Innovate or get hit on the head

[Andy Sjostrom]

I have with great interest read the discussions that followed the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=175">"What if"-post</a>. I find the opinions and comments expressed there very thoughtful, to say the least.<br /><br />I'd like to elaborate a bit further on why I made the remarks I did. The simple reason is that there are two options for Microsoft mobility initiatives: Innovate or get hit in the head.<br /><br />Take a second and assume that Microsoft had pulled out from the mobile devices market three years ago, when even most analysts described that option being likely. What would we have had today? We'd have had a market leader saying that users don't want more, they want "zen"; which really means less. You all know where I could go with this analysis of how Microsoft brought sanity, health, energy, and innovation to this market, and to competition. But that's not what is occupying my mind at the moment.<br /><br />This is what is occupying my mind: I am getting increasingly frightened of a type of self-content ostentatious attitude that seems to grow amongst the "Pocket PC fans". If that attitude would spread into the Microsoft Mobility Division, we'd be extrapolating market share trends with axes in our heads. In fact, that type of attitude is very "un-Microsoftish". The volatile dynamics of this young market will hit you in the head if you don't constantly increase speed of innovation. If it took only two years to gain x% of market share, that means just one thing in a market that moves faster and faster: It will take a lot less time to lose it.<br /><br />I want more paranoia, underdog, "Microsoftish" attitude in the Microsoft mobility-camp, not less. And then I want:<br /><br />• Microsoft to increase the speed of Pocket PC innovation. <br />• Pocket PC OEMs get their act together, and make even better hardware. <br />• Microsoft to get at least two of the top five cell phone manufacturers making the Smartphone 2002. <br />• Microsoft to convince mobile operators that Internet is really not a threat, and why this is so.<br /><br />So, there you have it. I am not less passionate, just more paranoid.

[Russ Smith]

Well said, Andy.

While I've bemoaned the fact that XScale units will probably hit before the paint is really dry on the PPC2K2 units, I agree that an agressive upgrade cycle is necessary. The ARM Palms will hit just about the same time they're oviated by the XScale PPCs but it has to keep happening that way. Palm is currently "dominating" the sales of hand-helds purely by inertia but they seem to be coming aware of that fact.

The one caveat I'd pose is that the manufacturers need to do a better job of bringing viable units to market in spite of the high-slope upgrade curve. It won't do to have more Jornadas with dusty screens; more Casiopieas with self-distruct back-lights; or more iPAQs with dark, memory-assigned-upside-down displays.

[Foo Fighter]

I understand where Andy is coming from, and I have the same fears. Microsoft's marketing and product positioning leave me very skeptical as to just how successful PocketPC really will be in the future. Will it ever really be successful with the mindshare it has now? Worst of all....Microsoft and its licensees are completely ignoring the consumer market. PocketPC's role is defined as a tool for "Mobile Professionals". So that means corporate users with specialized needs and....well, Geeks. Will those two markets (the latter being a niche) carry PocketPC to the highway of success? I have my doubts. This platform will go nowhere in the publics eye so long as Microsoft continues its Marie Antoinette attitude of "Let them eat Palms".

And then there is the hardware. I'm sorry, but the current product line doesn't cut it. None of the PocketPC hardware I've looked at even vaguely resembles a "consumer" product. Why is it that, despite all the impressive specs, PalmOS licensees..particularly Sony, continue to outclass PPC products. I use a Sony Clie T615c, and while it may not have even half the features or functionality of a PocketPC, it is a damn work of art. You can tell that the designers at Sony put a great deal of thought into its design - how it would be carried, or feel in the users hand - how the apps interact with the hardware - styling! Excellent craftsmanship. Every seam is tight, the edges curve and bend uniform fashion. It's an example of why PocketPC hardware vendors just don't get it. A PDA is 50% handheld computer...and 50% fashion accessory. I don't carry a PDA...I WEAR a PDA. It becomes an appendage to me, just like my watch or wallet. Microsoft's partners seem to have a less creative approach to designing hardware: throw together two halves of a plastic shell, and paint it silver. None of the PocketPCs I've looked at even have a built-in flip lid. And what is the deal with all this painted plastic? I want METAL cases....METAL DAMN IT!!! Come on guys..we have to do better than this.

Please don't take this as a flame, I do like PocketPC. But it frustrates me to no end to see such a promising platform, with so much potential, hobble along cluelessly.

[marlof]

throw together two halves of a plastic shell, and paint it silver. None of the PocketPCs I've looked at even have a built-in flip lid. And what is the deal with all this painted plastic? I want METAL cases....METAL DAMN IT!!! Come on guys..we have to do better than this.

from my mind to your keyboard....

[Foo Fighter]

Another thought, in regards to the price issue:

Technically prices on PPC hardware could come down over time as component costs decline. The problem is, Microsoft's partners have shown little interest is selling lower cost, lower margin products. When the new hardware comes out, the older models are discontinued. Will we ever see $299 PocketPC devices...good ones? There needs to be, permanently, a standardized product array that offers a tiered price scale. At this rate, PocketPC will ALWAYS be high-end.

[Daniel]

I have to agree with Foo on this one.

The only non-PPC devices that I have looked at with any interest are the Sony devices (I know this is not what you were saying). Microsoft's mindset (if an non sentient entity can have a mindset) is totally wrong, and has been for a long time. It's not just on PPC either. The only thing stopping people leaving in droves, is that for those people there is not, in their mind, a viable alternative. The reason I have a PPC (H3660) is versatility, that's it. With Sony it's just another set of proprietry standards (anyone got a Memory Stick?) that I don't personally want to buy into. In generating the market share that MS have, based on somewhat open hardware, they have, being Microsoft, spurred a people into action to develop non-Microsoft solutions (Familiar). Why is this? It is, in my opinion, because people are deeply dissatisfied with what Microsoft gives them.
What I would love to see when I buy my next (insert generic term here) is the option of which OS I want installed.

Daniel

[Andy Sjostrom]

Personally, I am not asking for another price point. More costs more, which we will notice when competition starts adding more memory, faster processors and color screens.

I am looking for more innovative software and hardware.
OK, so now we have miniaturized our desktop PC, which is great. But what about software that actually is designed from the fact that the user IS mobile, not from the fact that the user wants to do desktop things anywhere. I am looking for software that is intelligent enough to make tough connectivity choices easier, and that provides a great user experience to all those wireless standards out there; SMS, WAP, Web, Bluetooth, WiFi, GPRS, CDPD, CDMA, IR etc etc.

More innovative hardware. Five years ago, Pocket PC OEMs started making bricks and they still do. Phone combos are on their way, and that's about time. I really hope that the hardware speaks a quality and fashion language that people will expect from $600 products.

Another thing that I am thinking a lot about is the Consumer vs Enterprise debate. What should the next step be? A continuation of a generic Pocket PC platform that should speak the language of consumer AND enterprise at the same time, or a platform that can be had in two flavors? I don't know. I do know that whatever the positioning will be, it will require a significant amount of increased efforts and speed from all delegations in the Pocket PC camp.

[Ferdinand_Lovetree]

Question; Apart from some Casio device that I can't remember (and that wasn't really compatible with the rest - I think), how much freedom do PPC device manufacturers have over the implementation of the OS? Are the able to change the GUI and/or software or are they only allowed to add their stuff if it conforms (Casio's menu system and contacts app being an example)?

[spg]

I am looking for more innovative software and hardware.
OK, so now we have miniaturized our desktop PC, which is great. But what about software that actually is designed from the fact that the user IS mobile, not from the fact that the user wants to do desktop things anywhere. I am looking for software that is intelligent enough to make tough connectivity choices easier, and that provides a great user experience to all those wireless standards out there; SMS, WAP, Web, Bluetooth, WiFi, GPRS, CDPD, CDMA, IR etc etc.


I agree, the Pocket PC is great now, but at the rate Palm is going their features may surpass Pocket PC in a couple of years. Microsoft really needs to pick up the pace.

~Spencer

[Russ Smith]

Of all the Pocket PCs, I think HP is doing the best design work this time around. (Don't even talk about gen-1 HP, please, except to not that it had a real metal cover.) There's the built in cover and there's even a built-in cover with the add-on keyboard. The addons actually look like they belong on the unit rather than sort-of slapped on. Now if they'd just do a real metal cover. (titanium? :))

I use Pocket PC OS because of what it can do. Palm can't touch it for the things I need right now, but I'll agree, I looked quite long at the Color Clie.

[Kemas]

I am not going to sit here and type "Microsoft kicks butt," no-sir-ee, I want to live to be 93. But I do have to say something. Although I totally agree with the statements of this article, I think we are all forgetting something that MS and the makers of Pocket PCs are not forgetting; not too much anyway. It is the mobile professionals and the "niche" Geek users that are the bastion of testing new concepts, ideas and products. Way back when, I was a little kid and a new device had hit the market; the computer. Apple was making one, Radio Shack was making one and even IBM was thinking of getting in the game. Who was buying this equipment? Well, in the begining the people that had the money, the time and the well, fortitude to put up with problems, ticks and twitches. The same basic group, some of the same individuals, that are playing with Pocket PCs today. Mobile Phones, who here had or had parents that had mobile phones in the late 60's and early 70's. They existed. But they were expensive, big and needed a car. In the 80's, how many people had them. Still pretty much no one; but enough to have a market that would bare competitors and make profits. It wasn't until the 90's, in the states anyway, that phones became, well acceptable and normal. If you had had a phone in the 80's and were talking on a street corner in the states; well, you would have been thought of as a Geek or worse. By the end of the century, 8 year olds had phones.
What's my point you ask? Well, although PDAs are moving at light speed, they are still a bastion of mobile professionals, corporate tycoons and Geeks. In 10 years they will be common place and not too expensive and we will all be bitching about how our contact lens screens just don't have the resolution of our 60" HDTV or 20 years when we are complaining our our Holographic movie projector just isn't "real" enough. We are Geeks, so we are never satisfied and expect the rest of the world to follow suit. We may be ahead of our time or just out to lunch, but the world isn't always with us.
Think about how long it took notebooks to become common place in colleges, I started in '89 and a Toshiba plasma display notebook cost two arms and a leg and my mom told me to take a hike. I was willing ot carry one and use it in Class, good thing I didn't I would have been drumed out of school and road out on a rail. Today, even cute girls in min-skirts carry Apple i-books and what not and the cute kids of Buffy even use notebooks.
How times change. My point... just hold on, it will all change eventually.

[Daniel]

Ferdinand

When the manufacturer decides to start a project, they basically look at all the options. The main choice is Palm or PPC with consumer markets and then add Linux with vertical or niche markets.
once they are licensed then i would think there thee would be a point where they break even and start actually making a profit. At this point it may be possible to offer alternative OSs.
Compaq has actually been on the edge with regards to this, they are heavily involved with http://www.handheld.org/ which (if you didn't know) is a major source of information with regards to Linux on PPC hardware. One of Compaq's R&D units also offers free "restore" if by any chance your attempt to install Familiar (iPAQ linux distro) turns your iPAQ into a brick.

