Goodbye to Hulking PCs - say hello to the miniPC revolution

[Jason Dunn]

http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/02q3/020710/index.html

This is a topic I'm quite passionate about, so stay with me here for a minute. Look at the photo below:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/shuttle.jpg

Except for the freaky head-thing, doesn't that rig just fill your heart with warmth? Just imagine - your PC up on your desk without it being the dominant item. And imagine it being nearly silent. I'm getting weak in the knees...

When I first saw the Shuttle last year, I was excited but immediately dismissed it because it was using an SiS graphics chip. SiS? Why would I want a SiSsy GPU like that? It turns out that the chip isn't all THAT bad, but Shuttle will offer a version with an AGP slot. Even better than that (in terms of a performance/cost ratio), nVidia has announced (http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=IO_20020715_4238) that Shuttle will be using their new nForce2 integrated GPU which includes support for a whole whack of killer technologies (USB 2.0, Dolby 5.1 sound, TV encoder) and some decent graphics power (GeForce 4 MX). The Shuttle units themselves use a special "heat pipe" that dissipates heat in a very unique manner. The net result? A very quiet PC (oh how I wish my wind tunnel of a PC was quiet!).

Mini-PCs like this aren't for everyone - there are some limitations (only one full external drive bay), but the form factor, tightly integrated technologies, and quiet running are very compelling. I agree wholeheartedly with the article linked above when they say that the mini-PC could be a nice shot in the arm for the whole computer industry. It represents something truly "new" that the industry hasn't seen in a while. I've seen other "micro" PCs in the past, but Shuttle seems to have hit the sweet spot of technology and design.<!>

Here's the conclusion from the article (make sure you check out the whole article):

"For the first time, we received a compact mini-PC that is convincing on nearly all fronts. The barebones system SS40 from Shuttle is factory-equipped with a cool looking aluminum case that houses a Flex-ATX motherboard and a capable power supply, as well as a heat pipe system for cooling the CPU. Considering its small dimensions (the PC takes up less than a third of the volume of standard PCs), the features that it offers are quite persuasive. All of the important components, such as graphics, sound, network and FireWire (IEEE1394), are integrated on the motherboard. So, what's the point in buying yet another big, bulky beast of a PC tower when you can have something more compact and erganomic? Compared to the bargain-basement PCs, the Shuttle system reveals good workmanship and high-quality materials. For the majority of users, a PC configuration like the one we used in this test is enough to take on all the necessary tasks.

The only limitations are with 3D games: here, the graphics are a bit too weak. However, the manufacturer plans to come out with a version complete with AGP slot soon. Together with an AMD Athlon XP 1900+ and 512 MB DDR266 (CL2), the mini-system attained high performance levels. The key to the Shuttle system is the integrated heat pipe for the CPU: the rotation speed of the finely-tuned fan is dependent on the CPU temperature.. In practice, the computer works very quietly - which is not to be taken lightly when a heat generator like the AMD Athlon is in use. If you prefer Intel CPUs, there will also be a version for the Pentium 4, to come out shortly."

[michael]

I've been considering one of these for a while. Now that I have an XBox I play very few games on me PC - actually I only play one game - CivIII so I don't need super graphics, but equally I don't want SIS graphics. When these come with nForce2 boards I'll be very tempted to get at least one for home and turn my attractive but noisy Lian-Li case into a server i can hide away somewhere.

Then I'll need to find a flat panel display that can do 1600 x 1200 without having to pay a bajillion dollars for it!

[innersky]

it looks like that failed cube from Apple...

On the other hand, you can make any standard pc silent with the right components. I did it with mine.

[JonnoB]

The only limitations are with 3D games: here, the graphics are a bit too weak. However, the manufacturer plans to come out with a version complete with AGP slot soon.

This is a huge limitation right now... but once there is an AGP slotted version or one with an integrated GForce4 GPU, it may be just what I am looking for.

[Foo Fighter]

Ack! Where's the style?

I'm all for putting PCs on a diet, but lets put a little thought and creativity into PC design as well. This system looks like someone sawed an old beige box in half. :roll:

[mstie423]

Looks like these have the P4 now.. according to their site (www.shuttle.com). TigerDirect.com also has the P4 listed. These sound great though, especially the price. Now if only they get AGP..........

[sesummers]

I'm in total agreement. Big, bulky, noisy PCs stink. I used to have a case that was only slightly wider than a BabyAT motherboard (about 9"), and maybe 6" high, but it was over 18" deep. I had a handle on it and carried it back and forth between home and work. But the ATX board layout killed that option.

What I'd like to see are PCs the size and shape (and noise levels) of DVD players. I want one that my LCD display can sit on, that's no more than maybe 10" deep and 17" wide, and 3-4" high.

[Dave Conger]

Hopefully the would be doing something inside that thing to cut down on cables running everywhere, cause those things would be trouble to support.

[Foo Fighter]

I suspect these are all reasons why Notebook PCs are outselling desktops. Small, sleek, stylish, quiet, portable...and POWERFUL.

