Some Forum Guidelines

[Jason Dunn]

I wanted to publicly state a few policies that we use on this site. By nature I'm not a very legalistic person, and I prefer to let ideas and discussions flow where they may, but there are some exceptions to this and I'm forced to address because of a few people. So, for the record, here are some guidelines for this site so everyone knows where we stand:<br /><br /><i><b><span>Spamming</span></b></i> - If you have a product, site, or service, please use the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=31">announcement forum</a> for your advertisements. You don't need to be registered to use that forum. Posts deemed to be of a commercial nature will be moved to this forum. Spamming can be of a more subtle variety - if you're a web site owner and you decide to post content from your site (photos, articles, etc.) to a discussion thread, that's spamming. You're welcome to express your opinions on the thread, and include an URL with your thoughts, but posting an URL and nothing else is also spamming. Your job is to provide content on your own site, not on ours. If it's an article or something interesting, send it to us and we'll consider it for front-page posting. Posts that cross the line will be deleted.<br /><br /><i><span><b>Signatures</b></span></i> - Related to spamming, sigs are provided as a way for people to learn more about you, for you to make a statement with a quote, etc. I have zero problem with people putting URLs in their sig - in fact I encourage it - but there's a fine line between giving people an URL to click on and turning your sig into an advertisement. Mazingo subscription URLs, affiliate shopping links, and any sort of commercial content simply shouldn't be there. I really don't want to become a "sig cop", policing signatures. I'd ask that you respect this guideline. I don't want to turn into a USENET rule-thumper and say "three lines only", so just use your good judgment. Is your sig longer than most of your posts? Time to trim it. Are you putting graphics in your sig that are distracting others from the content of the discussion? Re-think using graphics. Are you listing off every PDA you've ever owned? Ask yourself why. In many cases, it makes more sense to simply link to a personal home page that has all of the information you're trying to cram into your sig. Remember that sigs support HTML, so don't put full URLs in your sign - make them into hyperlinks. Keep your sigs tidy and minimal, and we'll all be happy. :D <br /><br /><i><span><b>Language</b></span></i> - this is a PG-rated site. If you can't say it on regular television (HBO doesn't count folks!), don't say it here. There are other, more eloquent ways to express yourself. :-)<br /><br /><i><b><span>Flaming</span></b></i> - as someone who has flamed and been flamed, many, many times, I can very easily see the difference between some good-natured smackdowns and messages that are simply mean. The heat of passion can make you say stupid things. If you don't have the sense to go delete your own post, one of us may do it for you. If you disagree with someone, explain why without attacking them. Disagreements are fine - insulting behaviour is not. There's also an element of off-topic-ness here - the worst thing that can happen to a great, useful discussion thread is when people (myself included) drag it down to a slug-fest. That thread quickly becomes ruined and useless to readers - I don't want to see that happen. Use the private messaging feature if you want to communicate directly with another person - why does the whole board need to see you vent your spleen? Also, you can't hide behind smiley-face emoticons - if you're saying something mean to another person, a smiley face doesn't hide your attack. If you have something to say about a TOPIC, do so without attacking the PERSON.<br /><br /><i><span><b>Topic Choice</b></span></i> - Remember that is a Pocket PC site, not a generic "PDA Neutral" site. PDA neutral sites are fine and good, but this is not one of them. :D We're pro-Pocket PC, pro-Smartphone 2002, and more or less supportive of what Microsoft is doing in this space. You want to discuss the new Handspring Treo? This isn't your site. You want to talk about weight loss pills? Use the Off Topic forum. You want to wallow in the glory of everything that is the Pocket PC? This is your site. :wink: <br /><br />Again, I can't express this strongly enough, <i>I don't want to police this site</i>. I don't want to feel like I have to comb through every post looking for "bad stuff". Today I had to delete my first real post by another reader, and I really disliked doing it. For the most part, every one of you is great - I love reading your thoughts on things, even if they don't always jive with mine. I want to give you all a forum to express your thoughts on everything Pocket PC, but there's no joy in this for me if this community turns into something I don't want to be a part of. Please respect the guidelines I've outlined above - thank you. If you don't want to, please go start your own site and run it the way you want to.<br /><br />I thought this quote was quite apt: "Shout your hatred for all things "me" from the rooftops, but don't do it on my damn roof." I've had some people say to me "If you're going to provide a public forum for discussion, expect people to disagree with you." That's all well and good, but the guy who owns a coffee shop where people sit and chat probably doesn't expect to have people come up and yell at him...who wants to do that for a living? There's no perfect way to "run" a community, but I'm doing my best and I hope you'll stick around for a long time to come.

