The death of SmartMedia, the new XD card?

[Jason Dunn]

<a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/0207/02071501xdcardphotoim.asp">http://www.dpreview.com/news/0207/02071501xdcardphotoim.asp</a><br /><br />Just when you thought it was safe to buy a memory card...some insane company decides it's time to introduce a completely new memory "standard". I suppose it had to happen - we've had a few years of relative peace with most companies united behind CompactFlash. It would seem that Toshiba didn't feel like playing nice with Panasonic, and they've released their own competitor to Secure Digital cards. &lt;sigh> And, for the record, SmartMedia has been dead for a long time - it's just that no one has taken the time to throw some dirt on it.<br /><br />This is just my own somewhat informed opinion (I'm somewhat of a student of Japanese culture), but we're all the victims of a behaviour deeply rooted in traditional Japanese mentality. Japanese high tech firms are highly competitive, aligning only with others in their <i>keiretsu</i> (a group of partnered companies working towards a common goal, sharing from the strength of each member). To use the technology of another company outside your keiretsu is frowned upon, because it means admitting that they have something that you do not. This is part of the reason Sony created the memory stick - they have no keiretsu, but wanted instead to stand alone and not ally themselves with the technology of another company. Sony is so large, they practically are their <i>own</i> keiretsu. Instead of uniting behind a common standard, Japanese firms will, when possible, employ their own unique technologies in the never-ending game of one-upmanship. Ultimately it's the consumers that suffer through the confusion that results.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/xdrive.gif" /><br /><br />"The ever reliable (for leaks) website of the French printed magazine Chasseur d'Images is running a news article about the death of SmartMedia to be replaced by a new card called the XD Picture Card. According to their article this new card will be considerably smaller than SmartMedia, about the same size as an SD card and stiffer. They say that the card will be available in capacities of 128, 256, 512 MB and up to 1 GB with 4 and 8 GB a possibility. The card appears to be manufactured by Toshiba and doesn't contain a controller chip (just like SmartMedia)." Source: Paul P<br /><br />And if I'm horribly incorrect in my analysis of this aspect of Japanese culture, someone please feel free to set me straight.

[MobiliT]

I like standards. In fact, I hate it when you purchase a new PDA and have to repurchase every accessory because the connectors are proprietary down to the model. :(

But to the real point, how small is too small?? I'm already scared to death of losing SD cards. I mean SD cards can drop and land on the ground without hardly making a noise! And this new format is considerably smaller... geez.

**Just reread the article, not considerably smaller than SD, rather SmartMedia. But still.**

[mar2k]

Great, Toshiba Pocket PCs with XD slots. Already my 6-in-1 Flash adapter is obsolete.

[seeker]

Your review of Japanese business culture is very interesting and insightful.

Thanks. :)

[Paragon]

I guess this would make Microsoft the "Big Kahuna" of keiretsus. Keiretsu.NET so to speak :)

The keiretsu concept is a geart one. It takes a very open mind to realize that working with your peers in the marketplace can make for a larger marketplace for you to have a peice of. Opposed to having a larger peice of a smaller one.

I have been saying for a while that I would like to see a standard method of expansion in PPCs instead of the proprietary solutions we see now. Think how much better the industry would be if PPC developers could find a bit more "keiretsu"

Dave

[danmanmayer]

So i have been looking at the really awesome pocket pc phones. Not a single one of them has compact flash. Now it doesn't even look like i should get one with SD memory (which i hate) So i have to get this new memory. This is a waste of time and effort. Most digital cameras still use compact flash and it has the mircodrive and very large sizes of standard memory. Why should i start all over and pay a couple hundred more when i have a perfectly good microdrive. I want a pocket pc phone with compact flash, do i really have any chance of that happening?

The companies are screwing us all, can't they just make a open standard no one owns the media and they can all build it.

[Paragon]

Why should i start all over and pay a couple hundred more when i have a perfectly good microdrive. .