[JonnoB]

I suspect these are all reasons why Notebook PCs are outselling desktops. Small, sleek, stylish, quiet, portable...and POWERFUL.

I love my notebook.... but darn it, I still have to have a desktop PC because I can't get a decent notebook with GPU to run the current games!

[ThomasC22]

I don’t see much to this. I agree that PC Manufacturers need be looking at smaller PCs, but there are a few important points where this misses the boat.

1 – Style, the thing is ugly. It looks like my UPS and I certainly wouldn’t put my UPS on my Desktop.
2 – Thickness, I don’t really think people want small as much as they want thin. Look at the Apple Cube (although in all fairness price had a lot to do with its death too).
3 – Ports, ok, maybe all these points go with style but still…you should hide the ports under something or put them to the side.

OK, well, I had a lot of other points but now that I think them through they all boil down to style. This thing doesn’t have any. ‘Nuff said.

[rlobrecht]

What I'd like to see are PCs the size and shape (and noise levels) of DVD players. I want one that my LCD display can sit on, that's no more than maybe 10" deep and 17" wide, and 3-4" high.

Take a look at the mini-ITX machines currently shipping. http://www.caseoutlet.com/NWPc/CS-135/default.htm or http://www.caseoutlet.com/NWPc/2677/itx2677.html for example. They're approximately 11 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 10 3/4" and run with 1 or zero fans. The first example can run a P3, but the second one runes a low power C3, and a power supply similar to a laptops. Only 55W!

[MellowYellow]

There's another miniPC setup that has one AGP and one PCI slot... I believe it's called the "gBox".

http://www.american-media.com/Products/PC_Servers/CF-S868.html

The style is a bit better than the shuttle as well, and it's got integrated everything. Pretty pricey though, IIRC.

[dochall]

Well as nobody has mentioned it - style, space and the inablity to upgrade - by an Imac.

Personally I will stick with my hulking server box which sits on the floor and keeps a family of four provided with heat. :P

[Sslixtis]

I'm with you dochall! I want the ability to rip open the side of my baby and give her the latest components available! As far as noise goes, well turn up the speaker volume and drown it out :wink:

[Kre]

Although I like the idea of a mini pc, I love pc modding too much. The ability to go out and buy a really nice Lian Li case, install funky windows in the sides, water cooling components, LCDs, round cables, cold cathodes or LEDs, and everything else is just too much fun to give up. The only way Id ever purchase a mini would be if the ability to mod it in some of these ways was possible. A Lian Li case is a big case, but you have so much room to let your creative ideas run free. A mini for me really limits this, but you never know, maybe it might spawn new modding techniques designed especially for the smaller box. :)

[Venturello]

You know what this is really missing? One of those new logitech wireless (thru radio, hide the receiver away) optical mouse/keyboard combos. That way it would look really cool.... my question Jason and all the people is, why have the pc on the desktop, a small and limited one, when you could have a complete one underneath your desk, away from view, where you can have all the add-ons (AGP, PCI, drives) you want, and is updateable? The noise? You can build a silent PC using passive cooling, noiseless fans and insulating drive-cages. They even sell special power supplies if you mind changing the fan of yours to a quiet one. Many online places show you how to build an almost totally silent pc, and where to get the parts. Fans do most, and hard disk second. After that, you got a pleasurable silent pc.

Of course, for cool factor, presentations, LAN games or the kitchen, this one is VERY good.

Just my 2c as usual!

[Jason Dunn]

Ack! Where's the style?

In the eye of the beholder apparently - I like the way this looks:

http://www.shuttleonline.com/Images/ProductImage/ss40.jpg

I don't know what your computer looks like Foo, but I'm digging the retro Shuttle style...

[Jason Dunn]

I suspect these are all reasons why Notebook PCs are outselling desktops. Small, sleek, stylish, quiet, portable...and POWERFUL.

You forgot brutally expensive, and no notebook is as powerful as a desktop - even with the latest GPUs from nVidia and ATI, they still suck for gaming. Throughput from memory and hard drives are still quite limited - I agree notebooks are all of the above except powerful, unless you want to shell out $5000 for one. :roll:

[Will T Smith]

Well as nobody has mentioned it - style, space and the inablity to upgrade - by an Imac.

Personally I will stick with my hulking server box which sits on the floor and keeps a family of four provided with heat. :P

Who say's you can't upgrade. You can swap out the Motherboard and the AGP version will allow you to sidestep the integrated graphics.

The drive bays is enough to service a DVD-RW and a Multi-Flash drive. That's all one needs in a PC today.

PC drag-racers will still want big cases with noisy cooling systems. These are the geek versions of souped up, mini-wheeled Honda Civics with neon glow lights adorning the undercarriage. Those of us who actually do work on our computers instead of just playing games welcome the advent of appliance level PC's that are simple, effective and all you really needed anyway.

