The tiny Sony DSC-U10

[Jason Dunn]

<a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/0206/02062701sonydscu10.asp">http://www.dpreview.com/news/0206/02062701sonydscu10.asp</a><br /><br />Talk about a tiny camera! I've always been amazed at Sony's ability to create electronic wonders, and equally amazed by their stubborn refusal to make their products work with mainstream removable storage like CF, SD, and MMC. I'd likely have several Sony products by now if they played nice with the storage formats all my other devices have.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/sonydsc.jpg" /><br /><br />"Sony has today announced their smallest and lightest digital camera the DSC-U10. This tiny 1.3 megapixel digital camera weighs in at just 118 g (4.2 oz) fully loaded, has a fixed focal length lens, one inch LCD, is powered by two AAA batteries and stores its images onto MemoryStick. This camera is expected to hit the stores in Japan on 20th July this year and should have a street price of 25,000 YEN (approx. US$200)."

[Paul P]

Talk about a tiny camera! I've always been amazed at Sony's ability to create electronic wonders, and equally amazed by their stubborn refusal to make their products work with mainstream removable storage like CF, SD, and MMC. I'd likely have several Sony products by now if they played nice with the storage formats all my other devices have.


I think you're depriving yourself of great products then. Memory stick also has its advantages. Why is it wrong for an innovative company to push its own technology and standards? You already mentioned 3 formats, why not own the forth? Why must Sony compromise?

[Jason Dunn]

I think you're depriving yourself of great products then. Memory stick also has its advantages. Why is it wrong for an innovative company to push its own technology and standards? You already mentioned 3 formats, why not own the forth? Why must Sony compromise?

It's because I'd be locked into buying Sony products without having an option. I'm still using the same CompactFlash cards that came with my Kodak DC-265 camera from nearly four years ago! I have a stack of CF, SD, and MMC cards here that I can use in all sorts of devices.

Taking a memory card from my camera and putting it into my Pocket PC is very important to me, as is being able to dump data from a CF card to any number of computers that I'm around that have CF card readers. There's a beautiful interoperability there that Sony can Sony achieve if they lock you into using their devices.

I'd have no problem recommending a Sony camera to someone who only has one device - the camera - because device cooperation means nothing to them. But for me, it's everything, and that's why Sony will never see a dime of my money - they're too focused on trying to compensate for their screw-up with Betamax instead of focusing on the products. It's a Japanese business thing. 8O

PS - What would one advantage of the memory stick be? I can't think of one.

[Paul P]

It's because I'd be locked into buying Sony products without having an option. I'm still using the same CompactFlash cards that came with my Kodak DC-265 camera from nearly four years ago! I have a stack of CF, SD, and MMC cards here that I can use in all sorts of devices.

Taking a memory card from my camera and putting it into my Pocket PC is very important to me, as is being able to dump data from a CF card to any number of computers that I'm around that have CF card readers. There's a beautiful interoperability there that Sony can Sony achieve if they lock you into using their devices.

Okay, that's a valid point. But how are you locked up exactly? From what you just said, it seems that you are locked into buying products that use either CF, SD, and MMC cards. I believe there are CF card readers that accomodate memory stick format as well.

You mean buying a $40 dollar 64MB Memory Stick locks you into buying Sony products exclusively? I am sorry, but I do not see that as having being chained to a wall. I don't mean to sound rude, and I hope I won't, but we are talking about expensive products here. I've recently upgraded to a DSC-P1 Sony Cam from a DSC-P9. It costed me quite a bit to upgrade. But I did so because I felt the P9 was the best camera out there, not because of the memory stick I previously purchased. Are you implying that I spent $600 because I didn't want that old memory stick to go to waste? Today, memory sticks are simply not that expensive and really do not stand in the way of purchasing other products. Just because I can't use my memory stick in my ipaq doesn't mean I was forced to purchase a Clie, which of course I didn't.