Well no one says you have to, but if we didn't start over once in a while there would be no room in our livingrooms because our computers would be taking up the whole room. 8O :)

Dave

[jeffmckean]

I pretty much gave in to SD, so now I'm just careful to make everything I buy either SD or CF compatible. I agree with Jason, SmartMedia has been dead for a long time (the roadmap ended at 128mb, for gosh sakes) but I just can't believe that we need a another new standard. But again, here the business culture takes over. What's a little weird here is that in their latest notebooks, Toshiba has started to include SD slots. (?)

What really got me onto the SD bandwagon was buying a Minolta DiMAGE X. I love that camera (ya, I know the image quality isn't perfect) because it is so FAST and tiny. Now that I've come over, I don't really have any regrets...besides being fearful of losing a card!

[Marcel_Proust]

Absolute Madness. Somebody stop all this innovation.

[Ed Hansberry]

Absolute Madness. Somebody stop all this innovation.
Not innovation. Greed. :bad-words:

[JonnoB]

The problem with SD is that there are royalties associated to its use. I am sure that Toshiba (and others) are not just about making a competitive solution, but about getting out from under the royalties they are obligated to. If they can get even partial success with a new format without a royalty obligation, it just adds to the bottom line.

[Steven Cedrone]

Why should i start all over and pay a couple hundred more when i have a perfectly good microdrive.

My first digital camera was Smartmedia. The thing cost me a fortune (AGFA), and now I don't even bother with it. It has been replaced with a Canon PowerShot S110. So here's the next question: how long before we write about the death of Compact Flash.

Talk about planned obsolescence..........

[Kre]

...But to the real point, how small is too small?? I'm already scared to death of losing SD cards. I mean SD cards can drop and land on the ground without hardly making a noise!...

Like Ive said many times before, Sony should just come out with a memory pin and get the size wars over with.

[Don't Panic!]

{snip] So here's the next question: how long before we write about the death of Compact Flash.

Talk about planned obsolescence..........Probably around the time they roll out the Death of Floppy Disk articles again. :wink:

Don't Panic!
Bobby

[st63z]

SmartMedia seems to be a dead technology (I never touched it myself), but why is it that Olympus, and Fuji (and Kodak?) seem so darn stubborn in continuing to use it, what's up with that :evil:

Also, I wondered what the manufacturing cost benefits are for this XD (being controllerless like SM)? Anyone know what flash gating tech it uses? And is it a free "open" standard or will it be Toshiba's version of Matsu****a's SD and Sony's MS?

Anyways, it's out on the horizon so I'm not particularly worried about it myself (I assume the SD momentum picking up steam from the big companies today won't disappear anytime soon?). In fact, I wonder what makes Toshiba think it can make XD fly (Sony has a bigger consumer electronics market share, and they have had a considerable time-to-market advantage, whereas Toshiba doesn't seem to have any advantages). And as noted from their laptops (and PPCs), I thought Toshiba was a strong proponent of SD?

BTW, I love my Dimage X, too :) I've had to reformat my flash cards recently to bigger cluster sizes, though, 'cuz my X had too much write lag time when using the smallest cluster size. See this thread for a discussion of slow SD write performance:
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=341745#post341745

EDIT: Now I've got the gadget envy again, this time about the Kyocera (i.e. Yashica) Finecam S4 (note that this is different from the Konica KD-400Z). The Finecam S4 at 3.4" x 2.2" x 1.2" @ 5.9oz for an SD-based 4MP with 3x optical zoom, vs. the Dimage X at 3.3" x 2.8" x 0.8" @ 4.8oz for 2MP with 3x optical zoom.

To put it another way, the S4 is basically the size of the Canon S100/110/200, but with 4MP (instead of 2MP) and 3x optical (instead of 2x). A Cnet review said it had avg. picture quality and good but not very advanced manual controls (more the point-n-shoot type), but it got better verdicts from a couple of photo magazine reviews that I read. Unlike the Dimage X, the S4 has macro focus down to 3.5" distance (important to me), but it has no audio recording and only 15sec silent AVI capture (as opposed to 35sec MOV capture on the X). The S4 also has greater shutter speed range (from capturing faster motion to shooting very low light).

