Let me tell you a story...

[Jason Dunn]

When I was on the Mobile Experience Tour last year, we had several Pocket PC Fan Fests across the country. The concept of a Fan Fest was simple: it was a Microsoft sponsored event with free food and prizes, but it was only for Pocket PC owners. At every stop we had presentations and a partner area for people who didn't own Pocket PCs, free food, drawings for Pocket PCs, etc. The Fan Fests were parties for people who wanted to hang out with other Pocket PC owners, get shareware software and content from laptop "beam stations" we had set up, get help from the "Pocket PC Doctor" if they had questions, show off their gear and custom modifications, and trade Pocket PC war stories. The goal for me at these events was to make sure that everyone I talked to learned something new about their Pocket PC, or left with something to improve their Pocket PC experience. It was a party for the fans!<br /><br />I always had a great time at every Fan Fest - I got to meet developers like <a href="http://www.pocketinformant.com">Alex Kac from WebIS</a> and <a href="http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/ms-mobile-tour-article.html">Judie Clark</a> from The Gadgeteer. The best part was meeting the people who used their Pocket PCs every day - these were the people who knew the ups and downs of the platform, and it's always fun to show them a trick to make their experience better. Back to the story...<br /><br />We had a Fan Fest in San Francisco last year. Several people who weren't Pocket PC owners wanted to come in, and someone politely turned them away. Anyone who had a Pocket PC was let in. During the evening, I noticed something odd - there was a guy there who worked for Palm (I recognized him from a previous event), and he used a Pocket PC to get in the door then took out his Palm m505 to show people "something better". He wasn't there to share tips with Pocket PC owners, he was there to try and prove that his platform was better. He wasn't there to show Pocket PC owners ways to get more from their device, he was there to "educate" people on how "ignorant" they were being. It had all the tact of going into a Jewish Bar Mitzvah with a slab of bacon, preaching about the virtues of pork.<br /><br />So which one are you? The person coming here to learn more about Pocket PCs and trade some war stories, or the person who has feels they have something to prove and wants to convince everyone that their solution is the "best"?<br /><br />As a footnote, I should add that many months later I talked to that Palm guy one on one, and he's a nice person - but I still have no respect for tactics based on deception or crashing someone's party.

[entropy1980]

Here to learn more about the platform and evangelize about the wonderment of the PPC, I look at it like seminary for the Pocket PC! :D

[disconnected]

I've never been to one of these, although I'd like to, if I'm ever near one.

I'm just curious about the idea behind turning away people that don't already have a PocketPC. If someone is thinking about buying their first PocketPC, there aren't many places (if any) where they can look at all the available models and see the features of the various brands. I would think FanFests would be a great way to advertise. Even when you can find a PocketPC in a store, it's likely to have a dead battery and no software, and the salespeople are not usually very well informed about them.

[Jason Dunn]

I'm just curious about the idea behind turning away people that don't already have a PocketPC.


Well, in the example I gave, there was seminars going all day so there was no lack of information for people who didn't own a Pocket PC. Let's face it though - if Microsoft is going to foot the bill for the whole shindig, they're only going to want to do it for people who bought their product, not any Joe off the street. Seems fair, no? :-)

And just to be clear, I'm definitely not saying that the people who read this site have to own a Pocket PC! :-)

[entropy1980]

And just to be clear, I'm definitely not saying that the people who read this site have to own a Pocket PC! :-)


Maybe you should might cut down on the Java this, Palm that chatter.... hmmmmm :D :lol:

[Don Sorcinelli]

Jason,

When you used the "Bar Mitzvah" analogy, all I could think is that (for as far back as I can remember), there are always people like this. Just replace "PocketPC" and "Palm" with -

- "Windows" and "Unix"
- "Windows" and "Mac"
- "AS/400" and "RS/6000" (especially entertaining when both people were IBM employees)
- "Any religious viewpoint" and "Any OTHER religious viewpoint"
- "Any political viewpoint" and "Any OTHER political viewpoint"
- etc, etc.

I live by a simple credo -
"I respect your opinions. I respect that you believe in your opinions. Now, how about respecting mine?"

Your Palm guy example is one that always "gets under my skin". I have no tolerance whatsoever anymore for "partycrashers", especially when they resort to deception. Not only do they not respect your opinion, they also don't respect your intelligence (yeah - like we're not going to FIGURE YOU OUT, PAL!).

That being said, I am here for the exchange of thoughts, ideas and information relating to the PocketPC community. I am always willing to participate in an intellectual discussion on other things in an appropriate forum (key word - intellectual. "Mine is better than yours because I said so..." doesn't cut it for me any more :wink: ).

DonS

[Jason Dunn]

Maybe you should might cut down on the Java this, Palm that chatter.... hmmmmm :D :lol:


Nah. If you're a sports fan, can you imagine watching a game with your pals and not slagging the opposing team in some fashion? That's part of the fun. :wink:

[JornadaJ]

AAARRRGH! I had a pretty good response typed up and then I lost it!

Here is my outlook. For the most part, I come here to get tips, ideas, and whatever. HOWEVER, I also want to see what is coming up next, and hope that it matches up with my needs that aren't yet met. Let me explain:

Are there things about Palms that I like? Yes. Are there a lot more things that PPC has that Palm probably never will? Absolutely.

I need Word and Excel. I also enjoy having media player. I want it all built in, not as after-market extras. I want the built-in voice recorder, not an add-on cover that is far too fragile.

I like the Jornada mostly because of the styling and the use of CF cards. I liked the sturdiness of the 548, and cringed a bit when the 568 was a bit, well...wimpier. The 548 was built like a tank. Even my old Palm Vx and the metal clamshell case felt more secure than the 568. I am on the go, and I liked the sturdiness of the Palm Vx and the 548.

I work in public affairs. I need the storage capacity to hold speeches, queries that we've responded to, press releases, the works. I can't tell you how many releases I've beamed to reporters in the field, especially in the chaos right before and after a press briefing. I use Excel to keep reporter lists managed for each press briefing. Each briefing on my calendar has a corresponding roster in Excel. I've even had to use Word to give to our speaker, as he lost the paper copy of the speech. Blow it up to a huge font, put it in Landscape and show him the scroll buttons. Crisis solved. Also, I can take a Flash card straight out of a Nikon D-1 camera, put it in my PPC,and beam it to anyone else. The resolution can suffer a bit, but it's still a decent product.