Andy
Nothing is future proof of course, but it seems quite obvious to me that PPC manufacturers should be including the ability to upgrade the hardware not just the software. The IBM prototype that was in the news recently had the right idea in my opinion (although it may not have classed as a pocket pc). Core system that can have various additions made to expand it's capabilities. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm sure in the long run this is a possibility, but right now, Pocket PCs are just disposable items. They have a shelf life and then you throw them out. They are configured a certain way so that the companies that make them can make money off people buying upgrades.
Have ranted that ;) I will say that some of the devices that should be coming out this year will offer that kind of targeting (Enterprise vs. consumer).

Daniel

[James]

belong on the unit rather than sort-of slapped on. Now if they'd just do a real metal cover. (titanium? :))


I want durability but I don't really care how they provide it as long as it's not by adding weight or size. I'd be happy with one made of kevlar or composites. Titanium's light enough, but let's skip the magnesium shells Grid uses on their laptops. even a good sleeve with cover would be better than most of the options we have today.

[James]

What's my point you ask? Well, although PDAs are moving at light speed, they are still a bastion of mobile professionals, corporate tycoons and Geeks. In 10 years they will be common place and not too expensive and we will all be bitching about how our contact lens screens just don't have

So true, though I suspect it will be more like 3-5 years. The ball is just starting to roll but it's a nice steep slope a bit further along the path. The key will be to get costs down and get the software to pass the Mom test.

[Daniel]

So true, though I suspect it will be more like 3-5 years. The ball is just starting to roll but it's a nice steep slope a bit further along the path. The key will be to get costs down and get the software to pass the Mom test.


We are the test subjects, the problem is that we are not being listened to by some of the companies involved. We want more, we're telling them that but the fact of the matter is that there is a price point where these devices are profitable, that's what the market will bare and what is technically possible. It's about cash flow, that the devices are lame in a lot of ways is beside the point. These devices are the forbares of what will make our kids giggle.
Wearable computing is where it's at in the long term, but not until it's unobtrusive and stable.

Daniel

[Kemas]

This will be the true test of acceptance of PDAs by Americans, the rest of hte world, simillar test I think but quicker in coming.

A guy, very handsome, not very wealthy, walks into a bar, orders a drink and starts talking to the most beautiful woman he has ever laid eyes on. The conversation goes well, he buys her a drink, she buys him a drink. He asks her for her number, she is very ready to give it to him. He pulls out his PDA and she pulls our hers, a little dainty thing that fits in her dainty purse. They exchance contact information and they both mark the contacts as "5 Stars." The day this can happen, this is the day that PDAs are acceptable in the American way of life. 15 years ago, heck, 8 years ago, if you had pulled out a mobile phone to do the same thing; the girl would have looked at you with a smirk on her face and you would have gotten a "wrong" number. Today, I see people exchanging numbers on mobile phones all the time and soon via bluetooth. It isn't that it is cool, it is just "done." That is the true test of acceptance, not coolness, just normal.

Miles to go before I sleep.......

[Foo Fighter]

Five years ago, Pocket PC OEMs started making bricks and they still do. Phone combos are on their way, and that's about time. I really hope that the hardware speaks a quality and fashion language that people will expect from $600 products.

Couldn't agree more. Right now PocketPC devices are getting thinner at the expense of height and width. At this rate, PocketPC will begin to resemble a small tablet PC or Pad-like device. I would rather see devices which are narrower, and shorter, but sacrifice thinness. I wouldn't mind a PocketPC the same dimensions as my Clie, but thicker and with a full size screen. Guess I'm dreaming.

[fmcpherson]

Andy,

As much as we ridicule it, I think Connection Manager (er.. Mangler) is an attempt at connectivity innovation. Connection Manager attempts to intelligently determine what type of connection to make with the Internet based on the peripherals (wirless modem, landline modem, WLAN) and type of information being requested. If that worked correctly all the time, I think it would be very cool.

Unfortunately, Microsoft's first pitch of Connection Manager to us is high, and outside. (Baseball analogy). Hopefully, they will make some changes that will put Connection Manager right over the plate.

Frank

[James]

We are the test subjects, the problem is that we are not being listened to by some of the companies involved. We want more, we're telling them

When have they ever listened to us?* ;) Some companies certainly do a better job than others, but some seem to need that brick to the head before you get their attention. The truly sad thing is that some companies listen one day and need a brick the next.

* My favorite example is with security. For years the true computing professionals of the world have been saying security before features, but those sales and marketing guys are smart...they talk to the guy that signs the check and say things like "wouldn't it be cool if &lt;insertfavoritegizmothinghere>" " yeah! that'd be great! I'll look cool at the next CIOs meeting". Next thing we know, we're implementing said gizmos.

[James]

As much as we ridicule it, I think Connection Manager (er.. Mangler) is an attempt at connectivity innovation. Connection Manager attempts to intelligently determine what type of connection to make with the Internet

Intelligently? You mean there's intelligence in that disaster? I must be missing a setting or something. Since I made the mistake of using it, I can't get a network sync for the life of me. :evil:

[Foo Fighter]

A guy, very handsome, not very wealthy, walks into a bar, orders a drink and starts talking to the most beautiful woman he has ever laid eyes on. The conversation goes well, he buys her a drink, she buys him a drink. He asks her for her number, she is very ready to give it to him.

Do you write for Harlequin? ;)

He pulls out his PDA and she pulls our hers,

He! When I meet a chic in a bar. Pulling out my "PDA" has a slightly different meaning. :lol:

I get your point though.

It isn't that it is cool, it is just "done." That is the true test of acceptance, not coolness, just normal.

I'm more interested in Microsoft creating "lifestyle" functionality instead of just bells and whistles. I like the idea of using my PocketPC as an "e-wallet" to buy soda from a vending machine via Bluetooth. Or maybe Microsoft can pick up on Sony's defunct eMarker technology that allowed a small device to identify a song playing on the radio. How cool is that! Imagine pointing your PocketPC at the radio and having it "name that tune".

[Foo Fighter]

When have they ever listened to us?* ;) Some companies certainly do a better job than others, but some seem to need that brick to the head before you get their attention. The truly sad thing is that some companies listen one day and need a brick the next.

It is no more fun when it's Palm who is ignoring your requests. Last year when I pinned down two Palm PR guys on the issue of pixel resolution, they laughed in my face and told me, in a roundabout way, to use my stylus for a suppository. Corporate arrogance is sickening.

[Jason Dunn]

And then there is the hardware. I'm sorry, but the current product line doesn't cut it. None of the PocketPC hardware I've looked at even vaguely resembles a "consumer" product....I want METAL cases....METAL DAMN IT!!! Come on guys..we have to do better than this.


Here here! Well said Foo! But the first time you see an 02 XDA from BT, you'll swallow your tongue. :-) It's a GORGEOUS piece of hardware, all metal case, very tightly designed. Looks iPAQ-ish, but the integrated antenna and overall styling makes it look far more professioanl.

The Pocket PC OEMs can learn a lot from the Palm OEMs when it comes to hardware design. Pocket PCs have the killer hardware, but the casing they put it in leaves a lot to be desired... :(

[Jason Dunn]

In generating the market share that MS have, based on somewhat open hardware, they have, being Microsoft, spurred a people into action to develop non-Microsoft solutions (Familiar). Why is this? It is, in my opinion, because people are deeply dissatisfied with what Microsoft gives them. What I would love to see when I buy my next (insert generic term here) is the option of which OS I want installed.


I'm trying to make sense of this and getting nowhere. :?

Microsoft took industry standard hardware (off the shelf CPUs, memory, CompactFlash slots), rolled it into a spec, and handed it to their OEMs. The OEMs took that spec and made the device how they wanted it.

I can't imagine someone wanting to take their HP Jornada 568 and cripple it by putting the Palm OS on it. This thread is mostly about the HARDWARE, not the SOFTWARE. 8)

[jeffmckean]

I'm with the 'metal' crowd. I've played with the Sony 615 and it is beautiful. I have a Sharp SL-5000 dev unit, and while not as beautiful as the Sony, it has a great hardware design, but Linux?

I love my new Jornada, but when I see light leaking from the seams and dust on my screen...hmm. My 3800 iPAQ is nice with a bright screen...that is oriented wrong for ClearType.

PPC 2002 devices are a big leap forward, but I think a few months of hardware refinement would be great.

[Gen-M]

I have to agree with all that has been said in this thread. However, one point needs to be raised. It requires different business models to address the consumer vs the enterprise profitably. The current crop of PPC hardware vendors are not structured for the consumer market. Sony is - in addition to their great design team. If you've got a good design, you still have to get it to the customer ecconomically and profitably. Looking at the retail presence of PPC and Palm demonstrates that Palm and Sony get this part of the equation, Compaq, Casio, HP do not. PPC vendors are not structured for that kind of market presence. This is why they are targeting the enterprise market - they already understand how to sell there. (There is also strategic justification, but that's a long term strategy.)

What we need is a PPC provider who is willing to structure a business unit for the consumer market.

[adamz]

Moving ahead with new features is all well and good, but what about fixing those bugs?! Pocket PC 2002 was released with an extremely disfunctional new Inbox program. A great deal of functionality was lost including desktop/pocketPC email management features that were a luxary to use in all previous Win CE versions.
Yes we all want new features, but don't break everything else we've come to rely on!

[Foo Fighter]

It requires different business models to address the consumer vs the enterprise profitably. The current crop of PPC hardware vendors are not structured for the consumer market. Sony is -

Yep. That's my point. Part of the problem may also lay in the fact that Microsoft's partners are all PC makers. What they need is a good consumer electronics company... a SONY! I've always wished Philips had stayed in the market. By now they would have released a damn cool looking Nino. In fact, the Nino was really the first "stylish" PDA on the market, even pre-dating the Palm V.

[Foo Fighter]

Moving ahead with new features is all well and good, but what about fixing those bugs?!

You know, I hate to bring this up but...is it just my imagination, or does the PocketPC 2002 OS run a tad slower than the 2000 release? I owned an iPaq back in 2000 (went through 2 of them...damn dust), and I remember PocketPC screamed on that machine. A couple of my friends have iPaqs, one a 3765 the other a 3835, and I noticed the OS seems to drag its heals quite a bit at times. Especially in IE. One time I tried the 3835, the start menu took a long time to appear after I had taped the Flag icon..like the device was about to crash.

Is this just my imagination, or is there something to this?

[Jason Dunn]

Yep. That's my point. Part of the problem may also lay in the fact that Microsoft's partners are all PC makers. What they need is a good consumer electronics company... a SONY!


