Is Palm's Pocket PC Clone Too Late?

[Jason Dunn]

<a href="http://www.mbizcentral.com/story/FRONTPAGE/MBZ20020206S0011">http://www.mbizcentral.com/story/FRONTPAGE/MBZ20020206S0011</a><br /><br />I think that title says is all - Palm's OS 5, not even shipping yet, isn't very exciting to most people who have seen it. We'll have to see what the new OS 5 devices look like (Sony might produce a killer device), but let's face it: the Palm advantage is eroding. Does anyone think that Palm can put a 200+ Mhz StrongARM processor, 32+ megs of RAM, high-resolution 16-bit colour screens, real speakers, a headphone jack, control pad, and other hardware...and not have the price rise, the battery life get worse, and the physical size get bigger? And then there's the software...<br /><br />"...In a move that could alienate some of Palm's developers and users, arguably Palm's greatest asset, the new OS will not offer native support for applications developed for 16-bit versions. Instead, the older architecture will now be emulated in the new OS, and stories circulating the wires suggest that only around 80% of current applications will survive the transition. Palm, however, estimates that it has "a couple hundred thousand registered developers" in the OS 5 program."<br /><br />Source: Todd Ogasawara

[PJE]

If Palm OS5 devices have the same facilities as PocketPCs then they will become very similar...

...this is NOT what Palm want, otherwise there is no reason to buy a Palm over a Windows CE device.

What Palm must not do is hobble the hardware to place it in a different market. Palm OS5 must be able to handle larger screens than 160x160 with proper landscape or protrait QVGA screens (preferably switchable - something I miss on my iPAQ).

Here's a thought.... why not sell Palm OS5 as an upgrade for the iPAQ/PocketPC2002 as a ROM replacement or a program that can run as a WindowsCE task... and then see what hardware wins out :)

I for one would love to run BOTH operating systems on my iPAQ. It also gives palm an instant hardware base for their OS, thus stimulating software development. If OS5 can compete with WindowsCE on a WindowsCE machine, then they'll have a much better claim for their own hardware...

My 2c.

[James]

it's all a matter of timing...10-15 years ago, Apple clones would have saved Apple. Now...they've no hope of ever being anything other than a tiny piece of the pie, though if they keep making desktop lamps they won't even be that

[Timothy Rapson]

So, a Palm model that shares virtually all hardware features with the PPC 2002 model, but sells at 5 times the volume per model meaning the efficiency of production scale makes it possible to sell it for $100 less.

One can bring all the software one has along to the new model, saving millions of current users $100 to $400 each.

Because it uses the latest OMAPI and X-Scale processors with no old inventory of old battery sucking ARMS to protect, battery life is 5-10s as good as the PPC 2002s.

PPC 2002 gets "recreated" again as .NET mobile with a rewrite needed of all current software and no way to make it work on older models without Flash ROM cutting market potential for developers.

One can bring old hardware along from my old Palm with Universal connector.

Yeah, sounds like Palm can't win this battle.


Look this is not Apple converting from Motorola 6800 to Power PC processor with a 10% market share going against WinTel with 90% market share. This is Palm going for a newer better processor with help from TI, Motorola, Intel, and Sony. And PPC still at the very best has 25% of the market.

I really don't get the point of a PPC site pointing to this article. It's not a religion.

[JohnnyFlash]

I really don't get the point of a PPC site pointing to this article. It's not a religion.


Agree. Please concentrate on PocketPC software and stuff! Making fun of other PDAs can only make demage. Schadenfreude is not good for PocketPCthoughts...

[Paragon]

I think Palm is making the age old mistake of thinking the best way to beat your competition is to do what he is doing and try to do it better. That is not always the way. Just because us power users want a high resolution, mutimedia, slim version of our desktop in our pocket, doesn't mean that is what everyone wants. Most don't. They don't want to spend that much, or carry that big of a brick in their pocket

I think things will "click" for Palm when they find the right combo of price, organizer, communicator, size, and marketing.