A few things that Palm has been outperforming, for my perspective, is the wireless angle. Even in WAY Upstate NY, my peers who had Palm VII's could access email and some Web content when out of the office. I went car shopping for my now-ex-wife. I took my buddy with me, and he took his Palm VII. I'm still not sure how he did it, but he was able to get to Kelly Blue Book website and check right then and thre how the dealer's prices matched their actual values. (Trust me, in Upstate NY, you better check. Needless to say, it was nice to have that 'technology-driven tactical advantage.') FOr me and my old 548? Cingular, (which was then Cellular One and the ONLY cell alternative), had no way of getting wireless content. It is just now slowly moving in. Why was that? It wasn't that hard for Palm. And now Palm has ANOTHER integrated product out there, and all that MS has come up with is PPC PE. I personally haven't tested it yet, but the articles I've read have it a bit disappointing to me.

Also, Palm seems to be a more stable platform that doesn't crash as often.

However, this still has not yet driven me back into the arms of Palm. But I am still frustrated by PPC on these issues. So I come here for the tips and tricks and all that, but I come here also hoping that someone else wants these same things, and maybe one day we'll actually see them...

[jjjwicks]

Good thing that he didn't try that here in NYC. The people in our group are pretty PPC savy and would have embarrassd him and his pathetic little Palm device. I just came back from a week in LA, and I have to say that the mood there is a bit more relaxed, so I guess they politely listened to him even though he was totally off base. The next time that you run into this guy, tell him to that company loyalty is one thing, baltantly lying about the superiority of Palm devices is another.

[Master O'Mayhem]

There was a similar event at CEBIT. At the German fanfest, The Palm person, Who got in with a pocketpc, started to put Palm stickers on certains peoples' property and one even managed to be put on my back. Needless to say, I took the high road on this one and rather than confront his juvenile behavior, I put the palm sticker in its rightful place. Take a look:

http://www.ppcw.net/images/column/fanfest2002_hannover/fanfest%20035.jpg

[Arne Hess]

- "Windows" and "Unix"
- "Windows" and "Mac"

Sorry Jason, but I have to...

- "USA" and "Canada" :lol:

Well, what's the idea behind your question (something related you asked on the möbius group)? I think most of us here come because to learn from others, in that case from you and the Thoughts team.
However, you will never be able to protect an open site from this kind of persons. :cry:

_________________
Cheers ~ Arne, MS MVP - Mobile Devices
Editor in Chief PPCW.Net
http://www.ppcw.net

[Jason Dunn]

Why am I getting the impression that I wasn't clear enough in my posting? 8O Hmm...

[entropy1980]

Nah. If you're a sports fan, can you imagine watching a game with your pals and not slagging the opposing team in some fashion? That's part of the fun. :wink:


Good point! I am heading over to Palm sites and gonna have a hay day, I haven't done that in a awhile. :D Time for a little payback..... :lol: J/K!

[entropy1980]

Why am I getting the impression that I wasn't clear enough in my posting? 8O Hmm...

No it just got off-topic somewhere around Palm guy talk.... sorry if I contributed to the off-topicness (hey new word!)

[RickP in AZ]

Given how fanatical I am about *my* iPAQ and how painful it was to use my old Palm IIIx while it was away being repaired I think it's obvious what side of the fence I'm on.

I just wish that the PPC Users Group in Phoenix could get off the ground so that we could lure the Fan Fest down here. :-(

RickP in AZ

[Don Sorcinelli]

Fighting temptation... must resist... can't...

Hey - I said I was willing to have "intellectual" discussions... :wink:

So sorry - I really, REALLY tried not to post. Damn my fingers!

DonS
Still bitter Over the Olympic Hockey Finals

[Chubbergott]

Any minute now, the complete works of Shakespeare will be posted.....

[Kilmerr]

Wow. "party crashing" "deception" All just for us...

Party crashing? Interesting terms. People of differing opinions are party crashers? And by keeping them outta the party you think they will be won over? I dunno I take a open market, free approach. Good natured debates all for it. Some one who is only there to "party crash" will hear a good deal of other takes on the other side too. Insofar as the person is polite and not rude then all ok. But the opinions unto themselves are not rude, as you seem to be saying. A matter of perference. And don't tell me you wouldn't want to goto a Palmfest and whip out your Pocket PC new stuff to show off. If you dish it out, you gotta be able to take it.

I dunno I think Fan Fest should be more open...circular preaching to the converted is worthless.

I can't fathom the lack of marketing sense that is going around of late.

Presentations and a partner area for people who didn't own Pocket PCs? They dunno about it at all. How is some elite "corporate presentations and a partner area" gonna help out? A place to SEE and talk with Pocket PC owners might be a BETTER help, yah think? The logic of a non-Pocket PC owner getting much value out of an canned "corporate presentation and a partner area" escapes me. Those things are all high pressure sales kicks anyways.

"We had a Fan Fest in San Francisco last year. Several people who weren't Pocket PC owners wanted to come in, and someone politely turned them away." Wowwooww. GREAT marketing there. Maybe they wanted to SEE what Pocket PC was ALL ABOUT.

I think at some point the enthusiast marketing efforts tapper out, I would open it UP to newcomers, people who DISLIKE the Pocket PC. Gotta goto to where the 'sinners' are. If you want my take I think the MVP's, the enthusiasts, are becoming WAY elitest and everything is backfiring. It's MY party, you can't come in...etc. Blah.

The "sinners" aren't in Church anyways.

[Chubbergott]

Kilmerr,

Unfortinately, criticism of anything PocketPC or Microsoft is childish and naive while putting Palm stickers down toilets and taking photographs of Pam devices in the oven is revenge.

Human nature is the same wherever you go, isn't it?

I don't understand why these people pick on Palm. They must be really insecure about their PocketPC or something. It's not enough that they can play music and videos, edit word documents and excel sheets, they feel that they can only make their candle look brighter by blowing out everybody else's.

Personally, I like this site becauseof the general technology news and the lively way in which it is presented. If someone points out that there are bugs in Symbian as part of a general thought, that's fair game - it has bugs. But come on, some of the stuff here demands a response from the other side of the fence and unadultarated brainwashing will find it. Somebody has to inform the uninformed.

