Politics or bugs behind Microsoft exec massacre? [Archive]

Jason Dunn

03-22-2002, 02:24 AM

<a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/24531.html">http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/24531.html</a> The author of this article must be a butcher in his day job, because the way he swings the meat cleaver around in this article makes me think he must practice a lot. I think the title of the article should have been "Andrew Orlowski job shadows for a day and steals some time at the keyboard". <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/butcher.gif" /> The Register is the most blindly hateful anti-Microsoft web rag I've seen. Quite often I like reading their stuff because most of their writers have a wicked sense of humour, but I know some of what's going on inside the Mobile Devices group at Microsoft and Orlowski couldn't be more wrong. Someone is feeding him information - someone who THINKS they know what's going on, the result is a comical attempt at "reporting". Tsk tsk. Dumpster diving is so degrading isn't it? I'll be the first to admit that the 2002 release has more than a few bugs, but if Orlowski things any software release is bug free, he should go back to chopping veal for a living.

sk4rlath

03-22-2002, 02:49 AM

Their logo is a buzzard for a reason. :?

"Look! A BUG! Shoot to kill, men! :twisted:"

jeffmckean

03-22-2002, 03:06 AM

...reported that Derek was "replaced by new "mobility marketing" chief Nicole Papineau." Now Nicole is a nice person, and very capable, and she brought stickers to my user group meeting when Beth couldn't come...but she just started with Mobility about six weeks ago and she is an a-dasher (contract employee)...not chief of "mobility marketing," as the article says.
At The Register, I think they hate before they think.
Not very accurate reporting, I agree!

Big Honkin' Deal

03-22-2002, 03:33 AM

Well the Pocket PC 2002 release in October has proved extremely buggy and could be a candidate for the flakiest software to come out of Redmond since DOS 4.0,

While I agree that the Register is an extreme biased publication I kind of have to agree with the statement above.... I am growing to hate PPC 2002 a littler more each day.

Frank

Take1

03-22-2002, 04:08 AM

Wow. Had no idea there was that much WRONG with the PPC OS. MS had better get these fixed or they will simply NOT be taken seriously.

The big question for MS is:

1. Do you REALLY want PPC to be a success?

2. Do you REALLY want to do this platform right?

3. Do you REALLY want to compete against Palm?

If the answer is YES then do these things:

1. Get the Office suite up to par with AT LEAST what Palm has to offer. What's up with no tables, etc.?!

2. Get Outlook working MUCH BETTER. Look at Datebook 4 and make something happen. Better yet, buy or hire the company making Pocket Informant, fund it WELL and make things happen. PIM isn't something you can ignore.

3. Get the misc. bugs out -- TEST the product EXTENSIVLEY before releasing the OS. Bugs happen, so get on top of them as they arise QUICKLY. The life of PDAs are short and waiting 6 months before fixing minor problems really does not look like MS gives a crap about the customer.

3. Spend some $$ on promoting your product. Get MINIMAL product displays in the store -- perhaps a demo, hooked up to some GOOD computer speakers which shows all the features of the PPC? Audio is something PPC doesn't really emphasize simply sitting on the shelf next to a mute m515.

4. Get the poor shmucks at the PPC division the manpower/funds they need to do a good job. Either they are underfunded, under manned, or simply not good at their job. I think it's more likely the first two rather than the third.

Rob Borek

03-22-2002, 04:20 AM

1. Get the Office suite up to par with AT LEAST what Palm has to offer. What's up with no tables, etc.?!

Mentioned over and over again to Microsoft by the MVPs at the last MVP Summit (where we sat down with the dev teams). Better round-tripping was at the top of the list.

2. Get Outlook working MUCH BETTER. Look at Datebook 4 and make something happen. Better yet, buy or hire the company making Pocket Informant, fund it WELL and make things happen. PIM isn't something you can ignore.

Why not leave the PIM applications relatively basic and easy to use, and allow power-users to use the power applications such as PocketInformant? Sure, Contacts, Tasks, and the like can be improved, but Datebk4 isn't part of the Palm OS.

3. Get the misc. bugs out -- TEST the product EXTENSIVLEY before releasing the OS. Bugs happen, so get on top of them as they arise QUICKLY. The life of PDAs are short and waiting 6 months before fixing minor problems really does not look like MS gives a crap about the customer.

Mentioned to Microsoft.

3. Spend some $$ on promoting your product. Get MINIMAL product displays in the store -- perhaps a demo, hooked up to some GOOD computer speakers which shows all the features of the PPC? Audio is something PPC doesn't really emphasize simply sitting on the shelf next to a mute m515.

Microsoft has spent a ton of money on promoting the Pocket PC. Did you miss the Mobile Experience Tour last summer? Microsoft went around the country offering seminars on enterprise mobile usage to corporations, holding FanFests for the current Pocket PC users, and demoing the Pocket PCs at CompUSA's. They stopped at something like 10-15 major cities, including LA, Seattle, Boston, Chicago, and New York. I drove down from Ontario, Canada to hit the one in Boston (10hr drive), and it was a blast!

4. Get the poor shmucks at the PPC division the manpower/funds they need to do a good job. Either they are underfunded, under manned, or simply not good at their job. I think it's more likely the first two rather than the third.

They aren't underfunded, they aren't undermanned, and they do do a good job (generally - Connection Mangler excluded, although that was a conceptual nightmare more than a bad implementation). You can't just throw more money at a problem and hire more staff to make the problems go away: Software Engineering teaches you this. Each time you add someone, they have to come up to speed, which reduces the time of at least one other person to code and work on bugs and product planning. Adding staff is necessary, but if you add too much staff at one time you end up with a management nightmare where nothing ends up getting done.

Rob Alexander

03-22-2002, 04:34 AM

I know their baiting anti-MS tone may be irritating to loyalists, and their conclusions are a bit over the top, but I don't see that their point was all that unreasonable. PPC 2002 is full of bugs and it is a much sloppier effort than was PPC 2000. Just look in your own archives (if they were recovered after the big crash) when someone asked whether they thought PPC 2002 was an improvement over PPC 2000. The results of that thread were decidedly luke-warm for PPC 2002, even though this is an enthusiasts site.

:x I, for one, am tired of the PPC team ignoring the needs of their customers by 1) removing existing valuable features between versions, 2) failing to fix well-known bugs and usability problems, and 3) introducing new bugs and creating new usability problems. Sure, nothing is ever bug-free. But each release should be an improvement and we've been going the other way.

So if this guy wants to 'swing the cleaver' a bit, then I say "good on ya, mate" (as they say down here). :wink: MS doesn't much listen to customers, but they do seem to respond somewhat to the perceptions of the press. Maybe it will help us to get genuine improvements in the next version.

burmashave

03-22-2002, 05:12 AM

While I agree that the Register is an extreme biased publication I kind of have to agree with the statement above.... I am growing to hate PPC 2002 a littler more each day.

I agree 100%. I am a PPC power user, but the more I use mine, the more I realize it is just a toy. Worse, I realize that MS intends to keep it that way.

I'm eyeing the Sharp (Linux) Zaurus. A friend of mine just got his, and the second day he had it, he said he was going to install a server and get Java Servlets running on it. I told him I would be happy if I could get Javascript to run in PIE on my PPC.

-Will

Aceze

03-22-2002, 05:34 AM

I gotta go with the Register with this one - and my thoughts are very similar to Rob Alexander's... PPC2002 is half-baked (if that at all) - there are very few REAL improvements with core functionality. The things PPC2000 users complained MOST about were not really given much notice - it was almost as if MS needed a new OS to launch the 2002 platform, be damned with what people wanted to be done. Customers should never be sacrificed for a new product (MS's "too hell" attitude with their existing customer base with Processor streamlining, broken promises with MS Reader, Money, etc).

That said, I'll still hold my final decision on whether or not PPC is a valid decision for myself with .NET - if it is not much more than what PPC2002 was (a cosmetic change), I will move away from MS handhelds altogether (maybe even handhelds altogether, as I do not see anything promising on the market other than the Sharp SL-5000 series PDAs).

Aceze

Jason Dunn

03-22-2002, 06:25 AM

Big Honkin' Deal

03-22-2002, 06:40 AM

...if only you guys knew the truth. <sigh>

All things happen for a reason. The Pocket PC team is a hard working bunch of individuals, and I think they know they have a lot to accomplish in your eyes. :)

I'm not asking for much :P Give me a working OS that's all.... Right now I'm paying Voicestream $ 20.- per month for GRPS and I can not send e-mail with the PPC 2002 e-mail client. There are no repeat reminder options etc.

All this stuff works on my wife's Ipaq 3670 and I traded this functionality for cute icons :oops:

It has been 3.5 month that I put up with this stuff! and now we're talking about Xscale devices & the ce.net OS.... They seem to expect that we the public just write off a $ 650.- PDA purchase and hope that the next one will actually work as advertised.

