Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

[Ed Hansberry]

I was at CeBIT in Hannover Germany last week as you know and saw some really cool stuff. Of course I focused on mobile devices, primarily smart phones, PDA's and hybrid devices from Compaq, NEC, Sony, Hewlett Packard, Palm, Sony-Ericsson, etc.<br /><br />I walked up to the Sony booth hoping to get some hands on time with the new <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=500">PEG-NR70</a> announced last week. They didn't have one, and surprisingly, until I showed it to them on the web, had never seen one before, which makes me question the US timetable.<br /><br />Anyway, they had a Clie mockup that was about 7 feet tall with a large screen TV in it, and a real Clie on a stand in front of it with a camera pointing to the screen. Wires ran from the camera to the large screen and it was showing some impressive video and pictures on the big screen, presumably showing you what was on the Sony's screen. The frame rate and color was awesome. I figured this had to be some new 66MHz device given what it was doing, so I stepped around to take a closer look at the real Clie. It wasn't even ON! I asked the Sony rep if the presentation was coming from another Clie I wasn't seeing. "No. The presentation isn't real. It is just to get your attention." (click on the images below for full size photos)<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/cebit2002/fakesony1.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/cebit2002/fakesony1.jpg" /></a> <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/cebit2002/fakesony2.jpg"><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/cebit2002/fakesony2.jpg" /></a><br /><br />COME ON PEOPLE! How ridiculous. It is one thing to create a presentation that is pushing the device beyond its intended use, it is another to just totally fake it. So, I guess Palm licensees have given up on telling you that you don't need something until they have it for you like color, sound, etc. Now they just make you think it comes with it and in the case of the Clie, you won't notice that instead of the big screen TV quality video clips, you'll be getting something that doesn't even run full screen and has a frame rate well south of 15 after you buy it. :-(<br /><br />Not a week goes by I don't see some parallel to <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/cebit2002/fakefakefake.wav">Seinfeld</a>, and this is just another example. :-D

[Kre]

Thats just pathetic. Im tellin ya, Sony should make a pocket pc.

[Andy Sjostrom]

:lol:
This is what you have to do, when all you have is the equivalence of a good ol' 286.

[Dan East]

So what was actually driving the monitor? Perhaps a Pocket PC with a VGA card? Now that would be a cool demo. A huge mockup of a Pocket PC with the real Pocket PC in front of it. However in this case, the Pocket PC would actually be driving the monitor, playing full-length motion pictures. Nah, we've been-there-done-that over 2 years ago. How about a Pocket PC emulating a Palm on the big screen?

Dan East

[Brad Adrian]

But, Ed, the real question is:

Did the Wizard give you a heart?

[Chubbergott]

:roll: Shocking that Palm should tell lies like that. it really isn't good enough.

Was it maybe a pre-recorded display (I ask in the context of devices often crashing when being displayed to the public).

I think everybody should stick to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the "what's WindowsCE.NET?" truth.

[Xyress]

Heh - Sony won't make a PocketPC because they can't impose their proprietary memory sticks on everyone. Microsoft wins a point for enforcing standards.

[Gen-M]

Never trust a demo unless it crashes :roll:

[Take1]

I guess Sony figures say and do anything to sell the unit. I wonder if Sony feels left out after MS and Palm got busted by the FTC for deceptive product claims?

This whole thing really makes you feel a sort of.... pathetic sympathy... for Sony who wants so BAD to be just like PPC but can't let their ego get over the fact that MS has them beat at THEIR OWN (multimeida) game. They'll stick with Palm and simply be the little PDA that couldn't quite do it. Perhaps OS6 or something might make their dreams finally come true.

[johnm]

Unbelievable.

To add to my current rant about the total lack of customer service by most companies these days, now a total lack of integrity.

[Dave Conger]

Never trust a demo unless it crashes :roll:


And then you will know it is a Microsoft OS... :wink:

[Uros]

I have visited CeBIT and also saw new Sony device that you write about. They had only one and it looked great. Sad that Sony ignores Microsoft and still strugles with Palm OS.

[Timothy Rapson]

Disturbing.