But I'm not aware that this topic was originally anti-Palm..... I can understand why Microsoft wouldn't want non-PocketPC owners on its lorry, but it would seem to me that if they're going to spend lots of pennies on a roadshow, they'd may as well try and get some new converts in to play with the toys. What's the cost of a few cans of pop when they can sell a £500 piece of kit?

[Steven Cedrone]

So which one are you? The person coming here to learn more about Pocket PCs and trade some war stories, or the person who has feels they have something to prove and wants to convince everyone that their solution is the "best"?

I would like to think that the reason most of us come to a Pocket PC site is because that is exactly what we would like to discuss......

And what better site to do it at eh??? :lol:

[Don Sorcinelli]

Kilmerr,

Unfortinately, criticism of anything PocketPC or Microsoft is childish and naive while putting Palm stickers down toilets and taking photographs of Pam devices in the oven is revenge.

If some stranger stuck *ANY* sticker on my back, I think flushing it down the toilet would be a "mild" response...


Human nature is the same wherever you go, isn't it?

My point earlier - exactly. The key is to recognize what is rational discussion and what is "Mine is better than yours. You Suck" discussions (you can also include the phrase "nyah-nyah" in, if you wish :wink: ). That is the difference between intelligence and ignorance...


I don't understand why these people pick on Palm. They must be really insecure about their PocketPC or something. It's not enough that they can play music and videos, edit word documents and excel sheets, they feel that they can only make their candle look brighter by blowing out everybody else's.

Funny, I don't see this thread picking on Palm. Maybe "picking" on a "Palm guy" who happened to use some tactless approach to getting into an event. Or "picking" on people who don't want to discuss - only argue (and I use the term "argue" loosely) or badmouth.

If that is "picking on Palm", I'd say that's a big stretch.

DonS

[Chubbergott]

Funny, I don't see this thread picking on Palm. Maybe "picking" on a "Palm guy" who happened to use some tactless approach to getting into an event. Or "picking" on people who don't want to discuss - only argue (and I use the term "argue" loosely) or badmouth.

:) Yes, you are right.

[Paragon]

I just hope that when we have a Fan Fest in Canada that the Palm guy shows up...eh :D

Myself, I find Pocket PC sites like this to be incredibly helpfull. I try and stay away from the Palm vs. PPC debate it usually ends up with everyone slagging on each other and not much gained....besides they both have their place.

Dave

[Jason Dunn]

I had a hunch this topic would bring you scurrying over here, and you completely and totally missed the point. The post WASN'T about Fan Fests - it's about people who come stomping into communities of like-minded people who want to share their common passions. These people feel they need to "educate" the poor slobs in that community. They feel they need to "correct" the opinions of others. People like you Christopher Coulter. At what point did these people think this site was a generic PDA site like PDABuzz or Brighthand, where flame fests and PDA wars would be welcome?

If there was ever a digital equivalent of a Fan Fest, this site is it. My only wish for this site has ever been to create an environment where Pocket PC enthusiasts can get together, talk about their devices, software, share stories, and generally have a good time. That doesn't seem to be happening as long as certain people frequent this board.


People of differing opinions are party crashers?


There's "differing opinions" (like "I like the E-200 more than the iPAQ") and there's "INSULTING opinions" (like "2002 is horrid, hardware and softwarewise. MS and the OEMs blew it bigtime."). If someone came to your Star Wars theme party and said "Star Wars sucks", wouldn't you consider them a party crasher? How could you NOT?


And by keeping them outta the party you think they will be won over?


Who says you can win everyone over? Is Palm wooing me, trying to win me over? No. I've made my choice for which platform I want to use, and created a site for those who have made the same choice.


And don't tell me you wouldn't want to goto a Palmfest and whip out your Pocket PC new stuff to show off. If you dish it out, you gotta be able to
take it.


How about I DO tell you? :evil: I'd never do something as tasteless and tacky as that, nor would I go to a Palm or Symbian web site and "correct" them with the sheer ARROGANCE that people here show when respoding to our posts. I've never gone to a Palm or Symbian site and made smart-ass responses, nor would I ever. Those people pour their heart and soul into creating and running their sites, and I'd never go there and try to ruin their day by attacking their site, their choice of platforms, and them. I may take jabs at Palm on THIS site, but it's MY site and MY platform to speak from. Going into someone else's back yard and doing that would be underhanded and downright mean.

But doesn't seem to be stopping you and others like you from doing that here!


...circular preaching to the converted is worthless.


Why do you ASSUME it's "preaching"? Why can't people get together to talk and share things?

[Kilmerr]

...but it would seem to me that if they're going to spend lots of pennies on a roadshow, they'd may as well try and get some new converts in to play with the toys. What's the cost of a few cans of pop when they can sell a £500 piece of kit?

That seems basic common sense to me. I dunno why that concept didn't dawn upon Mircosoft. Microsoft is its own worst enemy. Internal politics, strategy 'taxes', safe-zone marketing efforts, weak follow-ups from 2000. And anyone with a Palm is 'crashing the party'. How about a Fan Fest where if you OWN a Pocket PC you are turned away? I am not saying that a 'internal party' is bad unto itself. Just that ONLY 'internal' is bad. To their credit they did do an 'elite' Palm user thing. But the grand path tour and resulting efforts were all to the converted. I think Missionary journeys should grab the unconverted, doncha think? :)

As a example, I brought with me two friends to Chicago...the 'presentational' thing didn't impact them at all. I told them they needed a Pocket PC, but they couldn't see why they wouldn't be let in, as they were there to learn more about it to purchase one. And then they went on the town while I went to the Fest. And now (against all reason and logic) they won't even consider the Pocket PC on accounta that snub. Microsoft and the OEMs lost 2 sales, easy. Possibly forever. And one was an IT Director of a very large insurance firm. Incidently they said that the doorman was very rude about it all.

That doesn't seem to be happening as long as certain people frequent this board.

Ahh so I am a party crasher now too, eh?

[Jason Dunn]

Somebody has to inform the uninformed.

This line says it all, doesn't it? The arrogance of this statement staggers me. WHO are you to come here and "correct" us? Why do you have a Messiah complex whereby you feel you need to save people from their "ignorance"? :roll:

Can't you let people have their opinions and express them without nattering at them like their mother? :?