Like they say, "Software matters"

innersky

03-22-2002, 08:13 AM

So they are biased. Aren't you :?:

Brize

03-22-2002, 08:17 AM

...for being such a know it all article, I saw a few mistakes that it seems they probably could have avoided by picking up a Pocket PC 2002. Right off the bat I tried the Calculator thing and on my Jornada 567 (SP1) it appears to be named correctly. I moved to the Find issue, entered "Microsoft Windows", and the search ran with good results. I didn't try the FTP thing, but I'm thinking that if I was going to do that a lot I would probably use a dedicated utility anyway. I'm also thinking there's a way to format the FTP request string with a username/password if you want.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone had the results I did or not.

If it was me, I would probably test things before ripping people about testing, but that's just me. :)

Brian

marlof

03-22-2002, 08:56 AM

So they are biased. Aren't you :?:

Bart, yes we're biased. I think in the end we're all biased. Thing is: we're biased because we like something. They seem to biased because they hate something. I don't know if that's healthy. That being said: as long as the bias is known, I see see nothing wrong in that. And they show well enough. Any 'news' site that calls Microsoft 'The Beast' and addresses Ballmer with nicknames, makes clear enough that there's not much love lost between MS and them....

So my problem with them is not their bias. It's the quality of their content. They - or at least this author - can't tell fact from rumor, and present things as facts that could have been found wrong if only a little investigation was done before writing the article. If you combine this story with a previous story this author did on a presumed Microsoft Pocket PC Team reshuffle (which Jeff McKean hinted at), you'll see that getting the facts straight isn't his forte.

The Register - or this author - may dislike Microsoft or the Pocket PC as much as they do, but coming to your conclusions based on wrong facts isn't a good way to present your case, no matter what your bias is. I read The Register for fun, not to learn anything on the industry. Happily there are other sources out there who are capable of telling fact from rumor, and who do spend some time verifying before publishing.

Chubbergott

03-22-2002, 12:24 PM

To be fair, none of my friends have mentioned thiis bag of bugs to me (and they would have). Maybe it was a bunch of early devices?

So they are biased. Aren't you :?:

Bart, yes we're biased. I think in the end we're all biased. Thing is: we're biased because we like something.

I don't think that's 100% true. It seems to me that a lot of the arguments here get started when (usually) Andy posts a thought on how pants the Palm is supposed to be. So I think it's a mixture of both.

As for the register, it's nice to see a 'publication' that isn't scared of Micro$oft.

But why do people get so emotional about Micro$oft? I believe it is io do with 'perception'. Much like there is a 'perception' of America in certain areas of the world that causes dislike toward the America (which I would not seek to justify), Micro$oft is seen as an organisation that takes the credit for breaking ground someone else has broken, inventing something someone else has invented, riding roughshod over anybody who looks like competition only to pretend afterwarrds that they never existed and using its financial weight to force companies into doing things they don't want to do.

Now every man and his dog knows that if it wasn't Micro$oft, it would be someone else. However, that still doesn't make it right and that is what makes my blood boil. There is absolutely no regard for truth. Saying that Linux is a virus, banning BeOS from manufacturers ' hard drives, saying that the Smartphone will be the first smartphone ever, pretending that Windows is the first pre-emptive multitasking OS for the consumer (the Amiga was being pre-emptive while Windows had only just learned to co-operate)..

In my opinion, the West (and more) does owe a debt of gratitude to Micro$oft for bringing IT to the masses, but that doesn't mean accepting the spin, lies and propaganda that it churcns out day after day after day. If you don't believe me, look at the cases against Micro$oft in court and read what the Micro$oft representatives are saying. For example, how on earth can Steve Ballmer say that he doesn't know what WindowsCE.NET is if he's the CEO!? Or why all the memos saying that Micro$oft must deliberately make competitors' software/hardware crash? These aren't the actions of an organisation whos priorities are security and quality through innovation. These are the actions of a company who is actively seeking to destroy, crush, block and hinder.

It's when I started to heard these stories that I started to ask myself if I wanted to align myself with a standard (Micro$oft is more than a company, it is a standard) that is corrupt to the core.

Take1

03-22-2002, 12:30 PM

[quote=Take1]
They aren't underfunded, they aren't undermanned, and they do do a good job (generally - Connection Mangler excluded, although that was a conceptual nightmare more than a bad implementation). You can't just throw more money at a problem and hire more staff to make the problems go away: Software Engineering teaches you this. Each time you add someone, they have to come up to speed, which reduces the time of at least one other person to code and work on bugs and product planning. Adding staff is necessary, but if you add too much staff at one time you end up with a management nightmare where nothing ends up getting done.

While I agree that 'throwing money' at the problem isn't NECESSARILY a solution. I got the impression that issues like the infamous MS Reader for PPC (3.0) not being able to do DRM was a result of simply not having the resources or manpower to attend to the issue (they promised a fix early 2001, and then simply said 'sorry' can't be done). I don't know the structure of the team that makes up the mobile OS, but I got the impression they simply didn't have the resources to get enhancements/revisions done in a timley manner.

I forgot about the Mobile Experience Tour (they didn't come where I live).
I've seen dozens of Palm ad on TV and none on the PocketPC. I'd like to see more retail promotion, since that's where the casual buyer will actually be handling the devices and begin his/her research. They'll probably want to check out the devices several times over a period of time before making a decision. That's how I bought my E-100 (played with the thing about 20 times at Office Depot before spending the $499 for the thing) way back when (1999 is a LONG time ago In PDA years!). Just an opinion.

Thanks for filling me in on some of the 'back door' stuff going on at MS. Us regular guys don't know that MS really knows, cares, or values our opinions -- the only real feedback we get is the next OS revision.

Ed Hansberry

03-22-2002, 01:54 PM

burmashave

03-22-2002, 01:57 PM

...if only you guys knew the truth. <sigh>

All things happen for a reason. The Pocket PC team is a hard working bunch of individuals, and I think they know they have a lot to accomplish in your eyes. :)

Why should we accept a much, much lower standard of quality than what many of us had learned to expect from Palm or the quality many of us currently expect from certain third party developers? I do not doubt that MS has a dedicated mobile devices team. The problem is not the team; the problem is MS management in general and mobile device management in specific.

And I will not accept the argument that PPC is more complicated; therefore, users should expect the platform to be shakier than a dog poopin' peach pits. How can a company so grossly screw up an email client? Why should PPC to desktop synchronization -- the lifeblood of a PDA -- require an engineering degree to keep it running? Should not this one key feature have been worked out before anything else was added?

I think the clue to the current state of the PPC OS lies in the marketing:

Microsoft has spent a ton of money on promoting the Pocket PC. Did you miss the Mobile Experience Tour last summer? Microsoft went around the country offering seminars on enterprise mobile usage to corporations, holding FanFests for the current Pocket PC users, and demoing the Pocket PCs at CompUSA's.

Flash sells in the short term, so the users get "themes" instead of synchronization that works. PIE works well enough to demo, so we get a browser with less functionality than MS IE 3.0/NS 2.0. Take a look, it runs Excel and Word, but the device will already be purchased before the consumer realizes how crippled the PPC versions are.

I could go on; however, my point is that MS is selling PPC by creating "cool" functionality to demo instead of developing quality software. Do any of us expect MS to be pushing the next rev. of PPC with the tagline, "Look! it has synchronization that works!" Or would MS sell wireless access with the line, "Check it out, PPC now has a browser that allows a user to surf the World Wide Web!"

I would not expect the state of PPC to change radically unless MS makes a sea change in its attitude about how to sell PPC.

Rafe

03-22-2002, 02:24 PM

I couldn;t resist replying to this thread...

The thing about the register is it is seen as anti-Microsoft. I'm not sure this is fair in one sense. It criticises nearly everything - nothing escapes from the vulture. Microsoft is a very obvious target and most of what the Register says is true and is a fair comment or opinion. You need to have a sense of humour (and a British one and that) to understand most of their writing. Sadly a lot of people lack this and attack something the don't really understand.

The Register takes a very refreshing viewpoint by being sceptical / critical in a way that isn't really matched elsewhere. Comapre it to a site like ZDNet with it hideous microsft balance. This site too is very bad in some repsects - its a fan site (not bad in itslef - you just have to take things with a pitch of salt) - at least you admit that - but I've seen a couple of inaccurate bits of reporting (and just as imporant in some ways things not being reported). Also as someone mentioned there is often engative comment on both Palm and Symbian.

I myself run a site about Symbian stuff - I dont report on all aspects of smarrtphones or PDA's just Symbian but I hope I keep a good balance and I am critical at times. By contrast here you are often critical or derogotory of Symbian (not all the time of course) and even more so Palm. This is the kind of negative reporting you detest so much when it is pointed at PPC - when the shoes on the other foot eh?!

