At the other end of free

[Andy Sjostrom]

The last couple of weeks I have been thinking about the fee vs free issue. I know this issue has been discussed and debated over and over again here, but my thoughts does not involve the state Pocket PC Thoughts and whether or not this site's content should be 100% free. I leave that to Jason to ponder on. No, I have three other paths to this post.<br /><br />First, take a look at the following paragraph that I, very recently, ran across in a writing contract for a publication:<br />"4. Writer, for authoring said Work, shall receive no monetary compensation."<br /><br />This particular printed publication is not non-profit. The owners run the publication to make money and run their business, and still won't pay their writers. Being a professional writer myself, I turned down the "offer". I wonder why someone who tries to make a living writing would ever accept such a contract. I wonder if, perhaps, the publication does not want professional writers working for them. Is that then a wise foundation to build a professional publication upon? Strange.<br /><br />Second, I wonder if we are not living a self-fulfilled prophecy. In the "Mobile Internet" debate (no, I won't start another one now!) it is often argued that it is not possible to charge end users for content / services / products over the Internet, where as a carrier can solve that problem using a cell phone and the phone bill. In these days when almost everyone owns a credit card and gets electronic or paper bills from power companies, insurance companies, banks etc every month, why is it so hard to charge the customer? It is surprising that what we knew how to do "before" the Internet suddenly became unknown to us. The Internet has not short-circuited market economy. If you have what there is a real demand for, then there will be a price point right for what you have. What is missing to get going? (Don't say micro payments!)<br /><br />Third, where has the "free agent" movement gone? Remember the happy days when there was so much capital available with absolutely no ideas, and so many ideas with absolutetly no capital? People were talking like crazy about "free agents". Be your own. Meet your buyer and seller on the Internet. And all that. I searched around a little bit and found a couple of sites still alive: <a href="http://www.freeagent.com/Myhome.asp">FreeAgent.com</a> and <a href="http://www.elance.com/">Elance</a>. Do you know more such, almost historic, sites?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/money_01.jpg" />

[Robert Levy]

I've actually acquired several freelance Pocket PC software development contracts via http://www.rentacoder.com.

[PPCRules]

First, take a look at the following paragraph that I, very recently, ran across in a writing contract for a publication:
"4. Writer, for authoring said Work, shall receive no monetary compensation."

This particular printed publication is not non-profit. The owners run the publication to make money and run their business, and still won't pay their writers. Being a professional writer myself, I turned down the "offer". I wonder why someone who tries to make a living writing would ever accept such a contract. I wonder if, perhaps, the publication does not want professional writers working for them. Is that then a wise foundation to build a professional publication upon? Strange.
By "professional writer", I suppose you mean someone who seeks to make their money primarily by selling their writing. I would not say that content written by people who primarily earn their money by another means is unworthy of being published. They might be very able to write good content and that source of money may be secondary to them. If they know their subject area, it would be worthy content.

It comes down to what the market will bear. As long as there are willing writers who earn a living another way, and the writer values some non-monetary benefit, a publisher would not need to pay. If writers see no other value than the money, the publisher will need to begin paying. I do not think it strange.

To maybe push the point too far, I am contributing this material for free. I obviously see some value other than monetary to contribute my writing to "Thoughts", which in turn seeks to make a (perhaps meager) profit from the site.

[sesummers]

What is missing to get going? (Don't say micro payments!)

I think your answer IS micropayments. I think the prices for web content have to be a LOT lower than what the few pay sites I've seen have been asking. I'm not about to pay you $5 per month or even $20 per year to access PocketPCThoughts. If I had to do that for every site I visit fairly regularly, it would cost me thousands per year- it's not worth nearly that.

BUT, I'd be willing to pay you a cent or two each time I visit. That would pay you maybe $2 to $5 dollars per year. Not much, but multiply it by 10,000 people or more, and you could make a living off a reasonably popular web site.

