will fade into the shadow of USB 2.0, but not before a lot of unsuspecting consumers get taken for a ride.

Paul P

07-31-2002, 03:01 AM

Then they used their considerable weight to try to get the public to accept it anyway by putting it in cameras, vaio notebooks, clie/palm pilots, even desktops. It'll die like the Betamax died, like the MiniDisc is getting slaughtered by CD-R, and like FireWire will fade into the shadow of USB 2.0, but not before a lot of unsuspecting consumers get taken for a ride.

The day memory stick format dies is the day all memory media formats die. The public has already accepted the memory stick format, as they have others. Considering Sony's market share in the products you mentioned, the format has already proven itself. Betamax is history, an unproven experiment in the company's 60 year plus history.

Minidisk came about at a time when mp3 players and memory cards were not as prevalent as they are today. At the time, it made more sense to buy a Minidisk player because minidisks provided more affordable storage(btw, Panasonic, Toshiba, and many others, pushed the Minidisk format quite aggressively as well). So I can't really say Minidisk was yet another scheme to 'lock-in' those unassuming, ignorant, and downright brainwashed consumers.

Anyways, I think XD will be a success, not a huge success but a moderate success. All it will take is a new, innovative product to go along with the new format. The formula is simple.

Paul P

07-31-2002, 03:20 AM

jdhill

07-31-2002, 03:51 AM

I just found this picture..........am I really wrong to be excited about something like this? Isn't this just cool?? Not sure why there so much negativity about something with a lot of potential. :)

It brings nothing to the table the the Secure Digital standard hasn't already. It's about the same size. It will have the same capacities. What exactly is the point of the new format?

Paul P

07-31-2002, 04:49 AM

Kre

07-31-2002, 12:54 PM

It brings nothing to the table the the Secure Digital standard hasn't already. It's about the same size. It will have the same capacities. What exactly is the point of the new format?

Dimensions (W x L x H)

XD: 20mm x 25mm x 1.7mm
SD: 24mm x 32mm x 2.1mm

I find that significant. For something that small, the change in dimensions is impressive, to say the least. The point of the new format is to make products that use it smaller. Lower power consumption and faster read/write speeds is another factor (at least that is what Fuji is claiming will happen with XD).

I dont know, call me skeptical about the benefits, but for starters, the size difference is hardly significant. The size difference between CF and SD or CF and xD might be considered somewhat significant, but the contrast between SD and xD is negligible to say the least.

You mention lower power consumption and faster read and write speeds... but compared to what? SD? I have to wonder if this is going to be negligible as well.

The problem with introducing yet another format into the industry, is that the significance behind the concept of `standards` just gets watered down or ignored. How are handheld manufacturers going to choose what slot they should integrate into their devices? SD or xD? Will they need to include both just to make sure everybody has the same thing? What if the handheld you want has an xD card slot but your digital cameras do not? Or your coworkers or family or friends have handhelds that dont possess this slot either? Regardless of what examples a person comes up with, introducing one more format makes data sharing and device interoperability more complicated and difficult. Or its yet one more card you have to carry around with you. Or one more pc card adaptor to carry around with you.

SD is just starting to really find its place in many devices. Digital cameras have it, handhelds have it, some mp3 players have it, some laptops have it, multi card readers have it, and so on. The industry is getting comfortable with SD. Although SD is not ubiquitous, so many devices out there have SD slots, that it makes data sharing between people and their devices easier. Maybe you dont share data in this way often or at all, but many people do. And from a professional standpoint, cross sharing between industries is especially important. With another standard floating out there, it just makes things more complicated, expensive, time consuming, and frustrating. Like introducing one more operating system. Could you imagine if we had as many OS`s as we do card formats, with equal market share? What a nightmare that would be! The more standards that are out there, the more people have to fiddle with. Thats the beauty of Windows being the worlds standard... you know that whatever you create on your computer, nearly everyone in the world with a computer is running the same OS and will be able to view and use what you created. Thats the kind of point Im trying to make with regard to why many find it important to only have a couple of card formats like CF and SD only. Data sharing becomes so much easier for many reasons.

If an OS, or in this case a card format, is more obscure like MMC or SM, then its not that big of a deal and it can largely be ignored because nobody is using it. But if it finds its way into a lot of different devices without really dominating the scene, then it becomes a monkey on the back of industry for the reasons I mentioned before... one more thing to fiddle with.

Nobody uses SM out there. You dont find it in hardly any device except for a couple of digital cameras and maybe one inkjet printer. Other than that, its virtually dead, like MMC. I cant help but wonder if xD is going to be a repeat of SM, except just a little smaller.