BTW, with Firewire and USB 2 onboard there is no class of peripheral that one cannot update offboard. With the advent of more mobile oriented computer techonolgy, these will be MORE important than extra bays.

[Jason Dunn]

On the other hand, you can make any standard pc silent with the right components. I did it with mine.

But can you make your huge tower small with the right components? No. Noise level is only part of what I find appealing about this. I'm just sick of these honkin' towers we have - PC makers don't put enough effort into the DESIGN of their products.

I'm amazed at how hard some of you guys are on things like this - can't you see why some, like myself, would find this appealing? Even if it's not something that meets YOUR needs, can't you see why some would? 8O

[Will T Smith]

I suspect these are all reasons why Notebook PCs are outselling desktops. Small, sleek, stylish, quiet, portable...and POWERFUL.

You forgot brutally expensive, and no notebook is as powerful as a desktop - even with the latest GPUs from nVidia and ATI, they still suck for gaming. Throughput from memory and hard drives are still quite limited - I agree notebooks are all of the above except powerful, unless you want to shell out $5000 for one. :roll:

The definition of power is an ever moving target.

This years notebook outclasses last year's PC. What kind of power to you NEED.

Yes, notebooks do not yet contain pixel shader equipment. However, minus games, they are as capable as any other piece of equipment. It really depends on WHAT you do with them. Honestly, if gaming is your major use, you'd be better served by Playstation or X-Box.

[Jason Dunn]

...my question Jason and all the people is, why have the pc on the desktop, a small and limited one, when you could have a complete one underneath your desk, away from view, where you can have all the add-ons (AGP, PCI, drives) you want, and is updateable?

Because it's still big and ugly sitting on the floor. :wink: My PC *is* sitting on my floor right now, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have it up in front of me, lookin' all sweet with those easy to access ports. :D

[Jason Dunn]

Yes, notebooks do not yet contain pixel shader equipment. However, minus games, they are as capable as any other piece of equipment. It really depends on WHAT you do with them. Honestly, if gaming is your major use, you'd be better served by Playstation or X-Box.

Don't get me wrong, I like notebooks, but they're not "desktop replacements" for everyone. In addition to the very real limitations of not being able to upgrade them much beyond RAM and hard drives, I don't think a notebook would make a good video editing device for instance (despite what Apple propaganda would tell you).

Notebooks are great computers for 90% of the people out there, but I couldn't have ONLY a notebook for my computer.

[Will T Smith]

I'm with you dochall! I want the ability to rip open the side of my baby and give her the latest components available! As far as noise goes, well turn up the speaker volume and drown it out :wink:

BTW, at $400 the latest GPUs match the price of this entire box. At these prices, instead of upgrading components, why not upgrade the entire shell in one fell swoop. Move the Drive, RAM, put in a new processor, and your ready to go.

[Foo Fighter]

I don't know what your computer looks like Foo, but I'm digging the retro Shuttle style...

My PC is a Dell Dimesion 8100. Not a bad lookin box, but the damn this is as big as a server and louder than a 777 during take-off. It gets even louder when playing games, as the variable speed fan compensates for the extra load placed on the system.

I also own a flat-panel iMac, which is so quiet you can barely hear it running. And as Fat Bastard would say..."It's dead sexy!" :P

[Foo Fighter]

...but they're not "desktop replacements" for everyone.

The only crippling aspect to notebooks, when used as a desktop replacement, is the vidoe can not be upgraded so you're stuck with outdated hardware. And hard drives are slow speed (4200 RPM)...as apposed to 7200 RPM on a desktop.

Of course, once you get into "desktop replacement" class notebooks, you lose portability. I recently looked at two new high-end Sony Vaio models and they were monsters. 8O

[Sslixtis]

That $400 GPU was one of the items I was talking about! I know there are plenty of options out there that make it possible to do everything outside the box as it were, but don't you have the same "size" issues? They're just spread out! Maybe it's just me but, I want my PC to be a mini server for all my wireless gear, I really just don't care what it looks like, with dual monitors 21" & 19", Scanner, Printer, PPC, and Speakers, I just don't have the real estate on my desktop for a "pretty" case. That litte cubby with that nice little door seems to be the perfect place for my PC Case :lol:

[Steven Cedrone]

Here's another mini.....

Cappuccino CG-1 Mini-PC (http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/computing/59ef.shtml)

and it's bigger brother:

Cappuccino TX-3 Mini PC (http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/computing/5a98.shtml)

Cool and stylish!!! :turn-l:

Steve

[Take1]

This kind of micro system is VERY popular in Japan due to space limitations in the home and office (yes, it's THAT cramped over there).

I, like others here, have a 'big box' tower which permits easy access so you can upgrade easily with off-the-shelf components very easily. You get more bang for the buck with towers and the cases they are coming out with now are far from the typical mid-90's beige box that's been associated with PCs.