The problem is, you can't charge me a penny or two- it costs a nickel or a dime just to pay for a SINGLE TRANSACTION on a credit card- plus a percentage of the charge. Those guys aren't interested in even the $2-$5 transaction you'd be able to charge me after a YEAR. But if there was a universal micropayment system, where my web browsing ended up costing me an extra $10-$15 per month added on to my ISP bill, and your 20,000 cents per day became say, $5900 (of the $6000 dollars) in your checking account at the end of the month, we'd both be pretty happy.

Bottom line- we NEED a micropayment system. Once we have one, the Internet will take off, and people will be willing to pay for content- as long as it's cheap.

[sundown]

I read your post kinda fast so maybe I missed you mentioning this but one reason why someone would contribute as a writer to a publication is to increase exposure for one's company or website. So while you may not be receiving direct compensation, you would possibly receive traffic and/or consulting business, etc. from someone who reads the article and therefore the publication might be thinking this benefit is enough compensation. I've been a speaker at several conventions and tradeshows and a contributoring author on a few websites over the years and haven't ever been compensated (I do have expenses covered when a speaking engagement isn't local). I've done these things because people want to learn something from me and if the information is good and my delivery is professional I end up being considered an expert. This has led to consulting work and profitable business alliances.

So I guess overall it depends on what position you're in. If you're already well exposed and making good money, you certainly could choose to pick only speaking engagements or article projects under paid contract. If you could use some more work or traffic or whatever, it might be a good idea to use an opportunity that doesn't have direct compensation to increase your exposure.

One final thought regarding the compensation issue, I'm not a professional writer or speaker by any means so I have never depended on writing or speaking to make a living. If you are a professional writer or speaker, I can see how you would feel otherwise. Writing and speaking are tools for me.

Before I close, I'd like to say that I would actually be willing to pay something for some of the services I use on the Internet which are currently free. For any free site looking to convert to a pay site, I'd suggest they consider "lite" and "members only" versions, the latter with more features for paying members. This way you don't lose the majority of members who are shocked at having to pay something and you make a few bucks for those who are willing and able to pay and find your information useful. I'd also suggest trying to keep the cost low. I visit maybe 10 sites regularly but if all of them started charging $10 a month I would be forced to pick only a few to visit since I would likely not be willing to pay $100 a month total. None of these sites are a "killer, must have", including Pocket PC Thoughts (sorry). I visit here everyday but it's a nice little extra to feed my PPC habit, not a necessity. I might be willing to pay something but not much. Think less about what you feel something should be worth and more about how much your customers think it would be worth.

Bill

[Jason Dunn]

Guys, please read Andy's post again: he's not talking about this site. Please don't turn this into a conversation about paying for Thoughts - that wasn't Andy's intention, nor do I want to see the conversation go in that direction - no one is asking you to pay anything for reading this site, so don't start throwing stones... :D

[Mike Wagstaff]

For me, micro-payments is only a part of a bigger picture. Making online payments as quick and easy and handing over cash is, I believe, vital. Whether it's something pyschological or just the fact that humans are plain lazy, it strikes me that most people would simply not visit a site rather than have to get their credit card dusted down.

I have a feeling that the key to making money on the web is keeping the content free. For me, the future lies in adverts. Not in the traditional sense, of course - advertisers don't pay well enough to enable a webmaster to make a good, honest living.

Rather, I see a future for sites whose "premium" (i.e. micro-paid-up) members, the hardcore enthusiasts, don't see any ads. Regular visitors, on the other hand, do. The trouble is, of course, that you've probably got to make the ads suitably annoying. Annoying enough to try and get people to fork out the readies, but not so annoying that they leave in a fit of pique never to return again.

[MonolithicDawgX]

Here is an interesting thought that I have come across. In Japan, the Coca-Cola Company and Japanese bottlers have created vending machines that can connect to web-based content via the phone system. This is based on the DoCoMo iMode and it is called cMode. The interesting thing is that you can go to a cMode Coke machine, which is already set-up to take cash or cashless payment for softdrinks, and pay for web-based services from providers that do not have a cash handling system and can't afford the fees from the banks for cashless. Now Coca-Cola can handle pre-paid and micro-payments and charge a small handling fee (they already have to handle the cash/cashless, so it is only variable expense added...pennies on the dollar).