(way to stay on topic, st63z)

[Bob Anderson]

Just add my voice to the list of people sick and tired of having new format after new format rolled out. I finally have accepted the fact that SD cards are going to be around... even if they are so damn tiny you could lose them without even knowing about it!

I agree with Jason, smart media was dead along time ago... in fact, I thought it was dead from the beginning when compared to compact flash.

The only thing I can do from this point forward is to vote with my $'s. If it isn't CF or SD I won't buy it. Period. I hope some other intelligent tech buyers do the same thing... then maybe these companies will tire of creating new standards that nobody ever wants (Hmmmm... VHS vs BetaMax? :o )

[bjornkeizers]

Probably around the time they roll out the Death of Floppy Disk articles again. :wink:


How right you are. Those little ******* don't know when to call it quits. I mean, here we are: 256 mb compact flash, 512 mb flash, 1 gb flash, frigging 4-8 gig cards... And we *still* use these large, frail, small [in terms of storage space] disks. Why not give every new desktop and laptop a CF slot instead of a 1.4 mb disk drive?

If it were up to me, i'd elevate CF to new standard. Out with the old, in with the less old & much better!

[fundmgr90210]

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0207/02071501xdcardphotoim.asp

This is just my own somewhat informed opinion (I'm somewhat of a student of Japanese culture), but we're all the victims of a behaviour deeply rooted in traditional Japanese mentality. Japanese high tech firms are highly competitive, aligning only with others in their keiretsu (a group of partnered companies working towards a common goal, sharing from the strength of each member). To use the technology of another company outside your keiretsu is frowned upon, because it means admitting that they have something that you do not. This is part of the reason Sony created the memory stick - they have no keiretsu, but wanted instead to stand alone and not ally themselves with the technology of another company. Sony is so large, they practically are their own keiretsu. Instead of uniting behind a common standard, Japanese firms will, when possible, employ their own unique technologies in the never-ending game of one-upmanship. Ultimately it's the consumers that suffer through the confusion that results.

Sony must feel horrible then about making PC's with windows installed and handhelds with Palm OS installed.

I like the idea of delving into culture, tradition, history, etc to explain certain current trends; however, I think they created (and have more or less stuck to) memory stick because it's part of their proprietary strategy to own your living room, car, vacation, etc. For instance, I'm waiting to buy a DVD player until one comes out that has a memory stick slot (ironically, one actually one just came out from Samsung).

Obviously, a huge part of Sony's strategy is to make its stuff work together very well (operably as well as stylistically), and I think the memory stick is just another aspect of that. Some tech heads love the idea of this (like me), but most don't even know what they're getting into at first. They start out with a memory stick camera for instance. When they later go to buy a notebook computer, they're all the more like to get a VAIO because it has a memory stick slot. They don't even know what CF, SD, SM, MMC, etc even are (nor do they care).

All that said, I agree however, who needs yet another "standard"?

[Paul P]

I agree that uniform standards make more sense and advantage consumers, but at the same time I like companies that step outside their boundaries and create something new. It seems that previously established standards stifle innovation, where companies innovate along previously established conventions, instead of creating new ones.

Paul

[Steven Cedrone]

Probably around the time they roll out the Death of Floppy Disk articles again. :wink:


How right you are. Those little ****ers don't know when to call it quits.

Not to take this too far off topic:

Does anyone here use floppy disks? Between my DiskOnKey and my CF card reader, I'll never bother with floppies again.....

Steve

[Sslixtis]

I'm happy to see a new standard, good old fashion competition! What would the prices look like if everyone decided that SD was "good enough" and it had no competition? Everyone just licensed SD. How often would new sizes come out? I think they would cost a fortune and not have alot of size choice if that were the case. And lets face it I love my CF slot but maybe the time has come to move on. If you can get the same memory, etc... in a fraction of the size you can shrink the overall form factor of the PPC. Which almost everyone complains is too big! Or better yet, put something else in, in the space saved :lol:

[Sslixtis]

Does anyone here use floppy disks? Between my DiskOnKey and my CF card reader, I'll never bother with floppies again.....