Just my opinion of course!
Rafe

JoeThielen

03-22-2002, 03:39 PM

I didn't try the FTP thing, but I'm thinking that if I was going to do that a lot I would probably use a dedicated utility anyway. I'm also thinking there's a way to format the FTP request string with a username/password if you want.

It doesn't matter if you specify a username or not! It will automatically try and log in anonymously! I've written an application in eVB (FM-YiRC Client for PocketPCs) which uses the FTP functions. In PocketPC2000 they worked great (still do). On my Casio E-200, it doesn't work. http://freemed-yirc.familyandyouth.org

..if only you guys knew the truth. <sigh>

What truth, Jason? Is there something we don't know about? Isn't it all right there in the PocketPC2002? Or is there some expansion pack with the truth that we forgot to buy (or Microsoft forgot to sell us?).

Where do you want to go today?

I want to wake up with my PocketPC's repeating reminders (like I did with the PocketPC2000). I want to go to work and have my FTP functions work (like It did with the PocketPC2000). I want to go home and synchronize with my PC without praying in advance (like I can do with my girlfriends Palm III).

How's about:

Where do you want to go the day before yesterday?
...Or...
Can your PocketPC do THAT? (The things it did in the last version, but not this time...)

:evil:

Rob Borek

03-22-2002, 04:07 PM

While I agree that 'throwing money' at the problem isn't NECESSARILY a solution. I got the impression that issues like the infamous MS Reader for PPC (3.0) not being able to do DRM was a result of simply not having the resources or manpower to attend to the issue (they promised a fix early 2001, and then simply said 'sorry' can't be done). I don't know the structure of the team that makes up the mobile OS, but I got the impression they simply didn't have the resources to get enhancements/revisions done in a timley manner.

The problem with MS Reader for the Pocket PC 2000 OS was with DRM. The major stumbling block is that this OS did not require unique IDs for each device, which is necessary to implement DRM. Given a lot of time, they probably could have overcome it, but it would have required a large amount of coding work. The patches alone probably would have exceeded 2-3MB or more, and even after coding was complete would have taken 2-3 months to reach release due to necessary testing.

I'm not saying it was wrong to promise a DRM release of Reader for the old Pocket PC OS. Derek Brown apologized profusely for this, and admitted MS made an error.

I forgot about the Mobile Experience Tour (they didn't come where I live).
I've seen dozens of Palm ad on TV and none on the PocketPC. I'd like to see more retail promotion, since that's where the casual buyer will actually be handling the devices and begin his/her research. They'll probably want to check out the devices several times over a period of time before making a decision. That's how I bought my E-100 (played with the thing about 20 times at Office Depot before spending the $499 for the thing) way back when (1999 is a LONG time ago In PDA years!). Just an opinion.

Microsoft can only do so much - they have to promote the general Pocket PC OS, and when they promote it as such, they must promote it on ALL devices. Microsoft is not into the retail channel, or into hardware - that's up to the device manufacturers.

As for TV ads, they cost a ton of money to make and show. Why not target advertising better by placing it in magazines, newspapers, online, via sponsorships, etc. all of which are cheaper than TV ads? That way, you get it out to the masses, and via sponsorship, FanFests, free giveaways, etc. you amass loyalty and good feelings. For example, I really got that vibe at Gnomedex 2001, which Microsoft Mobility sponsored and which Derek spoke at (and gave away Pocket PCs at). Derek is an excellent speaker and presenter, and he really pumped up interest and loyalty (I was just in the back with Ed H. showing them what a Pocket PC can do).

Thanks for filling me in on some of the 'back door' stuff going on at MS. Us regular guys don't know that MS really knows, cares, or values our opinions -- the only real feedback we get is the next OS revision.

They really do care. Back in November, all of the Mobile Devices MVP's (well... excluding one that couldn't make it because of other prior commitments) went to the MVP Summit at Microsoft HQ in Redmond, WA, and we arrived a day early to spend an entire day with the Mobile/Pocket PC developers. They really were enthusiastic to talk to us and get our views, especially ActiveSync (they requested an hour and a half with us). All told, we spent around 12 hours chained to our chairs (we ate lunch during the discussions). We even spent more time over the next couple of days with the marketing and dev teams. I was exhausted (as were other people that were there - Ed H., Jason, Marlof, Brad, Chris De Herrera, Marc Zimmermann, Markus Schweiger, Steven Perry, Todd Ogasawara, Michael Gordon, Giorgio Cifani, Julio Meneses, Vassili Philippov, David Wojciechowski, Philippe Majerus), but it really was a great time!

Big Honkin' Deal

03-22-2002, 04:43 PM

[quote=Take1]
They really do care. Back in November, all of the Mobile Devices MVP's................

So why don't they do something about our complains if they care so much? It's been over six month since PPC 2002 was released.

AZMark

03-22-2002, 05:08 PM

No real flame throwers, but nice to see you all still call Jason to the mat. But the problem is everyone is looking at Microsoft to solve all the problems. Thing is Microsoft does not sell any Pocket PC devices.

MS has allowed their OEM's to do final testing, releasing, and promoting of the devices. Unforturnaly their two biggest OEM's have had their combined heads in some pretty dark places as they try to merge.

Forgien OEM's have had very bad track records rolling out products to American business markets. Microsoft may have to jump in and try to promote a bit more. Have their reps (huge sales force) carry, give away, get trained on PPC. Create in store displays that do a much better job of getting the point across. (autorunning demo? speakers? large monitor?)

You may say that instore demos don't sell to business, but many CEO's shop at Best Buy. How many PPC sales reps have called on the CEO?

If MS needs one more good marketing person,,,I'll put in my resume. I come cheap!

marlof

03-22-2002, 05:08 PM

What do you mean, they didn't do something in those 6 months? Microsoft did release the End User Update 1 in the meantime to address some immediate problems like the DNS reversing that was a big honking deal for European GPRS users, and the generic SMTP problems they found. I'd like to see more updates too, but I know they're not exactly sitting still!

marlof

03-22-2002, 05:10 PM

The Register takes a very refreshing viewpoint by being sceptical / critical in a way that isn't really matched elsewhere.

I'm cool with that. And I understand their humor (I already stated that I read the site for my pleasure). But what I can't forgive is a site that mispresents facts when posting 'news'stories. You write facts or you write fiction. If you present fiction as facts, your credibility is down the drain. Of course all sites make mistakes (nobody's perfect, right?), but at least some are willing to admit that.....

I myself run a site about Symbian stuff - I dont report on all aspects of smarrtphones or PDA's just Symbian but I hope I keep a good balance and I am critical at times.

Good for you! I love sites that dare to be critical of the platform of their choice. But do a little search, and you'll find quite some critical notes by Jason, Andy, Ed, me etc. on all things Microsoft. We know it's not just a party, and we know some things are wrong. Somehow people call this a "fan site". If that's true, we're critical fans. We like the general vision of the Microsoft band, but we don't necessarily like all the songs on all the albums they bring out.

By contrast here you are often critical or derogotory of Symbian (not all the time of course) and even more so Palm. This is the kind of negative reporting you detest so much when it is pointed at PPC - when the shoes on the other foot eh?!

The times we talk about Symbian and Palm it's about 'checking out the competition of the platform we like', and comparing the two. For me, as long as I write for this site, it's safe to say that I think the Pocket PC still is best solution for me. That doesn't mean I think that is indefinitely so, or that the other platforms are plainly stupid. All platforms have strong things going for them. I just think it's very sad that the times that I did post questions like "Why is the Palm platform better for a Multimedia Handheld Device like the Sony Clie?" that people don't bother to answer my questions, they just tell me I'm biased. What is so good about the Palm OS when you want to add multimedia to your device? After many months I'm still waiting for an answer to that question. I want to learn, and I'm still hoping someone will educate me.

Big Honkin' Deal

03-22-2002, 05:16 PM

Like I said... I can not send e-mail, No repeat alarms, Media Player skips etc.

Service pack 1 did not resolve this for me, so what's the solution? Wait six more months and buy the next version? I don't think so. :P

What do you mean, they didn't do something in those 6 months? Microsoft did release the End User Update 1 in the meantime to address some immediate problems like the DNS reversing that was a big honking deal for European GPRS users, and the generic SMTP problems they found. I'd like to see more updates too, but I know they're not exactly sitting still!

marlof

03-22-2002, 05:29 PM

I wouldn't like to buy a new OS just to get that functionality. You're quite right about that!

Not sending email: that is *not* a Pocket PC 2002 limitation. I have GPRS and my Pocket PC 2002, and I can send e-mail fine. I know my telco at first didn't provide email sending, but due to huge user protest they switched it on. So go to Voicestream and complain. Complain hard!

If it's the limited SMTP-AUTH functionality in the MS Inbox that's bothering Voicestream you might want to try nPOP (http://www.nakka.com/soft/npop/index_eng.html) a nice freeware POP3 client that has way better SMTP-AUTH support. And yes, I've asked for this kind of support in the newer inbox. ;)

Repeating alarms: this is one of the things I'd like to see fixed ASAP!