Now Coca-Cola can only offer to be a collection point, not an enforcer/collector. And, true to phone systems here in the states, the content providers have to be partners with DoCoMo (Keiretsu discussion, anyone? :wink: ) so, it may be hard for all content providers.

This is still in its infancy. It would be really hard for Americans who a) don't have the phone system yet to handle banking as they cross from state to state, and b) are distrustful of most forms of cashless payments (even credit cards are only 55% of the US pop.). In micro-payment US cash is king. If Wal*Mart were smart, they would handle the cash transactions for web-based content providers. As much as I hate to go, everyone must go to Wal*Mart at least once a year. As you buy your Wal*Mart underwear, you could also pay for your web use.

By the way, wasn't Wal*Mart described in GO's 1984 as part of Big Brother?

[moehlert]

Micro-payments can get us close but we need to be careful what we wish for. Anyone else ever read Vernor Vinge's "True Names"? Anybody see the legislation introduced today in the US which would allow the music and movie companies to hack into P2P networks as long as they had a "reasonable" belief that copyrighted material was present?
Think about it..if you drop a penny in a jar at a store that is a micro-payment but is also anonymous...an e-cash system doesn't just have to include the same convenience as cash but the same privacy aspect as well.

OehlertPPC

[danmanmayer]

Micro Payments might not be feesable now, but i would say they wil be soon. I mean everyone keeps talking about the E-wallet. The day that actually happens would i have a problem dishing out 2 cents a story at every news site? Not really. I mean it might not be the best solution but it is a good option.

Also why shouldn't we be able to expect free stuff on the net. The information on the net is based off TONS of people searching for information. MANY alturistic people providing their information. The only reason there is paying is because companies highjacked all the good sites threw money everywhere and thought the consumer would pay money, when they really liked the internet in the first place becasue it was a place of free informational exchange. It was a alternative news source that didn't always have some corprate news. If i could find all the info i wanted on the web easily i would avoid most corprate sites. The thing is even on google now all you can find is the corprate sites. So now people post and put there free information on a company board or forum instead of on there own site or newsgroups. So should we pay companies for forcing us to gather at their sites? not really, if you want to be a writer you have to understand that with the internet there is alot of people willing to write for free. To make money you have to work harder or write in other mediums or offer quality above and beyond the free versions.

Sorry if this note came off harsh i didn't intend it to be. I guess i just htink everyone should try to share the resources (or people) on the web.

[David C]

What ever happen to favors, or merits?

I think the evil of a capitalist society is that everything depends on money. When things like money talks; no money, no honey and "Show me the money!" becomes the ultimate truth of our lives, it becomes the demise of our society.

There were once the days when people use to do favors for each other with out the thought whether if they'd get paid or not, partly because every one was so poor, and that it was easier to just return the favors then to give out money.

Well, here is an idea of how we can build a community where it’s fair to help even with out the exchange of money. Let's say we get creative, and combine the old favors system with the new ability of the computer age. Let's say we give people credits for the good deeds that they do for the community, like points for positive contribution.

Let's say we put this practice in use in the Pocket PC community. Here is a scenario of how it could work:

If some one is a knowledgably person, and he helps people, we give him credits. The person who got helped can owe him or her favors.

If some one who really cares about the community, and decides to make a free website, those who visit and enjoyed it should owe him favors too.

If some one has something useful to say, and he writes a good article about it to contribute to the web site, we should give him credits too.

Now comes end of the year, and there is this big convention where every one wants to go. But, the person who contributed to the community and traded up his own personal time to help does not have much money to use anymore and can't afford to go. Well, now we help him. Those people who owed the favors return it by doing something for the person that they are good at.

Let's say if you are a gambling person who has a lot of connection with the hotel and you've receive a favor in the past, you return it by offering free room.

Let's say you are living in the same town, or someone who works in the travel industry, and you want to return the favor, you offer a free ride.