[Janak Parekh]

And hard drives are slow speed (4200 RPM)...as apposed to 7200 RPM on a desktop.
This is absolutely the killer for me. 4200RPM hard drives are slow as molasses, esp. with WinXP. I think IBM has just released some 5400RPM notebook drives, and if so, that would be great (although I assume their power requirements are higher).

Of course, once you get into "desktop replacement" class notebooks, you lose portability. I recently looked at two new high-end Sony Vaio models and they were monsters. 8O
You have to admit their screens are sweeet, though. 16"! :multi:

--bdj

[st63z]

So when is the P4 SS51 or the nForce2 version of SS40 coming out, exactly? Late summer/early fall? I need to get one soon for someone. I just hope Shuttle's heat dissipation methods will be enough to make the Athlon XP unit run quietly enough.

So many options, the Shuttle type, the slim desktop type (kinda like a mini rackmount), the type like the Cappuccino at ThinkGeek, not to mention laptops :) I'm also eagerly awaiting OQO (I hope they'll be able to also use 20GB), I can't wait to see what desktop/laptop docking stations they come out with.

So what's a good combo DVD/CD-RW drive? I've used Ricoh's 12x DVD + 20x10x40 CD-RW, but I think there's a 16x DVD + 32x10x40 CD-RW now (I wish it's also slot-loading like my Pioneer DVD-ROM drives, though). But my old Ricoh was $200+, so it might be worth it to just move up to DVD+RW altogether...

[st63z]

And hard drives are slow speed (4200 RPM)...as apposed to 7200 RPM on a desktop.
This is absolutely the killer for me. 4200RPM hard drives are slow as molasses, esp. with WinXP. I think IBM has just released some 5400RPM notebook drives, and if so, that would be great (although I assume their power requirements are higher).

Wouldn't it be great if WD (or someone) makes 2.5" HDDs with, like 8MB cache :)

[dochall]

Well as nobody has mentioned it - style, space and the inablity to upgrade - by an Imac.

Personally I will stick with my hulking server box which sits on the floor and keeps a family of four provided with heat. :P

Who say's you can't upgrade. You can swap out the Motherboard and the AGP version will allow you to sidestep the integrated graphics.

The drive bays is enough to service a DVD-RW and a Multi-Flash drive. That's all one needs in a PC today.

PC drag-racers will still want big cases with noisy cooling systems. These are the geek versions of souped up, mini-wheeled Honda Civics with neon glow lights adorning the undercarriage. Those of us who actually do work on our computers instead of just playing games welcome the advent of appliance level PC's that are simple, effective and all you really needed anyway.

BTW, with Firewire and USB 2 onboard there is no class of peripheral that one cannot update offboard. With the advent of more mobile oriented computer techonolgy, these will be MORE important than extra bays.

You are of course dead right. I could get my dual CPU ultra SCSI RAID HD system in that box and that would make everthing wonderful.

Oh and of course my games playing is vastly enhanced by my dual CPU system. Hmmm...not really. Wonder why I have it then. Maybe I do something that you don't work wise on a PC. :roll:

[innersky]

On the other hand, you can make any standard pc silent with the right components. I did it with mine.

But can you make your huge tower small with the right components? No. Noise level is only part of what I find appealing about this. I'm just sick of these honkin' towers we have - PC makers don't put enough effort into the DESIGN of their products.

I'm amazed at how hard some of you guys are on things like this - can't you see why some, like myself, would find this appealing? Even if it's not something that meets YOUR needs, can't you see why some would? 8O

I agree about the huge tower, but it's under my desk anyway. And silent. Do you really like this cube thing ??

[danmanmayer]

I don't want a tiny computer that is hard to upgrade and impossible to sort throught he wires. I mean i don't think it is bad that they offer this sort of product for some other people but if i wanted something small and quite wouldn't i just a laptop? Perhaps one iwht a docking station? I just don't see why i would pay any extra for something like this. Oh well i guess many people put there computers on there desks and I have been happy for years to put it below and run the cable up to my monitor. Sweet. :D

[klinux]

I am way ahead of all y'all. :) I have had one of these tiny PCs for a few months. Some quick remarks and observation:

1. Style - I have yet met a person who's not impressed with the size or the all aluminum look of this machine. Although the many remarks of "awwww, it's so cuuuute" does not quite go with the image that I would like to project. It's looks like the best Lian-Li cases but fits in your backpack. Don't get me wrong, it does not replace a laptop which I have two (VAIO and the iBook) but its portability is quite handy for transporting to other areas of the house, office, other ppl's house, etc.

2. Value - Find me a modern PC @ its size and price that has 2 firewire port, 4 USB port, and TV-out all built in.

3. Moddability - Plenty of people have modded their SFF (small form factor) PCs. Case in point: http://www.wtfd00d.com/~wtflive/Berserk/ . It's no big deal now nor is it a challenge to mod your standard sized case - but try doing that on a small box!