Skipping Media Player: do you happen to have an iPAQ and play from MMC? Join the ranks of unhappy iPAQ users. The Compaq iPAQ SD drivers are buggy to say the least. When I play from the CF card in my Silver Slider, all is well, if I put the same stuff on the MMC card, it's skipping all over the place. I've seen in the Compaq support forum at Pocket Now that this is on Compaq's to do list....

All in all: out of your three complaints, only one seems to be Microsoft related. And I agree with AZMark: that's one of the problems. You have MS bits, you have OEM bits, and both form the product you're using. Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint the culprit for defects in functionality.

burmashave

03-22-2002, 05:31 PM

I agree 100%. I am a PPC power user, but the more I use mine, the more I realize it is just a toy. Worse, I realize that MS intends to keep it that way.

It is funny how the Pocket PC 2002 is the most advanced and most powerful PDA commercially available today and people still gripe and whine about it comparing it to products that are either non-existant, are in very limited distribution...

The Zaurus is a commercial PDA running Linux with a built-in PIM. It is capable of running most applications that currently run on Linux. That means that users can run desktop versions of Opera or Netscape in addition to a wide variety of email clients, editors, media players, office applications, messaging clients, etc. Thus, the Linux PDA platform has already far eclipsed PPC in terms of available software.

That's a far cry from non-existent. I would call it advanced, powerful and extensible.

If I appear to be whining, do a Google search for "activesync" in the microsoft.public.pocketpc newsgroup. I get about 24,600 results with about a 1,000 since last November. While some of these may not be related to problems, most are. What a joke! It's not as if MS is crossing new ground here. They developed the desktop and PDA OS's, and file/database synchronization is mature technology. Worse, users have complained about ActiveSync in the official MS newsgroup from day one.

My complaint is that MS sells its PDA OS as "Pocket PC;" however, it is still more than a PDA than PC. I would prefer to use the same type of system on my desktop and PDA; however, if MS cannot pick up the slack soon, I will definitely quit complaining and jump to a better platform.

The Zaurus is currently only in developer release; however, anyone who doubts that it is a serious PDA should check these sites:
http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/zaurus-sl-5000d-review.html
http://www.trolltech.com/products/qtopia/screenshots.html

Big Honkin' Deal

03-22-2002, 05:35 PM

Not sending email: that is *not* a Pocket PC 2002 limitation. I have GPRS and my Pocket PC 2002, and I can send e-mail fine. I know my telco at first didn't provide email sending, but due to huge user protest they switched it on. So go to Voicestream and complain. Complain hard!

I think your wrong about this. I gave my wife my old Ipaq 3670 and she can e-mail just fine with it. Same setup except PPC2002 on my machine.

Frank

marlof

03-22-2002, 05:40 PM

I think your wrong about this. I gave my wife my old Ipaq 3670 and she can e-mail just fine with it. Same setup except PPC2002 on my machine.
Frank

Hmm, other Voicestream GPRS users told me they couldn't send mail anyhow. But you'll probably know what's best, with two devices and the same subscription to compare. More reason to try nPOP, and I have this noted for our next 'fix this!' session with Microsoft. ;)

Hans the Hedgehog

03-22-2002, 05:41 PM

...if only you guys knew the truth. <sigh>

All things happen for a reason. The Pocket PC team is a hard working bunch of individuals, and I think they know they have a lot to accomplish in your eyes. :)

Jason, the problem is that we "do know the truth" because we hold it in out hands everyday. Of course, those of us not in the MVP Club don't know the politics of the Mobile Devices group, but nor do many of us care. Microsoft internal politics do not factor into how I feel about a given MS product that is buggy, unstable, or difficult to use. In my line of work serving clients, they don't care if we are having staffing issues, conflicts, differing visions, or whatever, all they care about is getting their website up and running, looking good, and functional.

What we see are fundamental problems with the OS that did not exist or existed to a much lesser extent than in the previous version. I still hold on to my E-125 because of the problems with hardware, software that friends of mine have experienced. It's a shame really. I would really like to move forward, but I've never felt PPC2002 was really that much of an improvement-- more like the move from 98SE to ME, really (more buggy, more fluff, less stability).

The article may be, as you said, so wrong and misrepresenting of the facts that it shouldn't be called journalism, and that's fine to stir up some trouble and readership. But the fact remains that many people are still struggling more with PPC2002 devices than before... many people have had a poorer experience, even migrating to other platforms, because of PPC2002... it all comes down to the fact that people want something that works, works well, and doesn't leave them feeling like the punch line of a joke.

A Happy E-125 owner,
Hans

Big Honkin' Deal

03-22-2002, 05:49 PM

[quote=Big Honkin' Deal]
More reason to try nPOP, and I have this noted for our next 'fix this!' session with Microsoft. ;)

I do use nPOP but that's not the point :P If this programmer can accomplish this with a 185K program that makes me wonder about Microsoft's commitment to get fixes out.....

Frank

marlof

03-22-2002, 05:58 PM

Frank, I got your point, and I got it pretty well. It's not for nothing that I said I put this on my "Fix This!" list. In the most recent meeting with Microsoft I showed some nPOP functionality that IMO should be in the MS Inbox as well. I think the new Inbox is great for some use, but it is severely lacking in several features that I use on a regular basis. I switched back to nPOP after a while, and had to give up my IMAP for that reason. But now I have to stop saying nPOP. If Ed H. sees I'm promoting it again, he'll edit my posts. ;)

Chubbergott

03-22-2002, 06:12 PM

The Zaurus is a commercial PDA running Linux with a built-in PIM. It is capable of running most applications that currently run on Linux. That means that users can run desktop versions of Opera or Netscape in addition to a wide variety of email clients, editors, media players, office applications, messaging clients, etc. Thus, the Linux PDA platform has already far eclipsed PPC in terms of available software.

I did not know that! Now that is powerful!

I know people who tried to install Paradox on their WindowsCE machine, but if what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt it)..... well!

Rob Borek

03-22-2002, 07:17 PM

So why don't they do something about our complains if they care so much? It's been over six month since PPC 2002 was released.

I have no doubt that they continue to work on problems, bugs, issues, and enhancements. The dev team doesn't get laid off after every release. However, Microsoft is very very secretive about any future releases (including bug fixes) until it is just about to be released (or not until it's released) due to the sensitive nature of the mobile industry (look at Palm - they released info about PalmOS 5 way too early, and it cost them big time).

sk4rlath

03-22-2002, 10:49 PM

I can feel it here too. That odd rumbling sound right before the inevitable. You can almost hear those on one side gathering their Open Source code, and those on the other side with their ActiveX and VBA. All the while the poor PDA in the middle covers it's head and hopes for the best.

I consider myself a 'power user'. I'm a developer for PocketPC as well as Windows. Conversely, I dual boot XP and Slackware 8. I can move around either with great ease. I've seen both sides of the argument (Linux vs. Windows, as I see this turning into the PPC version of such), and I have to say that PocketPC 2002 works for me. I have the PPC2002 ROM upgrade for my H3600. I have had trouble sync'ing the device, but that was easily solved (go to Get Connected... and hit OK before sliding the device in the cradle). I have trouble with Windows Media Player (it doesn't run at all), but then again, I never listen to music anyways. I'd love to have reminders that worked perfectly so I could use my iPaq as a portable alarm clock, but I have a regular alarm clock to wake me up in the morning. I don't have any wireless technology (aside from the infared port, but that doesn't really count), so e-mail is strictly ActiveSync'ed. I'd love to have contacts that sync to my Outlook contacts list, but I don't ever use the contact list in Outlook (the device one's sitting right there and I can get to things faster with it). There's lots of problems with PocketPC 2002, and I don't think we should stop complaining about them, but the best thing to do is not to complain then flee from the product because your demands weren't met in a week. I think we should stick with it and make our own workarounds until Microsoft decides that it's profitable to fix our little bugs. Who knows? Maybe the stuff we come up with will be even better than the official fixes!

I'm not trying to side with anyone here. I'm simply saying to apply the same logic we apply to desktop software to the PocketPC. If it doesn't work, check to see if someone else fixed it. If not, then fix it yourself and tell everyone about it. If you can't fix it, complain to someone who can until they do.

If you find this message flammable, please ignite it and send it to me by email. I love reading flames - they make me laugh. :lol:

CoffeeKid

03-23-2002, 12:37 AM

I know and expect this website to be biased for Microsoft and the Pocket PC, and I actually like that aspect.

But Jason (or the others), when you slip into the role of apologist, thats when it gets to be a bit too much.

PPC 2K2 has a lot of problems. And the passing the buck syndrome ("oh, speak to Compaq about that popping noise" ... "oh, speak to Microsoft about that popping noise" seems rampant at times.

PPC 2K2 is a bug ridden program. Too much emphasis on Bob'ing it up and getting the shiny happy icons and demos and messenger etc working was placed on it, and not enough on usability, functionality, seamless round tripping, and software that just plain works, as in, no bugs, no worries.