[Jason Dunn]

Know what kills me about this? I wasted hours today writing this, exchanging messages with the user who's post I deleted, trying to sort it all out...instead of working on the CeBit report that I want to get out there. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME THIS IS!

:evil: :evil: :evil:

[gmoehl]

:!: Every segment of society has a code of rules. That is how NIMBY (not in my back yard) was created.

-Geoffrey

[CoffeeKid]

Sounds like you've been reading Derek's book, Jason! :)

Seriously though, it's good to post these groundrules. You've made forums increadibly easy to post to, so it needs to have some groundrules in place.

Of course, there's always going to be a few people who, for lack of all social graces, will say things in a forum that they wouldn't dream of saying to your face, simply because, well, it's not in their character or "intestitinal fortitude" to do.

There's a rule I have followed in Usenet, in online forums, in discussion groups, and in even my own rants on my various sites pretty much since I got on the Internet back in 1994. It is a simple rule, but it is also a rule that I believe would probably eliminate maybe 75% or more of the flames you see online:

Don't ever type anything in an online forum you wouldn't say to the person's face.

That's it. Now some people who love to flame or bait will claim that what they write would be the same for them in person or up front, but I don't believe it for a second. Do you really think the idiots who were flaming Chris up and down for trying to make a living from his shared expertise would even have the cahonas to say some of the things they said if he was standing next to them? No - chances are they'd be yearning for their dark basements and the safety their solitude apparently gave them.

The Internet has created far too many "keyboard warriors". People who will fly off at the handle, flame as easy as breathing, without care or concerns about the consequences ... because to them, there is no care or concern. There is only this feeling of (false) power. Something they can't get in real life.

Good luck with it Jason. I too hope you don't end up having to police these forums. So far I've been pretty lucky with mine - but I did follow some stealth rules from Powazek's book :)

[Steven Cedrone]

Maybe you should include a policy statement during the registration process. You could also post a link to it at the top of the page (next to "contact")........

[Tycho Morgan]

I moderate instinctibly, and take an intresting aproach to the whole idea so I'd like to share some thoughts about this.

I'm an operator in 3 of 4 IRC Undernet Channels, moderator\leader of several Yahoo Group comunites, including a few that are reasonably succesful. I've also particapated in a domber of different typce of comunites, from writing related groups, to web design related groups, and obviously mobile technology related forms. Here's what I've noticed.

Moderators must be firm. if you make a decision, stick to it This means that you must think your actions out carefully and possibly consult others befor making a decision, but once that has been done, you have to be firm. If you're week, the dweebish counter productive people pick on you and huge flame wars result, if you're firm but reasonable in your actions the dweebish people just leave and your comunity is stronger because of it.

Also the worst thing you can do as a moderator is particapate too much in your own comunity, and be overly public about moderation techniques. People come to your comunity to talk to eachother, not to listen to you (that's why you have an email address), you might be super cool, but it gets really old when you reply to every single message, (espicaly in a support form). Also overuse of moderator privlidges such as stickys, moving threads (espicaly when you leave a marker), annoucnements, and so forth, gets old and stupid. We know you are there, we know you are paying your own good money on the forms, we know you are reading everything, but is it really neccessary to be the focus of discussion. For instance, while Jason et al were away at mobus, I watched to form like a hawk, I read every new thing and responded to more than I usualy would, but still I responded to only a fraction of the trafic. People still talked, and Pocket PC thoughts didn't burn. There was one post that I might have deleted, but after consulting with a random comunity member ;) and thinking about it for a few moments, I left it, responded firmly and went on. All was well

I'm not saying you should try to piss people off or not tell them about the rules, but people aren't stupid, you don't have to constatnly remind them of the rules, but if you try too hard to be a moderator then you will drive some people, including me, away.

