New Cliés in Japan

[Tycho Morgan]

<a href="http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3123">http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3123</a><br /><br />I arrived home today to find that Sony has released two rather innovative new Palm OS devices in the Japanese market that look to be as cool as the PalmOS 4.1 will allow. They both utilize a completely new form factor, an even higher resolution screen, and a processor with an (almost) respectable speed. It's almost a shame that this is PalmOS, because with a few minor tweaks this could make one killer Pocket PC. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/nr071.jpg" /><br /><br />Why don't we look at the numbers?<br />•320 x 480 16 bit Screen<br />•ATRAC3 and MP3 audio capable<br />•Built in thumb-keyboard and virtual Graffiti area <br />•Clamshell design<br />•Pivoting Screen<br />•Weights Seven ounces <br />•66 MHz Dragonball Processor <br />•The PEG-NR70V model has a built in Camera <br />•16 MB of RAM and 10 MB of Flash<br /><br />I think the flip design while possibly fragile could be a real winner and the screen isn't anything to cry about. It does still use PalmOS, and that certainly subtracts a hefty sum from the appeal of this device. There isn't any clue as to what this device will cost, but I get the feeling that it isn't going to be cheep, my beat would put it on par with or more likely above the current crop of Pocket PCs. If this device is going to upset the Pocket PC, it's going to have to be cheaper than a Pocket PC; otherwise, there really isn’t any point. <br /><br />Thanks to Chris Coulter, Michael Creasy, and countless others for pointing me to this one.

[donkthemagicllama]

if only it had a 400MHz Xscale and ran PocketPC...

[donkthemagicllama]

http://www.palminfocenter.com/ is reporting $465 for one model and $385 for the other... not sure of the differences between the two, but their article probably explains it...

[alee]

... and a processor with an (almost) respectable speed. It's almost a shame that this is PalmOS...

... it does still use PalmOS, and that certainly subtracts a hefty sum from the appeal of this device.

I dunno about you, but my Compaq H3835 feels roughly as fast as my Palm m505. Just because it doesn't run your desired operating system doesn't make it an instant losing proposition.

I happily use both devices, as well as some other non-MSFT, non-PALM devices. For me they each serve a unique purpose... there are places I would never tote my Pocket PC, and just as many places where my Palm is miserably equipped. Sigh... Pocket PC propoganda is sometimes just as tiring as Palm simplicity propoganda.

Since I doubt any of us have even touched the new Sony, it seems a little to pass judgment, no?

/rant

Pricewise, it looks like it will be in the PPC price range... between 350 for no built-in camera, to about 450ish on the high end -- if you take the Yen prices and assume that Sony is not going to pad the price for the US market.

I for one am very excited about the new Sony, even though I probably won't get one unless it has a good wireless solution.

[mar2k]

Innovation like this is fantastic for lovers of both Palms and Pocket PCs. It will force other OEMs of both platforms to continue to come up with new and daring designs.

They are using the most powerful Dragonball processor made to date with the 66MHz CPU. I'm sure if they had their way they would have had an XScale processor inside. Only thing holding back Sony now is the PalmOS 4.x. You can bet that once PalmOS 5 is released supporting ARM processors that Sony will without a doubt have an XScale Palm on the market soon afterwards finally with the horsepower that Sony has wanted for multimedia etc since day one.

I myself will never purchase a Clie, now or in the future, as long as they are using proprietary technologies such as Memory Stick. That said, I truly admire what Sony is doing with their PDAs after a slow start. Better PalmOS devices will mean better Pocket PCs for consumers to choose from. A win win, I'd say. :D

[alee]

Innovation like this is fantastic for lovers of both Palms and Pocket PCs. It will force other OEMs of both platforms to continue to come up with new and daring designs... Better PalmOS devices will mean better Pocket PCs for consumers to choose from. A win win, I'd say. :D

Thank you! Couldn't have said it better. :D

[Robotbeat]

I just wish that Pocket PCs had that resolution! That is 6 times the resolution of most Palms!

If we ever get PPCs with 640 x 480 resolution with 400+MHz XScale, I will be the happiest person in the world!

I hope you are right about the forcing other OEMs to innovate. If not, then Sony takes most of the high-end market and the PPCs lose. That's not going to happen, though. I just pray that we get VGA resolution before that thing comes out! I am really starting to get paranoid, here. When will XScale be released? When will a higher resolution display for PPC be released? I have had the best class of multimedia PDA since 1999, and if this thing comes out with a 400MHz processor and more RAM, I am scared that I would need to buy a Palm in order to stay on top! Then, the only thing holding the Pocket PC up on the multimedia stage would be the software. I would never, ever buy Palm, though.

[Robotbeat]

I don't have to "like all PDAs for their best qualities". I can be prejudiced against Palm if I want, and so can Jason, even though he is not doing that right now.

[Robotbeat]

Another thing, this thing is definitely at least as big as an iPAQ.

[alee]

I just wish that Pocket PCs had that resolution! That is 6 times the resolution of most Palms!
I think what's even more significant here is the pixel density... Sony is packing a ton of pixels into a very small space. We are slowly but surely approaching printed page quality. Imagine ClearType on a screen like that!

[alee]

I don't have to "like all PDAs for their best qualities". I can be prejudiced against Palm if I want, and so can Jason, even though he is not doing that right now.

You're welcomed to be as prejudiced as you want, but it's a very narrow-minded way of thinking. There are a ton of great devices out there once you leave the Palm and Pocket PC camps.

[michael]

http://www.palminfocenter.com/ is reporting $465 for one model and $385 for the other... not sure of the differences between the two, but their article probably explains it...


I think one doesn't have the camera.

[mel]

Can anyone guess why Sony is not interested in building a WinCE device? Is it simply a marketshare issue or is it something related to the XBox vs Playstation rivalry?

[Tycho Morgan]

Can anyone guess why Sony is not interested in building a WinCE device? Is it simply a marketshare issue or is it something related to the XBox vs Playstation rivalry?


I don't have a clue why not, but I can assure you that it isn't related to that. You'll notice that the Playstation doesn't have a memory stick. This is becasue the division of sony that makes the playsation and the division of sony that makes the computers, cameras, and PDAs are rather seperate, and may not be on the best of terms with eachother.

Hope this helps!
Cheers,

[popko]

Can anyone guess why Sony is not interested in building a WinCE device? Is it simply a marketshare issue or is it something related to the XBox vs Playstation rivalry?


Playstation (both 1 and 2) vs. Xbox can a reason here. Also, almost all other Japanese companies are doing WinCE or PPC devices (except Sharp, I think). So maybe Sony didn't wannt to have to compete with them.