Here's my top ten list of PPC 2K2 woes:

1. Popping sound (no, I haven't installed the fix yet, I'm wary of it after reading that it hasn't worked for some people)

2. I pay Fido $100 for GPRS each month, but still can't use it with my iPaq. I've had other people look at the setup, called Fido, called Microsoft ("Call compaq" they say), called Compaq (call Motorola, they say). Meanwhile I can actually use it on my wife's ancient tech Palm Vx. Go figure.

3. Round tripping for Word is a joke. I lose all my formatting, I even lose documents. All I want is the basic features - keep the bob stuff out, but give me tables, give me spell checking

4. Pocket IE is highly erratic. It can stall for a minute or more at times, and just quit without warning.

5. Alarms. Thanks for screwing this up, Microsoft.

6. Two stage editing of contacts. What is up with that.

7. Lack of a "close app" button. Discussed to death, but Microsoft to this day "still doesn't get it". I actually got a good chuckle out of all the apologism flying around last fall for this one... "well, it still doesn't have a close app one click button... but hey, it manages memory better!" Meanwhile I remember back to being told how even during the PPC 2K dev conferences, all the software people were polled and said they wanted a close app button, and the Microsoft techs, those "good people" as Jason says, were struck dumfounded. Why would you want that...

8. The 50% battery warning is completely useless and annoying. Why the hell can't we set the times we want those alarms to go off?

9. Connectivity is completely iffy. I have about a 30% success rate checking mail via the PPC when connected via USB. 0% with GPRS. I'm afraid to buy a CF WiFi card for this reason. Wasted money.

10. Microsoft is quite aware of most of the above listed concerns. Which ones have been fixed? Supposedly the popping sound, but that's about it.

Microsoft, stop Bob'ing us to death with PPC. And Jason et al, you know I like you guys a lot, and I accept and enjoy your pro-ppc bias. Just be wary of crossing over to the apologist side.

burmashave

03-23-2002, 02:06 AM

I can feel it here too. That odd rumbling sound right before the inevitable. You can almost hear those on one side gathering their Open Source code, and those on the other side with their ActiveX and VBA. All the while the poor PDA in the middle covers it's head and hopes for the best.

I agree there may be some rumbling; however, what I hear right now is what I heard from Palm when WinCe 3.0 was on the horizon: Palm has a better OS; People don't want the features in WinCE; There's no software for WinCE; Palm users should wait for OS improvements (that never came); WinCe is no threat at all to Palm; The WinCE platform is not a serious competitor to Palm, etc.

Palm did not listen to its users, and as a result many dedicated Palm users, including myself, jumped to the WinCe platform. Palm is now headed for the dumpster.

Just as Palm kept talking about an OS that never came, I wonder if MS is putting off WinCE development in favor of .Net development on the horizon.

I'm not trying to side with anyone here. I'm simply saying to apply the same logic we apply to desktop software to the PocketPC. If it doesn't work, check to see if someone else fixed it. If not, then fix it yourself and tell everyone about it. If you can't fix it, complain to someone who can until they do.

Pocket PC users have been doing just that since the OS was released. Early adopters do not mind finding and working around bugs because that is exactly what happens when you buy new technology. On the other hand, these early adopters expect that they will not be dealing with the same obvious bugs two years after commercial software has been released.

Worse, those who follow the early adopters expect a minimum of polish to the technology. Why should every PPC user beat his or her head against the same wall to get basic functions to work? Middle to late adopters are not willing to put out this kind of effort.

I have been optimizing my PPC's since I purchased my first one about two years ago. After much effort, I arrived at my current optimization scheme. I avoid using MS software on my PPC as much as possible and use as many third party tools as I can find to deal with the shortcomings of the PPC OS. Unfortunately, this only fixes some of the problems with the PPC platform.

Rob Borek

03-23-2002, 02:17 AM

Here's my top ten list of PPC 2K2 woes:

1. Popping sound (no, I haven't installed the fix yet, I'm wary of it after reading that it hasn't worked for some people)

That's a Compaq sound driver issue.

2. I pay Fido $100 for GPRS each month, but still can't use it with my iPaq. I've had other people look at the setup, called Fido, called Microsoft ("Call compaq" they say), called Compaq (call Motorola, they say). Meanwhile I can actually use it on my wife's ancient tech Palm Vx. Go figure.

What's the exact problem? Have you installed EUU1? There are quite a few people successfully using the Pocket PC and GPRS, so I wonder if it isn't some small little setting somewhere, or a problem with Connection Mangler (Arne Hess uses GPRS quite a lot - check out his site at http://www.pocketpcwriter.net)

3. Round tripping for Word is a joke. I lose all my formatting, I even lose documents. All I want is the basic features - keep the bob stuff out, but give me tables, give me spell checking

No argument there. Was one of the major gripes brought up in November at the MVP Summit to the dev teams.

4. Pocket IE is highly erratic. It can stall for a minute or more at times, and just quit without warning.

Can't say I've experienced this problem, so I have no idea.

5. Alarms. Thanks for screwing this up, Microsoft.

Yep. Brought up as well. I miss my repeating alarms.

6. Two stage editing of contacts. What is up with that.

I think this is more of a preference issue - some people want the summary presented, some want to be able to change the contact without further steps.

7. Lack of a "close app" button. Discussed to death, but Microsoft to this day "still doesn't get it". I actually got a good chuckle out of all the apologism flying around last fall for this one... "well, it still doesn't have a close app one click button... but hey, it manages memory better!" Meanwhile I remember back to being told how even during the PPC 2K dev conferences, all the software people were polled and said they wanted a close app button, and the Microsoft techs, those "good people" as Jason says, were struck dumfounded. Why would you want that...

This one has been brought up since the Pocket PC 2000 days... they compromised and put in a "minimize" button. Still hate it. It's one of those things where Microsoft thinks its smarter for them to manage memory (and memory management in 2002 is much better than in 2000).

8. The 50% battery warning is completely useless and annoying. Why the hell can't we set the times we want those alarms to go off?

I think this may be more of an OEM issue... not sure though.

9. Connectivity is completely iffy. I have about a 30% success rate checking mail via the PPC when connected via USB. 0% with GPRS. I'm afraid to buy a CF WiFi card for this reason. Wasted money.

I haven't seen any of these problems...

marlof

03-23-2002, 10:45 AM

What's the exact problem? Have you installed EUU1? There are quite a few people successfully using the Pocket PC and GPRS, so I wonder if it isn't some small little setting somewhere, or a problem with Connection Mangler

I did some checking up on GPRS on the Pocket PC 2002 since my last post on this thread, and the more I read the more I feel it's more than just a Microsoft OS limitation. Re Voicestream ( Frank, you listening? ) I've found in the newsgroup an explanation by Jeff McKean who states that Voicestream limits the ports that can be used by GPRS.

Next to that, my GPRS provider (Vodafone Netherlands) just gave me a print out with all the settings on the Pocket PC 2002 (similar to Arne's pages), and everything works. As I wrote: due to a limitation they had installed on their GPRS network previously, it didn't work.

That leaves me wondering why my GPRS network works, using the regular Inbox and using nPOP, but other GPRS networks don't work. But I do realize that before EUU1 most SMTP hosts worked, but some didn't. It might be a similar problem, but I'm not sure. I'll dig into this, and will post an answer when I find something.

Big Honkin' Deal

03-23-2002, 03:48 PM

That leaves me wondering why my GPRS network works, using the regular Inbox and using nPOP, but other GPRS networks don't work. But I do realize that before EUU1 most SMTP hosts worked, but some didn't. It might be a similar problem, but I'm not sure. I'll dig into this, and will post an answer when I find something.

I appreciate the digging Marlof :o You don't know how much time I already wasted trying to resolve this... I hope you come up with a simple fix.

Keep in mind that I have it working on PPC 2000, while the same settings (& SMTP Server) do not work on PPC 2002, that's why I don't think that it's a Voicestream problem.

Frank

marlof

03-23-2002, 05:40 PM

The thing that intrigues me is that other users (mostly European) can access their POP3, SMTP and IMAP without a problem over GPRS. For as long as I don't get a definite answer I will turn this in a collective quest, and see what workarounds/solutions will be posted.

CoffeeKid

03-23-2002, 09:28 PM

Here's my top ten list of PPC 2K2 woes:

1. Popping sound (no, I haven't installed the fix yet, I'm wary of it after reading that it hasn't worked for some people)

That's a Compaq sound driver issue.