4. Customizability - you can put whatever chips you want in there so you can make it a gaming system if you want. Ditto with the graphic cards and HD used. However, I am making this more of a server internet-browser machine so I am using a low power (12 watt under load - P4 uses 75 watt idle, I believe) VIA C3 chip. The sucker has no fan, just a heatsink. People always think I am nuts for running a machine without h a CPU fan until they actually see it in operation.

5. Environment - Silence. When I am at home, I do not want to feel like I am in a server farm. I modded the power supply unit took out its fan. Now looking forward to a quieter case fan. It is as quiet as any laptop and quieter than any desktop.

6. Environmental - Draws much less electric power - makes me feel like I am doing my share.

[Newsboy]

Ha, this thread cracked me up! I was *just* at Best Buy and Circuit City snatching up some 128 mb PC133 SoDimms for a couple Cappuccino PCs I plan on building in September, for my apartment at school. Price was right, $14.99 US, after rebates. I also picked up a 64 mb PC133 stick for FREE after rebate at CompUSA a few weeks ago, for a Shuttle SV24 I'm building.

I also plan on going with 833-900 mhz Via C3 processors, as they don't need cooling fans, so I can forego CPU fans, and possibly case fans, depending on components selected. Silent is good. Though if I just take my hearing aid out...huh? What? LOL! But even being deaf/hard of hearing, I *still* hate that my Antec Server case sounds like I'm riding in a jetliner, w/ the 3 80mm case fans and CPU fan going full blast.

Just waiting for a *good* LCD monitor at $250. The Samsung SyncMaster 151S looks great, for only $370 street price, but lower is better, b/c then I can have a PC in each room!

So, to recap, the existing Antec tower goes in the basement for data storage and printing, two Cappuccino PCs, one in the bedroom and one in the living room, and a Shuttle SV24 for CD burning in the den/office area!

*living in PC heaven...*

[Aceze]

And hard drives are slow speed (4200 RPM)...as apposed to 7200 RPM on a desktop.
This is absolutely the killer for me. 4200RPM hard drives are slow as molasses, esp. with WinXP. I think IBM has just released some 5400RPM notebook drives, and if so, that would be great (although I assume their power requirements are higher).

Wouldn't it be great if WD (or someone) makes 2.5" HDDs with, like 8MB cache :)

Actually, it's been done. First by Toshiba, with the MK4019GAX with 16MB (that's right, 16MB!) cache on a 5400RPM drive. Apparently it rivals 7200rpm drive performance.
Also, IBM just released their Travelstar 30GNX line which have 8MB caches and also run at 5400rpm.

This trend of putting cooler, and typically less powerful processors (the VIA/Cyrix C3 and such chipsets, as well as the Transmeta Crusoe chips) into tiny cases has been going on for quite some time. In fact, the VIA Eden chipset has been out for quite some time (AFAIK) boasting tiny formfactors and completely fanless (in one version) design.

In fact, the Metapad and OQO design computers (portable computer with a screen that hooks up to laptop or desktop "shells") is the evolution of small and cool computer design. Even the tablet PC and MIRA project takes cues from this line of thought, ditching the "power is everything" line in order to move the computer industry into new areas - involving much smaller formfactors.

And now for my controversial opinion :) This is why I think the PDA's days are numbered. With full powered solutions at palmtop sizes almost here, the market for proprietary and non-x86 computing in a PDA size is on it's way out. The PDA market can only survive if it drops substantially in price and competes exclusively in the low end. The OQO as well as the Metapad/Antelope design are out, and were demonstrated at PC Expo - for $12-1400 coming in Q4 (the OQO) and smaller than my PocketPC (albeit somewhat thicker), this BLOWS away any PocketPC in the current or near future, and the price point is dangerously close to what the Ipaq is right now!

Hahaha, byebye Pocketpc and Palm!!!
Aceze

[Jason Dunn]

And now for my controversial opinion :) This is why I think the PDA's days are numbered. With full powered solutions at palmtop sizes almost here, the market for proprietary and non-x86 computing in a PDA size is on it's way out.

It won't happen for one reason: GUI.

Ponder that. :wink:

[st63z]

And hard drives are slow speed (4200 RPM)...as apposed to 7200 RPM on a desktop.
This is absolutely the killer for me. 4200RPM hard drives are slow as molasses, esp. with WinXP. I think IBM has just released some 5400RPM notebook drives, and if so, that would be great (although I assume their power requirements are higher).

Wouldn't it be great if WD (or someone) makes 2.5" HDDs with, like 8MB cache :)

Actually, it's been done. First by Toshiba, with the MK4019GAX with 16MB (that's right, 16MB!) cache on a 5400RPM drive. Apparently it rivals 7200rpm drive performance.
Also, IBM just released their Travelstar 30GNX line which have 8MB caches and also run at 5400rpm.

This trend of putting cooler, and typically less powerful processors (the VIA/Cyrix C3 and such chipsets, as well as the Transmeta Crusoe chips) into tiny cases has been going on for quite some time. In fact, the VIA Eden chipset has been out for quite some time (AFAIK) boasting tiny formfactors and completely fanless (in one version) design.

