Palm OS is hot again [Archive] - Thoughts Media Forums

Jason Dunn

05-14-2002, 07:59 PM

<a href="http://www.brighthand.com/newsite/features/marketshare.html">http://www.brighthand.com/newsite/features/marketshare.html</a> Now here's an article that should stir up some...interesting discussion. Last year, Palm was inches from death - and this year, by all appearances, they seem to be surviving quite nicely. The innovation of their licensee's certainly helped - if they didn't have Sony, I'm not sure where they'd be now. Despite what some of you may think, I never wished for the death of Palm - what I wanted was market parity so companies would release solutions for the Pocket PC and not just the Palm because it was the dominant PDA. In order for that to happen, Palm needed to be taken down a few notches in the market - and they were. I'd still like to see the Pocket PC with 50% market share, but I'm confident that will happen soon enough. Here's the intro from the Brighthand column: "Despite what you may have heard, the death of Palm OS has been greatly exaggerated. According to the latest industry statistics, Palm OS continues to dominate the handheld market, and it's not just hanging on to existing marketshare, it's growing. Over the last eight weeks alone, Palm OS retail unit share of the market has increased by more than 10 percentage points, to 87.2 percent of the U.S. market, (NPDTechworld, Weekly U.S. Retail Data, February 17 to April 7, 2002). And it's not just in the U.S., Palm OS also appears to be recovering European marketshare it lost in 2001 to Pocket PC. In its April 2002 Mobile Device Market Overview, Canalys reported that Palm OS remains the leading mobile device software in Europe, with its marketshare having risen from 31 percent in the fall of 2001 to 43 percent in the first quarter of 2002." It should be noted that Brighthand is the official discussion board for Palm.

JMountford

05-14-2002, 08:42 PM

I don't really care what happens to Palm. I guess their new CEO and New business structure is working not to mention the fact that a lot of people did not have money for pocket PCs over the past half year.

Still I think SOny is the soul reason that Palm OS is hangining on, that and compacent users who are fairly unambitious as a whole.

Anyhow I would love to see Sony make a PPC. I am not saying I would buy it because I pretty much detest the Sony Busiess Model, but I bet it would be a great device!

Just ask yourself "was it a job for your palm?".

heov

05-14-2002, 09:28 PM

Why should one take note that Brighthand his the official discussion board for Palm? Did you say that so that we would know its a reliable source or to point out bias towards palm in the article.

Steve Bush

05-14-2002, 09:37 PM

Jason Dunn

05-14-2002, 10:18 PM

Why should one take note that Brighthand his the official discussion board for Palm? Did you say that so that we would know its a reliable source or to point out bias towards palm in the article.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions, but I felt it important that all the facts be on the table.

Jason Dunn

05-14-2002, 10:23 PM

"Official discussion board for Palm" is a misnomer. The Brighthand community discussion board IS sponsored by Palm, Inc. and is referenced from the community section of its web site, but neither Brighthand nor Palm has ever referred to it as the "official discussion board for Palm".

Semantics aside, you're the only discussion board linked here:
http://www.palm.com/community/
"User Discussion Boards - Talk frankly with fellow users @Brighthand.com"

If that's not official, I don't know what is. 8)

I'm assuming that by "sponsorship" you mean Palm pays you? I see no problem with that, and I think it's great to see an OEM supporting community sites (heck, I'd like a sponsor!), but as you've publicly pointed out my past associations with Microsoft in your own discussions, I felt it only fair to hold you to the same standard that you apply to others. Readers should have all the facts when they read an opinion piece, shouldn't they? :) I intended no insult with my comment - it was a statement of fact.

jdhill

05-14-2002, 10:35 PM

Hmmm, this may clarify the Brighthand "point of view". The site attempts to host both Palm and Pocket PC related content. However, there does appear to be a bias toward the Palm. For example, see last month's story about the Pocket PC turning two years old (http://www.brighthand.com/newsite/ppc/views/nextstep.html) and look at the last four paragraphs that read (emphasis added by me):
Well, there's no doubt that the success of the Compaq iPAQ Pocket PC has stirred other manufacturers, including Toshiba, NEC, Fujitsu-Siemens and Hitachi, to give it a shot. While this will serve to drive competition and innovation, it also could put us right back to where we were in 1999, when there were a lot of licensees fighting for a small piece of the handheld pie.

The other card that Microsoft and its manufacturing partners hope to play is the convergence card. Microsoft's Pocket PC Phone Edition platform enables device makers to create new Pocket PCs that double as cellphones. Whether there is a market for this remains to be seen, however, it's unlikely that consumers or businesses will want to foot two cellphone bills.