Yeah, I know :) But Microsoft knows they owe a lot to the iPaq and Compaq for the success of PPC and it's marketplace explosion, (one could even argue that if it wasn't for the iPaq, PPC would be a non issue even today) and I dunno, if I was the OS, I'd be doing everything I could to help this particular OEM to fix this problem within weeks of it being noticed, not some 5 months after the OS is released.

alex_kac

03-23-2002, 11:58 PM

...if only you guys knew the truth. <sigh>

All things happen for a reason. The Pocket PC team is a hard working bunch of individuals, and I think they know they have a lot to accomplish in your eyes. :)

My opinion is this. The 2002 OS is actually a big improvement in many ways internally - and externally. Going from a 2002 OS to a 2000 OS makes me realize all the UI/ActiveSync/SIP/Control Panel/Networking/Inbox***/Calculator/File Explorer/Reader/MSN Messenger, and IE improvements that make the 2002 OS the first PocketPC where I really use all the aspects.

HOWEVER, I do think that the OS was released prematurely. Some of the bugs in the Pocket Outlook Object Model specifically are horrible. They needed at least 2-3 months more testing. What strikes me as even stranger is that in this case, I didn't hear of many developers who got access to the OS before it was finalized.

Rob Borek

03-24-2002, 05:03 AM

Yeah, I know :) But Microsoft knows they owe a lot to the iPaq and Compaq for the success of PPC and it's marketplace explosion, (one could even argue that if it wasn't for the iPaq, PPC would be a non issue even today) and I dunno, if I was the OS, I'd be doing everything I could to help this particular OEM to fix this problem within weeks of it being noticed, not some 5 months after the OS is released.

Problem is, Microsoft has no knowledge of the driver in question. It would probably take them 5 months to just understand its operation, let alone fix it. You can't just throw some code at a programmer (especially something as low-level as a driver) and expect them to understand it instantly.

Regardless, I have no doubt that the Mobile Devices dev team offered support to Compaq.

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 07:04 AM

But why do people get so emotional about Micro$oft?

Anyone who uses such childish spelling instead of making their points with written discourse isn't worth listening to. Every time I see someone do this, I immediately ignore what they're saying - name calling is not the sign of intelligence. :roll:

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 07:10 AM

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 07:16 AM

What truth, Jason? Is there something we don't know about?

Yes, it's something you don't know about. There's a reason the product seems rushed to market and has some flaws. I wish I could tell you WHY that is, and beat several of you over the head with it, but I can't so I have to sit here with my mouth shut, stewing away, and hope that in a year or two you'll look back, smack your foreheads and go "OH! NOW IT ALL MAKES SENSE..."

What I don't understand is if you hate your Pocket PC 2002 devices so much, why do you keep using them, complaining all the while? At some point you have to accept what it is you bought and take responsibility for the purchase. Sure, there's always a hope they'll release updates to make it better, but you can't pin your hopes on a "maybe".

If you bought Windows XP, and are screaming mad that it doesn't offer flawless voice recognition, how long do you scream for until you give up? I mean, dear God, when I look at the UI and functionality of my cell phone I nearly vomit - it's a useless piece of crap in comparison to almost any PDA on the market. Yet I don't see any of you wailing and gnashing your teeth about all the inequities of your cell phone. And I'm sure it was marketed with all that cool "web access" stuff and other empty promises...

Sell your Pocket PC on ebay, buy a Palm, and life a life of bliss ok? :roll:

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 07:18 AM

So why don't they do something about our complains if they care so much? It's been over six month since PPC 2002 was released.

Do you have any concept of how long it takes Microsoft to code and release software? As much as I wish the Pocket PC team was as fast as a company like Conduits, they're not - they never have been, and they never will be - PERIOD. Big companies do not move quickly - it's just the nature of the beast. :cry:

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 07:19 AM

No real flame throwers, but nice to see you all still call Jason to the mat.

Why is that nice exactly? :?

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 07:32 AM

But Jason (or the others), when you slip into the role of apologist, thats when it gets to be a bit too much.

If that's what you think I'm doing, then I won't bother responding to any of your other points - you clearly don't take me seriously. :?

Did I ever claim that the Pocket PC 2002 OS was bug free? Absolutely not. It has a significant amount of bugs, and some of them are frustrating - it's not like I read the problems you guys have and simply ignore them. Look back even since we re-launched this site and you'll see at least a dozen posts by me talking about the problems with 2002. I don't have blinders on - I'm intimately aware of all the problems the OS has and what Microsoft needs to fix.

The REAL topic of this thread is the unfair hatchet job that The Register did on the Pocket PC. It was an ignorant, uninformed, schlocky piece of writing.

Look back at my original post. I mention Pocket PC 2002 ONCE:

"I'll be the first to admit that the 2002 release has more than a few bugs, but if Orlowski things any software release is bug free, he should go back to chopping veal for a living."

Where in that sentence come across as being an apologist? I admit it has bugs, but my point was the there is NO software that is bug free. Period. Anyone who argues otherwise doesn't know jack about software.

If you're going to slag me, do it for things I say, not by reading in between the lines and inventing "material". Don't take your frustration about 2002 out on me because you "think" I'm saying it's perfect. I'm not, and it sure as heck isn't! :?

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 07:36 AM

Keep in mind that I have it working on PPC 2000, while the same settings (& SMTP Server) do not work on PPC 2002, that's why I don't think that it's a Voicestream problem.

The Inbox on 2000 and 2002 are completely different - 2002 was a complete re-write from scratch. It may LOOk the same, but it's not. It's like saying your settings in Excel and Word are the same - totally different apps. Inbox 2002 may indeed be broken in some way, but you can't compare it to the old one. :)

Big Honkin' Deal

03-24-2002, 08:55 AM

Big Honkin' Deal

03-24-2002, 09:08 AM

The Inbox on 2000 and 2002 are completely different - 2002 was a complete re-write from scratch. It may LOOk the same, but it's not. It's like saying your settings in Excel and Word are the same - totally different apps. Inbox 2002 may indeed be broken in some way, but you can't compare it to the old one. :)

You may be right but this still does not solve my problem.
The only reason I keep bringing it up is because people try to insist that this is somehow a Voicestream problem. :wink:

I'm well aware that there are bugs in every software but there are bugs and there are BUGS

If you market a device as beeing a wireless communicator business PDA and this device can not Communicate wireless plus has problems getting your attention to alert you.. Then these are BUGS that need to be fixed well before a six month time frame..

We all know that MS is already working on the next best thing, so all of us who where promised the next best thing in December 2001 just have to bend over and take it like a man.

All this complaining is annoying the MVP's :lol:

Big Honkin' Deal

03-24-2002, 10:44 AM

Yet I don't see any of you wailing and gnashing your teeth about all the inequities of your cell phone. And I'm sure it was marketed with all that cool "web access" stuff and other empty promises...

Sell your Pocket PC on ebay, buy a Palm, and life a life of bliss ok? :roll:

Just to point out the obvious.... Most people never spend more than $79.- on a cell phone. I have a couple of Ericsson phones and let me tell you, they work as advertised... I guess in the cell phone world you get what you pay for.

How can one not be annoyed when you just spent $650.- to replace your $499.- 7 month old Pocket PC just to end up with a less functional Pocket PC??????????????

Rafe

03-24-2002, 01:56 PM

Rafe

03-24-2002, 02:00 PM

By contrast here you are often critical or derogotory of Symbian (not all the time of course) and even more so Palm. This is the kind of negative reporting you detest so much when it is pointed at PPC - when the shoes on the other foot eh?!

If I, or anyone else on this site, was so ignorant as to state something like "The Palm has horrible battery life, it only lasts 1 hour!", I would hope someone who stand up and correct me. There's OPIONATED reporting (we do that) and there's IGNORANT REPORTING (that's what the Register article was). There's a difference. I don't deny that the Palm is a great device for some people - just not for me. I like to think that the bias that we have on this site comes through as enthusiasm rather than ignorance. 8O

The point I was trying to make is it is unfair to criticse the register when i think you make the self same mistakes. In particular there's been a certain amount of ignorance over Symbian (and I only noticed this because I know about it). The Register has made a mistake (according to you), personally I think they great. This is the first time I have heard someone complain about it like this and given they get though so much news that's very suprising.

On a persoanl note attacking others because you think they're wrong is something I dont like. You can say you think their wrong - just as I'm doing now. Just my opinion though.

rafe

burmashave

03-24-2002, 04:40 PM

What I don't understand is if you hate your Pocket PC 2002 devices so much, why do you keep using them, complaining all the while? At some point you have to accept what it is you bought and take responsibility for the purchase. Sure, there's always a hope they'll release updates to make it better, but you can't pin your hopes on a "maybe".

Jason, I respect your opinions; however, I think there is a vital need to send Microsoft a wake up call. I know you and others have been telling MS what needs to be fixed. On the other hand, MS still does not seem to "get it." I think you touched a nerve with many PPC users, hence the posts.

Back in early 2000, I did not mind the obvious flaws in my Pocket PC, especially because many others noted the same flaws in the official MS newsgroup. We believed that many of these issues would soon be resolved. This is one of the reasons why I remained faithful to Pocket PC. The other was that there was no other platform that offered the same capabilities.