[Chima]

I'd agree with most of Mar2K's perspective on this. The biggest plus for us PPC users has to be raising the bar for all OEMs. It definitely is not beyond the reach of Compaq, Toshiba and the rest to match specs like these.

It is interesting watching the PalmOS and PocketPC battle play out- I have been waiting almost 2 years for PalmOS to 'lose', and that day is not yet in sight. The things that keep people in the PalmOS camp are still there: ease of use, a large community of non-geeks (!), a massive amount of software, small software footprints, and on and on and on.....

I am a physician, and in the time that I have had my Ipaq (18months), I have seen the number of Palm/Sony/Handspring users around me grow, with next to no converts to the PPC camp. The new Sony machine will only help the Palm camp, and it is naive to believe otherwise. It is indeed a shame that it is not an XScale 400 in that machine, but for the near future, the losers are us!

Don't misunderstand me- I still would not move back to the Palm camp, nor do I think that OS is necessarily the better one for the long haul. PPC works better for what I want. But then again, I thought the same about my beloved Psion 5 which I had to give up, because the world did not feel the same as I did.

[Paragon]

It almost makes me want to switch back to Palm.... There I've said it. Now if you are going to kill me PLEASE be merciful.

Dave

[ThomasC22]

Can anyone guess why Sony is not interested in building a WinCE device? Is it simply a marketshare issue or is it something related to the XBox vs Playstation rivalry?


There are actually a bunch of reasons that Sony doesn't make a PocketPC device. Here are just a few:

1 - Sony doesn't like Microsoft, or at least Microsoft's licensing policies. Sony is one of the companies who testified against Microsoft in the Anti-Trust trial and their primary complaint was that Microsoft raises the price for their OS depending on how they feel about your company so it is understandable that they would not want to deal with this same situation in the handheld space.

2 - There is more chance to innovate with Palm. Palmsource (and I think this is a mistake but...) puts no real requirements on their licensees so Sony is free to do things such as increase the resolution far beyond the other Palm dealers and differentiate itself.

3 - Related to two, Palmsource allows licensees full access to the source code.

4 - The PalmOS is easier to use for MOST people. I'm sorry, but I've done tons of usability tests on this and, whereas the PocketPCOS has more features, most people prefer the PalmOS. The things that draw normal people (not PowerUsers) to the PocketPC is usually the full color screen, higher resolutions, and ability to play music files and those are all things Sony has managed to add to the PalmOS.

5 - The battle between Sony and Microsoft goes beyond the game console. Microsoft is now showing that they have every intention of making a grab for the living room (e.g. TV, Stereo, DVD Player, etc...) and Sony is not very pleased with that. This affects PDA's because they very well could be the key to the digital living room of the future (holding your personal settings, acting as a remote, etc...) so Sony would be foolish to pull an IBM an give Microsoft an in.

6 - Sony can't buy Microsoft. Should Sony choose to they could buy Palm out without even putting much thought into it. This is why I've always thought it was kind of foolish to think that Palm is going to become extinct because should Palm start doing very badly, it would be in Sony's best interest (for the reasons above) to buy Palm and become the sole distributor. I know what you’re thinking, if it makes so much sense why haven't they already bought Palm? Ok, consider this; right now the PalmOS is developed in a communal way with all the different Palm Licensees contributing to its development. So, wouldn't it make more sense for Sony to bleed these other companies dry while gaining free labor on the PalmOS and then buy out Palm when things really go south (and is cheaper because when companies go south their stock tends to go down)?

There are other reasons but I think I've said enough for now. Closing Thought: Don't under estimate Sony, Their Japan's Microsoft and they've been around for way longer.

[Timothy Rapson]

This is the most amazing PDA design I could have ever imagined would be revealed today. It is miles ahead of it's competion.

I am totally blown away. When I compare this to anything on the market, I am just in awe.

A 66 MZ Complex Instruction Set Computer (CISC) vs. the Reduced Instruction Set Computer RISC of 206 MZ ARM chips mean that this is going to make things happen instantly on the efficient Palm OS that would make that little spinning thing on my Ipaq buzzzzzzzzzzz.

I wanted dual slots, but since I would only put a camera in one slot anyway the model with camera built-in is perfect and even though I expect the US prices to be higher than the Japanese ones, $500 for this model with a camera and $400 without just blows anything in the price range away.

I have been waiting so long for just this product, that I am going to be first at the store with any amount of money in my hands that it will take to come home with one on the first day they can be gotten here.

I know this is a PPC board, but the Palm and general PDA boards are all locked up with people looking at these new Sony's. They are just plain ground breaking.

[Chubbergott]

I don't have to "like all PDAs for their best qualities". I can be prejudiced against Palm if I want, and so can Jason, even though he is not doing that right now.


That's fine, just don't go for the mock shock horror when you hear people calling you a fool for believing that Micro$oft is truth incarnate.

Hehe! Some of us prefer a more wholesome experience and appreciate the benefits that can be found in diversity.... some of us don't want to live as robots, but rather like to think for ourselves.

Also, the downfall of many organisations or individuals is when they start to identify themselves as 'what they are not'. If you think of the PocketPC as 'what it is not' (ie, it's not palm so it must be good), you're going to be a most miserable person when you grow up. Rather, treat yourself, other people and the technology you use for what what they are and (some may say more importantly), what they can be.

[ojlittle]

I was reading the Clie review @ the Gadgeteer.com & they hit it right on the money. The new Clie (T615C) is almost enough to make me sell all my PPC's & go with Palm. I own an Audiovox Maestro, Casio E-200, & Clie T615C. I've owned & sold an iPAQ 3835 & Jornada 568 (not counting all of the PPC 2000's) & the Clie is the only one I have not had a problem with. 2 of my Casio's had the BLOD (I'm on my 3rd right now) & my HP had dust & a uneven backlight. The Clie does exactly what it is supposed to do w/o any quality problems. If you read about all of the other Sony releases, the first one is the only one that had any quality issues. The Audiovox that I picked up from CompUSA for $285 hasn't shown any problems either. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the big boys (HP, Compaq, & Casio) had better get their S*it together or the boys at Sony are going to mop them up. I don't know anyone who like to pay $600+ for a piece of equipment that has to be replaced numerous times before you get what you paid for.

[jlc, just jlc]

Can anyone guess why Sony is not interested in building a WinCE device? Is it simply a marketshare issue or is it something related to the XBox vs Playstation rivalry?


My guess is because:

1. Palm lets OS licensees innovate and extend the OS, MS doesn't.
2. Palm devices tend to last longer before needing recharging than PocketPCs and they have more robust and mature applications, and a larger market share and mind share.
3. Sony can buy Palm if they want, but MS is a bit too big for them.