And no, I'm not refering to Jason, the other Mods, or my self in either of the above descriptions. One is the general attitude of the Greaymatter Forms since Noah gave the forms away. THe other is a combo of visor central and the latest greymatter forms. I'll leave you to draw your on conclusions.

Cheers,
Sam

[William]

This is also a good read about a community that completely collapsed (http://chris.pirillo.com/archives/week_2002_03_31.html#000676) because everyone thought it was "their right" to flame the guy who runs it into oblivion. Why does the 'Net bring out the meanest part of people?


I am not sure why it would be a good idea to include a link to a site that in turn includes a link to a site (http://www.ydnar.com/) that suggests that you, Jason, don't follow other host's rules. Not if you want to set up your own rules and have them respected.

William

[Kevin Daly]

:roll:
The alarming thing is that it is even necessary to remind people of most of this. Surely as sane people discussing subjects which are, let's face it, not matters of life and death, we can do so with a bit of common civility?
The venom to which some boards descend frankly raises serious questions about the emotional stability of the average human being.

[Daniel]

Jason,

I respect you and your opinion. I respect the way that you have handled me and my opinion in the past when we haven't agreed. I have seen you deal with others in the same way. I think you are doing a good job.

You will never rid this forum or any online forum of people that want to cause trouble, because these people go looking for trouble. They want you and everyone else to be annoyed. Some people enjoy arguing with others, this leads to problems when those same people can't control their tempers.

Keep it up Jason.

Daniel

[Kre]

I think that you guys have done an excellent job at moderating this site. It isnt an easy job, and I know, as Ive run and moderated large sites myself.

Keep in mind, that my comments are of a general nature. I am not pointing fingers, but rather my words are for both moderators and posters in general. I am only voicing my opinion, being both a moderator and a poster myself, since this subject matter has been brought up.

On the net, so many times, we can be misunderstood. We all know this. No body language or audible intonation is present, and no matter how careful a person tries to be with their words, things get misconstrued, and arguments erupt. Theres no way around it, things are taken the wrong way from time to time. But if someone makes a comment about someone or something, that I dont agree with or that rubs me the wrong way, Ive discovered its best not to make knee jerk reactions, make negative accusations, or get wrapped up in character or repuation bashing.

We`re all guilty of some of these things, but learning to clarify what another person says to make sure youve understood what the other person was trying to communicate, comes with experience. Its better to give another person a chance to explain or clarify without interrogation or an accusational tone, which can more often than not, result in the prevention of an argument.

Ive found myself, on too many occasions, trying to diffuse an argument created by someone who took what I said completely out of context and immediately began accusing me of doing something I had not. Im sure that weve all found ourselves in this situation. Egos get in the way because sometimes people are more interested in winning a debate or an argument than they are in understanding the truth. We can all jump to conclusions far, far too quickly. Instead, we should all make more effort to ask questions and seek understanding before lashing out. Obviously, there are situations that dont require questioning, because the circumstances are so obvious that there is nothing to question, as in cases involving physical threats, bigotry, heavy profanity, etc. These situations are less common on moderated sites such as this one, but of course, this is a given. My reasoning does not apply to these extreme situations, which have their own unique set of consequences.

I also try to avoid defending others. If someone on a board makes what appears to me to be a strong remark that initially rubs me the wrong way, unless its about one of my family members, I dont get involved. This is the responsibility of the individual of whom a remark was made. In other words, but in reference to myself, if someone makes a negative remark about me, I dont expect others to come to my rescue and fight my battles, so to speak, if I feel theres a battle to be fought in the first place. I do it myself. And likewise, I let others handle their own issues. I dont make it my job to defend others at every turn because I think it may be necessary, or because I think its for the common good to be the worlds teacher. I defend only myself, if necessary. Getting involved with other peoples issues is like grabbing a dog by the ears. Nothing good comes of it. If I really feel I should make a comment anyway, I make effort to make sure that I dont initially come across argumentative or accusational.