Right now if you want something to handle your PIM's what could be better then an M100 for less than $100.00. I stand to be corrected on this buy I think there are more of them out there then there are Ipaq's.

I still love my HP565 :D

Dave

[Ed Hansberry]

PPC 2002 gets "recreated" again as .NET mobile with a rewrite needed of all current software and no way to make it work on older models without Flash ROM cutting market potential for developers.

One can bring old hardware along from my old Palm with Universal connector.

Yeah, sounds like Palm can't win this battle.
Where is your source that all current PPC 2000 (StrongARM builds) and PPC 2002 software cannot be used on the as yet unverified Pocket PC based on .NET?

Palm OTOH readily admits that 20% of their apps will not work on OS5, and we already know that 0.0% of current devices will get the upgrade.

By the way - don't get too hung up on your "Universal Connector." Palm only did that to pacify Kodak on their Camera sled, and only promised to keep it around for 2 years. Come 2003, we may see another connector. BTW, Palm isn't sharing the connector. They have denied Handera the rights to use it forcing them to stick with P-III connections. And Sony has already switched their connection in the less than 1 year the Clie's have really been out. Then there is Handspring, essentially discontinuing the Visor and Springboard concept. :roll:

[Ferdinand_Lovetree]

I think that judging by the response to this, and other sites, Jason has an opportunity to really expand this site.

With the facility that now exists to have other forums and groups of forums, why not change the whole site to PocketTechnology.com (or something like that).

a) It provides news on more than the PocketPC.
b) This site is visited by people who don't have a PocketPC but do have an interest in the field of wireless technology.

This could be the opportunity of a lifetime because as long as people like Andy keep posting provocative and polarising thoughts, there will be arguing between zealots from all technology camps, and a decision will have to be made; Ban talk that is non/anti PocketPC or diversify and keep the arguing to certain forums set aside for such discussions.

Would Microsoft mind if that PocketPCThoughts diversified?

Just a few thoughts.

[Jason Dunn]

Agree. Please concentrate on PocketPC software and stuff! Making fun of other PDAs can only make demage. Schadenfreude is not good for PocketPCthoughts...


We've always posted about other PDA's, and we always will. It's important to see what other companies are up to...and I think you can learn something from EVERY other PDA out there.

[nirav28]

:o

I've been a long time, pocketpc/wince user. However, since the release of the new palm wireless device, i'm a bit jealous. Has microsoft and ppc hardware vendors dropped the ball here?

I was at CompUSA the other day and got a chance to hold the new palm 501 wireless device in my hand. And I was amazed by how light it was. The form factor was just incredible! Ok some might argue that PPC has wireless options also. What wireless options??? Omnisky, $59 a month that I';m paying right now for ****ty service???. GPRS, not where I live. And who wants to connect via their mobile phone to make a gprs connection to their ppc and have to pay hefty charges??

Ok, the palm lacks some of the gee-wiz features that PPC has, such as MP3 playback, video etc and better displays.

But when will the PPC software and hardware vendors get their act together?? I do a lot of day trading. My online brokerage firm has wireless applications for me to do trading.
What do I do? I'm seriously thinking of jumping ship here...and go buy myself a wireless palm. Thinking about just selling off my Ipaq 3870 now...

I just needed to vent a little...

[Jason Dunn]

With the facility that now exists to have other forums and groups of forums, why not change the whole site to PocketTechnology.com (or something like that).


But the problem with that suggestion is that I'm still very pro-Pocket PC. I don't think I could fool anyone into thinking otherwise. :roll:


Would Microsoft mind if that PocketPCThoughts diversified?


Microsoft has no influence in what goes on with this site.