If you are a product maker, developer, tinker or just some rich dude who has too much to keep, you give something away.

Lastly, if you don't have any of the above, the least you can do is buy the man a free meal or beer or something to return the favor.


Well, at least that's a poor man's opinion of how we can live happily and help each other with out the exchange of money.

[Kre]

...where my web browsing ended up costing me an extra $10-$15 per month added on to my ISP bill...

I wouldnt want my web browsing to cost me an extra $10-$15 per month.

[innersky]

For me, micro-payments is only a part of a bigger picture. Making online payments as quick and easy and handing over cash is, I believe, vital. Whether it's something pyschological or just the fact that humans are plain lazy, it strikes me that most people would simply not visit a site rather than have to get their credit card dusted down.

I have a feeling that the key to making money on the web is keeping the content free. For me, the future lies in adverts. Not in the traditional sense, of course - advertisers don't pay well enough to enable a webmaster to make a good, honest living.

Rather, I see a future for sites whose "premium" (i.e. micro-paid-up) members, the hardcore enthusiasts, don't see any ads. Regular visitors, on the other hand, do. The trouble is, of course, that you've probably got to make the ads suitably annoying. Annoying enough to try and get people to fork out the readies, but not so annoying that they leave in a fit of pique never to return again.

What you talk about here is exactly what shareware authors try to do.
And yes, this might work.

There's one thing that puzzles me. Is it so hard to implement micro payments? It should have existed by now...

[Andy Sjostrom]

I would like to clarify my point on writing for nothing. Yes, I too see situations when writing for nothing is quite ok. As PPCRules says, writing on this board does not generate money. It is sharing amongst friends and within a community I enjoy living in. I don't get paid to write for Pocket PC Thoughts, and yet I do it: because it is pure fun. Another important aspect to this is that I know no one else is getting rich on work I do. So, yes, I do things for free too!

My point with the publication is that the owners are looking to make a profit based on work I do and that I will have to work even more to see my own compensation realize. Writing and speaking does not generate much "leads". Now, that said: I will still continue to serve the Pocket PC community as I have done in the last couple of years without any other compensation than the pure enjoyment.

[JMountford]

To address the point or question that I beleive you are asking Andy.... Yes I think that a Professional should expect to get paid for doing work that is takin in a professional capacity, wether as an odd job contracted through a publisher or what not. I do not however think that that same individual should expect to get paid for doing the same work when they are not doing it in a professional capacity.

(And before I get reamed by Jason or someone, I realize that no one is saying they want to get paid for this site or some hobby work I am just making a complete point OK? :) )

Furthermore; I truly beleive that the internet is one confusing intity. You have sites that demand payment for their serves while that site does not pay their contributers whatsoever. Everyone, this is just wrong. You have the software design people who spend quite a bit of time coding on their own time, putting out a product and wanting paid for it.

Do they have a right to get paid as they did it on their own time? Hell yeah. DO they have the right to demand insane prices? Sure they do. Does it make any sence to want 30 dollars for a ten dollar app/. Sure it make sence to want as much money as you can get, but common sence must come in to play at some point.

I am cheap. My mother raised me that way. I grew up fairly poor. I am very careful where my money goes.

I have seen this micropayment debate once or twice in news circles. It will take a while to catch on especially in America as we a somewhat paranoid country, especially lately. A good micropayment system would have to be put into effect before payments could be asked.

I would think some kind of direct pay system through banks would be the very best way to do such a thing.

I honestly can not see me paying for intenet content. I have been on the net for around ten years. If news sites start charging for news that's when I start watching news on TV. Sure I lose a little conveince, but I save a little money.

I will only pay for services that are special or unique. Why would I pay for something that I can get anywhere?

To top it off I, like so many other technical specialists in America, am still unemployed. My money needs to be spent wisely.

I know I kind of strayted from my original thought a little bit, but I hope I addressed you question Andy.

[Jason Dunn]

There's one thing that puzzles me. Is it so hard to implement micro payments? It should have existed by now...