Well, we have Casio. I find the E-200 to be lower in quality than their previous offerings. The EM-500 wasn't metal, but it was sleek, stylish, and tougher than hell.

[JonnoB]

Apple should license the PPC OS and release an "iPocket." They could also acquire and take over the Mac ActiveSync project. I know it would not happen, but it would be nice. Apple has always at least tried to be innovative with system packaging.

[Foo Fighter]

Well, we have Casio. I find the E-200 to be lower in quality than their previous offerings. The EM-500 wasn't metal, but it was sleek, stylish, and tougher than hell.

I'm not sure Casio is going to stay around the PDA market much longer. I get the impression this is their last hurrah. They have struggled badly over the last two years, and haven't gained any significant ground. It's hard to imagine them being profitable. I've seen the E-200 and wasn't impressed at all. It looks and feels very cheap, and it seems like Casio didn't put much effort into it.

[Foo Fighter]

Apple should license the PPC OS and release an "iPocket."

LOL! Good luck getting that product past Steve Jobs ego!

[marlof]

The strange thing is that in my head, if I can choose between Casio or Sony, I'd pick a Sony. Blindly. Somehow Sony has this stamp of 'quality' on it, where Casio reminds me too much of cheap watches. Their earlier devices did rock though, so I think this is just my mind playing tricks with me.

Somehow I feel we can rule Sony out of making a Pocket PC anytime soon ( alas... sigh... ), so we'd might think of another company. Does anybody know Mr Kleisterlee (president and chairman of the board of Philips) in person? Because I'd love to see Stefano Marzano ( head of Philips Design ) get his hands on the development of a Pocket PC.

[JonnoB]

Remember those gold-plated Nokia phones selling for $20k USD? Maybe some enterprising company will make a billionaire PocketPC... nah, enough elitism, I just want compact and super-functional devices.

[Ivan]

Somehow I feel we can rule Sony out of making a Pocket PC anytime soon ( alas... sigh... )


I can only imagine what Sony could do designing a PocketPC device and I'll bet we would just love it. Just look at the new Clie prototype shown at PalmSource... I wonder how they would fit the new hardware requirements for Palm OS 5 in that form factor... interesting.

I also don't think Sony would come out with a PocketPC device anytime soon, seeing how they have now officially become a Microsoft competitor on two fronts... PalmOS Clié vs. PocketPC and PS2 vs. XBox.

[Mr. PPC]

I think the lines between enterprise and consumer are starting to blur when it comes to technology. It used to be that enterprise markets bought devices that worked, not so much on their looks but their ability. That is changing, I know several companies that have chosen a specific PDA because of it's looks. You can now choose a device that looks OK and does ABC or you can choose a device the looks INCREDIBLE and does the same ABC. Companies are starting to pick the INCREDIBLE product because they get the best of both worlds.

All you have to do is look at the mobile phone market. Over the last year short of two or three major enhancements to moblie phones they are almost all the same. But people (especially management) swap out for the latest and greatest because it looks good, not for it's features (which most hardly use). This mentality is moving into other areas, the PDA just being one.

Can the market make a PDA that can appeal to enterprise customers and consumers, of course. Look at the Palm!

Is there a company out there that could make the ultimate PDA, easily Toshiba, Fujitsu, Sony, Compaq, HP, Casio and many others can. Would we not switch to a Sony PocketPC if it had the build of their Palm line, support for SD and CF II, a Sony screen and battery life equal to HP or better. They could do it if they wanted to.

The question is, why doesn't someone do this? Why doesn't the largest software company in the world just have its coders go into a room and fix the damn stuff? I don't know. It is clearly not because the consumers don't want it, we do. It is something with the companies, that we the consumer (both personnal and corporate) apparently have no say in.

[AKBishop]

I agree that OEMs need to get busy with better and better products each year. In April of 2000, Compaq released the iPAQ (although most didn't start getting them until Aug/Sept). Specs: 32MB RAM, 206 Mhz Procesor, Expandibility to just about anything (PC Card / CF / SD / +).

In October 2001, Compaq released the 3800 series. Specs: 64MB RAM, 206 Mhz Procesor, PC Card / CF / SD / +.

Casio: 64MB RAM, 206 Mhz, PC Card / CF / SD.

HP: 64MB RAM, 206 Mhz, PC Card / CF / SD.

Toshiba: 64 MB RAM, 206 Mhz, PC Card / CF / SD.

Do we see a trend here?

Granted I love my iPAQ 3800 and it's better than my 3650 in some subtle (and some not so subtle) ways. But In 18 months, the model should've been heads and tails over the 3600 series.

PPC 2002 models are the same as the iPAQ 3600 with just double the RAM. Why did it take 18 months to copy the iPAQ? Why did they bother copying it in the first place?

I'll believe that they just don't have anything more to put it them. That's fine, but they should've been working closely with Intel with pre-production XScale procs so that when they were released this week, the OEMs could release their new products immediately.

I think the PPC 2002 models are great, but I agree that the OEMs need to get moving. If we get the PPC 2000 models down to $150 then we can compete with Palm in the low end market. I cringe when I see people I know getting Palms, but I can't blame them because most people have $100-150 to spend, not $600-650 (darn sales tax!). Then we could have the PPC 2002 models at the $300-400 price range. That'd be diversity... which Palm / Sony / Handpsring do have.

And regarding the o2 xda... how long does it take to get that darn product shipping? Yes it is impressive and looks cool, built well but it's still not in stores which makes it as good as Palm OS 5.[/quote]

[Foo Fighter]

Because I'd love to see Stefano Marzano ( head of Philips Design ) get his hands on the development of a Pocket PC.

Yes please!!! What about the designers at IDEO? They do a beautiful job as well.

Come on, Philips...come back. Come back to the dark side!!! :twisted:

[marlof]

The designers at IDEO have proven your point for that 'other platform'. It's no secret that the Palm V had a killer design. Even I was tempted to get one, in fact I still am. The IBM Workpad can be had pretty cheap right now, and a few days ago the money to get one ( for my 'very cool industrial design' collection ) was burning in my pocket. But I was too afraid Jason would realize I'd bought a Palm, and kick me out of here. :p

[Kemas]

If we had only one player in the game, we could have more diversity, but that doesn't work either. Look at Palm; they were the only serious player for years and didn't do squat until Microsoft said; hm, palm computing... not a bad idea.

The industry figured out that we would pay $600 for a hand held computer that fits in our palm. So they are building devices to that market. In time they will build for the $300 market.

For everyone that complains, I think we need to remember one thing. The iPAQ I have is more powerful than the brand new notebook I was using in 1997. Not in every way, and is limited to be sure do to form factor. But my stars they have packed a great deal of machine into a small box. Give the folks at the big computer companies credit where credit is due.

It is a double edge sword for them. They developed these increadible little boxes and now we want them to do the same thing in just over a year. We are used to that in desktops and to an extent notebooks now; but the changes in those boxes aren't very "real" and are more a marketing ploy than anything else. The new iPAQ isn't a huge developement, but let's not forget they kept the same form factor and took a huge leap of faith with SD.

I don't know about you all, but I can manage by basic finances, all my contacts, my e-mail, TV programs, news, magazines, photo albums, music and movies on my iPAQ with little trouble or fuss. Half of this you could do easily on a desktop just a few years ago. There is a long way to go, but they have traveled far already.

My iPAQ is good for at least another year, maybe longer. They are designed for about a 3 year life span (same as notebooks), so it goes to figure that major innovation will come at around the 3 year mark. That can't innovate too fast, they will piss a great number of people off in the process.

[AKBishop]

I also don't think Sony would come out with a PocketPC device anytime soon, seeing how they have now officially become a Microsoft competitor on two fronts... PalmOS Clié vs. PocketPC and PS2 vs. XBox.


Not to mention that Sony is part of Sun's Liberty Alliance (http://www.projectliberty.org/chartermembers.html) :evil: (anti- Microsoft Passport).

[Foo Fighter]

Somehow Sony has this stamp of 'quality' on it, where Casio reminds me too much of cheap watches.

Yes, they have an image of "Cool stuff" attached to their name, whereas Casio just has "Cheap" written all over it. I do wish Sony would at least off a small line of PocketPC devices just for balance...but they seem to be squarely in Palm's corner. :cry:

The designers at IDEO have proven your point for that 'other platform'.

What platform is that? :P

Even I was tempted to get one, in fact I still am.

I wouldn't bother. After the novelty wears off, you will get tired of staring at that pea green screen.

But I was too afraid Jason would realize I'd bought a Palm, and kick me out of here.

Why do you think I'm nervous to be here! It's like walking on a minefield! :?

[Kre]

I agree, the Pocket PC is great now, but at the rate Palm is going their features may surpass Pocket PC in a couple of years. Microsoft really needs to pick up the pace.

~Spencer


I do agree that the pocket pc industry needs to pick up the pace in some areas. But at the pace palm is currently at, I defintely dont agree that they would or could ever bypass the pocket pc. Innovation has hardly been a part of palm`s mantra.

I do agree with everything Andy said in his first post.

And I do agree that metal casing should be the standard, not this cheap plastic crap we keep seeing. For five hundred plus bucks, we better start seeing METAL! ***Any VC`s out there who want to invest in a really GOOD pocket pc concept? Let me know. :)

It is too bad that Sony didnt choose to be a ppc manufacturer. Id really be interested to see what they come out with. I was very disappointed when I first heard long ago that they were going to be producing palm devices.

And I do have to agree that the ppc needs to be simple and stylish enough to use, much like a cell phone, before it will be accepted among the masses. It`s getting there, but has further to go.

Great comments, in this thread, overall.

[kettle]

I also don't think Sony would come out with a PocketPC device anytime soon, seeing how they have now officially become a Microsoft competitor on two fronts... PalmOS Clié vs. PocketPC and PS2 vs. XBox.
[/quote]

Don't forget the fourth front... Sony Ericson venture.

[Foo Fighter]

Another point to make, on the dust problems with Casio and HP devices: I think Sony has the best solution with its new "Transflective" LCD found on the Clie T615c. Instead of a side-lit reflective LCD that you find on the iPaq, E200, and Jornada, the 615c has a screen that is actually back-lit but has translucent pixels that have a reflective aspect. In other words...you can view the screen outdoors. It feels more natural than a reflective display.

The only downside is that color fidelity is very poor. Bright greens look like Army fatigue, and reds look "rusty". Other than that, it's a damn nice display...very sharp. If you haven't seen this type of display before, go look at the 615. Very impressive. Hopefully we'll see some PocketPC licensees pick up on this.

[Gen-M]

I think Microsoft had the right idea when they required all PPC 2002 vendors to use the same core hardware specs (ARM, Screen, Voice Recorder, etc.). But I think they went a little too far. I'd like them to loosen the specs, especially around the screen. CASIO has been penalized for the 125 screen - we've all heard the screams from users (and some of us have been screaming). Now the only display choice is the size of the screen (HP, Casio vs IPAQ, NEC). I hope MS does not restrict the next generation from innovating in this area. Personally, I'd like to see a PDA with a head mounted display as an option. And some alternative to the touch screen. I'd like to see if any technology can support better than 240x320 in a reasonable form factor (as an HMD could). But this is just one area.