MS has made few important fixes in the last two years. What frustrates me is that I am still dealing with the same flaws, plus new ones, and worse, I read posts every day from new users who are having the same problems I had two years ago.

I am on the verge of giving up on Pocket PC; however, I wish it were not so. The Zaurus I mentioned now seems more powerful to me. I know that if I become an early Linux adopter, I will have to deal with a multitude of bugs, yet have more confidence that these issues will be addressed over time.

I would prefer to remain faithful to the Pocket PC platform. After all, I have a fairly new Pocket PC. Yet, I no longer have any faith that Microsoft is going to take action on important issues, such as the pocket versions of Word, Excel and PIE; ActiveSync instability; OS instability; and many other minor issues.

These issues are not petty annoyances. I have spent the time to figure out how to get around most of them; however, I strongly believe that Pocket PC will not win widespread acceptance until many of these issues are worked out. Those who follow the early adopters have neither the patience nor the skills to deal with a host of technical issues. By ultimately limiting the potential user base, these flaws hurt all PPC users.

I think this is the nerve you touched with your post. Long time users do not see fixes coming down the pike. Many of us have been active PPC proponents. We have purchased expensive hardware. We have waited for needed fixes, while helping other users with work arounds. We believe that PPC cannot make the "big time" while users must confront so many issues just to accomplish basic tasks. When we complain, we often either get the response that MS has been informed of these issues, or we are politely told to "take it or leave it." Neither response inspires confidence in the platform.

All Pocket PC owners have a stake in these issues. Palm never believed that WinCE was a credible threat, and now, no one close to Microsoft believes that there could be a credible threat to Pocket PC. Given the number of unhappy users, I think that attitude is arrogant. Worse, it is the same attitude that ultimately doomed the Palm platform. Several months ago, I gave away my Palm Vx; I don't want to do the same with my Pocket PC.

I will say this again: I now feel the same way about my Pocket PC as I did about my Palm several years ago. Palm was not listening then; Microsoft does not seem to be listening now.

Steve Bush

03-24-2002, 09:48 PM

Name calling is not the sign of intelligence. :roll:

And posting a picture of a blown up Palm handheld or the Palm logo in a urinal is? Please.

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 10:18 PM

Nice attitude.... that should boost PPC popularity.... it's only $650.- what do You expect?? :wink:

No, I'm just saying that Microsoft can't do anything quickly. Look how long it's taking Microsoft to get to the first Service Pack for Windows XP - a very long time! I know it doesn't make the waiting any easier, but you have false expectations if you expect Microsoft to fix the Pocket PC 2002 issues quickly. They've already released the EUU1 update, which fixed some of the problems.

I'm not denying that there are many problems, and I too wish they would get fixed quickly. But that's not the way it works, no matter how much we scream and complain. :D

burmashave

03-24-2002, 10:44 PM

No, I'm just saying that Microsoft can't do anything quickly.

That is kind of ironic, given that MS beat the stuffing out of IBM about 15 years ago -- precisely because IBM could not respond quickly. :wink:

Big Honkin' Deal

03-24-2002, 11:09 PM

Now even less features!

Endless family fun! Spend days configuring and tracking down work around's.

Syncing is overrated!

More Pop in speakers.... Less Pop in email!

Pocket Versions of the Software You know.... Sort off

Stay Connected to Your Most Essential Information*
(* works best when physically attached to your work PC)

This maybe fixed in your next device!

Free Passport Account!

Taking Pre-Orders Now!
:lol:

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 11:52 PM

And posting a picture of a blown up Palm handheld or the Palm logo in a urinal is? Please.

Touche. :roll:

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 11:55 PM

Just to point out the obvious.... Most people never spend more than $79.- on a cell phone. I have a couple of Ericsson phones and let me tell you, they work as advertised... I guess in the cell phone world you get what you pay for.

Well, I paid $250 for my Samsung phone, and it has some strange bugs too. And has Samsung released a patch for it? Nope. I just suffer through it. I don't think that's OK mind you, but I just wanted to point out that probably every consumer electronic device I own is less than perfect in some way. :)

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 11:56 PM

How can one not be annoyed when you just spent $650.- to replace your $499.- 7 month old Pocket PC just to end up with a less functional Pocket PC??????????????

I can understand why you'd be frustrated, not being able to get email, but I for one would NEVER go back to Pocket PC 2000 - even with the bugs, 2002 offers me way more out of the box than 2000 did. To me, it's an improvement.

I think some people are completed fixated on the bugs in 2002 and not the benefits - it DID give us some good stuff too ya know. :-)

Jason Dunn

03-24-2002, 11:57 PM

Jason Dunn

03-25-2002, 12:08 AM

Jason, I respect your opinions; however, I think there is a vital need to send Microsoft a wake up call. I know you and others have been telling MS what needs to be fixed. On the other hand, MS still does not seem to "get it."

Fair enough. I don't disagree with you there - I passed this URL to Kevin Shields, the new manager of the Mobile Devices team. But you seem to have an expectation that if a few hundred people complain about a bug, Microsoft acknowledges it's a bug and logs it as something they need to fix, that a patch will be out in a matter of weeks. As much as I wish that were the case, that isn't the way Microsoft works. Trust me when I say that they're not ignoring you guys, they DO hear about the bugs, and they do know they need to fix them.

What I'm doing in most of these posts is telling you guys that expecting a patch within a few weeks, or even months, of bugs cropping up isn't possible. The EUU1 was released in January I believe for most devices - that's roughly four months after the devices launched, and it fixed some nasty inverted DNS issues. It was also the very first XIP patch they ever did. It didn't fix all the problems, but it fixed the show-stopper bugs (popping is irritating, but it's not a show-stopper).

If you'd prefer that I ignore reality and give you a "rah rah, give 'em hell!" cheer instead, I can do that. But I normally prefer to acknowledge the problem, agree that it needs fixing, then tell you the odds of that happening right away. :-) I have the advantage of being a little on the "inside" of things, but the curse in that is knowing the reality of some scenarios - and reality isn't always pretty. :cry:

This thread is a prime example of why it sucks running a web site sometimes - everyone seems to want a piece of my hide some days. I was having such an awesome day until I returned to see all this! :?

Chubbergott

03-25-2002, 12:33 AM

Anyone who uses such childish spelling instead of making their points with written discourse isn't worth listening to. Every time I see someone do this, I immediately ignore what they're saying - name calling is not the sign of intelligence. :roll:

:roll: What a shame that you're distracted by such tiddly things.

Heck, if I had such an attitude toward those who rant on like geese on steroids about how Microsoft products (happy now?) are better simply because they're Microsoft products, I'd have missed that self-righteous little dig.

And if you weren't so photosensitive to the spelling of your beloved corporation, you'd see that I wasn't having a dig in that post and that I even had something nice to say about Microsoft. But of course, you missed that.

Chubbergott

03-25-2002, 12:51 AM

Yes, it's something you don't know about. There's a reason the product seems rushed to market and has some flaws. I wish I could tell you WHY that is, and beat several of you over the head with it, but I can't so I have to sit here with my mouth shut, stewing away, and hope that in a year or two you'll look back, smack your foreheads and go "OH! NOW IT ALL MAKES SENSE..."

What the heck use is that to consumers!? maybe the reason the product seems rushed to market is that the product has been rushed to market!? So, why the secret? Is it that Microsoft has seen Palm's new OS and are scared by it? You make it sound so sinister and dark - like your contact hangs around multi-storey car parks coughing a smoker's cough as he tells you the inner secrets of that monoloth known as Microsoft.

Advertisment
"Buy the new PocketPC! It looks like it's been rushed to market but trust us, it hasn't and one day, you'll realise why" - is that what you're saying?

What I don't understand is if you hate your Pocket PC 2002 devices so much, why do you keep using them, complaining all the while? At some point you have to accept what it is you bought and take responsibility for the purchase. Sure, there's always a hope they'll release updates to make it better, but you can't pin your hopes on a "maybe".

Now there's true blue Microsoft! Buyer beware! Heard of consumer rights?

Customer: My product isn't working.
Microsoft: It's your fault for buying it! No go away and start saving your pennies for the upgrade!

Sell your Pocket PC on ebay, buy a Palm, and live a life of bliss ok? :roll:

Hehe! That's the best advice I've heard on this topic so far!

Jason Dunn

03-25-2002, 02:02 AM

Long time users do not see fixes coming down the pike.

I can only point out to out that fixes are never pre-announced. Did you know about the EUU1 update prior to its release? Probably not. Will you know about the next fix before it comes out? No.

For all you know, there could be a massive service pack of some kind right around the corner, and this entire argument would be pointless.

What if that's true? 8)

burmashave

03-25-2002, 02:03 AM

Fair enough. I don't disagree with you there - I passed this URL to Kevin Shields, the new manager of the Mobile Devices team. But you seem to have an expectation that if a few hundred people complain about a bug, Microsoft acknowledges it's a bug and logs it as something they need to fix, that a patch will be out in a matter of weeks.