In fact, the Metapad and OQO design computers (portable computer with a screen that hooks up to laptop or desktop "shells") is the evolution of small and cool computer design. Even the tablet PC and MIRA project takes cues from this line of thought, ditching the "power is everything" line in order to move the computer industry into new areas - involving much smaller formfactors.

And now for my controversial opinion :) This is why I think the PDA's days are numbered. With full powered solutions at palmtop sizes almost here, the market for proprietary and non-x86 computing in a PDA size is on it's way out. The PDA market can only survive if it drops substantially in price and competes exclusively in the low end. The OQO as well as the Metapad/Antelope design are out, and were demonstrated at PC Expo - for $12-1400 coming in Q4 (the OQO) and smaller than my PocketPC (albeit somewhat thicker), this BLOWS away any PocketPC in the current or near future, and the price point is dangerously close to what the Ipaq is right now!

Hahaha, byebye Pocketpc and Palm!!!
Aceze

Interesting, thanks for the info. I didn't know about the 30GNX, but I thought SR threads had already debunked the 16MB Toshiba rumor?

BTW, I had thought about getting the C3, but I just couldn't find one to buy at the time :)

And I agree, that OQO with the 4" VGA is sweet (let's hope they can add a PC Card slot later).

P.S. Can you give us a pointer for more Metapad/Antelope info?

[juni]

I didn't think I would be, but I am impressed with the new imac we got for my wife. It looks a little like the thingie you have, but more stylish ;). Did you know MS Office looks and works ten times better on OsX?

http://www.apple.com/imac/

[/url]

[klinux]

Newsboy: you need at least one fan in your SV24 i.e. your case fan.

st63z: I got my c3 chip at tigerdirect.

[kagayaki1]

And now for my controversial opinion :) This is why I think the PDA's days are numbered. With full powered solutions at palmtop sizes almost here, the market for proprietary and non-x86 computing in a PDA size is on it's way out.

It won't happen for one reason: GUI.

Ponder that. :wink:

How about another reason: boot time.

Until instant on/off is achieved (in a mainstream effort by a major manufacturer, since I know it's been done, thank you), the PDA will continue to dominate as a handheld.

Oh, how about price? Even a high end PDA ($700) doesn't hold a candle to a OQO ($12-1400). Deep down, though, I do like the OQO idea!

One last thing: what people actually use them for. While we could do our PIM stuff in a Outlook environment, any PDA environment has been streamlined to make the input quick. This kind of relates to Jason's original point... :roll:

[Newsboy]

klinux - Correct on the case fan, but this article (http://www.pcpowerzone.co.uk/reviews.php?id=85) has some great suggestions on replacement fans for another Shuttle model, that *really* quiet the unit down, as well as some case mods to reduce fan noise, like cutting off the flat edged fan guard, making a big round hole, and replacing the guard with a tubular steel one like you find at your local computer store. Check it out. A 20dB PC, wouldn't that be nice?

Wave Point (http://www.wave-point.com) makes a pretty sweet line of "all-in-one" lcd pc's that I found while doing some heavy research on such devices tonight.

http://www.wave-point.com/images/LCD_PC_sd_kb.gif

I like the "mini-pc" concept, but I still lust after a device like Gateway's Profile series, or the IBM NetVista X series. Seems like *everyone* has given up on these things, except for a couple "niche" companies. These are actually made by a company in New Zealand, and re-marketed by Wave Point, but they're pretty darn powerful!

Specs run from a 1 ghz celeron to 2.4 ghz P4, and it takes standard dimm memory, such as PC133 sdram and rdram, standard 3.5" hard drives, notebook cd/dvd drives and floppy drive...the devil is in the details however. They have better graphics chips than most all in one pc's, and the part that excites me, two PCMCIA Type II (or one Type III) slots built-in! So many of the devices we use in our PPC's, we can also slip into the desktop! How much faster could you transfer data to a digital media card (CF/SD/MMC/SM) if you could use a PC card adaptor?!

I am on the fence between the Shuttle SV24, the Cappuccino Mini-PC, and the Wave-Point LP200. I don't play games on my pc, so I don't need a "screamer", just something for office apps. and school work.

Maybe...one of each? *evil laugh* :twisted: I'll definetly have the money come September, but what to do with it...

[sesummers]

Take a look at the mini-ITX machines currently shipping. http://www.caseoutlet.com/NWPc/CS-135/default.htm or http://www.caseoutlet.com/NWPc/2677/itx2677.html for example. They're approximately 11 1/2" x 2 1/2" x 10 3/4" and run with 1 or zero fans.
Getting close, but not quite there yet. I would prefer more width and height, but less depth. Why does it have to be square? I want something that an LCD display would be at home on top of, that doesn't need much more depth than the display does (maybe 8").

But I want expandabiity too- preferrably, with standard PCI and AGP cards, although I don't mind them mounted horizontally. I want it to be able to use a standard CDRW drive, and a couple standard 3.5" hard drives. (I have no real need for a 3.5" external drive bay though. With a CDRW, floppys are obsolete.)