Andy - I hope this thread gets to Redmond!

[heliod]

I couldn't agree more with what was said by Foo Fighter in his first comment in his thread.

The most interesting part of this whole story is that there has never been in history such a "corporate-user device" with so much consumer software and so little corporate software available for it.

It seems to me that Microsoft is not in synchrony with the users and developers, and they must synchronyze and begin walking in the right direction as soon as possible. My most important point is that, in my view, the right direction is.... BOTH. Microsoft, on one side, MUST get the PPC makers making models that are targeted to the consumer market, and begin added more consumer-targeted functionality into the OS. On the other hand, software makers MUST begin innovating in corporate software for this platform, to create a hype of success of the platform in this market and have Microsoft looking with a little more of interest into this technology.

[Jason Dunn]

Why do you think I'm nervous to be here! It's like walking on a minefield! :?


Oh come on now... :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

loosen the specs, especially around the screen. CASIO has been penalized for the 125 screen - we've all heard the screams from users

There's nothing in the spec that says the screen needs to be reflective like the iPAQ - this is a choice that Casio made. Nothing beats the screen on the E-125/EM-500 for indoor viewing. It's just beautiful...but Casio read all the press about the how the iPAQs screen could be read outside in sunlight. They went where the popularity was...

[Foo Fighter]

Oh come on now... :roll:

Hey, I was only kidding. But I have to be careful that my insight and constructive criticism aren't mistaken for PocketPC bashing.

It's funny, at PDABuzz I'm often accused of being a Palm zealot. And when I visit Palm fans sites, I'm accused of being a PocketPC fan.

When you try to play both sides of the fence you end up getting beaten badly.

[Jason Dunn]

But I have to be careful that my insight and constructive criticism aren't mistaken for PocketPC bashing.


"Constructive criticism" and "bashing" don't go together. Bashing involves mindless ranting without any substance or reasoning. I welcome your thoughts! :lol:


When you try to play both sides of the fence you end up getting beaten badly.


And sometimes you get beaten badly for opening your mouth, no matter where you are. 8O

[Kemas]

Hey, the folks who frequent this site are totally fair. We would never tell the unfortunate palm users of the world what a horrible mistake they have made by not adopting the far superior Pocket PC platform. Many of us were once one of their numbers, but rightfully converted oh so many months ago. Their small budgets and less developed minds could never handle the totality of their mis-guided attempt at carrying a Pocket, or palm size PC. They deserve our love, kindness and tolerance for they do not know that they are walking down a long grey corridor with no doors and no hope of seeing the colorful world that all of the Pocket PC users of the world see and enjoy. A Window to the universe that would not have been possible without their careful and insightful eXPerience. Our Microsoft brothers are truly the wise sheppards of the 21st century and have the world, today and tomorrow, in their Pocket. Only those that listen to the Word shall be able to enjoy this brave new world and Excel at the opportunities it presents to us each and every day.

Praise Bill Gates and Microsoft for all they have done to help those many millions of once mis-guided souls see the light and leave behind our old, less proper ways and enjoy a new lifestyle blooming with possibilities.

This message brought to you by the Bill Gates for Abosolute World Leader Campaign.

[Registered]

I want more paranoia, underdog, "Microsoftish" attitude in the Microsoft mobility-camp, not less. And then I want:

• Microsoft to increase the speed of Pocket PC innovation.
• Pocket PC OEMs get their act together, and make even better hardware.
• Microsoft to get at least two of the top five cell phone manufacturers making the Smartphone 2002.
• Microsoft to convince mobile operators that Internet is really not a threat, and why this is so.

So, there you have it. I am not less passionate, just more paranoid.


Good thoughts Andy. Thanks

On the other hand, I was thinking of flying to the Mobile Developers Conference in London, this weekend till I found out, that our MS buddies want nearly £ 500 for that.

Surely, that is not going to convince developers to invest to much time in the PPC OS ??

$0.2

[Kemas]

What conference held by MS is free or even cheap? $715 is on the cheap side (500 Pounds). The last conference I attended was $1500 and that was for just Exchange.

[James]

What conference held by MS is free or even cheap? $715 is on the cheap side (500 Pounds). The last conference I attended was $1500 and that was for just Exchange.


Last DevDays I went to was free...but I think I heard they're charging $15(USD) for those now. That probably leaves only the sales briefings as free.

[Registered]

What conference held by MS is free or even cheap? $715 is on the cheap side (500 Pounds). The last conference I attended was $1500 and that was for just Exchange.


You went to an Exchange-only conference and paid (or had someone pay ) for it ???
Get off this board NOW! :D

[Daniel]

In generating the market share that MS have, based on somewhat open hardware, they have, being Microsoft, spurred a people into action to develop non-Microsoft solutions (Familiar). Why is this? It is, in my opinion, because people are deeply dissatisfied with what Microsoft gives them. What I would love to see when I buy my next (insert generic term here) is the option of which OS I want installed.


I'm trying to make sense of this and getting nowhere. :?



Ok, so it was 2 in the morning when I wrote that... :oops:

What I was trying to say (it's 2 in the morning again!) is that everything about the PPC platform is forced down our throats by MS. When there are no supported choices available, people make their own alternatives.

Does that make sense? :)

Daniel

[Daniel]

... long grey corridor with no doors ...

A Window to the universe that would not have been possible without their careful and insightful eXPerience. Our Microsoft brothers are truly the wise sheppards of the 21st century and have the world, today and tomorrow, in their Pocket. Only those that listen to the Word shall be able to enjoy this brave new world and Excel at the opportunities it presents to us each and every day.


:lol:

That was funny, although you could have used "Windows" instead of doors and you would have had a real (TM) fest!

daniel

[spg]

What I was trying to say (it's 2 in the morning again!) is that everything about the PPC platform is forced down our throats by MS. When there are no supported choices available, people make their own alternatives.


That makes alot more sense now! And I agree with you totally on that point, I wouldn't mind having an option or two about how I want my PDA. Same with my desktop system, I run Win XP and Linux. I like to choose which one I want, but with PPC there is no other choice. The fact is people like choices and they dislike not having choices. I'm with you totally on this one Daniel.

[spg]

I agree, the Pocket PC is great now, but at the rate Palm is going their features may surpass Pocket PC in a couple of years. Microsoft really needs to pick up the pace.

I do agree that the pocket pc industry needs to pick up the pace in some areas. But at the pace palm is currently at, I defintely dont agree that they would or could ever bypass the pocket pc. Innovation has hardly been a part of palm`s mantra.


I will admit that the at rate Palm has gone at for the last 2 or 3 years they will not ever pass the PocketPC. But with that said, in the past few months Palm has started to relize that they are losing ground, FAST. Thus with the purchase of Be Inc. and the development of Palm OS 5 they have really started to roll as far as innovation is concerned. I'll admit that as of yet we have not seen results of that, but I'll bet that by the end of the year alot of that will change. And if you look at Sony, as many people have pointed out, they have some real innovation going on with the Palm OS. They have shown that alot more can be done with it than Palm is trying to do. I still say Palm has the potential to pass PocketPC if Microsoft doesn't pick up the pace.

[Jason Dunn]

What I was trying to say (it's 2 in the morning again!) is that everything about the PPC platform is forced down our throats by MS. When there are no supported choices available, people make their own alternatives.


So why would Microsoft be in this business at all if they couldn't control the fact that a POCKET PC shipped with the POCKET PC OPERATING SYSTEM.

Come on guys, get serious - if you want a Linux PDA, get the Sharp. If you want an alternative, get a Palm. But to sit here and complain about the fact that your Pocket PC comes with a Microsoft operating system is just plain silly. :roll:

[Daniel]

That makes alot more sense now!

I'm not sure what happened the first time around, you know how things make sense when your tired but no sense after a bit of sleep?
I'd better keep my postings short as it is already 3 in the morning! ;)

Someone suggested (in another thread somewhere?) that they wouldn't want to put PalmOS on their PPC, I think that once PalmOS hits version 6 (and gets multi-tasking) it may be a viable option. Microsoft could quite easily leave PPC in the dust (hand-held PC anyone?) in favour of another technology that Bill likes better (Tablet PC anyone?).

Anyway, I think I have started not making sense again... :oops:

daniel

[spg]

What I was trying to say (it's 2 in the morning again!) is that everything about the PPC platform is forced down our throats by MS. When there are no supported choices available, people make their own alternatives.


So why would Microsoft be in this business at all if they couldn't control the fact that a POCKET PC shipped with the POCKET PC OPERATING SYSTEM.

Come on guys, get serious - if you want a Linux PDA, get the Sharp. If you want an alternative, get a Palm. But to sit here and complain about the fact that your Pocket PC comes with a Microsoft operating system is just plain silly. :roll:


I'm not complaining, but you can order a PC shipped with Linux. Why not PocketPC? If that is the way you want to look at it, why doesn't Microsoft force us to use Windows on the desktop?

Oh and just so you know, the Sharp Zarus is currently only available for developers.


Someone suggested (in another thread somewhere?) that they wouldn't want to put PalmOS on their PPC, I think that once PalmOS hits version 6 (and gets multi-tasking) it may be a viable option. Microsoft could quite easily leave PPC in the dust (hand-held PC anyone?) in favour of another technology that Bill likes better (Tablet PC anyone?).


Well I kinda doubt it, but I guess anything is possible!

[PJE]

So why would Microsoft be in this business at all if they couldn't control the fact that a POCKET PC shipped with the POCKET PC OPERATING SYSTEM.

Microsoft wants to make money, obvious really. If the devices sold with WinCE could also run Linux (as you can on the iPaq) or any other OS (Palm, Symbian?), then although they make the sale on the original OS they risk people moving to the alternative OS for their replacement devices.

In my view this is the risk Micorsoft should take, a counter the threat by continually improving the core OS and applications.

I have a iPaq (after a E100, Palm, Newton and Psion 3a). Of all those I'd say the Psion 3a was the best (for its time) and would dearly love to be be able to run the Symbian OS on my iPaq to return the the improved applications from the 3a... Although there are lots of things I like about WinCE.

My 2c

[Daniel]

So why would Microsoft be in this business at all if they couldn't control the fact that a POCKET PC shipped with the POCKET PC OPERATING SYSTEM.

Come on guys, get serious - if you want a Linux PDA, get the Sharp. If you want an alternative, get a Palm. But to sit here and complain about the fact that your Pocket PC comes with a Microsoft operating system is just plain silly. :roll:


They would be in the business for the same reason that ther are in the PC business (are they even in the PC business?), most people will still use MS software and they will still make about the same amount of money, they will just *seem* a whole lot less evil (it's about marketing). What business are they in exactly? Not making hardware that's for sure! What I am suggesting is that, having bought the hardware from an OEM I should have a choice about what goes onto it. We have this same choice with other hardware that we buy don't we? What's the difference?