First of all, Jason, thanks for hanging in the face of withering fire. You and the other MVP's serve as the customer relations department for Microsoft -- an often unenviable position. I understand that if you guys did not listen to unhappy users, no one probably would.

If you pass nothing else on to Microsoft, tell them that there are some severely disenchanted users at a time when alternatives are on the horizon. I would guess that those who are the most disenchanted have had their PPC's for a long time. We can wait a few months to a year for a patch or improvement; however, many of the issues I see date to the original release of Pocket PC about two years ago.

I want Pocket PC to succeed because I have invested in it, and I see tremendous potential for the platform. On the other hand, I think that Microsoft needs to learn a lesson from Palm if Pocket PC is to attract a very wide audience: The basic functions must work well, without hassle and without the need to be a technically inclined user. I fully expected the effort I expended when I was on the bleeding edge in early 2000; however, now the technology is two years old, and my patience has been tested.

I could probably live with the current state of PPC on my Casio in terms of functionality. What I do not want to live with is the idea that I have invested heavily in a platform that does not seem to be moving forward. The issues we list are the same ones we posted two years ago. This is not a matter of fixing some bugs; rather, it is a matter of pushing the technology forward.

Again, Jason, I know you are not responsible for our problems, yet I hope that someone can get the message to Microsoft that many PPC adherents are looking for a change in attitude from Microsoft. Two years is too long to wait in the IT industry.

Jason Dunn

03-25-2002, 02:09 AM

Rob Alexander

03-25-2002, 04:55 AM

What the heck use is that to consumers!? maybe the reason the product seems rushed to market is that the product has been rushed to market!?

Yeah, I know it's of no use to consumers or people frustrated with the product. But if you've ever been privy to inside information, you know that it's easy to be very critical when you're ignorant - but when you know the truth it's harder to be critical because you know there are reasons for things.

I don't fault you for being critical though - ignorance is bliss. :roll:

:P Jason, that's just a load of crap and if you don't know it, you should. This isn't a social affair where good intentions matter, or a school project where you can bring in a doctor's note for poor performance. These may be toys to you, but they're business tools for lots of us. When they don't get it right, it matters. When they remove features from one version to the next, it matters. When they fail to respond to bugs, it matters. Results matter!

Why don't those of us who complain switch to Palms? Because we are invested in this platform. We're invested by thousands of dollars in the hardware and software, by hundreds hours of time and by significant mindshare (learning how to solve problems using this specific product). In short, we're invested by making ourselves dependent on this platform. This isn't a hobby. The PPC team may be the nicest bunch of guys on Earth; I'm sure their mothers are very proud. But this is business and there's nothing I need to know, or should have to know, that isn't contained within the body of this iPaq. The TRUTH is in my hand and nothing else matters. :!:

When I go to buy a Microsoft product, I don't say, "I haven't quite got all the money, but if you only knew why, you'd understand." Would you accept it if your boss told you that while handing you a partial paycheck? In this transaction, I did my part 100%. I paid every single penny they asked for. I expect 100% of what they promised. But neither Compaq nor Microsoft did that. Microsoft took out features, for gosh sake. They didn't just fail to fix a bug or overlook a usability tweak. They went out of their way to remove features that we depended on. What could you possibly tell me that would change that? (Hint: Nothing)

:idea: So here's the real message the PPC team needs to take from this thread if they read it. All of us non-MVP customers are conditional customers. You've done nothing to gain our loyalty, so you can't depend on some sort of "PPC Zen" to carry you along through rough times. We wish the team well and feel bad if you have some sort of secret problem that's keeping you from responding to our needs, but that's really not our problem. In spite of the faults, you can expect us to continue buying your products as long as they're the best choice out there. But as soon as something better comes along, we're outta here. So you'd better start listening, because if you don't, eventually someone else will.

Rafe

03-25-2002, 12:29 PM

I dont own a Pocket PC. I use Symbian stuff. I feel it is a moral obligation to help you out!

Just curious: are Symbian devices perfect? No bugs? No flaws? No ways the software could be improved? :lol:

Of course there's away everything could be improved. The Nokia 9210 was buggy when first releasd but since then we have had 5 updates and now the edvice is very stable and has no major bugs that I know about. Given that this was the first Symbian 6 device I think that's impressive. If you go back to the Psions they were almost perfect when released.

My personal opinion is sure the software could be improved - but there isn't anything that is really essential. A PDF viewer might be good - but then there's 3rd party available software for that. Same might be said of picture messaging or flash SMS. The e-mail client has been commented on but with HTML preview attachement support - (including open non native fiel types), POP, IMAP, Folders, multiple accounts, integration with contact, SMS and Faxes as part of inbox etc. etc it is very good.

I think this is somewht in contrast with the PPC. I always thought the 9210 is a business power users machine whereas the PPC is more 'flashy' and not as powerful for business/ serious use.

Rafe

ChrisD

03-25-2002, 03:24 PM

Hi,
As the author of the Bug List, I want to put a few things straight:

I was not contacted in any way shape or form by The Register for this article. I have no association with The Register at all.

I created the Bug List to keep users informed about problems with their devices so they could find solutions to them. Generally there are workarounds or fixes to these problems which I list as well. Also, Microsoft has released Service Pack 1 for the Pocket PC to fix some of these issues.

Also, this is not the first release of the bug list. I created a Bug List for the original Pocket PC as well.

Overall, in my opinion, The Register took 2 separate events and tied them together without any reference to join them.

I can see the point that this release has more bugs than normal, however the complexity of switching directions on functions like the infamous Connection Manager cause some of the issues. While other bugs, just look like oversights by the dev team.

It's really up to Microsoft to choose how to address the bugs in the current release as well as how future beta testing will be handled.

Rob Borek

03-25-2002, 04:13 PM

:P Jason, that's just a load of crap and if you don't know it, you should. This isn't a social affair where good intentions matter, or a school project where you can bring in a doctor's note for poor performance. These may be toys to you, but they're business tools for lots of us. When they don't get it right, it matters. When they remove features from one version to the next, it matters. When they fail to respond to bugs, it matters. Results matter!

What Jason was saying is that it doesn't come down to good intentions, just that it's hard to be critical when you know more about what is going on. It's a general statement, not anything in specific, and is true in all facets of life. For example, it can be hard to criticize your employer (and not just because you fear losing your job :P) because you know so much more going on inside the company.

Believe me, myself and the rest of the MVPs read and hear (err... read) a lot of stuff daily on this bug, that bug, problems with Connection Mangler (heck... we complained about Connection Mangler before it was even released!), removed features, the dreaded "X doesn't close"... we pass on the info as best we can to Microsoft and try and get the situation resolved. Will it be a fast resolution? Probably not, as Microsoft does not work fast when it comes to bug fixes (especially in the Mobile Devices area, where fixes are much more complex, both programmatically and logistically). We get the brunt of the complaints. People confuse us for Microsoft employees (we're not) and take it out on us. In the end, us MVPs are nothing more than super-enthusiasts who love the platform, want to make it even better, and want it to succeed.

burmashave

03-25-2002, 05:24 PM

It's really up to Microsoft to choose how to address the bugs in the current release as well as how future beta testing will be handled.

Chris, unfortunately for Pocket PC users, you are absolutely 100% correct in this assumption. Microsoft will decide, and if the past two years are any indication of attentiveness to their customers, we can expect that Microsoft will not address the most egregious problems.

I would bet that nearly every PPC user who has used Pocket Word or Excel has been disappointed with the fact that they are not fully compatible with the desktop versions.

From reading the posts in the MS Pocket PC newsgroup, I would bet that a substantial percentage of users have had serious difficulty getting ActiveSync to work. I would further guess that many of these users have had partial or full data loss from ActiveSync issues.

I would bet that most users who purchased wifi cards have been disappointed with the limitations posed by PIE. Again, from the posts in the newsgroup, it is clear that many of these users have had problems with Inbox.

I would bet that none but the technically inclined understand how Pocket PC memory management works. I cannot recall reading any posts that claim that either the system in PPC 2000 or PPC 2002 makes sense for users.

I have trouble figuring out the PPC connection manager, despite the fact that I am technically inclined and determined to make it work. How are less technically inclined users supposed to figure it out?

These issues are not bugs. They are design issues, which are worse than bugs. We have heard the mantra that Microsoft has been informed. We have heard the mantra that we should be patient. We have heard the mantra that Microsoft may be releasing fixes tomorrow and that the company is keeping these improvements a big secret.

We are impatient now because many of us have been waiting two years, not two weeks nor two months as I keep seeing the MVP's claim. I'm definitely not going to wait two more years in vain while competing products exist, and I am certain that I am not the sole possessor of that attitude.

Microsoft will decide which issues to address and when to fix them. It is a pity that Microsoft's inactivity will ultimately turn away many of its most dedicated Pocket PC users.