[Timothy Rapson]

Dear EdH,

Any source I had on the upgradeability of PPC 2002 to .NET would be as worthless as the source I had on the PPC 2002 upgrade for my Ipaq eg. Compaq and Microsoft. I can't get PPC 2002 features. Can't get the spell checker in Word and other features that are in PPC 2002. And I never will have a word processor with the power of WordSmith. I will get whatever Compaq and MS think they can ding me for. If MS did everything they could right and Palm went out of business this year PPC 2002 still would not offer the software to match just the 80% that will be able to run on the Palm OS 5 as is. And most of the other 20% will be out in new versions as their are just going to be too many users to pass up. If half of the Palm users take the upgrade path rather than the switch to PPC path for OS 5 the developers will still see a ton more sales on the Palm side.

Palm does have some problems and has made some mistakes in their business. The gist of this article is that they are done for because PPC has taken them out. That is just plain silly. PPC has made just as many mistakes. Try to run about any new software on your PPC 2000 models. What won't run without an ARM? Tough break. Guess you should just dump another $500-1000 on all new hardware, software and peripherals. Even with Palm OS5 you are not going to face near that work and expense.

[tthiel]

.Net is an entire architecture that includes operating systems, development tools, network protocols etc. It is not an operating system that you could put on a PDA or anything else for that matter. As for Palm I have had just about every Palm and Pocket PC and I am now using the new Sony T615c. It has the best screen and battery life of ANY PDA and is a joy to use.


So, a Palm model that shares virtually all hardware features with the PPC 2002 model, but sells at 5 times the volume per model meaning the efficiency of production scale makes it possible to sell it for $100 less.

One can bring all the software one has along to the new model, saving millions of current users $100 to $400 each.

Because it uses the latest OMAPI and X-Scale processors with no old inventory of old battery sucking ARMS to protect, battery life is 5-10s as good as the PPC 2002s.

PPC 2002 gets "recreated" again as .NET mobile with a rewrite needed of all current software and no way to make it work on older models without Flash ROM cutting market potential for developers.

One can bring old hardware along from my old Palm with Universal connector.

Yeah, sounds like Palm can't win this battle.


Look this is not Apple converting from Motorola 6800 to Power PC processor with a 10% market share going against WinTel with 90% market share. This is Palm going for a newer better processor with help from TI, Motorola, Intel, and Sony. And PPC still at the very best has 25% of the market.

I really don't get the point of a PPC site pointing to this article. It's not a religion.

[James]

But the problem with that suggestion is that I'm still very pro-Pocket PC. I don't think I could fool anyone into thinking otherwise. :roll:


It's not just you Jason, but I imagine most of the readers here are too...I know I certainly fool anyone about my feelings for the deposed kings and pretenders to the PDA throne. :D

[kettle]

I'm a Sony CLIE user, but I love this sight! Please don't change a thing. I enjoy hearing a different oppinion from you guys. I even find it funny when you guys get the anti-Palm rhetoric going.

kettle

[mememe]

"And then there's the software..." says it all Jaylo :-)
That's why I still use the palm (well... and the formfactor kicks PPC butt)....
:twisted:
see:

Additionally, there still isn't software like/or as good as bonsai
(www.natara.com) or shadow (www.codejedi.com) or a word processor as good as
wordsmith (www.bluenomad.com) or actionnames (www.iambic.com). Being able to
play MP3's and MPG's is cool, but it doesn't help me in my everyday life.

[IpaqMan2]

As much as I would like to see Palm embarres them selves... The truth is, the saying "Can your Palm do that?" may become a thing of the past.


I say this because microsoft has had almost 3 years to improve upon their OS and has done little to do so and as unfortunit as it is...I don't really consider PPC2002 a HUGE upgrade from PPC2000. The PPC hardware for the most part is still based on Compaq's Ipaq. While MS is releaseing WinCE 4.0 or the .net Palm has been pushing full speed to make their newer OS on the same playing ground as current PPCs with it's ability to do multi-threading and run faster processors. When MS finally gets around to releasing the latter CE OS to the PPC platform some maybe years time still away, where will the Palm be? At Palm's current speed in pushing the OS and OEMs like Sony pushing the limit and boundries of PDA technology I wonder if PPCs will be anything still worth considering.