Besides, we have PC Card, CF1, CF2 which includes MD, SD, MMC, SM, MS, and now xD. Good grief. Enough already. :roll:

Kirk Stephens

07-31-2002, 02:36 PM

I am looking at the Canon S330 right now. Does anybody else have any suggestions or opinions? Thanks

The S330 [or Digital Ixus 330] is about the same, with essentially some more setting available and a partly other button layout. So if you don't need the extra settings and find a S300 [or digital Ixus 300] for a significant lower price, don't hesitate to buy that one.

At http://www.megapixel.net/html/issueindex.html and http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ you can find great reviews of most available cameras [not always the same conclusion to keep it interesting, DPreview often a bit more strict on image quality].

Hope this helps with your decision.

One extra tip:
Buy at least one extra battery and a large memory card [>128 MB]. You'll need them.

Thanks for the very comprehensive answer! I'll probably get either the S300 or 330.

Kirk Stephens

07-31-2002, 02:43 PM

To a certain degree, i think that the memory standard war between various companies is healthy. It promotes innovation and improvement, however right now it seems like memory cards are all very similar except for form factor. Whatever happened to Dataplay? Their memory cards looked awesome.

In terms of competition, one does so with price and capacity. There is nothing inherint in this xD format that provides the consumer with any value.

The question of capacity is a question of density. One can achieve higher capacities with the other existing form factors. Especially with CompactFlash, which is an open standard.

This is not really technology, it's marketing. They are trying to sell cameras like HP sells printers. You buy their mechanism, now you must buy THEIR cartridges. Using CF or SD, they cannot exclusive rights to sell the "film".

In the end, I don't think this strategy will be successful. The market is already saturated with deployed alternatives. This xD format has ZERO technical advantages and no size advantages. The promoters are betting that the quality of their cameras will be enough to sway users into their proprietary pit.

I know, I agree with you. My post stated that there were no big differences between the various formats.

Also, xD clearly has a size advantage. This format is tiny, even smaller than SD. But do we really need to go much smaller than SD? The only reason I could see why is if the receiving hardware would allow device manufacturers to make their products even smaller. Otherwise I just wish that the industry would focus on CF and SD and not change them unless they had something really mindblowing.

PJE

07-31-2002, 04:39 PM

Hi,

As far as the xD-Picture card goes, I don't currently see the need for it unless:

1. Cost - removing the controller from the card and placing it in the host device would reduce production costs for the card. Also there would be no SD licensing fees. I doubt xD cards will be much cheaper than SD cards.

2. Access speed. With digital cameras the speed at which data can be written to and read from the card is CRITICAL. If the new card allows data to be streamed to and from the card significantly faster than with SD then this would improve the customers experience with the camera.

My 2c

PJE

PJE

07-31-2002, 05:03 PM

The quoted transfer rates for the xD and SD busses are:

xD - 1.3MB/s for <64MB cards and 3MB/s for 64MB Cards
SD - 2.5/5/10MB/s depending on number of data lines used.

I'm not sure if SD can write data at the full 10MB/s, but I doubt xD will have any speed improvement over SD - and it will therefore need to be CHEAP.

I did notice they were qoting the short term availability of a CF to xD adapter.

-PJE

Jason Dunn

07-31-2002, 05:05 PM

Access speed. With digital cameras the speed at which data can be written to and read from the card is CRITICAL. If the new card allows data to be streamed to and from the card significantly faster than with SD then this would improve the customers experience with the camera.

I disagree that this is a factor. Current low-end CF cards can still keep up with consumer level cameras. It's only when you get into high-powered SLR cameras that having a fast CF card is needed, and you can buy fast CF cards now. xD offering faster write speeds wouldn't make a difference to most of the market.

Paul P

07-31-2002, 08:03 PM

The problem with introducing yet another format into the industry, is that the significance behind the concept of `standards` just gets watered down or ignored. How are handheld manufacturers going to choose what slot they should integrate into their devices? SD or xD? Will they need to include both just to make sure everybody has the same thing? What if the handheld you want has an xD card slot but your digital cameras do not? Or your coworkers or family or friends have handhelds that dont possess this slot either? Regardless of what examples a person comes up with, introducing one more format makes data sharing and device interoperability more complicated and difficult. Or its yet one more card you have to carry around with you. Or one more pc card adaptor to carry around with you.

SD is just starting to really find its place in many devices. Digital cameras have it, handhelds have it, some mp3 players have it, some laptops have it, multi card readers have it, and so on. The industry is getting comfortable with SD. Although SD is not ubiquitous, so many devices out there have SD slots, that it makes data sharing between people and their devices easier. Maybe you dont share data in this way often or at all, but many people do. And from a professional standpoint, cross sharing between industries is especially important. With another standard floating out there, it just makes things more complicated, expensive, time consuming, and frustrating. Like introducing one more operating system. Could you imagine if we had as many OS`s as we do card formats, with equal market share? What a nightmare that would be! The more standards that are out there, the more people have to fiddle with. Thats the beauty of Windows being the worlds standard... you know that whatever you create on your computer, nearly everyone in the world with a computer is running the same OS and will be able to view and use what you created. Thats the kind of point Im trying to make with regard to why many find it important to only have a couple of card formats like CF and SD only. Data sharing becomes so much easier for many reasons.