You're no different than the Palm guy going into the Fan Fest and taking out his Palm. You think you're superior to the rest of the people here, and you're coming to "save us" from our "ignorance". The audacity is stunning. The ego is astounding. The pride is incredible.

I'm out of clever statements now, but I'm glad to see you've finally exposed your true purpose here - "informing the uninformed". 8O

[Hans the Hedgehog]

Well, I love my E-125, but I'm not really the type to try to convert someone else by telling them their choice is worse. Now, if they ask me... :D that's a different story. I guess it comes from a long line of wars from my past, constantly defending (not attacking) my positions (me vs. them): C64 vs Apple, Amiga vs Atari vs Mac, Win vs Mac, etc... I just can't really care too much anymore. However, that said, if you are a platform-yelling-weenie, I might just take the piss out of you, just for fun. :P

I will voice my opinion about what may be good, bad, what I like, don't like, but I'm not a die-hard converter. I love to hate many things in this world...

And, just for the record, I do find it quite tacky whipping out a Palm at a PPC fanfest... on the same note, I think it is a bit rude that they wouldn't let anyone else in, too. Who better to show the wonders of the PPC at a FanFest than to the "competition"? :D I do think that it is fun, constructive, and educational to force others to "discuss" their chosen platform-- especially when someone seems so blinded by it-- but everything has its place and its time.

But at a FanFest or this site, you have to keep things in perspective. If you come here just to attack, then maybe your time would be best spent elsewhere. But without the voice of dissent, where would democracy be?

Happy tapping,
Hans

[Jason Dunn]

How about a Fan Fest where if you OWN a Pocket PC you are turned away?


That's not a Fan Fest, that's called a "shopping mall". :roll: Does the concept of a party for people who already own the device completely escape you Christopher? Why is a "members only" party such a bad thing? They happen all the time in every facet of society...


As a example, I brought with me two friends to Chicago...the 'presentational' thing didn't impact them at all.


If it didn't impact them, then why did they care about going to the Fan Fest? Oh wait, free food and booze...


Incidently they said that the doorman was very rude about it all.


Might have been me. I certainly don't regret turning people away, although I made a point of being extremely polite - up until the point when they got rude with me. Your friends were very arrogant to assume that they rules didn't apply to them.


Ahh so I am a party crasher now too, eh?


You're just figering this out now? You turned black n' bitter several weeks ago and you've been a moaning and bitching all over this board ever since.

[Kilmerr]

I'd never do something as tasteless and tacky as that

Then I guess that exploded Palm, firecracker deal was just all in fun and games? :) To some I think it would be called "tasteless and tacky"...

The point was that even 'party crashers' should be given a pass. And for sure 'soon to be' Fans. You may call a person who doesn't like the Pocket PC as a reason to get defensive. I would look on it as a opportunity to inform them why you think such is not the case. Would a Church get anywhere if they dismissed anyone who said "God Sucks"? Some peoples opinions you can never change, but that doesn't mean one should give up. That's all I meant. Sorry to frame in a rant. And if you think MS paid tons of Marketing monies just for chit chats with their buddies, boy...

very arrogant to assume that they rules didn't apply to them.

They didn't know of the rules. And they couldn't fathom the logic of why they wouldn't be let in given who and what they did. If you call turning away someone who is a newcomer and was unaware of the 'Members Only' tag, good marketing then, well...it was all for chit chatting then. I call it a strikeout from a marketing point of view.

Shopping malls? You can't interact and get the sense of what people can do with Pocket PC's from a Best Buy display case...

And they didn't drive all the way to Chicago JUST for free food and booze. Gawd. They were IT Directors. You just can't see it can you? Members only is not a bad idea, but ONLY Members only seems a boneheaded marketing move. That being my point. If MS was such a sticker for the Members Only kick, they should have made these VIPs members right then and there.

Black n' bitter? I dunno the rampant senseless cheerleading and the sheer economic figures pulp and all the 'research for hire' and all the myriad of Pocket PC 2002 problems, and the 'more is always better' logic got to me after awhile. But I still tow the "party line" for the most part. Moaning and bitching? I wouldn't frame it in those terms, per se. But if lamenting the failures of Pocket PC 2002 is "moaning and bitching" so be it. I call it as I see it. And I am still a bigtime Fan. Just I think the problems have reached a critical mass.

[Don Sorcinelli]

...And, just for the record, I do find it quite tacky whipping out a Palm at a PPC fanfest...

"Whipping out the Palm"... Looks like a new phrase to describe an old issue... :lol:

But seriously, folks -
It's amazing - somehow, someone who isn't invited to an event but still sneaks in and imposes isn't the issue. Choosing who you do or don't care to invite is, though. People being sick and tired of the same old paranoid defense mechanisms and responses isn't the issue. "Informing the uniformed" is, though.

Guess it's the same "logic" that rationalizes (please use an extremely sarcastic tone with the word "rationalizes" - I don't want my point lost, you know) "my rant is far superior to your logic", and "my fiction CLEARLY outweighs your fact". Ahh, to be young and delusional again... :twisted:

DonS

[Jason Dunn]

Then I guess that exploded Palm, firecracker deal was just all in fun and games?


I had ZERO to do with that other than taking a photo once it was all said and done. But guess what Christopher? I didn't go to a Palm site and show it off. I didn't go into a Palm newsgroup and say "Look what we did to your precious Palm!". I posted it to a POCKET PC web site. Do you know anything about sports Christopher? When you get together with your buddies to watch a game, you don't cheer for both teams - you want one to win and one to lose. Can you grasp that? I don't even really care about Palm "losing" - I just want the Pocket PC to win more market share so the solutions and software will be made for it instead of it being that "other PDA". I'd be happy with 50% market share. :P


And if you think MS paid tons of Marketing monies just for chit chats, boy...


Chris, what on earth would you know about Pocket PC marketing? I spent ten weeks living and breathing Pocket PC Marketing on that tour, so I'd gladly pit my knowledge of events and motivations against yours anyday. You just came to the event, ate some stuff, then left. Why do you pretend to know things you don't? Fan Fests are partially to reward and motivate the Pocket PC evangelists, the early adopters. They're also for networking, training to a degree (because they always leave with cool stuff and new knowledge), and of course FUN. Do you have any idea how much a Fan Fest costs, and how much MORE it would cost if it was just an "open door" policy? Use some common sense man - everyone has budget limits, even Derek.