&lt;warning type="may not make sense tomorrow">
With regards to getting alternatives, I already have a very capable device, why should I be required to buy another one? If I was buying it new, why wouldn't I want to buy the best hardware? It's about consumer choice. This ability to choose harware and software that best suit the consumer would enhance competition. This is a good thing.
&lt;/warning>

Thanks for pointing out my complete lack of coherence earlier too. :)

daniel

ps. I have revised this so I'm hoping that I am still making a little bit of sense... ;)

[spg]

They would be in the business for the same reason that ther are in the PC business (are they even in the PC business?), most people will still use MS software and they will still make about the same amount of money, they will just *seem* a whole lot less evil (it's about marketing). What business are they in exactly? Not making hardware that's for sure! What I am suggesting is that, having bought the hardware from an OEM I should have a choice about what goes onto it. We have this same choice with other hardware that we buy don't we? What's the difference?


Very well put. And it makes sense! :wink:

[Daniel]

Very well put. And it makes sense! :wink:

Woohoo! :D

It was like 3am when I wrote it too! I have noticed more spelling mistakes creeping in however, and it's 4am now so I'd better quit while I'm ahead! :D

daniel

[Jason Dunn]

I'm not complaining, but you can order a PC shipped with Linux. Why not PocketPC? If that is the way you want to look at it, why doesn't Microsoft force us to use Windows on the desktop?


The comparison is completely different Daniel - the desktop PC wasn't created by any one company (well, perhaps IBM), but no one "owns" the desktop PC. You can buy generic hardware from anyone, build whatever kind of PC you want, and put any OS on it that you want.

The Pocket PC is a specific line of devices created by Microsoft, not a generic concept like the "personal computer". In order to make a Pocket PC, the OEM buys the operating system license from Microsoft, and has to abide by cetain hardware guidelines when building their device (ie: no keyboard, a certain size, etc.).

You know what you're basicly saying? "I just bought Windows XP and I'm upset that I have no option other than Windows XP". It's like asking Microsoft to include a copy of Linux with every retail box of Windows XP. It's completely illogical! 8O

The best comparison in the desktop computer world would be Apple - they control the brand, the hardware, the software. Are you going to complain that you can't put Windows XP on your Apple G4? That's the equivalent of what you're doing here.


Oh and just so you know, the Sharp Zarus is currently only available for developers.


There are other Linux PDAs out there - I was simply pointing out that there are other PDAs out there.

There are a lot of things that can be legitimately criticized on the Pocket PC, but it coming with the Pocket PC operating system is not one of them. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

They would be in the business for the same reason that ther are in the PC business (are they even in the PC business?), most people will still use MS software and they will still make about the same amount of money, they will just *seem* a whole lot less evil (it's about marketing). What business are they in exactly? Not making hardware that's for sure! What I am suggesting is that, having bought the hardware from an OEM I should have a choice about what goes onto it. We have this same choice with other hardware that we buy don't we? What's the difference?


Is this conversation really happening? :?

Point me to a place where I can pay Microsoft for Pocket Word. Or Pocket Excel. Or the Pocket PC operating system in general.

You guys persist in thinking that the Pocket PC is just about the hardware. IT'S NOT - the Pocket PC is the software, the hardware, the branding, etc.

[Daniel]

Ok, beside the fact the you were actually arguing points with spg there (he quoted me, you quoted him and responded to me? now I'm confused!) I don't agree.
I would agree with you totally if we were talking about Palm (or Apple for that matter) as both of the companies actually ship and support their own hardware.
In the case of PPC MS does not make the hardware nor do they support it.
There is (correct me if I'm wrong, I probably am!) a PPC hardware spec that they give (ok OEMs probably have to pay a lot of money for it) to OEMs that they adhere to when designing their PPCs. The PPC vendor does not necessarily begin the process by asking MS for hardware spec, them make a descision to develop a device and look at alternatives. Why not then license PPC and give users the option to install Linux/Symbian/whatever on the machine? Are you telling me that the PPC licence is restrictive to the point that PPC OEMs cannot ship product without PPC OS on it? If so then don't you think this is a bad thing?

I'm not sure if we're arguing about the same things. I'm trying to be clear, but I'm not sure if have been able to clearly state my argument. :(

daniel

[Daniel]

Is this conversation really happening? :?

Yes, I'm afraid it is, although it is becomming somewhat blurry... :)

Point me to a place where I can pay Microsoft for Pocket Word. Or Pocket Excel. Or the Pocket PC operating system in general.

I realise this was rhetorical. :)

You guys persist in thinking that the Pocket PC is just about the hardware. IT'S NOT - the Pocket PC is the software, the hardware, the branding, etc.

No, I don't.
What I think is this: it would be nice if an OEM could make a device that would allow me to run PPC/Linux/Symbian/whatever by somhow balancing the requirements of these different operating systems. Given that they all support the ARM instruction set isn't it possible?

I agree that one of the major parts of the PPC platform is the branding. But this the not a major part of the little silver thing that sits on my desk, were I to, say, rub off the "pocket pc" bit.
I also agree that the PPC platform is made up of all the things that you have stated.

What I am (have been trying to?) suggesting is that a market for small portable devices that more closely matched that of the PC market would be good for consumers. By "more closely matched" I mean that hardware be interchangeable.

daniel

[spg]

Ok, now I am really getting confused. I'm not even sure who is who anymore. But that point aside-


Point me to a place where I can pay Microsoft for Pocket Word. Or Pocket Excel. Or the Pocket PC operating system in general.

You guys persist in thinking that the Pocket PC is just about the hardware. IT'S NOT - the Pocket PC is the software, the hardware, the branding, etc.

YOU personally cannot, but that is a very real expense to companies such as Compaq, HP and Casio. They do have to pay the license to allow you to purchase their hardware with the PocketPC OS on it. Same thing goes with PC, at first you could by a Apple Computer, or an IBM (note this next part) with the Microsoft OS (DOS). Same thing here, you can by Palm, or Handspring, Sony, HandEra with the Palm OS, or Compaq, HP, Casio, or Toshiba with the Microsoft handheld OS, in this case PocketPC.


You know what you're basicly saying? "I just bought Windows XP and I'm upset that I have no option other than Windows XP". It's like asking Microsoft to include a copy of Linux with every retail box of Windows XP. It's completely illogical!


No I'm not saying I bought Win XP and I want it with Linux. I am saying I bought a Compaq Computer, and I have the right to put whatever OS I want on it! Compaq has nothing to do with Microsoft, except for the fact that they use their OS. And the same Compaq controls their iPAQ hardware for whatever OS they choose to install.


The best comparison in the desktop computer world would be Apple - they control the brand, the hardware, the software. Are you going to complain that you can't put Windows XP on your Apple G4? That's the equivalent of what you're doing here.


I would compare Apple to Palm, they have the brand, hardware and software. Microsoft is a SOFTWARE company with HARDWARE partners! They do not manafacter any hardware, and they don't have any control over what Compaq or HP puts in their hardware. Now I will admit that Microsoft does make the Xbox, but has nothing to do with handhelds.

Oh and you may recall, there is a company who builds PowerPCs that can run the Manitosh OS or the Windows OS. Why? People wanted choices!

There are a lot of things that can be legitimately criticized on the Pocket PC, but it coming with the Pocket PC operating system is not one of them.

The Pocket PC does not come with the Pocket PC OS, the Compaq iPAQ comes with the Pocket PC OS, and the HP Jornada comes with the Pocket PC OS, etc...
I am reminded of the Microsoft ads, "Software Does Matter". Now why would they advertise that if they had control over the hardware????

Wow, that was a long post. I think I just set a new personal record! And Jason I agree with you on most things, but on this point, or opinions don't line up.

[Jason Dunn]

Are you telling me that the PPC licence is restrictive to the point that PPC OEMs cannot ship product without PPC OS on it?


YES! That's the thing you guys don't seem to understand - it's NOT a Pocket PC unless it has the POCKET PC operating system on it.

Compaq could take the iPAQ hardware, put Linux or something else on there, and sell it as a "Compaq iPAQ PDA" or whatever else they want to call it. Microsoft wouldn't be affected one way or the other - it's not a Pocket PC, couldn't run Pocket PC apps, etc.

What you guys are asking for is the Pocket PC hardware from the OEMs to arrive like a blank hard drive on a PC. They COULD do that, but you wouldn't be able to put a licensed version of the Pocket PC operating system on there. Microsoft isn't about to let the Pocket PC market fragment into a million pieces with a "do it yourself" PDAs.

Once again, the Pocket PC as we know it is a mix of hardware and software. You can't have one without the other. I'm all for choice, which is exactly what you have: Palm, Pocket PC, Linux devices, etc. Pick one and use it.

But complaining about the fact that you can't take the best of all worlds and combine it is pointless.


If so then don't you think this is a bad thing?


Not at all. In order for a platform to succeed, you need market momentum. In order to have market momentum, you need to get a whole bunch of OEMs, put them in a straight line, and tell them where you go. If Microsoft has just said "Hey, we have this OS, why don't you all slap some hardware together and install this on it", which no guildelines about what the device was going to be, do you think the Pocket PC market would exist at all?

Look at how "successful" the AGENDA (http://www.agendacomputing.com/) was in the market. If you're just a one-off device that doesn't link into a bigger community in a structured way, you might as well give up and go home...

[Jason Dunn]

What I am (have been trying to?) suggesting is that a market for small portable devices that more closely matched that of the PC market would be good for consumers. By "more closely matched" I mean that hardware be interchangeable.


I don't disagree with that. In fact, I think it would be EXCELLENT to have every Palm OEM, every Pocket PC OEM, and every PDA OEM all fighting it out to make the best hardware design possible, and we could install whatever OS we want on it. So why aren't they doing that?

Because that would completely fail in the marketplace.

Most people aren't like you or I - they want to buy a box on the store shelf, take it home, turn it on and have everything work. The vast majority of the market WANTS a nice bundle that is ready to go out of the box. Why do you think more people buy Dell/Compaq/IBM computers with everything pre-installed versus buying a no-name computer with a blank hard drive and installing everything themselves? Because the majority of the people don't want to have to do that.

The whole reason we're having this discussion is that what you guys originally said was you said you thought it was unfair that your POCKET PC had the POCKET PC operating system on it. And that's what I was taking issue with - it's a completely illogical statement. If you take away the Pocket PC operating system, it's not a Pocket PC - it's a PDA with nothing on it. :D

[Jason Dunn]

No I'm not saying I bought Win XP and I want it with Linux. I am saying I bought a Compaq Computer, and I have the right to put whatever OS I want on it! Compaq has nothing to do with Microsoft, except for the fact that they use their OS. And the same Compaq controls their iPAQ hardware for whatever OS they choose to install.