Steve

What's a "floppy disk"?????

:wink:

[Jason Dunn]

Your review of Japanese business culture is very interesting and insightful. Thanks. :)

You're welcome - hopefully it was at least partially right. ;-) If you're looking for a book to help you understand the Japanese business mind, SONY: THE PRIVATE LIFE is a superb book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0618126945/jasonsego) (affiliate link) - I learned a lot from it.

[Jason Dunn]

Why should i start all over and pay a couple hundred more when i have a perfectly good microdrive. I want a pocket pc phone with compact flash, do i really have any chance of that happening?

I'm not that fond of new standards either, unless they represent an evolutionary leap forward - the size difference from CF to SD/MMC is such a leap, and eliminating that much size will make for smaller and lighter products. That's a good thing in the long run.

[Jason Dunn]

SmartMedia seems to be a dead technology (I never touched it myself), but why is it that Olympus, and Fuji (and Kodak?) seem so darn stubborn in continuing to use it, what's up with that

Good question - I've contacted Olympus and Fuji and stated that I'll never buy their products so long as they use SmartMedia. Fuji actually responded and thanked me for my opinion. Whee. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

Sony must feel horrible then about making PC's with windows installed and handhelds with Palm OS installed.

There are logical limits to this - if it's something they feel they can do that is within their realm of technology, they'll likely try it. But they won't, for instance, invent a new type of alloy for a product case or design an OS from scratch.

If you have an alternate analysis to this, I'm interested in hearing it.

[JonnoB]

Does anyone here use floppy disks? Between my DiskOnKey and my CF card reader, I'll never bother with floppies again.....

Steve

With a few exceptions, you can't boot off of a CF card reader.

[JonnoB]

There are logical limits to this - if it's something they feel they can do that is within their realm of technology, they'll likely try it. But they won't, for instance, invent a new type of alloy for a product case or design an OS from scratch.

If you have an alternate analysis to this, I'm interested in hearing it.

Here is a little peek into some of their 'pride' of independant innovation vs business needs. Fujitsu and NEC for years bundled software (OEM license) on their personal computers that my company made. They also internally developed a competitive solution. For years, they could not keep up with our innovation, so they continued to bundle our software. Until the Asian crisis, most Japanese businesses did not want to 'lose face' with a layoff, so they kept this redundant software team who made software that never got used. The picture has changed and they now are more willing to reduce staff size. The Japanese are very proud and want to create everything, but if it makes business sense to partner they will. See Sony PCs with Windows, but PDA with PalmOS. If Sony could make a viable OS alternative to Windows on the desktop, they would drop Windows tomorrow.

Apply that to everyone who uses SD today. If Toshiba can make XD fly, say goodbye to SD on Toshiba devices.

[Steven Cedrone]

Does anyone here use floppy disks? Between my DiskOnKey and my CF card reader, I'll never bother with floppies again.....

Steve

With a few exceptions, you can't boot off of a CF card reader.

Agreed, but it can be done....

And as far as the DiskOnKey goes: (from the web site)
Can the DiskOnKey be used as a bootdisk?
Yes. Some BIOS versions currently support the DiskOnKey as a bootable device. Two well known O/S's are from Compaq and IBM (Phoenix BIOS). There may be others that support the DiskOnKey as a bootable device. It is recommended to contact your BIOS vendor to check for capability.

Steve

[Paul P]

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0207/02071501xdcardphotoim.asp

Obviously, a huge part of Sony's strategy is to make its stuff work together very well (operably as well as stylistically), and I think the memory stick is just another aspect of that. Some tech heads love the idea of this (like me), but most don't even know what they're getting into at first. They start out with a memory stick camera for instance. When they later go to buy a notebook computer, they're all the more like to get a VAIO because it has a memory stick slot. They don't even know what CF, SD, SM, MMC, etc even are (nor do they care).