[Roofus]

Sam's cheap shots at Palm are immature and tedious! I own an iPaq 3850 and a Sony Clie and like them both! Palm and Pocket PC's have their own stength's and weaknesses and there is room for both in the computing world. The PDA world should have no place for petty little twits like Sam with his "my Dad is bigger than your Dad" attitude. Get a life!

PS I fired up and old Newton the other day for old times sake and it's realization of the Paragraph handwriting system makes Transcriber look pretty lame! (Unfortunately the hardware is too dated to make it a viable option)

[Mr. Anonymous]

Wow, these devices just seem to have come out of nowhere. Very cool design..I hope we see some cool stuff like this with the next generation of Pocket PC devices!

Until then, hmm, I still have a CD with Hotsync and Palm Desktop around here somewhere...

[Robotbeat]

That's fine, just don't go for the mock shock horror when you hear people calling you a fool for believing that Micro$oft is truth incarnate.

I'd just like to say that I was trying to be brutally honest. Sony is always going to be one of the top 2 or 3 companies in any type of multimedia. I don't think that Microsoft is cool. I think that Linux is much cooler. I like Linux better, but Microsoft has more software, so I just use it more. (You could try to make an argument for Palm there, but I don't care.) Linux is always an alternative.

The Motorola processor is not what it is cracked up to be. Trust me. If it was all that, then it could play movies at better than 12-15 fps and better than 256 colors and better than 160x120 resolution. And this is not even using the cpu for sound decoding! This is also a proprietary video format made just for the Palm in mind! It's video quality is horrible and this is the absolute best that a 33 MHz processor can do! PocketDivx for PPC plays at better than 24 fps with fullscreen QVGA resolution and fullcolor (using client-based 24to16(or12)-bit dithering) and mp3 software decoding (with equalizer) while using a standard format that you can download right off the web. PocketDivx is using a processor that is "only" six times faster than the 33 MHz Motorola one. That doesn't compute, does it? Apparently, the PPC cpu has better multimedia performance per clock-cycle than a Dragonball-type processor.

My mind is not narrow. Only my opinion. I can know that a certain hardware device is really good, but I still don't have to have a positive opinion on it. At least I realize and admit that I have a narrow opinion.

I also don't like Microsoft anymore than you do. I was going to get a Yopy (linux), but it never really came out, so I got a cheap iPAQ to replace my aging e115. I really don't like Palm. That is my opinion. I have many reasons for it. I do not believe that it is easier to use than a Pocket PC, no matter what you say. I wasn't able to figure out how to use a Palm as quickly as with my Pocket PC. In fact, I find that figuring out how to do the simplest things on a Palm is actually not as simple as it seems. Pocket PCs, I know for a fact, come with an extensive built-in Help system that is always instantly accessable through a button on the start menu that links to a help file that is directly related to what program you are currently in, even many times if it is a user-installed app. That is very simple to understand, especially since Windows is ubiquitous.

And one more thing, "grown-up", or rather, "mature" people don't think it's cool to use "Micro$oft" instead of "Microsoft".

[ThomasC22]

[quote]
My mind is not narrow. Only my opinion. I can know that a certain hardware device is really good, but I still don't have to have a positive opinion on it. At least I realize and admit that I have a narrow opinion.



Ok, so basically your saying "I'm not narrow minded I just speak and act like I am"...

&lt;sarcasm> That makes Sense &lt;/sarcasm>

Tom

P.S. Maybe you should look into a Sharp Zaurus SL-5000D if your so fond of Linux (http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5326761307.html)

[Tycho Morgan]

Sam's cheap shots at Palm are immature and tedious! I own an iPaq 3850 and a Sony Clie and like them both! Palm and Pocket PC's have their own stength's and weaknesses and there is room for both in the computing world. The PDA world should have no place for petty little twits like Sam with his "my Dad is bigger than your Dad" attitude. Get a life!

Damned if I do damned if I don't. Last time I said anything about the PalmOS I got a complaint and I quote:

I read your site several times a day because I want the most up to date Pocket PC info. NOT because I want to read about Palm stuff. Sam's mostly Palm related posts are really turning me off. A tidbit now and then that relates to their demise is ok, but I don't want to read about new Palm/Handspring devices.

You people aren't happy when I'm civil towards the PalmOS and you aren't happy when I pick on it a little either.

So I stopped posting about Palm stuff for nearly a month. And the only reason I touched this story is that it's a new model, with some neat (in my opinion, as everything I post is) innovations, and I'm the only one around right now. This will be the only Palm post from me during this time, unless of course HandEra or Handspring announces a similarly innovative product. Period.

Just to set the record straight, I have used the PalmOS, and while I don't think its suitable for me, I think there is a niche out there that it could really fill if it tried. Having said that, the direction Sony seems to be pointing it towards (the high-end PDA market), makes no sense to me, and I'm not going to gloss over that. Pocket PCs aren't for everyone and neither are Palms. Also the device(s) you own are, probably really well suited to your needs (otherwise you probably wouldn't have bought it). You don't need to prove this to the group, and you don't need to feel hurt when I pick on the device/platform you like. These are my thoughts, my opinions, and my selection of important stories. If you got a problem with it, ignore me and we'll both be a lot happier.

Also I'd like to point out that flaming, trolling, and/or personal insults/attacks to ANY registered user of this discussion forum will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

Cheers,
Sam

[kettle]

No great thoughts here. I don't care whether or not this runs Windows CE, it's just plain bad! Besides the processor, I can't see anyone complaining about its hardware. I also think that this benefits everyone in that it forces (hopefully) other hardware manufacturers to inovate.

kettle

[IpaqMan2]

I have to give it to Sony.. one of the only few companies that really put thought into designing a device and breaking new ground. It is very sad to see it running on the current Palm OS... It's kinda like trying to polish a terd... you just can't do it... And my thoughts are the same with trying to make a Palm OS device into a multimedia platform. Still I hope the PPC cmmunity takes an honest hard look at this and the OEMs consider what else can be done to bring new types of innovation into the PPC platforms.

[jarhead]

Pretty impressive unit. You can find more pictures of it here:

http://www.clieclub.jp/clie_exbit/index.html

Sony obviously put a lot of thought into its design. It looks as if the thumb keyboard can even be removed and replaced with alternate pads like say a gameboy-style pad for playing games.

The flip & twist lcd screen is really cool too. It also has the same upgraded IR port of the T-series Clies which means it'll probably come with the neat universal remote control software that those units have as well.

I have an EM-500 and IPaq right now, but this unit is making me seriously consider switching.