I'd have no problem recommending a Sony camera to someone who only has one device - the camera - because device cooperation means nothing to them. But for me, it's everything, and that's why Sony will never see a dime of my money - they're too focused on trying to compensate for their screw-up with Betamax instead of focusing on the products. It's a Japanese business thing.

What screw-ups are you referring to specifically if I may ask? Call me crazy, but I don't think Sony will see a dime of your money even if they discontinue memory stick in favor of SD.


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[Jason Dunn]

Okay, that's a valid point. But how are you locked up exactly? From what you just said, it seems that you are locked into buying products that use either CF, SD, and MMC cards. I believe there are CF card readers that accomodate memory stick format as well.

Yes, I am locked into buying products that support CF, MMC, and SD. But the point here is that I already have a lot of gadgets that use those formats, and those formats are used in a huge variety of digital gadgets out there - Memory Stick technology is not. By going with Memory Stick, I'd be immediately and drastically reducing my options for device to device compatibility.

You mean buying a $40 dollar 64MB Memory Stick locks you into buying Sony products exclusively?

If I want to keep using those products, yes. I see where you're going with this, but let me head you off at the pass. First, I'd never buy a 64 meg card. I use 256 meg and 512 meg CF cards in my devices and cameras - nothing smaller (except for 128 meg in SD format). Memory Sticks are limited in capacity and are expensive in comparison to CF. 128 megs for $94.99 US? I can get DOUBLE that capacity in CF for $92! And today I just posted on a 128 meg SD card for $49! SD cards have now hit 512 megs, and CF has hit 1 gig (not to mention the 1 gig Microdrive I've had for nearly two years). There's a lot of momentum behind CF/MMC/SD - it's only very recently that companies other than Sony started making Memory Stick technology. Up until now, it's been a complete monopoly with only Sony making the cards. The Sony cards used to be VERY expensive, but the prices have come down a lot. That's a good thing, but they're still more expensive than competing memory card formats. And now Sony has that new half-size Memory Stick format, right? Hooray! Yet another card to go out and buy...!

If there was a distinct advantage to Memory Stick technology, I'd certainly be interested in it. You didn't answer my previous question - what advantage does it offer? It's more expensive per MB than other formats, it's bigger than SD and longer than CF, and I haven't heard about it being any faster or less power-consuming than CF/SD. What's so great about it, other than the fact that you're forced to use it in Sony products? How is that a BENEFIT exactly?

Are you implying that I spent $600 because I didn't want that old memory stick to go to waste? Today, memory sticks are simply not that expensive and really do not stand in the way of purchasing other products. Just because I can't use my memory stick in my ipaq doesn't mean I was forced to purchase a Clie, which of course I didn't.

Device interoperability obviously isn't important to YOU. It is to ME. End of point.

What screw-ups are you referring to specifically if I may ask? Call me crazy, but I don't think Sony will see a dime of your money even if they discontinue memory stick in favor of SD.

You consider Betamax to be a success in the market? :roll: Sony is still smarting from what happened with Betamax, and they're quite determined not to let the proprietary nature of their Memory Stick have a repeat of the Betamax. It's only through sheer market muscle that the Memory Stick technology has survived - if Sony hadn't integrated it into dozens of their products, it would be a dead format.

Call me crazy, but I don't think Sony will see a dime of your money even if they discontinue memory stick in favor of SD.

Ok. You're crazy. :D I would have bought a new Sony digital camera (probably a DSC-F707 - love that zoom!) instead of my Canon G2 if Sony worked with CF or SD formats. I'm looking to get a new digital video camera in a while, and it may very well be a Sony, because I have no prior investment in video technology. I would NOT buy their new ultra-mini cam though because it uses a proprietary Sony media format. See above for why.