I personally prefer Sony notebooks, but the memory stick is not the reason I purchased it. Any knowledgeable user will do his or her diligence before purchasing a notebook. It will be more convenient to have the memory stick slot if you have other Sony products, but purchasing a memory stick adapter for a non-Sony notebook is not a problem.

Also, Panasonic is pushing SD quite aggresively (as they should be). I believe selected Panasonic notebooks have a built-in SD slot, but Toshiba, Compaq, or any other manufacturer using SD format do not provide that option (I may be wrong about Toshiba). For now - whether it is memory stick, SD or CF - a sophisticated user will base his or her decision on the quality and value of the notebook, not whether it has memory stick slot.

[Paul P]

Your review of Japanese business culture is very interesting and insightful. Thanks. :)

You're welcome - hopefully it was at least partially right. ;-) If you're looking for a book to help you understand the Japanese business mind, SONY: THE PRIVATE LIFE is a superb book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0618126945/jasonsego) (affiliate link) - I learned a lot from it.

BTW, Jason, thanks for the recommendation. I purchased the book recently after you mentioned it in one of your updates. It's excellent so far.

[fundmgr90210]

I personally prefer Sony notebooks, but the memory stick is not the reason I purchased it. Any knowledgeable user will do his or her diligence before purchasing a notebook. It will be more convenient to have the memory stick slot if you have other Sony products, but purchasing a memory stick adapter for a non-Sony notebook is not a problem.

Also, Panasonic is pushing SD quite aggresively (as they should be). I believe selected Panasonic notebooks have a built-in SD slot, but Toshiba, Compaq, or any other manufacturer using SD format do not provide that option (I may be wrong about Toshiba). For now - whether it is memory stick, SD or CF - a sophisticated user will base his or her decision on the quality and value of the notebook, not whether it has memory stick slot.

I think you need to read my post again. I said "all the MORE likely". Not everyone is as knowledeable or maybe cares as much as yourself to look into what is the best option. As notebooks have become more and more of a commodity, they've obviously started to became more and more uniform in terms of their features, looks, etc. Some consumers (more than you probably think) may only be buying a computer to email their baby photos to Grandma via AOL. They have a Sony camera already so this makes it an easy decision for them (again, since many of the features on competing models are already relatively identical in terms of processors, memory, HD capacity, etc.). They don't even know that you can simply get an MS adapter. Never assume that everyone knows what you know.

[fundmgr90210]

There are logical limits to this - if it's something they feel they can do that is within their realm of technology, they'll likely try it. But they won't, for instance, invent a new type of alloy for a product case or design an OS from scratch.

If you have an alternate analysis to this, I'm interested in hearing it.

Obviously....My point was that you used memory stick to illustrate the Japanese need to create a standard for themselves. They obviously did create a new standard, but I don't think primarily for that reason. Rather, they did it for the same reason that all companies create proprietary formats: $$$.

[st63z]

This is an interesting topic, maybe I should read that book, too :) We've all heard of the Japanese corporate culture mentality, but is it actually STILL deeply entrenched in the biggest of today's multinational electronic/technology corporations/conglomerations? Well, I guess maybe the old guard who may still occupy the very top executive levels, but I would've thought with greater globalization, all such companies would need to adopt a different mindset to stay competitive. In fact, I remember reading several articles from Business Week about how multinational companies like Sony and even Toyota operate much differently now than, say, Japan's steel industry or whatnot. They're even hiring non-Japanese executives to head some of the foreign subsidiaries outside Japan :)

So it could maybe be valid that Sony's proprietary moves are motivated more by $$$ concerns just like Western companies?

EDIT: Man, what's going on with WorldCom???

[Jason Dunn]

Obviously....My point was that you used memory stick to illustrate the Japanese need to create a standard for themselves. They obviously did create a new standard, but I don't think primarily for that reason. Rather, they did it for the same reason that all companies create proprietary formats: $$$.