[Paragon]

It really is sad to see this device running the current Palm O/S. The hardware is far ahead of the OS. If you look at Jpegs 85, 90, and 91 from the link above they show very well that the device is still limited to 160x160 for most operations. It's pretty damn flashy but when it comes to everyday use the constrains of the O/S have it chained to the last century.

I'm curious, how many of you think Sony's Clie could survive with it's own proprietary operating system.

Dave

[Dan East]

You will see XScale Pocket PCs with higher resolution displays, and an OS and large base of applications that can actually make use of it (yes, the majority of existing Pocket PC applications will happily make full use of higher resolution displays). Don't flip out so much over a flip screen. 3 years ago when the TriPad Windows CE HPC came out I thought it would revolutionize the world. Extremely cool design - curiously similar to what Sony is doing here. I was sure we would even see laptops migrate to the flip screen type layout. You can't even find the TriPads these days.

Finally, the 66mhz processor is very underpowered to drive a 16 bit display of that resolution. That is assuming you want to do gui-intensive apps (like web browsers, trees, tables, TrueType + ClearType font rendering, etc). Let's not even talk about trying to render 302,200 16 bit pixels @ 30 fps for a game much more complex than Tetris. How about decoding full motion video at that resolution, plus audio? Ha ha ha.

Dan East

[Chubbergott]

And so we come back full circle to the point that is made time after time;

It depends what you want it for!

As for Sam being picked on for posting Palm related stuff, I appreciate it (and I own neither a Palm or a PocketPC). And trust me, he's nowhere near as provocative and tunnel-visioned about technology as Andy!

Besides, it adds to the banter. We all know that mobile technology isn't the most important thing in the world (particularly as the world does seem to be falling apart quite spectacularly right now).

[Dan East]

Sony is a multimedia company. It is obvious they are trying to head towards a multimedia capable device. They have the most popular gaming console in the world. Why would they want to produce a handheld computer crippled by an OS and processor so it cannot even equal a first generation GameBoy? They are the leading manufacturer of video and audio devices, why would they want their handheld computer to be restricted to PIM functionality?

As has been said, if it weren't for corporate strategies and posturing, Sony would be producing Windows CE devices. I am slightly surprised they haven't embraced a flavor of Linux, or at least make their hardware "linux ready", so others can do the work for them. Sony is no significant producer of software, and they must rely on the base of existing Palm lemmings to migrate to their hardware.

I do wish to see the Pocket PC hardware mature (and it is). However, I for one am glad that Sony is not in the market. They are the Microsoft of consumer electronics. If they had their way, the world would be playing Sony licensed Beta tapes on Sony Beta Players with our Sony TV, watching a movie that Sony produced, while we take a Sony Memory Stick out of our Sony Digital Camera and view the images on our Sony Clie. Let them continue down the Palm OS path that keeps their hands tied behind their back.

Dan East

[Hans the Hedgehog]

... Why would they want to produce a handheld computer crippled by an OS and processor so it cannot even equal a first generation GameBoy? They are the leading manufacturer of video and audio devices, why would they want their handheld computer to be restricted to PIM functionality?


This is much more powerful than a first gen Gameboy! Do you even know the specs of a 1st gen Gameboy?! And, Dan, sorry to burst your bubble, but the OS doesn't limit anyone to ony PIM functionality, just your narrow vision. If your definition of PIM includes the ability to listen to MP3's, read ebooks, play games, look at photos, etc... then I guess the PPC is limited to PIM functionality, too.


As has been said, if it weren't for corporate strategies and posturing, Sony would be producing Windows CE devices. I am slightly surprised they haven't embraced a flavor of Linux, or at least make their hardware "linux ready", so others can do the work for them. Sony is no significant producer of software, and they must rely on the base of existing Palm lemmings to migrate to their hardware.


Like NEC, Toshiba, Compaq, HP have done anything significant for the PPC OS? Looks like they are letting "others do their work for them," too. Sony has added to the PalmOS to support their hardware, just as HandEra and Handspring do and have done.


I do wish to see the Pocket PC hardware mature (and it is).


Mature? How's the dust on the HP units... even after the Compaq fiasco! How's that back light on that E200. The PPC units are nearly identical: 4 buttons, gamepad in the middle, etc... At least Sony is trying to mix up the form factor of the PDA and I hope, as others have said, that we see it really stir some ideas up in the market.


However, I for one am glad that Sony is not in the market. They are the Microsoft of consumer electronics. If they had their way, the world would be playing Sony licensed Beta tapes on Sony Beta Players with our Sony TV, watching a movie that Sony produced, while we take a Sony Memory Stick out of our Sony Digital Camera and view the images on our Sony Clie. Let them continue down the Palm OS path that keeps their hands tied behind their back.


And Microsoft doesn't want to control everything... The Desktop, the server, the PDA, the Game console, the Smartphone, the PVR, the TV, and everything else. They have already stated that they want the home electronics market (Sony), the console market (Sony), and the mobile market (Smartphone & PPC)... so what's your point? And Sony has done more for the consumer electronics than many other companies... ever listened to a CD or watched a DVD? And what's wrong with Beta? Better than VHS anyday!

Wake up Dan, you seem more of a "lemming" than even Robotbeat!

Hans

[entropy1980]

Hans if you agree that Sony is a multimedia company striving for multimedia finctions in a handheld I dare you to show me a palm unit anyone has produced that can handle any multimedia function especially video as well as PPC, the fact is you can't and until the mythical OS5 arrves we won't know if it can or will any better than the current crop, so as far as today and the near future goes PPC is the only game in town that allows you to take advantage of more powerful hardware, no amount of streamlined coding can defeat good old fashioned horsepower when it comes to pushing the multimedia speed limit, On top of that Dragonball processors are CISC based making it even uglier for multimedia, face it Sony is posturing there is no technical reason they should stay with palm, and don't say market share or developers because being the giant they are they could get developers (look at how they pulled developers from Nintendo and Sega).

[Chubbergott]

I think we need to take it easy on Micro$oft because it is having a difficult time;

:roll: AOL (a company for which I have little to no respect, but who have many millions of users worldwide) are abandoning IE for Mozilla

:roll: Mr. Ballmer doesn't know what WindowsCE.net is (according to his testimony in court). Maybe someone should tell him.

:roll: Governmnet departments in European countries are looking to save millions by looking to Sun and even Lotus for Office software (one UK department is expecting to save £100m)

:roll: There are still states in the US who still believe that Micro$oft is the devil incarnate

:roll: Nobody with any experience in the Mobile Phone market wants to make the Micro$oft smartphone. so who's going to buy one?