Look, bottom line: I'm not telling YOU not to buy Sony products, I'm telling telling you why I'M not going to buy them. You seem to be taking this very personally. :D If it helps you understand me any better, I've also not purchased a DVD burner for the same reason - there are too many dueling standards out there, and ultimate the consumer will be screwed by one company or another when they finally agree on the same format. In the end, the consumer loses when the format they chose gets abandoned by the company who created it because the market shifts in another direction.

Do you happen to work for Sony? 8O

[Will T Smith]

I think you're depriving yourself of great products then. Memory stick also has its advantages. Why is it wrong for an innovative company to push its own technology and standards? You already mentioned 3 formats, why not own the forth? Why must Sony compromise?

It's because I'd be locked into buying Sony products without having an option. I'm still using the same CompactFlash cards that came with my Kodak DC-265 camera from nearly four years ago! I have a stack of CF, SD, and MMC cards here that I can use in all sorts of devices.

Taking a memory card from my camera and putting it into my Pocket PC is very important to me, as is being able to dump data from a CF card to any number of computers that I'm around that have CF card readers. There's a beautiful interoperability there that Sony can Sony achieve if they lock you into using their devices.

I'd have no problem recommending a Sony camera to someone who only has one device - the camera - because device cooperation means nothing to them. But for me, it's everything, and that's why Sony will never see a dime of my money - they're too focused on trying to compensate for their screw-up with Betamax instead of focusing on the products. It's a Japanese business thing. 8O

PS - What would one advantage of the memory stick be? I can't think of one.

I too prefer industry wide solutions. In the case of Memory Stick vs SD, I think that sony had some definite ideas about what it wanted and extensive plans to deploy their technology. Secure Digital would have held them up.

Look at Sony's position in the market now. Memory stick is by FAR more prevalent then SD/MMC. Several I/O devices are already available for the Clie line. Memory stick is deployed across their entire line from cameras, handhelds, phones, laptops, PCs, printers, even TVs and DVD players.

Does memory stick lock you in ... no. You can purchase a Memstick->CF1 adapter that will give you access with MOST pocketPC devices. There is even a Springboard module for Memory Stick. Plus the forthcoming ASUS devices will support Memory Stick as opposed to SDIO.

Sony has executed well. They deployed their product extensively. They've also managed to get the price down to competitive levels.

Regarding CF vs MemStick & CF vs SDIO. There is really no competition here. CF is analogous to PC cards (in fact it IS a minitiarized PC card). CF will be around for a LONG time to come. Saying that CF is going away is like claiming that PC cards will go away. In fact, in coming years I would speculate that CF will be preferred over PCMCIA in compact laptops due to size constraints and high availability of CF components.

SDIO and MemStick are much more serialized in their communications methodology. They also feature zero insertion force connectors which is a boost as the media insertion/ejection mechanism is vastly simplified. CF is PCMCIA which is basically a portable ISA bus. It's intrisically linked to the ISA architecture and that has long term limitations from a software and hardware standpoint.

Ultimately, both technologies should become cheap enough where one can put BOTH in the same device.

[Paul P]

Yes, I am locked into buying products that support CF, MMC, and SD. But the point here is that I already have a lot of gadgets that use those formats, and those formats are used in a huge variety of digital gadgets out there - Memory Stick technology is not. By going with Memory Stick, I'd be immediately and drastically reducing my options for device to device compatibility.

Ok. You're crazy. :D I would have bought a new Sony digital camera (probably a DSC-F707 - love that zoom!) instead of my Canon G2 if Sony worked with CF or SD formats. I'm looking to get a new digital video camera in a while, and it may very well be a Sony, because I have no prior investment in video technology. I would NOT buy their new ultra-mini cam though because it uses a proprietary Sony media format. See above for why.

Okay, I respect that. Transferring pictures from my camera to my Ipaq right after I took them is something I never did. I am not even sure how Ipaq handles pictures over a meg. Unless you resize them in your camera first, but then why would you need 256MB CF? That's besides the point.