Often times, as a moderator, it can be tempting to feel that its our job to `enlighten` others every chance we get, as though we`re the only ones with any insight or sensitivity, and that its our responsibility to open the eyes of our `followers` who are otherwise uncaring, selfish little children. I, myself, have been guilty of doing this in the past. Sometimes, it can be necessary to be out in the trenches with everyone else, to realize or remember that just because we moderate or run sites, it doesnt make us any better than anyone else. We all know that theres always the sludge, but mostly posters are from every walk of life, and its silly to think that we have something over those who come and contribute at the sites we run. Pride is a dangerous thing. Again, I am only talking in general.

But as posters, we too, have to remember that we also are no better than anyone else. Otherwise, we become arrogant and careless with our words. On the net, regardless of what side of the fence we`re on, this is a lesson that comes with plenty of opportunity for us to remember these things.

I suppose the bottom line here is to remember that we`re all in this together. We all put our pants on the same way. And the attitudes necessary to make a community great, have to exist on both sides of the fence. Patience, humility, and respect. Im reminded of these things all the time. Sometimes we`re the teacher, and sometimes we`re the student. And sometimes we`re both at the same time. Ain`t the net fun?

[Jason Dunn]

I am not sure why it would be a good idea to include a link to a site that in turn includes a link to a site (http://www.ydnar.com/) that suggests that you, Jason, don't follow other host's rules. Not if you want to set up your own rules and have them respected.


I like to think that people are adult enough to understand that there's a reason for everything, and that sometimes rules get broken because of that. The scenario was that someone was asking for asking for an EQ program for their Pocket PC. The newsgroups there didn't have a binary group for Pocket PCs, and the EQ program has no URL to download it from, so I posted the file to help the guy who asked for it out. Immediately the moderator pounced on me, and it turned into a little flame war - I really have no patience for USENET rulebook-thumpers who insist on three line sigs, no top quoting, etc. There's more to life than rules like that.

I find the fact that he wanted to post my apology quite odd, just like I found the fact that he got so upset about a 15K binary to begin with.

So there you have it. I would hope that if someone wanted to break my rules, and they had a good reason for doing so (ie: it was serving you guys in some way) that I'd be mature enough to recognize that and let the rule be broken once.

[shawnc]

:roll:
The alarming thing is that it is even necessary to remind people of most of this. Surely as sane people discussing subjects which are, let's face it, not matters of life and death, we can do so with a bit of common civility?
The venom to which some boards descend frankly raises serious questions about the emotional stability of the average human being.

EXACTLY! I just read Jason's policy and most of it was simply common sense and human courtesy. My experience with this site is that the overhelming majority of participants understand, and abide by, the rules. The others (very small minority) likely understand the rules, but simply don't care. My perception is that the moderators jobs have become increasingly more difficult. Some of us (and I include myself in this category) need to lighten up a bit so these folks don't have to work so hard to keep this site so great.

[Wuss912]

how about adding a rule about no pictures in sigs...
we already have the avatar pics and that already seems excessive .

[easylife]

Digging up old threads, eh? :wink: I think the rules come down to a mixture of common sense and site policy. :way to go:

[Janak Parekh]

easylife -- not really -- this thread was referred to by a frontpage post of Jason's today.

--janak

[easylife]

easylife -- not really -- this thread was referred to by a frontpage post of Jason's today.
Yes I know, but nevertheless this discussion took place over a year ago. :wink:

EDIT: Arg, I recieved this error when I posted the first time:
Failed sending email :: PHP ::
And I posted a second time, resulting in a duplicate post. I clicked 'delete' but I couldn't delete the post because Janak had already replied! So, after my reply to Janak, I edited my second post to include something about the error, and when I pushed submit, phpBB informed me that it had been already deleted! :lol: Oh well...

[Jason Dunn]

easylife -- not really -- this thread was referred to by a frontpage post of Jason's today.
Yes I know, but nevertheless this discussion took place over a year ago. :wink:

But it's still perfectly valid today - in fact, I updated the section on sigs. So what's your point here exactly?

[easylife]

But it's still perfectly valid today - in fact, I updated the section on sigs. So what's your point here exactly?My point? Simply saying that the rules should be based on common sense and site policy and what's acceptable and what's not is largely based upon the curcumstances. :wink: The part about the old thread was just extra. :D

[JustinGTP]

But, its good to get them out again because now I can see them. This would be my first time!

-Justin.