Right - but that Compaq computer that you're going to put Linux on already came with XP right? So Microsoft got their licensing fee - they really don't care what OS you put on there.

Question: does Compaq sell retail computers with no operating system?
Answer: No.
Reason: It would be a complete marketing flop because the majority of the public doesn't want to mess with installing an OS. Further, they don't want an "alternative OS". They want to have what everyone else on their block has: Windows. There's a reason why Linux is a complete failure on the desktop in terms of market penetration guys!


Microsoft is a SOFTWARE company with HARDWARE partners! They do not manafacter any hardware, and they don't have any control over what Compaq or HP puts in their hardware.


Oh really? Then why are all 2002 devices suddenly ARM? Why are they all 320 x 240 resolution? The fact is that Microsoft has a significant say in what hardware goes into the Pocket PCs made by their OEMs. FAR more say than how much RAM Compaq puts into their desktop PCs.


The Pocket PC does not come with the Pocket PC OS, the Compaq iPAQ comes with the Pocket PC OS, and the HP Jornada comes with the Pocket PC OS, etc.


Point me to a Pocket PC that doesn't come with the Pocket PC operating system please... :wink: There isn't one! I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I'm trying to prove a point.

This is taking up way to much of my time, so I'm not going to respond again today - I hope I've made my point. :)

[spg]

Are you telling me that the PPC licence is restrictive to the point that PPC OEMs cannot ship product without PPC OS on it?


YES! That's the thing you guys don't seem to understand - it's NOT a Pocket PC unless it has the POCKET PC operating system on it.

Compaq could take the iPAQ hardware, put Linux or something else on there, and sell it as a "Compaq iPAQ PDA" or whatever else they want to call it. Microsoft wouldn't be affected one way or the other - it's not a Pocket PC, couldn't run Pocket PC apps, etc.


Well DUH!!!! Of course it isn't a Pocket PC if it doesn't have the Pocket PC OS on it! I'm not saying I want a Pocket PC with another OS. I want a piece of hardware that I can choose what OS I want on it. If I put the Pocket PC OS on it, great! It is now a PocketPC. But if I put Linux on it, that is great too, but now it is a Linux device. That is all I want them to allow, I'm not asking them to allow a Microsoft brand to suddenly be shipped with Linux!

Most people aren't like you or I - they want to buy a box on the store shelf, take it home, turn it on and have everything work. The vast majority of the market WANTS a nice bundle that is ready to go out of the box. Why do you think more people buy Dell/Compaq/IBM computers with everything pre-installed versus buying a no-name computer with a blank hard drive and installing everything themselves? Because the majority of the people don't want to have to do that.

Very, very true, but I can go out and buy and HP computer with Windows already installed and then put linux on it with no problem. That is all I want out of a Pocket PC as well! Just the ability to use another OS if I want to. Compaq has already started to do that with the flash rom. There are linux distributions for the iPAQ.

The whole reason we're having this discussion is that what you guys originally said was you said you thought it was unfair that your POCKET PC had the POCKET PC operating system on it. And that's what I was taking issue with - it's a completely illogical statement. If you take away the Pocket PC operating system, it's not a Pocket PC - it's a PDA with nothing on it.

I never said I wanted a Pocket PC without the Pocket PC OS, I said I want the option to install another OS over the Pocket PC OS if I want to. I agree with you, if I thought I was saying that is was unfair that a Pocket PC could not have another OS on it and be called a PocketPC, I would have... well maybe I'd better not say :lol:.

[spg]

Right - but that Compaq computer that you're going to put Linux on already came with XP right? So Microsoft got their licensing fee - they really don't care what OS you put on there.


Duh!! Why can't they do the same exact thing with PocketPCs? Because it can't be a Pocket PC with the Pocket PC OS, i know! I don't want a Pocket PC without the Pocket PC OS, I want an iPAQ with choices of what OS I want!



Microsoft is a SOFTWARE company with HARDWARE partners! They do not manafacter any hardware, and they don't have any control over what Compaq or HP puts in their hardware.


Oh really? Then why are all 2002 devices suddenly ARM? Why are they all 320 x 240 resolution? The fact is that Microsoft has a significant say in what hardware goes into the Pocket PCs made by their OEMs. FAR more say than how much RAM Compaq puts into their desktop PCs.

They are all 320x240 because that is what Microsoft made the default resolution in the SOFTWARE, and the hardware manafacturers didn't see any reason to spend extra money to make the HARDWARE support more. And about ARM, well what did you expect intel friendly companies to use? Motorolla?



The Pocket PC does not come with the Pocket PC OS, the Compaq iPAQ comes with the Pocket PC OS, and the HP Jornada comes with the Pocket PC OS, etc.

Point me to a Pocket PC that doesn't come with the Pocket PC operating system please... :wink: There isn't one! I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I'm trying to prove a point.
Of course a Pocket PC comes with the Pocket PC software! It would not br a Pocket PC if it didn't! How many times will I have to say it? I don't want a Pocket PC without the Pocket PC OS! Why? I can't have it! I want a iPAQ with a choice of OS. Not an iPAQ Pocket PC, just a plain iPAQ. I know they have some of this already, you can get linux and put in on an iPAQ. My point is people want choices, and the hardware OEMs are not giving it to them. There needs to be multi-platform support in a handheld (not a Pocket PC, a handheld!) that is all I am trying to get at!


This is taking up way to much of my time, so I'm not going to respond again today - I hope I've made my point. :)


Whew! That was long, oh well, it is building my post count up :wink:. Oh and the only reason I posted twice is your second reply came after I started replying to the first one. Anyway you have made the point, a Pocket PC is not a Pocket PC if it does not have the Pocket PC OS. I agree totally, that is not what I have been saying people want. But anyway, makes for interesting discussion! :)

[Jason Dunn]

That is all I want out of a Pocket PC as well! Just the ability to use another OS if I want to.


No, that's what you want out of a PDA. You keep using Pocket PC as a generic term, when what you're really saying is that you want someone to create a PDA that will let you choose the OS you want. Words matter - Pocket PC is NOT the same as PDA.

Ponder that for a few minutes before responding please. :wink:

[spg]

That is all I want out of a Pocket PC as well! Just the ability to use another OS if I want to.


No, that's what you want out of a PDA. You keep using Pocket PC as a generic term, when what you're really saying is that you want someone to create a PDA that will let you choose the OS you want. Words matter - Pocket PC is NOT the same as PDA.

Ponder that for a few minutes before responding please. :wink:


You are quite right, I typed in the wrong word. That is all I want out of a PDA. I've been trying to get my words right, but I get them confused typing these long messages.

Oh and I thought you were not going to reply again today :wink: :lol:. j/k

[Dave Conger]

I want a iPAQ with a choice of OS. Not an iPAQ Pocket PC, just a plain iPAQ. I know they have some of this already, you can get linux and put in on an iPAQ. My point is people want choices, and the hardware OEMs are not giving it to them.

I don't quite understand where your problem is. You buy an iPAQ, and it comes with Pocket PC. You download Linux (there are quite a few flavors now) and you flash it over the ROM. I have a friend that does this all the time. Both his iPAQ's hardly ever have Pocket PC on them. He is a die hard Linux user, and the iPAQ supports Pocket PC. For the general public, that doesn't want or use Linux, it is only going to be more confusing for which iPAQ comes with what.

As I said above, there are multiple flavors of Linux for the iPAQ, which one do you put on your iPAQ? If you say download and flash it, then Compaq is going to have to do a lot more fixing of people that miss flashed there ROM's.

Hardware manufatures always have a choice on what OS to put on their product, look at Sharp. They went with Linux, but I still haven't seen their product in a store or heard a lot of talk on other boards about it. If Compaq is to support Linux on the iPAQ, then should Sharp have to support a purchasable version of Pocket PC?

[spg]

I want a iPAQ with a choice of OS. Not an iPAQ Pocket PC, just a plain iPAQ. I know they have some of this already, you can get linux and put in on an iPAQ. My point is people want choices, and the hardware OEMs are not giving it to them.

I don't quite understand where your problem is. You buy an iPAQ, and it comes with Pocket PC. You download Linux (there are quite a few flavors now) and you flash it over the ROM. I have a friend that does this all the time. Both his iPAQ's hardly ever have Pocket PC on them. He is a die hard Linux user, and the iPAQ supports Pocket PC. For the general public, that doesn't want or use Linux, it is only going to be more confusing for which iPAQ comes with what. They don't have to support it, does Compaq support a Presario with Linux on it? No! All I am saying is give the option of another OS to be installed.

As I said above, there are multiple flavors of Linux for the iPAQ, which one do you put on your iPAQ? If you say download and flash it, then Compaq is going to have to do a lot more fixing of people that miss flashed there ROM's.

Hardware manufatures always have a choice on what OS to put on their product, look at Sharp. They went with Linux, but I still haven't seen their product in a store or heard a lot of talk on other boards about it. If Compaq is to support Linux on the iPAQ, then should Sharp have to support a purchasable version of Pocket PC?


This is very true, I am just saying that more hardware should be multi-platform ready. Not just the iPAQ, but PDAs in general. If it would work like the PC I think that would be great. It comes with a base OS, of the OEM's own choosing, and other OSes can be purchased to be installed. Right now most PDAs are one platform, no way to change, that is all I am driving at! And as with sharp, lets just say for the sake of discussion there are three OSes, Linux OS, Pocket PC OS, and Palm OS. Now there are a handful of hardware companies creating the hardware it takes to run these OSes. The companies do as they do with PCs now, put a base OS on, and if anyone wants another OS they can go buy it and install it. They can choose whatever OS they want, and so can the consumer.

[Foo Fighter]

Damn, this discussion really turned into a pile of Spaghetti.

First of all, it is up to the OEM to bundle operating systems with hardware products. PocketPC is merely a brand name, just as "Palm-Powered" refers to devices that run on PalmOS. If Handspring would ship a Visor running Linux, it could no longer be described as a "Palm". I don't believe there is any restriction placed on hardware vendors by Microsoft, limiting the creation of "alternative" platforms. Compaq could create an iPaq clone running Linux and market it, so long as they do not apply the "PocketPC" moniker to the product.

Anyway, we're all going off the deep end here just a little. :?

:idea:

Back to the topic: Since Palm is moving to ARM/Xscale, I wonder if Microsoft could build a compatibility layer into WinCE that would enable PocketPC to run PalmOS apps? I don't mean the hacked Palm Emulator that runs on PPC now, but the true ability to run Palm apps in full window.

That could be a huge blow to Palm.

[spg]

Damn, this discussion really turned into a pile of Spaghetti.