With all due respect, if you believe that, I don't believe you understand the Japanese business culture. I'd really encourage you to check out that Sony book - you'd be surprised how many of the Sony decisions were based on emotion instead of profit. Why did they buy a movie studio? Because Morita always wanted to own one, not because it was a wise business decision that would make them money.

The Japanese culture is deeply rooted in their sense of family, honour, and history - it's not a simple matter of money like the North American way of doing things.

[Jason Dunn]

This is an interesting topic, maybe I should read that book, too :) We've all heard of the Japanese corporate culture mentality, but is it actually STILL deeply entrenched in the biggest of today's multinational electronic/technology corporations/conglomerations?

In the case of Sony, it has been largely "Americanized" in the past few years - but the majority of Japanese companies are still run in a more traditional fashion (at least from my limited experience).

[Paul P]

I think you need to read my post again. I said "all the MORE likely". Not everyone is as knowledeable or maybe cares as much as yourself to look into what is the best option. As notebooks have become more and more of a commodity, they've obviously started to became more and more uniform in terms of their features, looks, etc. Some consumers (more than you probably think) may only be buying a computer to email their baby photos to Grandma via AOL. They have a Sony camera already so this makes it an easy decision for them (again, since many of the features on competing models are already relatively identical in terms of processors, memory, HD capacity, etc.). They don't even know that you can simply get an MS adapter. Never assume that everyone knows what you know.

I think you misread my post as well. You said "some tech heads love the idea of this (like me), but most don't even know what they're getting into at first." Maybe your definition of a tech head fits your average Grandma, but not mine.

To suggest that I assume everyone knows what I know is silly. I never implied that. But I did use the word 'sophisticated.' And even by that term, I didn't mean to exlude most of the buyers. A sophisticated buyer knows the major differences between notebooks, and is capable of making a notebook that best fits his or her needs. We are talking about spending anywhere from $1,800 - $4,000 on a nice notebook. I think spending and investing that much money for an average consumer involves doing a little research one way or another.

If someone is looking to purchase a notebook for their work, they are more likely than not are concerned about the reliability and dependability factors. In that case, a little research and perhaps a short conversation with a salesperson will result in a ThinkPad purchase. Is it that much of a stretch to think that an average consumer might actually ponder whether or not he or she can continue using memory stick with their non-Sony notebook?

I think your assumptions undermine the savvy of most notebook buyers.

[fundmgr90210]

Obviously....My point was that you used memory stick to illustrate the Japanese need to create a standard for themselves. They obviously did create a new standard, but I don't think primarily for that reason. Rather, they did it for the same reason that all companies create proprietary formats: $$$.

With all due respect, if you believe that, I don't believe you understand the Japanese business culture. I'd really encourage you to check out that Sony book - you'd be surprised how many of the Sony decisions were based on emotion instead of profit. Why did they buy a movie studio? Because Morita always wanted to own one, not because it was a wise business decision that would make them money.

The Japanese culture is deeply rooted in their sense of family, honour, and history - it's not a simple matter of money like the North American way of doing things.

Again, the assumption is a pretty loaded one. You're talking about one author's view of the motivations of Japanese business and using it as the rule to be applied to every decision made by a Japanese corporation.

There were other factors in the studio purchase you mentioned: the price that movie studios were going for in '89; exchange rates, etc. It also shouldn't be discounted that many of the decisions made by Japanese companies often come from American divisions that are much more autonomous than you'd at first think (particularly when purchasing U.S. based assets). I'm not saying that the culture spoken of in the book you mention doesn't exist on some level, but I can assure it doesn't take precedence over the need to make a profit.

The Japanese don't have the market cornered on over paying based on sex appeal, emotion, and ego (Coca-Cola's purchase of a movie studio is an oft used B-school case study of "needing" to get into the Hollywood game and getting taken to the cleaners).