I've done sketches and found that with a small enough power supply, and maybe a mobile Pentium processor to reduce the need for the humungous heat sink, it can all fit. I just don't have a metal shop handy to build one, and of course, I'd need the right size/shape motherboard...

[don dre]

the way it is. I put in my own power supply and fans (as opposed to ones from the oem) and it is rather quiet. Most importantly, once you enter the realm of stylish pc's you start to leave standards behind like ATX. This will make it more expensive to manufacture hardware as multiple manufacturing processes will need to be set up. I still am not ready to give up my drive bay either. The last thing I want is to have a small pc sitting on my desk with all sorts of external equipment plugged in. I like having my desktop as a central server for my roommates laptop, our ipaq's (all through wifi), and for the living room i'm thinking of a Mira or tablet. I'm most interested in things that can use the desktop to its fullest potential (such as the Mira) and getting rid of all thos damn wires!

[Will T Smith]

Yes, notebooks do not yet contain pixel shader equipment. However, minus games, they are as capable as any other piece of equipment. It really depends on WHAT you do with them. Honestly, if gaming is your major use, you'd be better served by Playstation or X-Box.

Don't get me wrong, I like notebooks, but they're not "desktop replacements" for everyone. In addition to the very real limitations of not being able to upgrade them much beyond RAM and hard drives, I don't think a notebook would make a good video editing device for instance (despite what Apple propaganda would tell you).

Notebooks are great computers for 90% of the people out there, but I couldn't have ONLY a notebook for my computer.



Dell recently started using a "swappable" video chipset board. The board can be swapped to provide either an ATI or nVidia solution. As this format becomes more prolific, it is reasonable to assume that "power notebooks" will generally contain the ability to swap integrated graphics with "latest and greatest" parts from aftermarket suppliers.


As far as video-editing goes, there are still some problems. The drive is the major bottleneck. The other obvious one is display size. Although most laptops do contain an external connector.

My guess is that these limitations will dissolve in a couple of years. Future notebooks will contain more solid state secondary (flash and FRAM) storage bridge the gap between the spinning drive and the transient RAM.

The market trend is also to provide multiple video solutions in a small package. It's a pity that nVidia's current mobile chipset does not contain multi-display capability (it can only do a mirrored display, not to distinct desktops). However, such capabilities could overcome the limitations of form factor making a notebook the portable, dockable "brains" of a powerhouse workstation.

[Will T Smith]

So when is the P4 SS51 or the nForce2 version of SS40 coming out, exactly? Late summer/early fall? I need to get one soon for someone. I just hope Shuttle's heat dissipation methods will be enough to make the Athlon XP unit run quietly enough.

So many options, the Shuttle type, the slim desktop type (kinda like a mini rackmount), the type like the Cappuccino at ThinkGeek, not to mention laptops :) I'm also eagerly awaiting OQO (I hope they'll be able to also use 20GB), I can't wait to see what desktop/laptop docking stations they come out with.

So what's a good combo DVD/CD-RW drive? I've used Ricoh's 12x DVD + 20x10x40 CD-RW, but I think there's a 16x DVD + 32x10x40 CD-RW now (I wish it's also slot-loading like my Pioneer DVD-ROM drives, though). But my old Ricoh was $200+, so it might be worth it to just move up to DVD+RW altogether...

Read the "Toms Hardware" review. The unit contains what's called a "Heat Pipe". It conveys the CPU exhaust directlly out of the case intead of recirculating it inside.

[RobertCF]

That thing is nasty. I love my full-size tower, I love all the great case mods you can do with them, and I'm sorry but compressed boxes wreak of being an X-box or PS2 (yuchh!). Granted, I'm sure those pansy looking boxes will find enough buyers to sustain the concept, but for me it represents too much limitation in expansion and a tremendous reduction in the "canvas" that some of us feel our boxes have become as an artistic expression. So, Mini-Me isn't for me... :wink:

[Newsboy]

Getting close, but not quite there yet. I would prefer more width and height, but less depth. Why does it have to be square? I want something that an LCD display would be at home on top of, that doesn't need much more depth than the display does (maybe 8").

More proof that people don't read my posts. ;) Check out www.wave-point.com

[sesummers]

Getting close, but not quite there yet. I would prefer more width and height, but less depth. Why does it have to be square? I want something that an LCD display would be at home on top of, that doesn't need much more depth than the display does (maybe 8").

More proof that people don't read my posts. ;) Check out www.wave-point.com
Still close but no cigar. Why do I have to buy their monitor? What if I want to upgrade the CD drive? I want a small case that takes a standard 5.25" CD drive, two standard 3.5" hard drives, two PCI cards and an AGP card, and two or three sockets for memory sticks. I want it about the size of a DVD player or VCR- about 17" wide, 11" deep (max), and 3-4" high.