:roll: The only people who look forward to a new Micro$oft product are hackers who want something else to do. The only safe Micro$oft product is an old Micro$oft product that has seen at least two service packs before it has a reasonable amount of stability and security

:roll: Many of the most succesful products for Micro$oft's flagship PDA are nothing more than enhancements which bring the built in software up to what it should be anyway




But as I hinted previously, I don't really care much these days.

[PJE]

320 x 480 x 16bit

That works out to be 300K for the screen alone. I hope you can run applications direct from a memory stick as any application using fancy icons/buttons/etc.. is going to need more than 16MB of RAM.

Interesting, the original Palm has a 160x160 B/W screen which was 3.125K I doubt going from 16MHz to 66MHz will make up for the difference unless Sony have added a DSP or screen co-processor for this part as well as the MP3.

Having said that, if the things as fast as my iPaq, I'd be very interested - maybe when bluetooth is embedded.

My 2c

[entropy1980]

Despite everything you mentioned Chubbergott they still remain the largest software maker in the world , and if you don't like their products don't buy them and leave the people who do alone, you don't hear me goingto Linux sites and ranting about how they have a huge security flaw regarding a supposed Microsoft only problem of buffer overflows( it was found this week and it can even effect the kernel ouch!)....It gets a little old for everyone living in glasshouses to throwing stones...Everyone got some issues no reason to go Microsoft bashing just because they are successful. Chubbergott i bet you and rest of the stonethrowers all use some piece of microsft software at somepoint everyday.

[Foo Fighter]

Very cool design..I hope we see some cool stuff like this with the next generation of Pocket PC devices!

Don't hold your breath. I doubt we will ever see a PocketPC with this form factor. Not because it can't be done, but because the companies who develop PocketPC devices would have no interest in building it. The key factor here is that PPC vendors are targeting the CORPORATE world, not consumers. Enterprise customers have no need for built-in digital cameras, or rotating LCD displays. They want something more like a wireless e-mail device (blackberry), vertical appliance (Symbol), or tablet/Pad device for office document editing and mobile access (PocketPC).

[Foo Fighter]

...I dare you to show me a palm unit anyone has produced that can handle any multimedia function especially video as well as PPC, the fact is you can't and until the mythical OS5 arrves we won't know if it can or will any better than the current crop,

Well, according the devs who attended PalmSource, OS5 based devices will handle video as well...perhaps even better..than PocketPC. And we should start seeing OS5/Xscale hardware hit the market by mid-late summer. So I don't see why you would call OS5 "mythical".

[Dan East]

This is much more powerful than a first gen Gameboy! Do you even know the specs of a 1st gen Gameboy?! And, Dan, sorry to burst your bubble, but the OS doesn't limit anyone to ony PIM functionality, just your narrow vision. If your definition of PIM includes the ability to listen to MP3's, read ebooks, play games, look at photos, etc... then I guess the PPC is limited to PIM functionality, too.

I thought we weren't comparing specs directly here? The Clie has less than 1/3 RAM and Processing power of a typical Pocket PC 2002 device, and lets not start talking about the vast amount of CF and PCMCIA expandability available to the Pocket PC hardware (Yeah!, Memory Stick is so good!). So, by your logic, a Pocket PC is 3 times better than the new Sony Clie? My comparison is that a First Generation Gameboy, being 1/4 as powerful as the Clie, is likely a more capable gaming platform. As I said, beyond Tetris Clones and other simplistic games, there's no way a device with 1/3 the power of a Pocket PC can realisticly perform twice the work to required to render the larger display.

My statement about PIM functionality was in response to the knee-jerk defensive response that Palms are designed with narrow vision to do PIM-like things. If I'm going bother to carry a chunk of silicon around in my pocket, then I will choose the platform that is more capable. Period. The comparson gets even more absurd when the Palm OS devices sell for the same amount as the Pocket PCs.


Like NEC, Toshiba, Compaq, HP have done anything significant for the PPC OS? Looks like they are letting "others do their work for them," too. Sony has added to the PalmOS to support their hardware, just as HandEra and Handspring do and have done.


Oh, so Sony extending the Palm OS into a proprietary beast is a Good Thing? As a developer, I am very, very thankful the OEMs can't muck around with the Pocket PC OS. We would end up with 10 different flavors of the Casio BE-300 that is incompatible with everything else. However, I guess as long as the hardware has a gimmick to flip your wig then that blaring issue can be ignored.


Mature? How's the dust on the HP units... even after the Compaq fiasco! How's that back light on that E200. The PPC units are nearly identical: 4 buttons, gamepad in the middle, etc... At least Sony is trying to mix up the form factor of the PDA and I hope, as others have said, that we see it really stir some ideas up in the market.


What do manufacturing defects specific to a couple models' first run have to do with the maturity of the hardware and OS? Why don't we bring devices like the Jornada 720 into this discussion if you want to talk about stirring up ideas and form factor? The Windows CE OS has always offered more variety than Palm, be it accessories or otherwise. In fact, one of the larger flaws of Windows CE was the variety. You can't get too much more diverse than having an OS supported by hardware with 3 different processors. The standardization we see with Pocket PC 2002 is a Good Thing.


And Microsoft doesn't want to control everything... The Desktop, the server, the PDA, the Game console, the Smartphone, the PVR, the TV, and everything else. They have already stated that they want the home electronics market (Sony), the console market (Sony), and the mobile market (Smartphone & PPC)... so what's your point? And Sony has done more for the consumer electronics than many other companies... ever listened to a CD or watched a DVD? And what's wrong with Beta? Better than VHS anyday!


Of course Microsoft want's to dominate the world. My 4 year old daughter knows that. However, if any company gets to dominate, I want them to be in my U S of A's backyard. I didn't say Betamax wasn't better. It wasn't competitive. Sony doesn't want to compete. They want to introduce a proprietary version of everything, so they can own the rights and license it to others. Hence the Betamax of the 80's and the Memory Stick of the 2000's.


Wake up Dan, you seem more of a "lemming" than even Robotbeat!


You're quite right. The fact that I'm responsible for producing things like Pocket Quake and Pocket Quake II has nothing to do with my knowing from experience a superior platform and OS.

Dan East

[entropy1980]

Because it was supposed to have been released awhile ago and it still isn't on shelves, I highly doubt we will see anything worthwhile by summer, so.....that's how. As for the video aspect once we have Xscale PPC's (around the same time) that will be negated if (remember it's an if cause no one knows for sure) Palm actually does handle video better at this point.

[Chubbergott]

Chubbergott i bet you and rest of the stonethrowers all use some piece of microsft software at somepoint everyday.


:D You know something? :o You're right! :o

:roll: But I don't remember saying that Micro$oft can't do anything right. I actually like Win2K and, as I have posted on this site, I think that WinXP very good.