The biggest thing stopping a Micropayment system from existing is that no one is willing to take the financial risk to implement one. They risk they NEED to take is asking for only a fraction of the Micropayment, and hoping that they get so many they'll make money.

Here's an example: let's say that you wanted to pay Thoughts 2 cents when you came in the morning to read the news. If you sent me that money via PayPal, it would COST me 33 cents to take your 2 cents (I believe 35 cents is PayPal's lowest cut). Until PayPal decides to work strictly off of a % (say, 5% of a 2 cent payment = 0.25 cents), they won't be capable of a true Micropayment system. And no other company comes close to PayPal in terms of ever being able to truly execute on an ecash system.

[Jason Dunn]

I think the evil of a capitalist society is that everything depends on money. When things like money talks; no money, no honey and "Show me the money!" becomes the ultimate truth of our lives, it becomes the demise of our society. There were once the days when people use to do favors for each other with out the thought whether if they'd get paid or not, partly because every one was so poor, and that it was easier to just return the favors then to give out money.

Here's the way I look at it: if I'm going to volunteer my time, I'm going to do it for my church or local community helping others, not writing for a book/magazine/site that makes money directly off my work, yet doesn't pay me for that work.

It seems incomprehensible that there are companies out there who expect writers to write for free while they draw a salary for "coordinating". Why is my time or work worth less than theirs?

If you don't make your living writing, but use it as a vehicle to sell your other services, you can write for free - but it still requires sacrifice of time that you'd probably be spending with your family. If you're trying to pay your heating bills by writing for a living, asking to write for free is just an insult.

[Jimmy Dodd]

A point that I don't think anyone has mentioned (directly anyway) is that publishing makes for a great resume entry. Adding a publications section, even if it is in a rag, lends a certain professionalism in certain people's minds. Of course, this mainly applies to persons who make their living doing something related to what they are writing about, not the writing itself.

However, I do know several writers who do submit material free of charge until they get their career going. One of the best ways to get discovered as a writer is to write and get your stuff "out there." This is for both practice and exposure, much in the way beginning actors perform for free in "free theatre."

---
Bwana Jim

[Jason Dunn]

A point that I don't think anyone has mentioned (directly anyway) is that publishing makes for a great resume entry. Adding a publications section, even if it is in a rag, lends a certain professionalism in certain people's minds. Of course, this mainly applies to persons who make their living doing something related to what they are writing about, not the writing itself.

This is true, but at some point you evolve beyond that. I would define a professional writer as someone who gets paid to write. By extension, this means that the book/magazines who don't pay writers are full of amateur writers. You always get what you pay for in terms of quality content. Sure, you may find a diamond in the rough - someone who is just getting started but has great skill - but for the most part you'll end up with people whose work is only acceptable as long as it's free. :roll:

I suppose I'm just a little bitter over companies who have expected free content from me and then treat me like a paid employee - hassling phone calls every day, etc. My time is too valuable to donate to people like that. They simply aren't worth it.

[arutha]

The laws of supply and demand are not very kind to writers. One problem is that *everyone* thinks they can write. If you have steady hands, why not be a surgeon? If you have opinions, why not write about them? We all have opinions we'd like to share, but actually writing for a paycheck isn't easy for most people.

The problem with the various "talent market sites" (eLance, etc.) is that they're loaded with people who get contracts for a fair market price, then subcontract them out for lunch money. They get away with this because there are lots and lots of starving writers willing to do anything to get experience. Some of them are willing to work for a little more than nothing, othes nothing at all, and in the case of sites like eLance which charge fees, many of them are actually paying to work. You'll also find no shortage of writers who claim to have been ripped off.

There's nothing wrong with working for free when you're starting out--everyone has to pay their dues. Lots of professional writers started out that way. At some point, though, you'll need to really be aware of how much you're actually worth. Of course, if you're doing it just to support a community/cause/etc. and you're not being exploited economically, that's fine, too. In either case, you just have to figure out what you want out of it and why you're doing it.

If you do it, do it because you enjoy it.