So as we mark Pocket PC's anniversary we must wonder what is in store for the next year. Will Pocket PC catch Palm, or will it become obviated by Tablet PCs and Smartphones?

Only time will tell.
The remarks seemed biased to me. I thought that unbiased journalism would have resulted in a less negative summary.

Pocket PC Thoughts, on the other hand, makes no pretense of being unbiased. It is, after all, a Pocket PC enthusiast site and a fair amount of Palm bashing goes on here.

Perhaps Steve should change the name of his site to "BrightPalm" or "Palm Thoughts" !!!

(OK, Steve, let me have it with both barrels, I may well deserve it).

05-14-2002, 10:37 PM

I do not see PPC gaining market share unless MS turns to the consumer market in a big way.

Jason Dunn

05-14-2002, 10:58 PM

Hans the Hedgehog

05-14-2002, 11:04 PM

JDHill-- now I see how the article wasn't glowing at the end sure, but I really don't see how it is Palm-biased. If being PPC-negative equates to Palm-positive, then I guess. :? I thought the concerns were valid and are relevant to the discussion of the platform's future and growth. But to each their own, I guess. :wink:

Jason-- this same new piece was picked up by many other non-Brighthand sites as well-- PDABuzz, OSNews.com, etc... <snide comment deleted :D >

But speaking of bias, most of us here are biased toward the PPC, of course-- I know, state the obvious, Hans-- but shouldn't we all strive to at least look at the other side and congratulate them when they do well? Why all the sneering and bitterness? JMountford?

Personally, Jason's attitude toward Palm and it's control of the PDA market, is exactly what I feel toward MS. I really do not like their strong-arm practices and I "detest their business model", too. Sure, I use them every day and I own a PPC, which I love. But I think they should use these latest results to wonder... "What's going on here? Maybe we should fix this."

I've noticed more articles recently (Pocketnow.com) about being unhappy with the PPC-- too many dust issues, slow downs with e-readers, crappy ClearType, dead backlights, etc...-- and it is a shame. The PPC platform is wonderful, but it seems the MS may be reaching out to the wrong audience, or, perhaps, the message is just not getting through. Sure, each and every little win helps, but when all you hear is "Is that a Palm?" and with mistaken advertising and lack of exposure in stores, the PPC is at a real disadvantage.

I guess it goes back to my original belief, posted many moons ago, that MS doesn't really seem to love the PPC-- sapling or not; they just don't seem to care how well it does. Not the PPC Team, Jason, MS management.

Jeesh, this post is much too long...

Happy days, everyone,
Hans.

Hans the Hedgehog

05-14-2002, 11:08 PM

I do not see PPC gaining market share unless MS turns to the consumer market in a big way.

Microsoft believes that the key to market share is the enterprise market - that the big sales numbers are with big companies. Quite frankly, I'm not sure what to believe. What do you think?

I'm still trying to find that article I read last week that said that something like 75% of PDA sales were to individuals with their own money, not companies. If that is true, then the enterprise market is not the current driving market force-- in the future, maybe, but not now. In the short term, in the market means in the mind... and that translates into dollars!

I don't know about all these %$#*& marketing reports. :x First one's up, then one's down. Sony has more market share than Compaq, Compaq has more market share than Sony... what's the truth!?! :?

Jason Dunn

05-14-2002, 11:12 PM

I don't know about all these %$#*& marketing reports. :x First one's up, then one's down. Sony has more market share than Compaq, Compaq has more market share than Sony... what's the truth!?! :?

I know - I always take "market share reports" with a grain of salt and think in terms of +/- 10%...because I never know how they're measuring the results - every one seems to be different!

Jason Dunn

05-14-2002, 11:20 PM

I've noticed more articles recently (Pocketnow.com) about being unhappy with the PPC-- too many dust issues, slow downs with e-readers, crappy ClearType, dead backlights, etc...-- and it is a shame.

I agree, it is a shame. But I'd say 80%+ of the issues are hardware related and have nothing to do with the software. Dust, back light problems, control pad problems, ugly Cleartype, etc - all hardware OEM issue. It's like the OEMs don't care enough about the market to put any serious resources into making SOLID hardware. Not that MS is perfect in their implementation mind you...

I guess it goes back to my original belief, posted many moons ago, that MS doesn't really seem to love the PPC-- sapling or not; they just don't seem to care how well it does. Not the PPC Team, Jason, MS management.

...I agree. I sometimes wonder what the Pocket PC team could do if they had more resources from "head office". Double the number of programmers, beef up the budget all around, and maybe they could give us repeating alarms back. ;-)

Pocket PC 2002 has nowhere near the ZING that Pocket PC 2000 did when it was first released. There are reasons for that, mind you, but the end result is the same: too many bugs, not enough improvement. But keep the faith: good things are on the horizon!