But as long as I am free to respond to people who slag off anything that isn't Micro$oft, simply because it isn't Mico$oft (for that is what gets my goat - the mindless following Micro$oft seems to have picked up), I will..... but darn it, if I'm not tired of having to go through all this everytime I say something in jest about Micro$oft because a fanboy is offended.

[entropy1980]

GO DAN! GO! :D

[Chubbergott]

As I said, beyond Tetris Clones and other simplistic games, there's no way a device with 1/3 the power of a Pocket PC can realisticly perform twice the work to required to render the larger display.


What you fail to acknowledge is that a lot depends on the OS and the quality of code that drives it.

I have played Doom on a 50Mhz device running at 640x200 and it was much smoother than on my E115 which runs at more than 100Mhz.

For all its good points, the PocketPC OS strangles the processor and that is why the OS needs more than 200Mhz. Windows code has never really been efficient. That is why Palm and Symbian devices can perform equally well on less powerful platforms.

[entropy1980]

Chubbergott your comparing apples to oranges, someone port quake to palm and try and run it..... wait you can't? O wait you don't have enough Ram to store it? What the processor is to inefficent? While I agree that basic functions coded well can run well on less, for the most part more demanding functions and processes require more power, look at how the "efficent" Palm OS in it's non-multi tasking ability runs video at non silky smooth 10fps! If simplicity was all it cracked up to be Palm would not be following PPC to Xscale.

[Chubbergott]

Chubbergott your comparing apples to oranges, someone port quake to palm and try and run it..... wait you can't? O wait you don't have enough Ram to store it? What the processor is to inefficent? While I agree that basic functions coded well can run well on less, for the most part more demanding functions and processes require more power, look at how the "efficent" Palm OS in it's non-multi tasking ability runs video at non silky smooth 10fps! If simplicity was all it cracked up to be Palm would not be following PPC to Xscale.


I must admit that you have the better of me in that I have never used a Palm and therefore have no experience in its functionality. But your points are not yet ground for critisism of the new OS (especially If BeOS is anything to go by).

All I do know is that the device I use is limited by RAM and processor power yet much of what you use as examples to prove Palm's ineptitude run better on my current device than the PocketPC I owned.

[Dan East]

Microsoft provides the Game API, which allows direct access to the display hardware. That is the technique used by games and other multimedia apps like DivX, Pocket TV, etc. From all my experience CE 3.0 kernel is very efficient and stable. Plus the source code is freely available. In a game environment, the process in which the game is running can be bumped up to a higher priority, which allows it to consume 99.999% of the processor's power. Any application can take over extensive, low-level access to the hardware which takes the OS performance completely out of the picture.

Regardless, the CE 3.0 OS in no way strangles the processor. Using DEXplor's TaskManager, it is evident that while idle and doing the regular background processing (including WisBar), a Pocket PC uses less than 1% of the processor. Now if we were talking about pre-Windows CE 3.0, then I would agree with you regarding the OS's poor performance.

Dan East

[entropy1980]

All I do know is that the device I use is limited by RAM and processor power yet much of what you use as examples to prove Palm's ineptitude run better on my current device than the PocketPC I owned.


Point taken, and I don't think PPC isthe be all and end all of PDA's however I think they are getting there with every release.

[Hans the Hedgehog]

I thought we weren't comparing specs directly here? ...


I wasn't. Your point about the GameBoy, not mine. Calling a 66Mhz device with dedicated graphics chip and DSP only 4x more powerful than a &lt;1Mhz z80 is absurd, and you know that.


My statement about PIM functionality was in response to the knee-jerk defensive response that Palms are designed with narrow vision to do PIM-like things ...


Thank you for admitting your knee-jerk repsonse was close minded. Personally, I am tired of the "can yours do that" wars. I don't own a Palm, but have friends and family that do. They use them for PIMs and thats that. Why spend $600 when $200 will suffice? Personally, I own an E-125 (haven't moved to PPC2002, yet) and have been itching for more power. But that's us powerusers...


Oh, so Sony extending the Palm OS into a proprietary beast is a Good Thing? As a developer, I am very, very thankful the OEMs can't muck around with the Pocket PC OS ...


I would agree with you here. I am a developer, too, and love standardization. I have been developing since the early days of the Amiga and Mac, and always prefered their control over the PC back then. But, still, you attacked Sony for the same business stance that Compaq, HP, Toshiba, NEC, and others take, so, again, how are they different from Sony?


What do manufacturing defects specific to a couple models' first run have to do with the maturity of the hardware and OS? ...


I can't believe you just said that... Signs of a maturing platform, be it hardware or software, are improving QA, fewer bugs, more polished presentation, etc... Not repeating the dust issue of a competitor, having devices that burn out lights so people have to replace a device a month, having paint finish that doens't wear off after a few weeks of handling... I could go on, but obviously, we have different opinions on maturity. I haven't gotten rid of my E-125 because of the enormous problems I read about on the boards, like this one. The OS may be mature, but the hardware isn't.


You're quite right. The fact that I'm responsible for producing things like Pocket Quake and Pocket Quake II has nothing to do with my knowing from experience a superior platform and OS.

Dan East


I'm glad for you that picked the platform with the most horsepower to do PQ and PQII. But both those still pale in comparison to on the desktop, so what's your point? Just that PPC has more power than Palm? Everyone knows that. Just because a device has more horsepower, means little. I have played a number of games on my E-125 that have significantly worse gameplay than a GBA. Does that make the GBA superior, even though it has less horsepower?

Sorry to have struck such a sensitive nerve with you, Dan, but my post claimed little of what you jumped on me for.

[Dan East]

I wasn't. Your point about the GameBoy, not mine. Calling a 66Mhz device with dedicated graphics chip and DSP only 4x more powerful than a &lt;1Mhz z80 is absurd, and you know that.

I never said it was more powerful. If people are playing a game on a device with a 320x480 16 bit display, then they expect to see some pretty impressive graphics. That 66mhz processor is too weak to push that many pixels much beyond Solitaire or Tetris.


Thank you for admitting your knee-jerk repsonse was close minded. Personally, I am tired of the "can yours do that" wars. I don't own a Palm, but have friends and family that do. They use them for PIMs and thats that. Why spend $600 when $200 will suffice? Personally, I own an E-125 (haven't moved to PPC2002, yet) and have been itching for more power. But that's us powerusers...

Is said my statement was in response to the typical knee-jerk "PIM, Less Is More" defensive offered by Palm advocates. Again, I thought we were talking about color devices that cost more than 206 mhz Pocket PCs.