No, I haven't read the book (but plan to as it sounds interesting); however, while getting my MBA I did get a somewhat decent exposure to the ways of international business, the history of mergers and acquisitions, etc. I'm sorry, but that one book isn't the last word on Japanese business practices.

[fundmgr90210]

I think you misread my post as well. You said "some tech heads love the idea of this (like me), but most don't even know what they're getting into at first." Maybe your definition of a tech head fits your average Grandma, but not mine.

I think your assumptions undermine the savvy of most notebook buyers.

No, we here would be the "tech heads" (I happen to be one that likes Sony's strategy of interoperability between it's products). My Grandma on the other is just like yours. Neither one of them are techies.

[Paul P]

I think you misread my post as well. You said "some tech heads love the idea of this (like me), but most don't even know what they're getting into at first." Maybe your definition of a tech head fits your average Grandma, but not mine.

I think your assumptions undermine the savvy of most notebook buyers.

No, we here would be the "tech heads" (I happen to be one that likes Sony's strategy of interoperability between it's products). My Grandma on the other is just like yours. Neither one of them are techies.

Yeah, I just didn't think that particular example applies to the majority of buyers. You said "tech heads" at first, and then used that other example. Probably repeating myself, but I believe that 'more likely than not' the memory stick is not going the deciding factor for a sophisticated/knowledgeable consumer.

[Ed Hansberry]

Does anyone here use floppy disks? Between my DiskOnKey and my CF card reader, I'll never bother with floppies again.....

Steve

With a few exceptions, you can't boot off of a CF card reader.
My Cisco router boots off of an 8MB CF card.

[xdev]

I think sd should be the most viable format right now. It is perfect for super slim devices like the m505, e310 and most mobile phones, mp3 players and so on...
now if only they could work on getting the price right;)

[Will T Smith]

So i have been looking at the really awesome pocket pc phones. Not a single one of them has compact flash. Now it doesn't even look like i should get one with SD memory (which i hate) So i have to get this new memory. This is a waste of time and effort. Most digital cameras still use compact flash and it has the mircodrive and very large sizes of standard memory. Why should i start all over and pay a couple hundred more when i have a perfectly good microdrive. I want a pocket pc phone with compact flash, do i really have any chance of that happening?

The companies are screwing us all, can't they just make a open standard no one owns the media and they can all build it.

You can buy CF->SD adapters that will allow you to use your SD/MMC memory in any CF1 compliant device. Check out http://www.pretec.com

[Will T Smith]

[quote=fundmgr90210]http://www.dpreview.com/news/0207/02071501xdcardphotoim.asp

Also, Panasonic is pushing SD quite aggresively (as they should be). I believe selected Panasonic notebooks have a built-in SD slot, but Toshiba, Compaq, or any other manufacturer using SD format do not provide that option (I may be wrong about Toshiba). For now - whether it is memory stick, SD or CF - a sophisticated user will base his or her decision on the quality and value of the notebook, not whether it has memory stick slot.


I am very surprised that notebook vendors do not put CF2 slots alongside their PC-Card slots. Some do offer memory slots (Sony and Toshiba notably), however these commit you to a certain technology. A CF slot would allow a user to use ANY small format memory card with the appropriate adapter or a multi-adapter. In addition it would allow for the use of CF-IO peripherals WITHOUT taking a PCMCIA slot with adapter.

CF is really the evolution of the PC-Card. It has all the capabilities of the traditional PCMCIA format in a smaller form factor. With the increased emergence of PocketPC CF card solutions like wireless adapters, I would not at all be surprised that notebook vendors would take advantage of this to provide easy expandability without consuming the valuable and very limited PC-Card slots.

CF will be here for a VERY long time since it can host ALL of these other formats. In fact, I dare say that it will eventually replace PC-Cards in sub-notebooks and tablets.

As far as this XD format goes ... It's Dead on Arrival. It serves no new need as the market is already saturated with alternatives.