Hans the Hedgehog

05-14-2002, 11:51 PM

I agree, it is a shame. But I'd say 80%+ of the issues are hardware related and have nothing to do with the software. Dust, back light problems, control pad problems, ugly Cleartype, etc - all hardware OEM issue. It's like the OEMs don't care enough about the market to put any serious resources into making SOLID hardware. Not that MS is perfect in their implementation mind you...

Yeah, I didn't mean that MS is responsible for the hardware, but it does reflect on the name. When someone says, "I had to send my PPC back to HP/Compaq/Casio again," then those around them aren't to happy with the idea of shelling out $600 on such a device.

And when people like my Mother and her venerable Palm Vx have been chugging along for 3-something years without even a hard-reset, it just makes you wonder. Yeah, I know Palm/Handspring/Sony have had their share of market blunders, foul-ups, and out right mistakes, but word of mouth very rarely cares about truth-- it just spreads.

Anyways, me and my trust E-125 are making the best of it... just fighting of any jealous urges for all these new devices.

Hans.

Steve Bush

05-15-2002, 12:18 AM

I intended no insult with my comment - it was a statement of fact.
None taken, Jason. We've just never called it the "official" discussion board, since we have no exclusive agreement with Palm. We have absolutely no problem with you pointing out that Palm sponsors that board, in fact we're quite proud of it and state it on our About Us page. We'd feel the same if Microsoft decided to sponsor our Pocket PC board. :)

ThomasC22

05-15-2002, 02:14 AM

Still I think SOny is the soul reason that Palm OS is hangining on, that and compacent users who are fairly unambitious as a whole.

Well, its a nice theory but its totally untrue. Every, and I mean EVERY, single market share report I have ever seen has said that Palm sells more than double the units Sony sells. Handspring being number 2 btw. Just goes to show most users still don't care that much about innovation they just want to go out and but a "Palm".

As for the original topic, I do believe Palm is doing better as a company. They're certainly not in the dire straights they were a year or so ago and they've done some very smart things (e.g. releasing the m515 addressing almost all the problems people had with the m505). BUT I don't trust these number. Sadly, Palm's marketing department (and especially a certain idiotic Chief Competitive Officer) has proven too often in the past that they are willing to twist numbers to show what they want people to see even though they know that it isn't an accurate picture.

Brad Adrian

05-15-2002, 02:23 AM

Microsoft believes that the key to market share is the enterprise market - that the big sales numbers are with big companies. Quite frankly, I'm not sure what to believe. What do you think?

I think it depends on what type of PDA we're talking about. For wireless devices, I think they're right. The greatest rollout of the more complex, fully-functioned wireless data-enabled PDA/phones will be to enterprise users. Its the enterprises which see the value of wireless and can actually provide financial justification for acquiring wireless handsets and PDAs (as opposed to MY justification for doing things wirelessly: "Because I can."). Once more businesses wake up and start creating more compelling wireless applications, like sales force automation tools or server-based database query systems, there will be a "Pocket PC in every pocket."

05-15-2002, 04:50 AM

Microsoft believes that the key to market share is the enterprise market - that the big sales numbers are with big companies. Quite frankly, I'm not sure what to believe. What do you think?There is no contradiction between the two market segments. They can co-exist and cross-cultivate each other. The fact is that Palm devices have a dominant market share as a result of their focus on the consumer market. There is no harm in targeting the consumer market as well. Beside the added revenue potential, it will contribute to visibility and ubiquity which are so important and can help MS in the enterprise market. In fact, this strategy has worked so well for MS in the past. One of the reasons people purchase WinNT and Word in the enterprise is because people are familiar with Windows and Word at home (and vice versa).

Robotbeat

05-15-2002, 04:58 AM

I feel that my mere prescence was necessary in this obviously Palm vs. PPC thread. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Most people are dumb. That's why they generally buy Palm. I find it funny that Palm has cool techno music in their ads for their m5x5 devices, as if they have it integrated! (and you sort of get that impression)

I hate Palm with all passion. Palm is not getting any higher (or lower down on my hitlist :wink: ) in my world. Who cares that Sony has interfaced an LCD desktop monitor and a camera with the Palm OS?