[Foo Fighter]

No doubt, this is one of the tackiest demo stunts I've ever seen. :roll:

Shame on you Sony! :oops:

As a side note: I keep hearing comments from posters here crying out for Sony to switch to PocketPC instead of PalmOS. No offence, but you guys are clueless. YOU CAN'T SQUEEZE POCKETPC INTO SOMETHING THE SIZE OF THE T615 or NR70. Plain and simple. A PPC powered T615 would require a battery twice the size of the current model. And the internal components are different as well. PPC demands more hardware (and power), so system boards are larger to accommodate more chipsets. You think PPC manufacturers make these devices bigger just for grins? It's because the technology hasn't evolved enough to allow PPC to be shrunk down to the Clie's size. Sony is a master at miniaturization, but the best they could do is mimic the Toshiba Genio.

Hmm...low overhead, low power consumption, flexible design capability....maybe that's why Sony chose PalmOS in the first place? :?

[Ed Hansberry]

Hmm...low overhead, low power consumption, flexible design capability....maybe that's why Sony chose PalmOS in the first place? :?

Then why do they keep trying to cram music, full color and video onto the devices. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Their music implementation leaves a lot to be desired (can't make playlists on the device? Hello!!!!, can't even play music from RAM) and the video running on the anemic hardware just doesn't cut it.

Hence the deceptive display. Why can't they just be honest and say they have a really great PIM and be done with it rather than charging $400 for devices trying to do what Pocket PC's do effortlessly. One or the other Sony. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

YOU CAN'T SQUEEZE POCKETPC INTO SOMETHING THE SIZE OF THE T615 or NR70.


Methinks you need to see the photos of the Mitac device we saw - it's thinner than the Palm V. :-)

[marlof]

We *all* need to see the photo's of the Mitac you saw....

[Foo Fighter]

Then why do they keep trying to cram music, full color and video onto the devices.

Because, so far, they've managed to pull it off without compromising the overall size/battery life of the product. And they even managed to trump PPC in some areas. For example, the N760 has dedicated hardware buttons for controlling MP3 functions, where PPC requires the user to "map" buttons. And, unlike PPC, the Clie Audio player supports VISUALIZATIONS. The only thing still lacking, from both camps, is equalizer support.

PocketPC leads in video playback, it sucks @ss on a PalmOS device. But MP3 playback is no longer an advantage for PPC. Digital audio is digital audio whether it's coming out of a PPC, a Clie, or an iPod.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Their music implementation leaves a lot to be desired (can't make playlists on the device? Hello!!!!, can't even play music from RAM)

Have you sampled a track on the N760? The audio output is even better than most PPC devices I have used. The only failings I've found are that the volume doesn't go as high as the iPaq's...and again, no equalizer support. As for playlists, that is one the most popular requests. I bet the next version of Audio Player will incorporate playlist support.

Why can't they just be honest and say they have a really great PIM and be done with it [snip] One or the other Sony. :roll:

Be done with it? Are you saying they should dump the multimedia features? That's crazy. 8O

rather than charging $400 for devices trying to do what Pocket PC's do effortlessly.


Effortlessly? Oh, I wouldn't say that. I've seen PPC stutter and hiccup quite a few times when playing video clips and MP3s.

I'll never understand why you believe that the Win32 platform is the only thing that can produce digital audio/video. My Rio 600 produces better quality audio than an iPaq, and I have no idea what embedded software it runs. Granted, it has preset equalizer settings that the iPaq lacks, but still it's a better digital media experience.

[Foo Fighter]

We *all* need to see the photo's of the Mitac you saw....


What is the Mitac? That the name of the company or the product? Who makes it? Photos Photos...bring on the photos! :D

[Jason Dunn]

...And, unlike PPC, the Clie Audio player supports VISUALIZATIONS.

...Digital audio is digital audio whether it's coming out of a PPC, a Clie, or an iPod.


To be fair, Pocket Player by Conduits from three years ago had visualizations. They weren't the most impressive things, but I really liked watching them. :-)

Regarding digital audio, I agree with you, but the ease of use is a huge factor - do you still need to transcode and do many steps to get the audio onto the Sony? That's one thing I've heard was a poor user experience.