I can't believe you just said that... Signs of a maturing platform, be it hardware or software, are improving QA, fewer bugs, more polished presentation, etc... Not repeating the dust issue of a competitor, having devices that burn out lights so people have to replace a device a month, having paint finish that doens't wear off after a few weeks of handling... I could go on, but obviously, we have different opinions on maturity. I haven't gotten rid of my E-125 because of the enormous problems I read about on the boards, like this one. The OS may be mature, but the hardware isn't.


PC's have been manufactured for 2 decades, and millions if not billions have been produced. So if you see a couple new models that exhibit quality control problems, PC's in general no longer represent a mature platform? What about laptops? There are dozens of models of laptops that have been produced in the last couple years with bad QC problems. I agree that our definition of maturity differs here. :)


I'm glad for you that picked the platform with the most horsepower to do PQ and PQII. But both those still pale in comparison to on the desktop, so what's your point? Just that PPC has more power than Palm? Everyone knows that. Just because a device has more horsepower, means little. I have played a number of games on my E-125 that have significantly worse gameplay than a GBA. Does that make the GBA superior, even though it has less horsepower?

Sorry to have struck such a sensitive nerve with you, Dan, but my post claimed little of what you jumped on me for.


Nah. No sensitive nerves here. The Windows CE platform isn't going away, and no-one on the horizon looks to surpass its technology. I burnt out my advocacy-for-the-sake-of-advocacy stage 15 years ago with my Amiga 1000. Which, BTW, still ownz all of you. :)

My purpose in participating in this thread is because of people slobbering all over themselves over a hinged display on a Palm-Sized PDA, and how Pocket PC suddenly sucks so bad because Sony doesn't grace the platform with its brand name. Basically what we have going on here is a comparison between a brand new device that is not even available, against the 2 year old 206 mhz Compaq iPaq Pocket PC sitting here on my desk.

Again, we have a discussion occuring between people that expect different things out of their PDAs. My iPaq spends the majority of its life hosting things like Ethernet and WiFi CF Cards. I enjoy playing the most advanced and cutting-edge games available on hardware of this form-factor. I enjoy being able to do most of the things I can do on my laptop with my Pocket PC. To me palm hardware has always fallen into the category of calculators, personal organizers in wrist watches, and barely makes it into the world of Personal Computers. Thus it is hard for me to find much common ground in a disussion of this nature.

Dan East

[Hans the Hedgehog]

... I burnt out my advocacy-for-the-sake-of-advocacy stage 15 years ago with my Amiga 1000. Which, BTW, still ownz all of you. :)

Dan East


See, now that is something we can agree on... Just last week I was using my Amiga 1000 and had a buddy on my A3000 walking down memory lane. The good ole days, when everyone was playing catch up to the Amiga.

Hans.

[HR]

Let's stop slugging OS's and engage in futile questions such as which runs faster. Let's take a look at the device in a more mature way. Here are my observations:
1. 480x320 – a real advantage. I will not by a new PPC until they match or better this resolution.
2. Design, material quality, fit and finish – whatever you say about Sony, they outdo any PPC makers. HP, Compaq, etc. should take a cue from Sony and improve their devices. I am puzzled as to why they keep making these clumsy and flimsy designs.
3. Clamshell/keyboard – that's subjective. It's futile to argue about it. There is no best form factor.

[Aceze]

Y'know what's sad?

Milletech introduced the Triton PDA last year at Comdex, and it had a 640x480 screen (that was clear!) running WinCE with no problems, and it was no larger than a standard PocketPC.

Why is this not mainstream yet? Why is it taking so long to get Xscale into the pipeline (corollary: why are companies like NEC still trying to introduce non-Xscale models?).

I like many aspects of the new Sony (better res, nicer formfactor - although I'm not too enamoured of the clamshell design), but there's things like the MemoryStick technology that I will never accept from Sony (non-standard media).

I hate to say it, but there's precious little innovation in the PocketPC market - every single PDA coming out is a clone of the Compaq PocketPC (in many ways) because of the fact it sold well. Doesnt anyone out there have an ounce of originality left???

Aceze (who left Palm a long time ago, and feels like leaving PocketPCs for the Fujitsu P-series ultralight laptop very soon).

[Paragon]

Aceze

I don't know it's so much that they are not innovating, but they are constrained buy the standards set out by MS as to what a Pocket PC must be.... Help me here those of you in the know more than me, is this true or not.

Dave

[Robotbeat]

Paragon, you are both right and wrong. The PPC 2002 devices must have a StrongArm processor and stuff like that, and also battery life must be above a certain limit (thank God for that standard!).

I must say that everyone here must kiss Dan East's feet because he is just that cool (except Jason Dunn, he can just nod approvingly, because he is close to that cool). No seriously, I think that you should give Dan, the most respected and gifted developer for the Pocket PC, a little more respect. He actually does know what he's talking about. Can any of you port PQ2 to the PPC in one night and get better than a slide-show? Didn't think so.

And BTW, for anyone who didn't know, the app that Dan was talking about (that finds out the CPU percentage of any process while it is running) was an app that he wrote, so don't think that he doesn't know what he's talking about!

Casio has a little bit of originality. USB hosting, anyone? Well, there's your ounce of originality. Take it or leave it.

I believe that the Pocket PC can be just about as efficient as a Palm, if you tweak it a bit. If you make all processes real-time and made the storage ram non-compressed (using the utility from Times2Tech for accessing more than 64 MB of RAM), you would probably get a just as efficient OS. Think about it. 102 MHz SDRam? That's faster than the computer I am using right now that runs WindowsXP! If you overclocked your iPAQ (for you fellow power-users), you could get like 118 MHz SDRam, which is pretty fast. Also, Pocket PCs use TrueType fonts, and the PPC 2K2 devices use TrueType fonts and Clear-Text. This is much more processor intesive than pixel-based text that doesn't scale. If you use faster text, then you probably would have an extremely fast PDA. Remember, Pocket PCs have always used QVGA resolution (I think at least 2-bit greyscale, as well, was the low standard, but I'm not 200% sure), even with the first "Palm-sized PC" running Windows CE 1.x, which means that they always had more screen to write to.

My only point in the above paragraph is that the Pocket PCs are capable of Palm OS "efficiency", but they choose not to because users want more than just an "efficient" OS, they want flexibility. Since the hardware makes flexibility and a quick OS possible at the same time, Pocket PCs enjoy the fastest, most flexible, and most visually appealing OS for a mini-tablet-type PDA, to date. You could argue a single point, but not over all three points.

I'd also like to say that my iPAQ running Photogenics has about 10-times the image editing speed (using the same filter) as a 16 MB 100 MHz PowerPC Macintosh running Photoshop 4 LE. Not really very applicable, but interesting to me.