Furthermore the "no controller" concept failed the first time. It severly limited the shelf life of their host products as they could not properly scale with increasing bandwidth. As one bought higher capacity CF media, one invariably benefited from the latest memory controllers. SmartMedia was stuck in the slow lane. It was a shame as there were some very COOL Olympus cameras out their hobbled by their SmartMedia Film.

[Will T Smith]

Sony's memory stick is a good example of proprietary standards done correctly :-)

I speak from the consumer's point of view. The consumer doesn't want a product that will limit him or hem him in. I was initially skeptical of Sony's Memory stick with comparison to Compact Flash (3 years ago, I had already writte off SmartMedia).

Sony changed my mind because they aggresively deployed Memory Stick across their entire product offerings: Notebooks, Camera's, Computers, PDA's, Audio players, Voice Recorders. Printers, Camcorders, PlayStation? They made it a viable tool for many applications. The price of the readers and the memory have now settled into a competitive level with Compact Flash.

Most companies could not do this because they cannot offer this complete product line. Sony can, they did, they were successful.

I'd also like to point out that they our now licensing Memory Stick extensively and ASUS will soon offer a PocketPC with Memory Stick expansion.

Sony did it right.

[Mark Johnson]

I'll go out on a limb a propose a theory. This is TOTAL speculation on my part:

Matsu****a/Panasonic owns the core patents on SD and somewhere behind the scenes there is wind that they are thinking about rasing the license fee to the manufacturers using it. Toshiba wants to hold the fee (or maybe lower it) so they they allow a leak of a mockup of a product that may or may not even exist. The pictures don't represent a product or an announcement, they are just a threat and no one, not even Toshiba, reallys wants to extend the life of SmartMedia or undermine SecureDigital. They just want good terms on SD.

I'm NOT saying this IS the case. I'm not even saying I think this is the case, I just think it could be.

[st63z]

Sony's memory stick is a good example of proprietary standards done correctly :-)


Just wondering, but among all those things Sony did right, it seems they have been quite a bit slower to ramp MS capacity compared to Matsu****a and its partners (even though Sony has had a lot more time), why is that? Is the technology itself harder to ramp up, or Sony decided not to expend the manufacturing R&D resources (difficult to believe as they seem very committed to MS)? I'm I'm not mistaken, a 256MB isn't even available yet. In fact, with the new MS Duo (more similar in size to SD), it's only at 16MB I believe...

[st63z]

I am very surprised that notebook vendors do not put CF2 slots alongside their PC-Card slots. Some do offer memory slots (Sony and Toshiba notably), however these commit you to a certain technology. A CF slot would allow a user to use ANY small format memory card with the appropriate adapter or a multi-adapter. In addition it would allow for the use of CF-IO peripherals WITHOUT taking a PCMCIA slot with adapter.

CF is really the evolution of the PC-Card. It has all the capabilities of the traditional PCMCIA format in a smaller form factor. With the increased emergence of PocketPC CF card solutions like wireless adapters, I would not at all be surprised that notebook vendors would take advantage of this to provide easy expandability without consuming the valuable and very limited PC-Card slots.

CF will be here for a VERY long time since it can host ALL of these other formats. In fact, I dare say that it will eventually replace PC-Cards in sub-notebooks and tablets.


I believe some of the IBM X series notebooks offer 1 PC Card and 1 CFII slot? Anyways, with mainstream midsize and fullsize notebooks, I think most companies probably consider 2 PC Card slots to be more than enough expansion (given that a PC Card is a superset of CF and thus all its capabilities you mentioned), especially as more and more things are already built-in (WiFi, BT, 1394, USB 2.0, faxmodem, 10/100BT, etc), and only a select minority even needs to use PC Cards (maybe SCSI or 802.11a or TV/video codec or whatnot). Also don't forget that today's PC Card slots also support 32-bit PCI-bus CardBus, necessary for the higher-speed devices that I just mentioned.

That leaves memory cards, and since most people probably won't use more than one of the PC Card slots for an I/O device (many probably won't even use any), there is slot(s) available for memory...?