You keep clinging to the church analogy, so let me explain it to you using your own example and perhaps you'll understand: if a church is going to evangelize to people, they first train and equip their people to go evangelize. That's partially what a Fan Fest is for. You don't invite the "un-saved" people to the evangelism training - what would they get out of it? Nothing.

The "church service" with the "preaching" was the 2 hour Enterprise presentation during the day and the one hour "Pocket PC show" during the evening where Derek and Beth gave presentations. The "faithful" who already owned Pocket PCs didn't often come to the latter presentations because they're already "saved". Makes sense?

Why am I even wasting my time on this? It's like arguing with a pile of mud. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

They didn't know of the rules.


You just said you told them. Make up your mind. :?


Members only is not a bad idea, but ONLY Members only seems a boneheaded marketing move.


Well guess what Christopher, you're not the marketing director. :lol:

[Ed Hansberry]

Well guess what Christopher, you're not the marketing director. :lol:


Jason,

A couple of thoughts come to mind here.

"Don't argue with a fool. People won't be able to tell the difference."
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!"

:wink:

[Kilmerr]

So no money for an 'open door'? But eternal money for parties with the evangelists? No wonder I am not a Marketing Director. I thot winning new converts was the whole point of Marketing, not just partying with evangelist friends, for training and fun. At what point is the training over and the 'do' kicks in?

And one thing I do know...the IT Director of the largest insurance companies in the world was turned away. They went RIM, not totally on account of Chicago, but that was a factor. I guess I would fail as a Marketing guy, as I would focus on new users...I just think Marketing should ALSO focus on people OUTSIDE of User Groups and Evangelist types. Novel idea, eh? That's not to discount Evangelist marketing no. But at some point it reaches fill point, and then things need to expand.

The mini-tour later was still all Pocket PC User Group directed and lead.

Preaching doesn't win as many converts as direct interaction...that being my take. A Sales pitch doesn't win as much as a "Fan Fest" format concept. See things in action, talk and interact and see how things work. Just everyone likes to party and chit chat, and slicing out new converts cause it is too expensive seems crazy.

They didn't know the rules per a indirect invite, I told them, but they still didn't see the logic of why they would be turned away, and decided to ask. They are hardly arrogant. Don't twist my words.

And the problem with some 'convert'eds' is that they eternally wrap themselves with others of like mind and dismiss anyone who thinks different or is a 'party crasher'. But I guess that is all a "pile of mud".

[Brad Adrian]

And one thing I do know...the IT Director of the largest insurance companies in the world was turned away.

Then it was pretty silly to bring him to a party that had as its sole theme the sharing of detailed, geeky Pocket PC tips and tricks, wasn't it? And even sillier that a major IT guy would make a platform decision based on whether or not he was invited to a party.

[Paragon]

Well, I think I have come to a conclusion.... I don't think Palm users should be allowed in. Can you imagine Palm and PPC users together in the same room. I would want to be the guy with the pepper spray.... supersized

Dave

[Ed Hansberry]

I thot winning new converts was the whole point
No, the whole point was to gather fans of the PPC and let them get together with other fans and people from MS. It wasn't a user group meeting. It was a fan fest. Huge difference.

[entropy1980]

That's why it's called the Fan Fest not New User or Palm User who dislikes Pocket PC Fest. There are other avenues for people unfamiliar with the platform to attend , heck and Jason correct me if I am wrong, when the Fan Fest was here in L.A. for the Mobile Experience tour, they brought the L.A. Palm User group in Palms and all to show them what a Pocket PC could do and what it was all about! The point of the fan fest is thank us for buying, supporting, and using Pocket PC's.

[Daniel]

Ok, the amount of vitriol in this thread is getting ridiculous. Can we all just take it down a level please?

Firstly I will say that Christopher (Kilmerr), I think that you have a valid point in suggesting that MS should perhaps focus more on non-PPC users, but the FanFest is not that forum. The FanFests, if I understand them correctly, are purely for people that are "Fans" of the PPC platform. This means that the FanFests are private parties and your invitation is your PPC. Suggesting that MS let anyone into these would really defeat the purpose of having them. It seems to me that somewhere like CeBit would be a better match to what you're talking about.
I also agree with Jason that there is a very big difference between saying some disparaging things about Palm on PPC site than saying them on a Palm site. All of the instances that Christopher (Kilmerr) pointed to were examples of the former. I think that this is fine. I totally agree that coming onto a targeted site (like this) and making only negative remarks about the topic of the site is wrong. You are a troll.
I would also take Christopher (Kilmerr) to task on his intimation that there is nothing said about the negative aspects of PPC on this site. That is totally untrue. There have been a number of threads on this site with regards to the defficiencies of the PPC platform. It is incorrect to charaterise this particular site as one eyed. The FanFests are meant to be a targeted event and as such also should be treaded as looking for positive and addressing negatives where necessary. There is nothing wrong with this.
I personally have commented on a number of occasions about problems with PPC, and this has resulted (generally) in or been part of a rational discussion.
If you are only willing to make negative remarks about something, that's fine, but you should at least try to be constructive.
Believing that every event should be open to everyone is, in my opinion, totally flawed. I'm not suggesting that was what Christopher (Kilmerr) was saying, but this is where I think the logic leads.

Personally I think that the Palm guy sneaking into the PPC event was wrong. It's unethical and just plain rude. I would feel exactly the same about a PPC person doing this at a Palm event, the sword cuts both ways.

Daniel

[marlof]

No wonder I am not a Marketing Director. I thot winning new converts was the whole point of Marketing, not just partying with evangelist friends, for training and fun. At what point is the training over and the 'do' kicks in?

Throwing a party where your Pocket PC is the entrance ticket is a really good post sales marketing initiative in my opinion. When the Pocket PC users that went to the FanFest walks out of the door, he feels good about the product, talks to other people about it, they might buy, he might be a returning customer etc. It's fun and a good marketing move at the same time.

When the Pocket PC marketing team throws a party for Pocket PC users, it's plain silly to expect it to be a sales pitch to convert non Pocket PC users. You may not understand the concept, but that doesn't mean the concept is therefor strange....