If I want to keep using those products, yes. I see where you're going with this, but let me head you off at the pass. First, I'd never buy a 64 meg card. I use 256 meg and 512 meg CF cards in my devices and cameras - nothing smaller (except for 128 meg in SD format). Memory Sticks are limited in capacity and are expensive in comparison to CF. 128 megs for $94.99 US? I can get DOUBLE that capacity in CF for $92! And today I just posted on a 128 meg SD card for $49! SD cards have now hit 512 megs, and CF has hit 1 gig (not to mention the 1 gig Microdrive I've had for nearly two years).

Okay, can't say anything here because I find 64MB of memory plenty for my cam. That's just me. Btw, I paid about 80 bucks for 128MB stick and I rarely need that much memory. Again, can't really say anything if you will not use anything smaller than 256MB. Sony has been slower in introducing memory sticks with greater capacity, that's true.

If there was a distinct advantage to Memory Stick technology, I'd certainly be interested in it. You didn't answer my previous question - what advantage does it offer? It's more expensive per MB than other formats, it's bigger than SD and longer than CF, and I haven't heard about it being any faster or less power-consuming than CF/SD. What's so great about it, other than the fact that you're forced to use it in Sony products? How is that a BENEFIT exactly?

I shouldn't of said advantage because that advantage only applies to those that are "locked up" in other sony products. So I take that back. The advantage of transferring memory stick from my camera or my voice recorder to my laptop doesn't apply here I guess (actually it works in favor of your argument, but again, I don't feel locked up) I never transferred pictures from my camera to Ipaq after I took them.

Device interoperability obviously isn't important to YOU. It is to ME. End of point.

It is important to me. But the decision to purchase 3870 with SD was not a huge one for me. If it was for you, then I can't question that. I don't mind the fact that other manufacturers do not support memory stick.

You consider Betamax to be a success in the market? :roll: Sony is still smarting from what happened with Betamax, and they're quite determined not to let the proprietary nature of their Memory Stick have a repeat of the Betamax.

When was that? In the late 80s? Any more recent blunders?

Look, bottom line: I'm not telling YOU not to buy Sony products, I'm telling telling you why I'M not going to buy them. You seem to be taking this very personally. :D If it helps you understand me any better, I've also not purchased a DVD burner for the same reason - there are too many dueling standards out there, and ultimate the consumer will be screwed by one company or another when they finally agree on the same format. In the end, the consumer loses when the format they chose gets abandoned by the company who created it because the market shifts in another direction.

I agree with you on the DVD burner issue 100%, but we're not talking about a $400-$600 investment rendered useless because the DVD standard that was eventually adopted is not the one you paid money for. I understand your reasoning and preference for compatibility, but how will you get screwed by buying a memory stick product?

Do you happen to work for Sony? 8O

No. But somebody asked me if I worked for Compaq just last week. hehe. So I am not completely biased and this is not personal at all. Anyways, thanks for your thoughts.

[Kre]

Well I completely understand what youre trying to say, Jason, because I share the same perspective about MStick. Sony has made effort to offer an MS slot in most of their products, but 99% of the manufacturers whose products have a memory slot in them, dont use use the MS format at all. They use the other formats. And who wants to use a stupid adaptor everytime just so they can deal with MS in another device? Sony has been pushing MS for years and the biggest capacity they have is only 128MB. Yawn. SD hasnt been out that long and its already being manufactured with four times that capacity in one third the size or less. Maybe Sony should just bypass all their other plans with MS, and come out with a 1GB memory needle. :lol:

But although this Sony camera is small, I still like the Minolta Dimage X better. Its the same width, close to double the height, but only half the thickness of this Sony. The LCD on the Minolta is almost double the size, and it has double the resolution of the Sony. And the Minolta takes SD. Very nice. Not to mention, it has a 3x zoom while the Sony is a fixed focal length. But the cool thing about the lens on the Minolta is that it doesnt protrude from the body when zooming. It has a very fast start up time, one of the fastest in the business, if not the fastest, has a built in flash, it looks great, and has received great reviews. With its built in SD slot, you can take the card and slap it into the Ipaqs or another handhelds SD slot. Easy. No adaptors to mess with. The Sony takes two AAA batteries which will give a battery life in an LCD equipped digital camera of about thirty seconds, while the Minolta has a very small swappable rechargable LiIon. You can record audio and video on the Minolta, albeit not much, but still... And the SD format will allow a much bigger capacity for your photos than the MStick.