[Foo Fighter]

[/b]
To be fair, Pocket Player by Conduits from three years ago had visualizations. They weren't the most impressive things, but I really liked watching them. :-)[/b]

I've wondered why Microsoft hasn't adopted this feature, but I'm guessing it has something to do with power consumption. You're much better off just switching the display off. To be honest, I think visuals are a waste of power..and time. But that's just my opinion.

but the ease of use is a huge factor - do you still need to transcode and do many steps to get the audio onto the Sony?

I don't own an N760, but from what I've seen, it uses a drag'n drop interface to transfer music to and from the device. An application window similar to the My_PocketPC folder acts as the middleware. There are stills some limitations the audio player. It only plays MP3s @ 128bitrate. So tracks encoded at say 190 get truncated during conversion. That sucks.

[Timothy Rapson]

This stunt was SO disturbing I wrote to Sony about it yesterday. Wonder if I will get a nice "no comment" response? Of course I will.

Regarding size of PPCs. I think that with the new X-scales using less power at 133 MZ than a dragonball and adding graphics, MMC/SD support, and other functions on the chip, it may be slower than a 66 MZ Dragonball, but it might make just as small a motherboard/display/battery package. The PPCs have come closer with every iteration. The Genio is just as small as the standard PALMs and it has dual slots. Certainly the size differences between the Genio and the current Sony 760C is not significant. The Palm V form factor is next. I think as soon as next month. We will see.



No doubt, this is one of the tackiest demo stunts I've ever seen. :roll:

Shame on you Sony! :oops:

As a side note: I keep hearing comments from posters here crying out for Sony to switch to PocketPC instead of PalmOS. No offence, but you guys are clueless. YOU CAN'T SQUEEZE POCKETPC INTO SOMETHING THE SIZE OF THE T615 or NR70. Plain and simple. A PPC powered T615 would require a battery twice the size of the current model. And the internal components are different as well. PPC demands more hardware (and power), so system boards are larger to accommodate more chipsets. You think PPC manufacturers make these devices bigger just for grins? It's because the technology hasn't evolved enough to allow PPC to be shrunk down to the Clie's size. Sony is a master at miniaturization, but the best they could do is mimic the Toshiba Genio.

Hmm...low overhead, low power consumption, flexible design capability....maybe that's why Sony chose PalmOS in the first place? :?

[Foo Fighter]

This stunt was SO disturbing I wrote to Sony about it yesterday. Wonder if I will get a nice "no comment" response? Of course I will.

LOL! Good luck getting any response.

Regarding size of PPCs. I think that with the new X-scales using less power at 133 MZ than a dragonball and adding graphics, MMC/SD support, and other functions on the chip, it may be slower than a 66 MZ Dragonball, but it might make just as small a motherboard/display/battery package.

Xscale and "system on a chip" technologies will significantly reduce the size of PPC hardware. Probably not to the size of a T615, but somewhere in that ballpark. I think the biggest change is going to come with the inception of OLED display technology. That combined with the afore mentioned hardware, could bring PPC down to a practical package. But I think we are still two or three hardware generations away from that point. Give it 2 or 3 years.

The PPCs have come closer with every iteration.

Yep. Every incremental update makes the platform less oppressive to me. But as I said, I think its going to be two or three generational releases before the platform gets it completely right in regards to size, battery life, usability, cost, and so forth.

The Genio is just as small as the standard PALMs and it has dual slots.

Not quite as small or light..but it's getting closer.

Certainly the size differences between the Genio and the current Sony 760C is not significant.

No, but the battery life sure is. Also the Genio is significantly thicker than the Clie.

The Palm V form factor is next. I think as soon as next month. We will see.

Actually, they already were at that point with the Aero 1500 series. It was probably the best form factor I have ever seen in a CE device. Unfortunately it also had the WORST performance I have ever seen in a CE device.

[Timothy Rapson]

But one of the great strengths of the Palm platform is the strength the early MS DOS PCs had over the Ataris, Commodores, and Apples; they were unfinished.

The slots on a PC meant that you were forced to add a graphics card, in/out card, drives of your choice and just as important--software. It also meant that you *could* add those things.

The Palm now has the best word processor choices by far because Palm didn't have to include one to get a leg up on PPC. PPC had to include those apps to get some purchase as it tried to scale the huge Palm Momentum Mountain.