And one thing I do know...the IT Director of the largest insurance companies in the world was turned away. They went RIM, not totally on account of Chicago, but that was a factor'

So you actually think that when the largest insurance company in the world chooses RIM over Pocket PC ( two entirely different beasts!) they make their decision on the door policy of a Pocket PC FanFest? If that were even partly true, I'd be hiring a new IT director if I were that company.

I guess I would fail as a Marketing guy, as I would focus on new users...I just think Marketing should ALSO focus on people OUTSIDE of User Groups and Evangelist types. Novel idea, eh? That's not to discount Evangelist marketing no. But at some point it reaches fill point, and then things need to expand.

Yes, in my opinion you'd fail, and I don't think I'd hire you. Because you seem to have a one trick mind. It's not one or the other, marketing can be pre and post sales at the same time. And that is exactly what MS marketing is about. You think it's just about evangelists? Or about User Groups? FanFests? Tours? On enthusiast sites like this, these topics get the attention, as they're targeted at us. But next to those there are way more marketing initiatives. May be you're not aware of all of them as you're not the target for all types of marketing, but they do exist.

[fundmgr90210]

Oh, Dunne, Dunne, Dunne... You're always good for a laugh. A couple quick points this thread illustrates:

1) When a poster disagrees with you (just a disagreement, nothing more) on something you feel so very passionately about (and feeling that passionate towards PPC and MS the way you do is a little scary) you respond by attacking them personally. Your childish bile is all over this thread;

2) You clearly posted this thread to air some dirty laundry with someone who you think broke from you're camp;

3) You seem to want this perfect world (well, perfect for you at least) in which you attack Palm, but no one here is allowed to respond or even attack PPC. As a "fan site" as you call it, you somehow think you're immune to this. You find yourself in one of these flame battles, on average, once a month or so. I used to think you understood all too well what you're doing (I didn't think anyone could have your apparent unique combination of stupidity, arrogance, and immaturity). Now I think you really are that naive;

I can never quite figure out why you and the other Wonder Tool (Hansberry) seem to be on a mission? The best part of it though is that you're both failing, miserably. PPC is stagnant and I don't think MS even really cares about the plaftform that much anymore. I hear more and more rumblings lately about what a P.O.S. PPC 2002 is from PPC users themselves (on this board no less). Pocket Word's a joke. Bill Gates cares about Tablet PC, PPC is an afterthought for him. The list goes on. Meanwhile, the Zaurus and the upcoming Clie are getting all the "geek buzz" and OS 5.0 is right around the corner. Are you still clinging to that "Palm will be out of business by October 2002" prediction? What's going to happen you realize you backed the wrong horse?

[Kilmerr]

So you actually think that when the largest insurance company in the world chooses RIM over Pocket PC ( two entirely different beasts!) they make their decision on the door policy of a Pocket PC FanFest? If that were even partly true, I'd be hiring a new IT director if I were that company.

They wanted wireless, Pocket PC ain't in that space.

I know this person...that wasn't the only factor (I said as much), but being treated rude isn't silly. I dunno he's just the nicest guy. I never said it was logical or rational, just he's the most easy-going guy ever and being rebuffed when he thot he was invited was interesting. A mixup sure. But he sure doesn't think it was silly.

I just think that the FanFest reward system was pitched in the wrong way. Too many people thot it was a event to learn about Pocket PCs. The perception I got. A hot rod fest, doesn't require you to own one to be there...etc.

But that was just making a point per the overall concept. It got outta hand per Jason's ranting.

I am sure other marketing avenues are there. My point was simply more inclusive. I wouldn't have turned non-Pocket PC users away, but that's just me. And I would set up general events for non-Pocket PC users. But this is all an theory-styled discussion.

Geepers, a simple disagreement in the abstract. And it spawns and morphs into a personal attack. Sorry. I am done with this thread.

[Don Sorcinelli]

Nice to see fundmgr90210 (uh, huh) accuse someone of "childish bile" in one sentence, then call someone a "Wonder Tool" later.

"Wonder Tool" - Haven't heard that deep thought in a while. But, then again, I don't hang with grade schoolers.

Biggest disappointment in fundmgr90210's thread - I eagerly read the entire thread, tingling with anticipation at the hope of seeing the phrases "butt munch" or "booger head" appear. Imagine my disappointment... :(

[Don't Panic!]

Does this mean Chris doesn't write for PocketPC.com anymore? Boston was fun altough Beth wasn't there. I was Club PocketPC 8O You know the guy with Don't Panic! in warm friendly colors on the case of his E-125. I thought it was the coolest thing any company had ever done. A party for people who had bought PocketPC's. I'm glad you didn't put me on the door in Boston, There definitely would have been PALM related incidents. I sure miss the old system of posting responses. I was sugarbear back then and the tone was a lot calmer.

Don't Panic!
Bobby

[fundmgr90210]

Nice to see fundmgr90210 (uh, huh) accuse someone of "childish bile" in one sentence, then call someone a "Wonder Tool" later.

"Wonder Tool" - Haven't heard that deep thought in a while. But, then again, I don't hang with grade schoolers.

Biggest disappointment in fundmgr90210's thread - I eagerly read the entire thread, tingling with anticipation at the hope of seeing the phrases "butt munch" or "booger head" appear. Imagine my disappointment... :(


Agreed, but since Dunne brought it down to that level, I figured we might as well dispense with the pretense and have some fun. Worst part about him is that he DOESN'T think he's that immature. Just because you think I am, doesn't mean he isn't.

[Daniel]

fundmgr90210 = Troll

Seriously, your first post is this? You really can't expect to initiate some kind of serious discussion of issues when you approach them like this.

I have agreed and disagreed with Jason before, does anyone remember the "Any OS on PPC hardware" discussion. It got a little agrumentative, but that's life. None of those comments were ever deleted or edited. Nor have any in this thread. So saying that Jason is jumping on dissenters is true, but he isn't silencing anyone, that is a very important distinction.

I think you guys need to approach what you see as immature (from Jason) with maturity, otherwise you're not doing anything constructive.