If you pile up all these parts just right, and give it a small power supply (or even make that external- a big wall wart), it all fits. It would be fully expandable with off-the-shelf stuff, yet be small enough to keep on your desk without taking it over. It would also make a great media PC, since it would fit on a shelf in your entertainment center.

[klinux]

That sounds great sesummers - but try building one that is cheap enough to buy but also makes enough money for you which allows easy to use integration but maintains an all-user gradable modular components. What? Too hard? :twisted: :lol: :wink:

[klinux]

BTW, sesummers, by no means am I dissing your idea - if you can built it, I'll buy it off ya! 8)

Newsboys: yes, replacing all three fans with quiet ones is a good idea and I know I will have to do that if I go with any chip other than the Via C3. But three quiet fans is still louder than one quiet fan.

[Aceze]

Interesting, thanks for the info. I didn't know about the 30GNX, but I thought SR threads had already debunked the 16MB Toshiba rumor?


??? I dont remember any "debunking" going on about the Toshiba HD. It's out and running fine (it's in the Toshiba 5105-1607 already!). There are pictures all over the place for it, and you should be able to get one (although not easily due to it being a new product) if you look around. It really does have a 16mb cache and performs very well.


And I agree, that OQO with the 4" VGA is sweet (let's hope they can add a PC Card slot later).

P.S. Can you give us a pointer for more Metapad/Antelope info?

Try: http://www.transmetazone.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1167 (page 9 of that article).

Aceze

[Aceze]

And now for my controversial opinion :) This is why I think the PDA's days are numbered. With full powered solutions at palmtop sizes almost here, the market for proprietary and non-x86 computing in a PDA size is on it's way out.

It won't happen for one reason: GUI.

Ponder that. :wink:

I already have, and what's the big deal? XP Tablet edition will supply the handwriting recognition and fast text entry, voice recognition can be run with any off-the-shelf software (Viavoice, Dragon, etc), everything we've been dying for in the PDA world is at your fingertips in one fell swoop. All you're missing is a pretty "Today" screen - whoop-tee-doo. You still end have to use the "Start" bar in bare-bones PPC2002, so what's the big deal? Heck, I wouldnt be surprised if someone's probably programmed some sort of "Today" like screen for Windows already (or just bring up & maximize Outlook if you want!).

You want easy app launching? Just throw shortcuts on your desktop like everyone does! You want a PIM front end? Umm, just run Outlook and fullscreen it (or whatever else PIM you want to run! No more being locked in to what Palm or Microsoft make you use). Honestly I dont see ANY difficulty using these machines at the point size (640x480) we're talking about - especially since the screen on the OQO (for example) is 4". If you have a problem with font size, why change the font size! Or how about using the Accessability services and zoom text, highlight text etc - the options are endless. Pocket PC and Palm = limited flexibility and locked in functionality - you want something else or some different look, pay for 3rd party apps. No thanks!

It think GUI is one of the WEAK spots of PocketPC vs a "real" computer. With millions of apps to choose from in the PC world, how can you go wrong? Dont like what you got, program it yourself - VB, VC, whatever!

Oh, and as for start up time, XP loads fairly quickly, but there's always Suspend to Ram or Suspend to Disk for pretty instant on-off use (or did you forget that notebook users have been enjoying pretty good instant on use for quite some time?).

Aceze

[st63z]

Interesting, thanks for the info. I didn't know about the 30GNX, but I thought SR threads had already debunked the 16MB Toshiba rumor?


??? I dont remember any "debunking" going on about the Toshiba HD. It's out and running fine (it's in the Toshiba 5105-1607 already!). There are pictures all over the place for it, and you should be able to get one (although not easily due to it being a new product) if you look around. It really does have a 16mb cache and performs very well.


And I agree, that OQO with the 4" VGA is sweet (let's hope they can add a PC Card slot later).

P.S. Can you give us a pointer for more Metapad/Antelope info?

Try: http://www.transmetazone.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1167 (page 9 of that article).

Aceze

Ohh, I remember now. So someone actually licensed IBM's prototype research-concept device and will bring it to market, cool!

In regards to the Toshiba HDD, I just remember the hoopla when it was first announced a long time ago, with threads speculating that it was 16megabit cache (like ~2MB cache) and the like. I never did follow up on what the real story on it was and forgot about it over time. This sounds really good as a fast 2.5" HDD, I'm gonna look for the price (assuming they sell it through OEM channels), and try to find some articles confirming the excellent speed...

[Newsboy]

I just checked prices on the Toshiba 40 gb drive w/ 16 mb cache...$435 was the only price I could find. No one else will even *list* a price for it.

At that price...fuhgedaboutit!

[klinux]

Picture of my SV24...

http://home.earthlink.net/~dkla1/_uimages/Desktop001.jpg

[Jason Dunn]

Picture of my SV24...

Man, that's a beautiful thing. :D

[klinux]

Thanks Jason. A better shot that shows the neon mod.

http://home.earthlink.net/~dkla1/_uimages/Desktop.jpg