"Palm Pilots are the Pet Rocks of the portable computing world"-Dan East

05-15-2002, 05:26 AM

Most people are dumb. That's why they generally buy Palm. I find it funny that Palm has cool techno music in their ads for their m5x5 devices, as if they have it integrated! (and you sort of get that impression)Well, emotions and personal opinions have nothing to do with sales in the real world. People buy Palms becasue this is what they see in stores and what their friends and families own. It has nothing to do with dumbness (even if your assertion were true). The cool techo music is part of a consumer-focused marketing campaign. I wish PPC targeted consumers as well.

There is no reason why MS cannot introduce great consumer oriented PPC devices to counter palm.

Robotbeat

05-15-2002, 05:41 AM

You missed the point of my post. My post was almost entirely biased, and that was intended, because that's what I think.

I just found their commercial ironic, that's all.

Rob Alexander

05-15-2002, 12:50 PM

"Despite what you may have heard, the death of Palm OS has been greatly exaggerated. According to the latest industry statistics, Palm OS continues to dominate the handheld market, and it's not just hanging on to existing marketshare, it's growing. Over the last

I've never owned a Palm. Back in the old days, I compared a Palm to the (then) new Velo 1, chose the Velo and have used WinCE based devices since. But I couldn't be more pleased about this news. :) I hope Palm stays healthy and continues to provide serious competition for MS. The last thing ANY PPC enthusiast should want would be for Palm to disappear. You think we're waiting too long for a decent Activesynch now? Just think how long the wait would be if MS were as dominant in the PPC market as they are on the desktop.

indy500099

05-15-2002, 07:15 PM

05-15-2002, 09:49 PM

wanna have pocket pc`s with 50% market share??Well, I have a wish list:

1. Dust Free please!
2. Better Price
3. Long Battery Life
4. Mix the simplicity of Palm OS with the multimedia power of Pocket Pc.
5. Enhanced wireless connectivity.
6. wicked games
And these ones for MS:
7. flood the stores with brand-name consumer models
8. launch a big consumer marketing campaign

indy500099

05-15-2002, 11:38 PM

WICKED GAMES!!!!!!

I never thought on that one, interesting! :twisted:

Timothy Rapson

05-16-2002, 03:05 AM

wanna have pocket pc`s with 50% market share??Well, I have a wish list:

1. Dust Free please!
2. Better Price
3. Long Battery Life
4. Mix the simplicity of Palm OS with the multimedia power of Pocket Pc.
5. Enhanced wireless connectivity.

(too much to ask)

Did, I miss something?, maybe, but I am not a PDA freak, just a simple everyday PDA user.
Anyway, even with Pocket Pc getting 50% or more of the market, I know that my life would still be the same, so no big deal, UNLESS, Bill Gates pays my bills. :D

(caution flame on)
I suppose those things may be big problems, but I had a Mako, I have now had a Mono IPaq for 8 months. IT crashes, locks up, now it has taken to losing files and telling me "unknown card type" So, I bought a new card, three days later it has the same message. I can't pay my hard earned money for the privilege of holding Microsoft and Compaq's hand while they pee on my foot anyway. Next time they should bring a mature product to the dance.

I got a magnificent Sony NR70V last week. I may have some serious problems with it in 6 months, and I will come back here and apologize. But, right now, I am grinning ear to ear with satisfaction. I have wanted to take these pictures, jot these notes, and all the rest it does for the whole 10-15 years since the dreams of truly pocketable computing arose. I think this is it, and MS is not messing with startup Netscape and the other weak victims this time. (flame off)

05-16-2002, 04:52 AM

WICKED GAMES!!!!!!

I never thought on that one, interesting! :twisted:If you want to differentiate PPC from Palm in the consumer segment, you have to take advantage of what PPC has to offer. The 18-34 consumer sgement can be sold on if PPC can demonstrate slick MP3, videos, games, etc.

indy500099

05-16-2002, 09:06 PM

I got a magnificent Sony NR70V last week. I may have some serious problems with it in 6 months, and I will come back here and apologize

You know, I guess when u are satisfied with a product and then the thing is a major dissapointement u have nothing to apologize about. NOT YOUR FAULT!
I have a Jornada 525, (discontinued and at the end of the food chain), and when I tried to upgrade to the 56X series it was a pain. So I stuck with my trusty, dust free, slow as a crawl, BUT WAY MORE RELIABLE Jornada 525. Later I bought a palm m515, right before the NR70V series came out. *sighs*. I think you have a very nice device. I use both the palm and pocket pc. I work in the insurance bussines. I find the palm OS more versatile in my OWN needs and every day use. I use the pocket pc in a different way ( I have a stowaway keyboard and I chat with my wife with MSN mesenger Force when I am away from home).

Wish you luck with your good looking NR70V! :D

NOW, regarding HR.. I guess the Geniuses in MS should listen to your common sense!

PEACE.