Daniel

[Paragon]

Well, this has all turned pretty ugly. Not surprisingly! Let me see if I have this right... Jason you put up a "thought" designed to draw Kilmerr out. Then when he makes remarks that differ from your opinion you take personal shots at him. Then when you are thru the rest of your team gets to have a go at him. I don't know what past you guys have, and I can't say that I agree with any or all of what he said but I do think it is pretty discraceful of the whole 'team' to act like this. I've always thought you guys were pretty cool.... but after tonight I'm not so sure anymore.. Marlof I didn't think I would ever see you dragged into something like this. I was always impressed with the way you handled yourself back in your Brighthand days. I think it will be a while before anyone ever really states their opinion here again for fear of being pounced on.

This isn't Pocket PC evangelism. We are supposed to be bringing people into the fold not pushing them away.

Dave

[Ed Hansberry]

I don't think there was any pouncing. Chris totally missed the point of the thread and totally missed the point of the fanfest. Many of his points were valid..... in another thread, about something else.

Chris.... you are in a helicopter. :wink: (http://jokes.empstudios.com/computers/mstech.html)

[Don't Panic!]

Yeah, I didn't see the pounce either Dave. Great joke Ed. Does Chris still write for PocketPC.Com? for that matter doeas anybody still write for PocketPC.com? Those articles are getting old.

Don't Panic!
Bobby

[QYV]

I wanted to make the following reply to this thread this morning but didn't:

"Three words: Chubbergott, Kilmerr, Scott R."

That was before Chubbergott and Kilmerr had even posted. Hmmm...

[fundmgr90210]

Yeah, I didn't see the pounce either Dave.


What thread are you reading? Is it the same one in which Hansberry called him a 'fool' and an 'idiot'? This is what they do to someone that decides they're not down with the PPC zealotry thing. Ask Steve Bush from Brighthand.

Dunne, Hansberry, Marlof...you all look very small. Looks to me like Coulter got the better of all of you :)

[Don't Panic!]

Those quotes were just good advice IMHO. But if you think that Kilmerr resembles those remarks, so be it. This is no fun anymore, Trolls are to easy. :roll:

Don't Panic!
Bobby

[Hans the Hedgehog]

I had a hunch this topic would bring you scurrying over here, and you completely and totally missed the point. The post WASN'T about Fan Fests - it's about people who come stomping into communities of like-minded people who want to share their common passions. These people feel they need to "educate" the poor slobs in that community. They feel they need to "correct" the opinions of others. People like you Christopher Coulter. At what point did these people think this site was a generic PDA site like PDABuzz or Brighthand, where flame fests and PDA wars would be welcome?

If there was ever a digital equivalent of a Fan Fest, this site is it. My only wish for this site has ever been to create an environment where Pocket PC enthusiasts can get together, talk about their devices, software, share stories, and generally have a good time. That doesn't seem to be happening as long as certain people frequent this board.


Like it or not, "Don't Panic", Jason did let loose on Kilmerr first... I'm not defending Kilmerr, I think he was off-topic, but isn't that the way any discussion goes? And, Quick-to-slap-and-scold-Ed sure didn't help matters, either. I've seen EdH's tactics on other sites, and he always brings down a conversation to a bitter, biting level.

But this topic was asking for it. Jason as much as admits it in the beginning of the above quote. And, I'm sorry, Jason, but you do run a popular site... with popularity comes both positive and negative beings with opinions. I frequent other sites and they have their fair share of trolls, flames, arguments, and all that... it is the nature of the beast.

Well, Jason, as per your quote, I'm sure some do think that it is a somewhat general PDA site when they see posts on Palm, PPC Phone Edition, and the such. Anyways, big shock that people see what they want, think what they want, and post what they want. You do, and so does your Team. Funny what happens, the amount of whinging that goes on when someone disagrees.

Look, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes and run a site like this. I think the PPC crew does a fantastic job with the site, even when one of the staff gets snippy. I don't know your dirty laundry with Chris. I remember when he came, and when he left, but I didn't pay much attention. But, for you own blood pressure, let it slide. And for ours, don't bait him so.

It's too bad this thread went so ugly... reminds me of the religious Brighthand days-- nothing but attacks, nothing but hate. Too bad it happened here.

Happy tapping,
Hans

[Steven Cedrone]

fundmgr90210 troll: If your gonna attack the guy, at least spell his name correctly........

Oh, Dunne, Dunne, Dunne... You're always good for a laugh

[fundmgr90210]

You don't invite the "un-saved" people to the evangelism training - what would they get out of it? Nothing.

The "church service" with the "preaching" was the 2 hour Enterprise presentation during the day and the one hour "Pocket PC show" during the evening where Derek and Beth gave presentations. The "faithful" who already owned Pocket PCs didn't often come to the latter presentations because they're already "saved". Makes sense?

Why am I even wasting my time on this? It's like arguing with a pile of mud. :roll:


So, is it safe to say that your point in this thread is to cast out the non-believers? Keep marginalizing yourself and those like you. I love it.

[Aceze]

I dont like wading into flame wars for the sake of it - but I dont think this topic has any real value left. I say lock the thread, let it die, and move on to more useful discussions.

People will see what they want to see, and say what they want to say. The best you can hope for is for reasonable people to argue reasonably - there will always be people who will argue for the sack of rhetoric.

Aceze

[Daniel]

Yes, but then Jason or whoever did it would be inviting the "draconian cencorship" call from all the people that want to continue this kind of crap.

A rock and a hard place. I certainly vote for it to be shut down. It's a waste of space and is going nowhere for a number of reasons (No, I'm not pointing the finger, I don't have enough).

Daniel

[Jason Dunn]

Well, a few hours away from the computer can bring about some perspective. What a complete and utter waste of time this whole thread has become. I sincerely apologize to everyone who had to suffer through my stupidity and the stupidity of others. :?

First things first: I did not create this thread to "draw" Killmer out. Yes, I wrote it with him in mind, along with Chubbergot and a few others. I have this [obviously] naive hope of running a web site about Pocket PCs and having people who love their Pocket PCs read it and post to it. That's it - that's all I want.

I was hoping the people who come to this site that hate Pocket PCs would read the posting and realize that they don't do anything but sow seeds of discord in this community and they'd find a more appropriate place to do so. There are countless "PDA Neutral" sites out there that invite this sort of warring, but I never, ever wanted this site to be it. Yes, I was truly hoping that the people who come to this site to "correct" me and others who like the Pocket PC would leave. I thought that the example I gave of the Fan Fest would hold up the mirror and they'd see they're like the Palm guy taking out his Palm in the middle of a Pocket PC party...a party crasher.