Sony can add features and I personally like the way they are doing it. Built-in camera is a wonderful addition. Music requires special chip because the base processor isn't strong enough to do it alone? Great, add the chip. Software not fitting for high resollution color? Write your own paint/noter program. Now, we even see soft grafitti and twistable screens. Cool stuff.

I don't think Sony must just give up and try to make all Palm M100 clones any more than Microsoft must. I think Sony, Palm, Handspring, and Handera still have the better platform overall. The 66 MZ dragonballs and the StrongArm models that are just around the corner will just be another test. Sony not only need not give up on trying to force a Palm OS model to do what a PPC should, they should be lauded for accomplishing a great deal of it in some ways and outdoing it in others.

Right now, full moving video is about the only thing left. I have to admit that I've seen very little video on a PPC. But, *so far* I don't think it worth much anyway.


And I should add that I respect that this is a PPC board and if you take offence to these remarks I apologize and won't put more of such on here. Thanks for a fine site and for the heads up on this Sony subtrefuge. I will be less trusting of Sony than I would otherwise have been.




Hence the deceptive display. Why can't they just be honest and say they have a really great PIM and be done with it rather than charging $400 for devices trying to do what Pocket PC's do effortlessly. One or the other Sony. :roll:

[Foo Fighter]

I don't think Sony must just give up and try to make all Palm M100 clones any more than Microsoft must.

Of course not. I think Ed just made that comment because he wants Sony to give up and go away. ;)

I think Sony, Palm, Handspring, and Handera still have the better platform overall.

At this point and time, PalmOS is still by far the more practical platform. Certainly more efficient. But over time, PPC could become the more appealing platform for development. Just the fact that the features and hardware are consistent accross the platform makes it easier to target app design, where PalmOS is becoming increasingly fragmented (different processors, resolutions, form factors).

Sony not only need not give up on trying to force a Palm OS model to do what a PPC should, they should be lauded for accomplishing a great deal of it in some ways and outdoing it in others.

And Sony managed to deliver digital entertainment (at least the audio segment) at a lower price than PocketPC can match.

Sorry, Ed...but that is how a competitive business environment works. Matching your competitors, while offering your product for a lower price is the name of the game. And for this Sony should give it up? :roll:

Right now, full moving video is about the only thing left. I have to admit that I've seen very little video on a PPC. But, *so far* I don't think it worth much anyway.

That's exactly what I said in a discussion at PDABuzz. PocketPC's biggest advantage is based on it's multimedia capabilties, which is impressive to say the least. But what happens when the Palm platform delivers those same features? As both platforms reach parity, I can see a point in time coming when we will be arguing which platform is better..based on such details as video compression and audio bitrates.

[HR]

So first Sony invents a film critic, now it fakes a display demo. Hmmm, any idea what equipment they were using when they faked the man on the moon video?

[Robotbeat]

PocketDivx (mpeg, divx, mp3) has a 10-band equalizer. It also has good video decoding, like 24+ fps divx fullscreen with mp3 audio with dithering turned on.

Palms can play sound only like a PC without a soundcard can play audio CDs and make beeps. Sure, you can control which song is playing and stuff, but your computer isn't really playing the song. The DSP in the CD-ROM drive is playing it. You can't reprogram that CD-ROM's DSP to play mp3s or wma, you need to buy a soundcard. You can't buy a real soundcard for a Palm, though. It's standard on Pocket PCs for over 2 generations, now.

Clie's sound isn't anymore advanced than a cheap portable mp3 player.

66mhz? oh, nifty. how advanced. you finally got even with the first wince pda device (how old is it, again?).

BTW, Dragonball isn't more efficient than StrongARM or XScale (clock cycle for clock cycle). You were spoon-fed that lie from Palm (and Motorola). If anything, it's the other way around. If you want to know why I said that, I'll tell you, if you want.

[Robotbeat]

Hey, foo! In regards to your last comment, the PPC already won the video compression/bitrate contest. Divx, asf, wma (including variable bitrate), realaudio, realvideo, midi (software audio), mpeg, mp3 (including variable bitrate), etc.