[Robotbeat]

But, Paragon, developers can still use PPC 2K and a different processor, like the wireless Jornada 920 (or something) that just came out. Also, the Casio BE-300 (not a Pocket PC per se) is basically a totally different platform, with a new GUI and totally weird specs, but it still runs Windows CE 3.0, like at the core of all the other Pocket PCs out there.

[Paragon]

Paragon, you are both right and wrong. The PPC 2002 devices must have a StrongArm processor and stuff like that, and also battery life must be above a certain limit (thank God for that standard!).




And stuff like that.... I was looking for something a little more specific.

As in here are the hardware specs Microsoft requires of their PPC partners.

Dave

[James Bond]

I believe that the Pocket PC can be just about as efficient as a Palm, if you tweak it a bit. If you make all processes real-time and made the storage ram non-compressed (using the utility from Times2Tech for accessing more than 64 MB of RAM), you would probably get a just as efficient OS.


Why would you want all of them to be real-time (highest priority) threads? The kernel will freak out... CE is not truly a real-time OS. Besides, you don't want background threads running with the same priority as foreground UI ones, since you'll get choppier and less responsive UI. But that is just a technical point.

Palm is basically like DOS: primitive storage model, single-tasking, here's-a-screen-you-draw-on-it OS. Like DOS, it is very snappy since it does one thing at a time. For that very reason, it cannot do much at once :) CE is the cleanest Win32 OS available (API-wise), and does most of the stuff its cousins 95 and NT do.

Note that PIMs need not be multi-threaded :) It is interesting that there is Zen of Palm, but there never was Zen of DOS? Maybe because Palm is smaller, and small is beautiful, as the saying goes.

[AhuhX]

Maybe because Palm is smaller, and small is beautiful, as the saying goes.


Actually isn't the saying "Big is beautiful"?

I guess in that case Palm is downright ugly, which is true also in reality depending on how you look at it... hehehehe

Completely aside from that, I'll agree with the others in that is it so criminal to see such an incredible piece of design being wasted on an OS and hardware platform that just doesn't take advantage of it.

Hardware platform being Dragonball btw.

[Chubbergott]

Completely aside from that, I'll agree with the others in that is it so criminal to see such an incredible piece of design being wasted on an OS and hardware platform that just doesn't take advantage of it.


I suppose you guys are right about the hardware being wasted on a limited OS (but don't disrespect the new version before it is out, remember, BeOS is better than Windows);

The device should run a smart Multitasking OS, designed from the ground up for mobile devices, with a smart and easy to use GUI, excellent built in office compatible apps, PIM functionality, web browsing and so on. That's why the best OS for this device would probably be Symbian :lol: :lol:

[Timothy Rapson]

Everything I could do on my first full-function desktop, (a 1992 Pionex) I believe I can do on a Sony NR70V PLUS take pictures.

I don't do games. Even the video I have seen on the PPC, while many times better than the Palm OS, is not impressive. The Microsoft demonstrator had to stop in the middle and reboot to get the video to play, matching my experience with my mono Ipaq. Three or four times a week, just when I need it to work, it needs rebooting.

But, the thing I want to do with a handheld it wordprocessing. With this Sony, I can have Documents to Go with integration matching a desktop office suite. I can have either WordSmith or QuickWord with integrated spell checkers AND thesaurus. I not only can't get that on a PPC, I never will, because Microsoft had to include the office software with the basic models just to compete with Palm.

The screen has twice the resollution of a PPC matching the crisp DPI of my desktop display where I can not see the pixels at all, unless I really, really look for them.

I could add a camera to a HP or Casio and maybe someday to an Ipaq, but for less money, the Sony has one built-in. I am really disappointed with the low camera resollution. I think 1 megapixel is a minimum for what I want to do with it. I could like a real video recording feature, but can't get that with a PDA of any sort yet. I have to wonder how Panasonic has a new digital video recorder that is not much different in size than a PDA but they can't seem to build these features into a PDA properly. In fact, Ricoh has a still/video camera out that has a web browser and wireless built-in (holy James Bond, guys!). Too bad it is a little over 1 inch thick and $$$1500+$$$$. But, the thing that really impresses me with this Sony is that like my 1992 Pionex it has all the parts there. My current desktop (a 2001 model) has the same box, CD, Floppy, Monitor, sound, GUI, etc. configuration as my 1992. I think that this Sony may be the first of a line of PDAs that will have this ground-breaking basic configuration.

I guess your saying that a Palm at the level of this new Sony is in the category of a wrist watch organizer is meant as a negative, but I would LOVE to have a PDA that ran like my watch. I don't have to reboot a watch or babysit it. My Mako ran like that calculator. I hope my Sony NR70V does too. My Ipaq does not.



Dan East
[/quote] To me palm hardware has always fallen into the category of calculators, personal organizers in wrist watches, and barely makes it into the world of Personal Computers. Thus it is hard for me to find much common ground in a disussion of this nature.

Dan East
[/quote]

[Robotbeat]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Windows CE was designed from the ground up as literally a real-time OS for mobile devices. End of story.

Just for your information, I have crashed a crappy old American cellphone just by playing pong, so nothing is crashproof.

Rapson, you have a good point about Word-processing. I wish that a solution for the Pocket PC would come out that is at least as powerful as your solution.

Another thing, although BeOS was cool, it was EXTREMELY hard to develop for. Have you ever written a program that is intended for multi-cpu computers? Well, all programs for the BeOS had to be written that way.

[HR]

The device should run a smart Multitasking OS, designed from the ground up for mobile devices, with a smart and easy to use GUI, excellent built in office compatible apps, PIM functionality, web browsing and so on. That's why the best OS for this device would probably be Symbian :lol: :lol:
You are such a comedian; such witty punchlines. Wow.:o

[Aceze]

Damn, Timothy, this is exactly what I've been harping on for the past 2 years (of me using the Pocketpc). Games and multimedia are very nice plusses for me, but what's up with all these limitations on the very things the PDA is supposed to be meant for???

Case in point the Office applications. Pocket Word and Excel will be forever plagued with horrendous limitations (e.g. no tables or even slightly more advanced formatting in PWord, no cell spanning in PExcel, terrible performance in both, WTF??!) because no one will lift a finger to do anything due to the fact that Microsoft saw fit to lump in these with the OS. With the supposed power of these PDAs, it's inconceivable to me why they did not improve the functionality of these programs with PPC2002.
Also, dont forget the crappiness of the browser, with it's hardcoded font usage, and the performance issues... etcetc.

Built-in = no competition = no innovation, unfortunately.

I'm not really that interested with the camera attachment, I'd rather have a dedicated camera with cross compatible media formats (which CF happily grants me).

Aceze