Besides, we have PC Card, CF1, CF2 which includes MD, SD, MMC, SM, MS, and now xD. Good grief. Enough already. :roll:

I think it's safe to say that SD, MS, and CF are the only standards we should be talking about right now. A PC Card is in a league of it's own, and for the time being, will be with us for a while. Also, I don't consider the CF format as having been concretely established just yet. CF is too bulky for a digital cameras. And we are still too early in the game to say with certainty what is proven and what is not. While CF is excellent for technologies that cannot be integrated into small SD format, CF is already being phased out for use in some digital cameras. Panasonic is one example of a manufacturer that seems to be turning to SD technology exclusively.

For me personnally and IMHO, I will not consider my recent purchase of a 128MB SD card for $43 (thx to the the people of PPCT :wink: ) a stumbling block in exploring new and more innovative products that use new formats and standards. It does make sharing devices more complicated, but clinging on to one format this early in the game is a little silly. If I have to carry SD, CF, and MS formats with me everyday, then that is the price I have to pay for wanting the best products that use these formats. If Toshiba or Fuji can show me that XD is superior to SD (claiming "The xD-Picture Card will have one of the fastest read/write speeds on the market"), then I think it's worth having another format.

Kre

08-01-2002, 08:37 AM

I think it's safe to say that SD, MS, and CF are the only standards we should be talking about right now. A PC Card is in a league of it's own, and for the time being, will be with us for a while. Also, I don't consider the CF format as having been concretely established just yet. CF is too bulky for a digital cameras. And we are still too early in the game to say with certainty what is proven and what is not. While CF is excellent for technologies that cannot be integrated into small SD format, CF is already being phased out for use in some digital cameras. Panasonic is one example of a manufacturer that seems to be turning to SD technology exclusively.

For me personnally and IMHO, I will not consider my recent purchase of a 128MB SD card for $43 (thx to the the people of PPCT :wink: ) a stumbling block in exploring new and more innovative products that use new formats and standards. It does make sharing devices more complicated, but clinging on to one format this early in the game is a little silly. If I have to carry SD, CF, and MS formats with me everyday, then that is the price I have to pay for wanting the best products that use these formats. If Toshiba or Fuji can show me that XD is superior to SD (claiming "The xD-Picture Card will have one of the fastest read/write speeds on the market"), then I think it's worth having another format.

The pc card certainly meets needs out there in the industry, but its no more in a league of its own than CF is. The pc card may offer the absolute highest capacity like in the case of Toshibas HDDs, but CF has matched the pc card in almost every way by finding its way into peripherals which prove that we dont absolutely need the pc card format in order to meet peoples needs in terms of portable expandability. The pc card is starting to feel outdated.

Although I believe CF should find its way into laptops and even more devices, its certainly the strongest format out there, perhaps apart from the pc card. CF has been with us for many years now, and virtually every type of device you can find in a card format can be found in CF flavor. CF is hardly bulky, and works great in my digital camera, among many. In the case of say, a very compact camera like the Minolta Dimage X, I believe that SD is more fitting, but CF is best for higher end prosumer and professional cameras by offering a compact format with the highest capacity available. Soon this may change if SD capacities reach their currently stated potential by bypassing CF in terms of capacity. But of course, there are write speed issues to consider here as well.

In the case of Panasonic, naturally they would choose SD over anything else for use in their devices considering the fact that its parent company, Matsu****a, developed SD technology in the first place.

As for SD being a stumbling block, I never said it was. Im all for SD. However, I did say adding xD to the mix I think will be a stumbling block for the industry as was SM.

I may have lumped Sony MS into the pile along with SM and xD. I dont understand why Sony doesnt do more with it, and based on what seems to be a lack of interest in developing it on Sonys part, I think it does the industry more harm overall than good. But because its found in so many of Sonys products, and Sony is so prevelant in society, although I didnt indicate this before, for this reason alone, I do think its reasonable to carry around or deal with MS in addition to CF and SD.

If xD is truly superior to SD, and from what Ive gathered so far, it isnt, but if it is, then they better push it real hard. Nothing is more annoying than having yet another choice in the mix that doesnt benefit society, but merely brings about more incompatibility and stupid format wars into industry and individuals lives, just so that one company can make a few bucks.

But each to his own.