First of all, it is up to the OEM to bundle operating systems with hardware products. PocketPC is merely a brand name, just as "Palm-Powered" refers to devices that run on PalmOS. If Handspring would ship a Visor running Linux, it could no longer be described as a "Palm". I don't believe there is any restriction placed on hardware vendors by Microsoft, limiting the creation of "alternative" platforms. Compaq could create an iPaq clone running Linux and market it, so long as they do not apply the "PocketPC" moniker to the product.

Anyway, we're all going off the deep end here just a little. :?


Of course there is no restriction, they could do that at anytime. But the fact remains, most current PDAs only allow one platform to be installed.

And yes we are going off the deep end. :?


Back to the topic: Since Palm is moving to ARM/Xscale, I wonder if Microsoft could build a compatibility layer into WinCE that would enable PocketPC to run PalmOS apps? I don't mean the hacked Palm Emulator that runs on PPC now, but the true ability to run Palm apps in full window.

That could be a huge blow to Palm.


I would think the answer would be yes, if Microsoft wanted to get sued and go to court and lose! They could not do that legaly due to the ownership of the Palm OS by Palm. Of course they could get a license, but do you really think Palm would allow that? Just my two cents.

[Dave Conger]

This is very true, I am just saying that more hardware should be multi-platform ready. Not just the iPAQ, but PDAs in general. If it would work like the PC I think that would be great. It comes with a base OS, of the OEM's own choosing, and other OSes can be purchased to be installed. Right now most PDAs are one platform, no way to change, that is all I am driving at!

Right, so companies need to put in flash roms, then you can do other OS's (someone just has to build them). You can get Linux more devices then just the iPAQ, including some Palms.

[spg]

This is very true, I am just saying that more hardware should be multi-platform ready. Not just the iPAQ, but PDAs in general. If it would work like the PC I think that would be great. It comes with a base OS, of the OEM's own choosing, and other OSes can be purchased to be installed. Right now most PDAs are one platform, no way to change, that is all I am driving at!

Right, so companies need to put in flash roms, then you can do other OS's (someone just has to build them). You can get Linux more devices then just the iPAQ, including some Palms.


Exactly! Or start putting microdrives inside, then you could have a hard drive to install the OS on, instead of ROM.

[Jason Dunn]

Exactly! Or start putting microdrives inside, then you could have a hard drive to install the OS on, instead of ROM.


Except for the fact that moving parts drastically undermine the advantages in both durability and battery life that PDAs offer over laptops. :roll:

[spg]

Exactly! Or start putting microdrives inside, then you could have a hard drive to install the OS on, instead of ROM.


Except for the fact that moving parts drastically undermine the advantages in both durability and battery life that PDAs offer over laptops. :roll:


True, but that gets us back to the whole topic of this post - "Innovate or get hit on the head". While this would be next to impossible now, the ability to increase battery life would eventually make this a feasible option.

[Jason Dunn]

True, but that gets us back to the whole topic of this post - "Innovate or get hit on the head". While this would be next to impossible now, the ability to increase battery life would eventually make this a feasible option.


Jeese, we're disagreeing about everything today! :lol:

Solid-state storage is the future of storage, not spinning platters of metal and plastic. It doesn't matter how good battery life gets - moving parts will ALWAYS cause more battery drain than solid state memory, they're louder, and they're more prone to damage and breakdown. Trust me, I own a 1 gig Microdrive that is flaky from being dropped - moving parts are not the best way to go on a portable device.

With 1 gig SD cards coming out by the end of this year, the Microdrive had bettery improve a heck of a lot of it will be useless.

The REAL future of storage is a biological gel that stores data as DNA...seriously. 8)

[Foo Fighter]

Except for the fact that moving parts drastically undermine the advantages in both durability and battery life that PDAs offer over laptops. :roll:


That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. Anything that spins consumes power. And I can't imagine any amount of shielding will be able to protect a Microdrive, when dropping your PDA. As soon as that tiny head hits the platter...it's all over.

Flash RAM/ROM may be expensive and limited, but it is the most practical solution for mobile devices we have at the moment. Memory and displays are the two critical components of a PDA, and account for the bulk of cost. I hope OLED displays will be the salvation to our display dilemma, but I know of no technology that can replace Flash memory. DataPlay seems to have fallen off the cliff?

[spg]

True, but that gets us back to the whole topic of this post - "Innovate or get hit on the head". While this would be next to impossible now, the ability to increase battery life would eventually make this a feasible option.


Jeese, we're disagreeing about everything today! :lol:

Solid-state storage is the future of storage, not spinning platters of metal and plastic. It doesn't matter how good battery life gets - moving parts will ALWAYS cause more battery drain than solid state memory, they're louder, and they're more prone to damage and breakdown. Trust me, I own a 1 gig Microdrive that is flaky from being dropped - moving parts are not the best way to go on a portable device.

With 1 gig SD cards coming out by the end of this year, the Microdrive had bettery improve a heck of a lot of it will be useless.

The REAL future of storage is a biological gel that stores data as DNA...seriously. 8)


Ok, so I'm wrong about the microdrive, maybe they will come up with something!

And as for that gel, bring it on! 8)

[Jason Dunn]

Flash RAM/ROM may be expensive and limited, but it is the most practical solution for mobile devices we have at the moment. Memory and displays are the two critical components of a PDA, and account for the bulk of cost. I hope OLED displays will be the salvation to our display dilemma, but I know of no technology that can replace Flash memory. DataPlay seems to have fallen off the cliff?


As more and more devices use large Flash ROMs, we'll see improvements in performance and cost. Intel StrataFlash is a step in the right direction.

DataPlay is still a moving part - they're small MO discs, but more durable than Microdrives, and they have major caching for battery life. This had better be the year of DataPlay....they're out of time. :?

[spg]

DataPlay is still a moving part - they're small MO discs, but more durable than Microdrives, and they have major caching for battery life. This had better be the year of DataPlay....they're out of time. :?


Hey, I just found something we agree on! I agree that if DataPlay doesn't catch on this year, it will never catch on.

[Daniel]

DataPlay is still a moving part - they're small MO discs, but more durable than Microdrives, and they have major caching for battery life. This had better be the year of DataPlay....they're out of time. :?

Even I agree with that!

I also agree that microdrives is not where the future of storage is in PDAs (boy I'm glad we agreed on a generic term finally!).

I realy want to respond to you Jason, you quoted me earlier saying that "you guys" were saying it was "unfair" that I couldn't have any OS on my iPAQ Pocket PC. I don't think it is unfair. I think it would be great for consumers if an OEM released a PDA that supported all the ARM supporting OSes or the OS writers agreed on a standard for PDAs.

By "great for consumers" I mean it would increase competition.
By "consumers" of course I mean me. ;)

daniel

[Kre]

True, but that gets us back to the whole topic of this post - "Innovate or get hit on the head". While this would be next to impossible now, the ability to increase battery life would eventually make this a feasible option.


Jeese, we're disagreeing about everything today! :lol:



Yes, it`s called circular arguing.

You really had your work cut out for ya in this thread last couple a days, Jason! :lol:

[James]

okay, I can't resist, since we' back where we started. The real topic should be: Innovate, or get hit on the head, but don't succeed or you'll get hit on the head anyway.

[Dave Conger]

Wern't we suppose to start seeing bigger (storage wise) Microdrives coming out? IBM said they had some new technology for 400gb Hard drives which translated to the microdrives being able to go up to 6gb? I am a little surprised we haven't seen a 1.5gb or 2gb Microdrive out yet to compete with the, now older, Toshiba PCMCIA cards.

[James]

Wern't we suppose to start seeing bigger (storage wise) Microdrives coming out? IBM said they had some new technology for 400gb Hard drives which translated to the microdrives being able to go up to 6gb? I am a little surprised we haven't seen a 1.5gb or 2gb Microdrive out yet to compete with the, now older, Toshiba PCMCIA cards.


I just read somewhere (I'll try to find the article, but it's probably buried in the stack at the office) about a 5GB microdrive due out before the end of the year.

[spg]

I just read somewhere (I'll try to find the article, but it's probably buried in the stack at the office) about a 5GB microdrive due out before the end of the year.


Seems like I read that somewhere too. I think it also said something about a 2 gig coming out sometime in the second or third quarters. If you find it, am I right about that?

[Dave Conger]

I just read somewhere (I'll try to find the article, but it's probably buried in the stack at the office) about a 5GB microdrive due out before the end of the year.


I just remember the article quite a while ago about the potenital for the 6GB drives. Chances are they said they would be expected around then end of 2002 since companies like to give a projected release for products they haven't exactly started working on yet. :wink:

[Dave Conger]

I just read somewhere (I'll try to find the article, but it's probably buried in the stack at the office) about a 5GB microdrive due out before the end of the year.


Actually, here is IBM's press release about the pixie dust breakthrough. It was origionally posted on: May 21st 2001

http://www.ibm.com/news/2001/05/21.phtml

[spg]

Actually, here is IBM's press release about the pixie dust breakthrough. It was origionally posted on: May 21st 2001

http://www.ibm.com/news/2001/05/21.phtml


Yeah, I had read that too. But seems like I remember reading a article somewhere else about actual timing of releases. I can't remember for the life of me where that was! I'll keep looking though :).

[Daniel]

I saw that ages ago too. I still think that I would prefer to have solid state memory as opposed to a platter. The technology is just more stabe. We're supposed to get 1GB in SD format this year at some stage. Unless you're totally hardcore about carrying data around on your PDA then 1GB is sufficient (I hear the echo of "640kB is more than enough"); until PDA apps get bigger!

daniel

[Dave Conger]

I saw that ages ago too. I still think that I would prefer to have solid state memory as opposed to a platter. The technology is just more stabe. We're supposed to get 1GB in SD format this year at some stage. Unless you're totally hardcore about carrying data around on your PDA then 1GB is sufficient (I hear the echo of "640kB is more than enough"); until PDA apps get bigger!


1gb SD cards, this year? Well I guess they have 10 more months, but I remember how SD took quite a while to reach above 64mb at a decent price. I would hope that we would also see some expandibility cards seeing as the SD I/O specs are set.

[James]

1gb SD cards, this year? Well I guess they have 10 more months, but I remember how SD took quite a while to reach above 64mb at a decent price. I would hope that we would also see some expandibility cards seeing as the SD I/O specs are set.


I think it's all been about production levels. Now that quite a few PDAs and other devices are using SD, the demand is up and there's a lot of demand for larger capacities. The 128MB cards are getting to the sweet point (&lt;$1/MB), so they've already started down the slope.

[spg]

1gb SD cards, this year? Well I guess they have 10 more months, but I remember how SD took quite a while to reach above 64mb at a decent price. I would hope that we would also see some expandibility cards seeing as the SD I/O specs are set.


I think it's all been about production levels. Now that quite a few PDAs and other devices are using SD, the demand is up and there's a lot of demand for larger capacities. The 128MB cards are getting to the sweet point (&lt;$1/MB), so they've already started down the slope.