The Minolta is twice the price, but youre getting ten times the camera at roughly the same size and weight. And to me, the Minolta looks much nicer than this Sony.

www.dimage.minolta.com/

Give me the Minolta anyday... and Secure Digital. And no, I dont work for Minolta. :)


Now if you want a really, really small digital camera, take a look at the Blink below. It has no LCD, and it has very limited features, but its still pretty cool. Also, the Blink is better than the L`espion... more storage capacity, better software, and higher resolution for the same price. Youll know what Im talking about when you click on the link and look around...

www.firebox.com/index.html?dir=firebox&action=product&id=690&showAllImages=

[st63z]

We'll see how Sony's new proprietary MicroMV cassette fare in the palmcorder market. As the newest developed format, it's got its advantages (smaller dimensions, indexing) and disadvantages (no easy editing like DV/MJPEG, unproven future, the Sony "lock-in" factor). While the MicroMV advantages are appreciable (whereas MemStick nowadays seems to be a proprietary format just for the heck of it), I just can't give in to it :)

For example, the Sony DCR-IP7BT camcorder, which uses MicroMV and MS card, is certainly ultra-chic. But I still went with the JVC GR-DVP7u, which uses standardized miniDV cassette and SD card (incidentally, so do the Canon Elura 20MC/40MC and Panasonic PV-DC252/352, the other ultracompact camcorders in the U.S. market).

Let's not forget that Sony is just about the only one supporting the 8mm formats (8mm, Hi8, Digital8). I just can't remember whether they were also Sony-developed proprietary formats (?). But, just like in many other consumer electronics markets, Sony is HUGE in camcorders (IIRC, something like half the market alone) -- which is why it can often get away with these things (and why Sony is called the Microsoft of the consumer electronics world, hehe).


And yeah, I love my Minolta Dimage X, too :D 3.3"x2.8"x0.8" @4.8oz empty (2.1MP, 3x optical zoom, vid/audio clips, LiIon batts, SD card), whereas the Sony DSC-U10 is 3.3"x1.6"x1.5" @4.2oz loaded (1.3MP, fixed lens, AAA batts, MS card). In regards to the Blink, it did get a good review from PCMag's recent roundup comparison... you can also find a few of these type of cams at dynamism.com. They're great and all, but I've always considered the fixed built-in memory to be too limiting.

I did buy the multi-function Panasonic SV-AV10 wonder gadget, which uses SD card (for stills, MPEG-4, MP3/voice clips). Though I ultimately returned it -- too much overlap with my PPC -- it's really fun to use and just so cool! People always did a double-take when they see the 2" swivel LCD from such a small device (kinda looks like opening a clamshell cellphone). It does need improvements, like a faster codec DSP. I was dismayed to notice that at full 320x240 mode, it was only shooting ~7fps choppy MPEG-4. And while it takes VGA stills, I'm guessing the CMOS sensor res might only be sufficient for around 320x240. At least there's a built-in flash, though. Lastly, optical zoom would be nice (given that the lens is on the *long* end of the chassis, hopefully there's enough depth space there to add this in a future model?).

Anyways, for better or worse, I guess Sony is too invested in their MS format. Thus witness developments such as the MS Duo (to better compete with SD in smaller devices)... I wonder though how aggresively Sony will (or can) ramp up MS/MS Duo capacities. It seems like the much larger "consortium" of companies backing SD has better manufacturing capabilities/influences in ramping up capacity (maybe mostly due to Matsu****a's determination?).