Is it so wrong to want to have "Pocket PC party site?". What's wrong with that concept? You have all sorts of "hard hitting PDA news sites" - is it so bad to have a Pocket PC cheerleader site? Why do some people want to turn this site into something it's not? Still not something I understand. :oops:

Running a community isn't easy. :? In many ways, I prefer having an audience to a community - when people have a platform to talk back, they tend to abuse it. It's funny how I've never, ever gotten a personal flame email based on what I've said on this site, yet flame posts never end. No one feels strongly enough to flame me privately - they want the roasting to be a public spectacle. Which begs the question as to how important the issues is anyway...

That about ends it for me. Today I was considering shutting down the forums and walking away - there's so much ugliness today, and I contributed so much to it, which made me feel even worse. That response would be over reacting of course, so the forums aren't going anywhere, but I've taken some discussions into private email and I hope, I really hope, that this won't happen again for a long, long time.

For the record I believe "fundmgr90210" to be the same guy who has been trolling this site for almost a year. I have dozens of nasty posts back from our anonymous Greymatter days, and when we first start up this new phpBB site, he created accounts with such witty names as "jason is a tool" and "ed is a fag". I leave it to you to look at his posts and decide how much value to assign to them. I'm not going to delete them, or his account, because I'm guilty of as much stupidity on this thread as he is so we'll call it a draw. :roll: fundmgr90210, you ARE welcome here, even if you disagree with me, as long as your disagreements don't turn into rant-filled flames without a point. I know we're both capable of asinine behaviour, so let's try something different for a change, shall we?

[Chubbergott]

You wrote it with me in mind? Shucks!

I wasn't even going to post to this topic until it got into the usual double-talk and, not knowing Kilmerr (who posted later), thought your sudden nuking of the wee poster was a little unfair. If you're suggesting I've never posted anything positive or enquisitiver, then I am offended.

We've been over and over the topic of disagreement so often both publicly and privately and I really don't want to keep re-explaining everything, but as as long as you keep repeating the allegations, I will keep repeating the explanations.


There's "differing opinions" (like "I like the E-200 more than the iPAQ") and there's "INSULTING opinions" (like "2002 is horrid, hardware and softwarewise. MS and the OEMs blew it bigtime.").

What's so insulting about that? What I'd consider insulting is "PPC users are fools who walk with geese and cows of innumerable frogs". The quote "2002 is horrid, hardware and softwarewise. MS and the OEMs blew it bigtime" is a valid statement that has been made by current PPC owners, not me.

I do not hate PocketPC! I have recommended it to people, even recently!

I respond to mindless statements where I feel I can offer an otherwise view. And please note, I don't think I've ever said 'PocketPC sucks' and 'Microsoft is the devil'. You are portraying me as a single minded person who can only see things Symbian's way - but you are oh so wrong (and you should know that).

The quote you got het-up about, where I said 'inform the uninformed' should have has a winking smiley next to it, sorry.

[Don't Panic!]

[snip] I have this [obviously] naive hope of running a web site about Pocket PCs and having people who love their Pocket PCs read it and post to it. That's it - that's all I want. [snip]
All Right Jason! I hoped you would feel that way. Keep that attitude and these Front Page Forum trolls will just fade away.

Don't Panic!
Bobby

[Daniel]

Chubbergott: I'm sure you have a valid point, but maybe you should take the discussion with Jason to a private thread or something? I don't mean that you shouldn't have the right of reply or anything, but none of this (including Jason mentioning you by username) really helps.

I personally look at this sort of thing (from Jason) this way, Jason is a very passionate (there's a link to another PPC site ;)) PPC user. That's why he has this site and is an MS MVP. You have to expect that he'll be passionate about critisism of one of the things he loves most (Wife comes first of course!).
You should try thinking of it like that, rather than him being a "big bad moderator" and trying to take away your first amendment rights or something.
A few people have had run ins with Jason and his passion, including me, but as I said before he never censors people unless there is porography involved (old site), so stop yout whinging! ;)

Can we all please move on and/or get therapy?

Daniel

[JDF]

I have read all the comments and come to many conclusions but I would just like to say that:
Jason, I love your site! :D
Don't bother with the trolls!
Have they won if no one answer them?.. I think not.
You have thousands of loyal readers that love PPC so what they say (trolls) doesn’t really matter anyway. Thanks for a great site I read it every day.

Regards
JDF

[JDF]

Wopsidasy... did I say "thousands of loyal readers" 8O I meant hundreds! Or at least a couple... anyway.. the ones that do read the site frequently are more or less loyal. :lol:

[Paragon]

Ok guys..... trolling season must be almost over. Jason has stated his apology and how stupid he is :D (Sorry Jason couldn't let that pass.) It is not an easy thing to do, to publicly apologize. I think when someone does it they deserve a lot of credit.


I think a good way to judge a persons character is if they are willing an able to do so....

Dave

[jlc, just jlc]

Personally, I view what Palm did as no more than normal marketting - no different than MS inviting Palm evangelists to Redmond and giving them free PocketPCs in an attempt to get them to convert and begin praising their platform. MS established the rules - anyone with a PocketPC gets in - and should live with the results. It's really no different from any other form of ambush marketting. The best thing for MS to do is to actually welcome such tactics - and have well thoughout responses to show who their product "can do that."

Would you advocate MS not sending reps to Palm developer conferences, and not trying to get developers at those conferences interested in developing for the PPC?

[Hans the Hedgehog]

Would you advocate MS not sending reps to Palm developer conferences, and not trying to get developers at those conferences interested in developing for the PPC?


They did it. Doesn't anyone remember that during PalmSource in December 2000, Microsoft invited 30 of the top Palm Developers to a "meeting" to convince them to port their apps to PPC. Not before or after, but right during the conference. Sure, they didn't sneak in and whip out a copy of the dev tools and say, "Hey, can your dev tools do this." But the timing was still designed to stir things up. Microsoft could have easily done this before or after Palmsource, just as they did when they invited the Palm webmasters to Redmond.

Happy Tapping,
Hans