Wow, I hope this turns out to be true. If they can shrink 1GB into SD size, they can do anything. Well, almost anything :).

[Daniel]

I have it on good authority that we'll also see 2GB SD cards next year. I have also seen a picture of (don't remember where) a BT+64MB SD card, that opens up a world of possibilities.

I just don't think that I would put enough data on my PPC to warrant 6GB, I just don't use it that way. I'm sure that other people do however so there'll probably be a market, even if it is just for nerd points! ;) I sure would use more thatn 64MB if I had it though, I'll probably do the Times2Tech thing when my warranty is over.

daniel

[Dave Conger]

I have it on good authority that we'll also see 2GB SD cards next year. I have also seen a picture of (don't remember where) a BT+64MB SD card, that opens up a world of possibilities.


2gb within the next year, or next year meaning 2003? I don't think we will see quite that big since the CF 1gb cards are just starting to come out.

I like the memory/bluetooth idea...definatly opens a world of possilbilities!

[JonnoB]

I have it on good authority that we'll also see 2GB SD cards next year. I have also seen a picture of (don't remember where) a BT+64MB SD card, that opens up a world of possibilities.


Bluetooth, memory, and then a CF full motion camera... I could do wireless webcam!

[spg]

Bluetooth, memory, and then a CF full motion camera... I could do wireless webcam!


Now that would be cool, but I have a feeling it will be a while before anything like that comes out. But we can always dream! 8)

We're supposed to get 1GB in SD format this year at some stage. Unless you're totally hardcore about carrying data around on your PDA then 1GB is sufficient (I hear the echo of "640kB is more than enough"); until PDA apps get bigger!

Carry around your whole music collection with you, use it instead of radio! :wink: Ok so that isn't the most technical use of the technology, but hey it would be cool! 640kB is more than enough, 640kB is more than enough, 640kB is more than enough,640kB is more than enough. :P

[Daniel]

2gb within the next year, or next year meaning 2003? I don't think we will see quite that big since the CF 1gb cards are just starting to come out.

In 2003.

640kB is more than enough, 640kB is more than enough, 640kB is more than enough, 640kB is more than enough.

I'm guessing that "Until we release our next version of anything which will take up ((current version size) * 2^9) times the space" was the implied subtext that we weren't able to pick up because we weren't evil enough... ;)

Bluetooth, memory, and then a CF full motion camera... I could do wireless webcam!

Combining stuff in SD cards is going to be very very cool.

daniel

[JonnoB]

Combining stuff in SD cards is going to be very very cool.



We haven't seen it with CF cards, will it happen with SD?

[Jason Dunn]

We haven't seen it with CF cards, will it happen with SD?


In SEVERAL years, yes, but trying to fit anything other than memory is a big challenge. The fact that they did a Bluetooh card shocked me. :-)

[Dave Conger]

In SEVERAL years, yes, but trying to fit anything other than memory is a big challenge. The fact that they did a Bluetooh card shocked me. :-)


I was always suprised Palm showed of some mock-up SD expansion cards way back when they were releasing the m500 since I felt like at that point we didn't even have a I/O standard for SD.

[Daniel]

We haven't seen it with CF cards, will it happen with SD?In SEVERAL years, yes, but trying to fit anything other than memory is a big challenge. The fact that they did a Bluetooh card shocked me. :-)

Maybe the photo was a marketing version of the product, but it was clearly a combination 64MB/BT card.

Do you remember where this photo was Jason? I think it was in the CBIT photos that were on http://www.PocketPCPassion.com/? I don't remember, sorry.

daniel

[Jason Dunn]

I was always suprised Palm showed of some mock-up SD expansion cards way back when they were releasing the m500 since I felt like at that point we didn't even have a I/O standard for SD.


If I see that photo of Karl and that STUPID little SD camera I'll go on a killing spree. :evil: It's so pathetic so use toy mock-ups and show them off to the gullible press to convince them that your platform supports "cool stuff" when the "cool stuff" is four years away.... :roll:

[Daniel]

If I see that photo of Karl and that STUPID little SD camera I'll go on a killing spree. :evil: It's so pathetic so use toy mock-ups and show them off to the gullible press to convince them that your platform supports "cool stuff" when the "cool stuff" is four years away.... :roll:

So Palm isn't cool? ;)

But they have a wireless device, they must be hip and cool and funky.

riiiight

daniel

[Dave Conger]

If I see that photo of Karl and that STUPID little SD camera I'll go on a killing spree. :evil: It's so pathetic so use toy mock-ups and show them off to the gullible press to convince them that your platform supports "cool stuff" when the "cool stuff" is four years away.... :roll:


But Jason, they are mark-ups man...that is like basically a prototype and a prototype is only a couple months away from a beta....oh, and a beta, psh, you can see a beta! The things that don't work are just features.

So I will have to "disagree" with you that the plastic toy SD expansions cause basically they are just right around the corner...still.... :wink: :wink: :wink:

[JonnoB]

In SEVERAL years, yes, but trying to fit anything other than memory is a big challenge. The fact that they did a Bluetooh card shocked me. :-)


In several years? Heck, by then, SD will be obsolete and something else will be the new technology. It has not taken long for CF to be looked down upon. I care less about multi-function cards if I could get 4 slots in a PDA for expansion without taking up more space. Remember, most PocketPCs have nothing on the right side...

[James]

In several years? Heck, by then, SD will be obsolete and something else will be the new technology. It has not taken long for CF to be looked down upon. I care less about multi-function cards if I could get 4 slots in a PDA for expansion without taking up more space. Remember, most PocketPCs have nothing on the right side...


I dunno about obsolete - I think that if they go much smaller the loss rate will go thru the roof and people won't buy them at all. Since capacities can grow for a particular form factor for quite a few years, I think SD will be around for a long time.

[Daniel]

My work still has a loner e570, we're hoping to get one of the BT SD cards in from Toshiba. Should be pretty cool, I'll have to try it out with my T39 and see how it goes.

daniel

[spg]

In several years? Heck, by then, SD will be obsolete and something else will be the new technology. It has not taken long for CF to be looked down upon. I care less about multi-function cards if I could get 4 slots in a PDA for expansion without taking up more space. Remember, most PocketPCs have nothing on the right side...


I dunno about obsolete - I think that if they go much smaller the loss rate will go thru the roof and people won't buy them at all. Since capacities can grow for a particular form factor for quite a few years, I think SD will be around for a long time.


I agree, they can't get much smaller then they are right now. However they may change the name and connectors by then, the press will think they are not innovating if the name stays the same :wink:.

[spg]

640kB is more than enough, 640kB is more than enough, 640kB is more than enough, 640kB is more than enough.

I'm guessing that "Until we release our next version of anything which will take up ((current version size) * 2^9) times the space" was the implied subtext that we weren't able to pick up because we weren't evil enough... ;)


ok......

[Dave Conger]

I agree, they can't get much smaller then they are right now. However they may change the name and connectors by then, the press will think they are not innovating if the name stays the same :wink:.


I don't really think I would want to see things get to much smaller!

[James]

I agree, they can't get much smaller then they are right now. However they may change the name and connectors by then, the press will think they are not innovating if the name stays the same :wink:.


Perhaps, but being innovated means that your competition will get the government to sue you! :evil:

[spg]

I agree, they can't get much smaller then they are right now. However they may change the name and connectors by then, the press will think they are not innovating if the name stays the same :wink:.


Perhaps, but being innovated means that your competition will get the government to sue you! :evil:

Oh yeah I forgot... Maybe they will use the AOL tactic, merge and give excuses,(cough, clears throat) uh I mean things you are going to do after you merge. :twisted:

[James]

Oh yeah I forgot... Maybe they will use the AOL tactic, merge and give excuses,(cough, clears throat) uh I mean things you are going to do after you merge. :twisted:


Not to mention the tried and true "We would NEVER do that. We're offended that you would imply such a thing!"

[Daniel]

I agree, they can't get much smaller then they are right now. However they may change the name and connectors by then, the press will think they are not innovating if the name stays the same :wink:.

he he, any guesses on next acronym?

I don't really think I would want to see things get to much smaller!

"Look, this is my new &lt;acronym>, it stores 50GB!"
"Where is it"
"Here"
"Where?"
"Oh damn, it has to be around here somewhere..."

nasty

daniel

[Dave Conger]

"Oh damn, it has to be around here somewhere..."


"Hey man, you got a spec on your shirt there.."
"Ummm, thats my new flash memory. Only $40 at Frys for 10gb."

[Daniel]

"Hey man, you got a spec on your shirt there.."
"Ummm, thats my new flash memory. Only $40 at Frys for 10gb."

Ha ha ha :lol:

Boy you could fit HEAPS of them in a Vaja case! You may however want to invest in the microscopic caliper option that comes with that particular case...

daniel
ps. damn this thread rocks

[spg]

I agree, they can't get much smaller then they are right now. However they may change the name and connectors by then, the press will think they are not innovating if the name stays the same :wink:.

he he, any guesses on next acronym?

SOS - Small Open Storage :wink:

That wasn't my best creative idea of all time, but it I guess it works. :)

[Dave Conger]

he he, any guesses on next acronym?



Seems like some acronyms are getting a little big now....PPC2KPE? Think we could shorten them down a little... :wink:

[Newsboy]

...what is the next PPC OS, and is it in development yet? Merlin leaked for a year before it was released, but we've heard very little about the next Microsoft OS we'll be using.

And please tell me ARM will continue to be supported! I just got a new Pocket PC b/c my EM-500 didn't have Flashable ROM! Don't tell me I won't be able to upgrade!?!?

As for prices, look what happened starting around this time last year. The price of Pocket PCs started dropping like a rock (kinda like the Audiovox is now...hmmm), with the EM-500 and HP units going below $300, and then even $200 at times. Heck, in September, you could get a 3150 for $99, before anyone knew you'd be able to upgrade to PPC 2002 for free. Then in October/November prices shot up again, staying over $400 until just a few weeks ago, and now we have $200-250 current generation products available again. When Xscale comes, I think we'll see 64 mb ARM devices drop to $200-300, with 32 mb devices in the $180-250 range.

Now as a side note, it amazes me that I just bought a refurbished EM-500 for $150 at Outpost.com, and I can turn around and sell it for $225+ on Ebay, no problem.

What happened to all the smart people in the world? Oh yeah they're probably reading this. :P

[Newsboy]

I agree, they can't get much smaller then they are right now. However they may change the name and connectors by then, the press will think they are not innovating if the name stays the same :wink:.


If someone figures out how to make a "paper thin" SD card, the post office could start selling memory. You could ship it for 34 cents anywhere in the US. :D

Boy do I need to get some sleep.

[JonnoB]

What happened to all the smart people in the world? Oh yeah they're probably reading this. :P


Er, duh... dink. Trying to think, but nothing happens!