I hope that isn't the case...But Palm has been splashing the water alot and getting a lot of attention. They also are now making good on their vaporware OS 5, which even though still very unimpresseive, will have all the heart the current PPCs' will have and will only be a matter of maybe just short time before they will do something that will leave the PPC crowd in envy.

I just wish MS would of used this time to Push their OS into new grounds with wireless, an Always on email on device, Cell/PDA phones, Better syncronizing with the PIMs to Outlook, email, MS word and so on. They should of been pushing the Oo's and Ahh's to their OS and other harware vendors partners...But they haven't They just slap another Gui on to the same CE OS and gave the world the same hardware that has already been introduced to us with the original Ipaq.

Anyone else think soemthing is wrong with that picture?
I love PPCs and would never, ever consider switching back to the Palm OS. But if MS doesn't start pushing and splashing the water as hard and as desperatly as Palm has, than I suspect what little market share PPCs already has, may shrink to even less as time moves on.

[Foo Fighter]

Additionally, there still isn't software like...actionnames (www.iambic.com).

Actually the president of Iambic is asking for user feedback on a PocketPC version of Action Names right now. Here is a link:

http://www.iambic.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=2975#post2975

So while AN may not be available now, it does look like a PPC version will soon be in the works. If you are a PocketPC user, and miss Action Names, send Vidal an e-mail.

:D

[Ferdinand_Lovetree]

Jason,

I wouldn't suggest that you need a lobotomy to remove your love for PocketPC. The different personalities of the people you have helping you run this site suggest to me that if you did diversify, you could palm off sections of the web site to one of your co-workers (no pun intended). For example, someone commented on how many of their thoughts, so far, have been non-PocketPC related. Why not have a section for these since there are many PocketPC users who just don't want to know about other technologies. Also, there's the issue about the polarising arguments that take place from the main page.

Of course, having never managed a site like this before, I wouldn't know how much work it would involve. Either way, I know that I'll still visit here, if not only to learn about the cool stuff that's happening in the world of Mobile Technology.

[Ivan]

I have a Compaq Aero 1550 PocketPC... it has a monochrome screen and only 16 MB of RAM... why haven't I upgraded?... because this baby is light and thin and does everything I need it to do, plus can play MP3's, has a voice recorder and many other features.

If Palm adds all this functionality in its next version of the PalmOS, and manages to fit that in a m50X form factor with comparable battery life and a high res. color screen, I would not think twice about switching to Palm.

Then again, I don't know if this is possible with current (available) technology.

[Jason Dunn]

run this site suggest to me that if you did diversify, you could palm off sections of the web site to one of your co-workers (no pun

That's what Brighthand does, and I don't think it would work here.

The question I put to you is this: why should I run a web site for Palm enthusiasts? They have their own sites, their own community, etc.

Why would I want to do such a thing? :?

[Jason Dunn]

I say this because microsoft has had almost 3 years to improve upon their OS and has done little to do so and as unfortunit as it is...


I agree with much of what you said, but you're not accurite with this statement. The Pocket PC shipped in April 2000, and the 2002 devices launched in October 2001.

The Pocket PC is 18 months old, so I consider it quite "young" still.

[Kre]

I think things will "click" for Palm when they find the right combo of price, organizer, communicator, size, and marketing.


The question is, what is this combo? I would imagine it would click with any company if they offered a perfect balance with these things.

But IMO, theyll need more than just OS5 to achieve this, at least in terms of the hardware itself. My understanding is that OS5`s GUI is no different than what it is now. All the changes are just under the hood, so to speak. Awfully boring if you ask me. Under the hood changes alone would be fine any other time, but Palm is overdue for some sort of a GUI update.

[skywarner]

:roll:

I wonder just how Palm decides to count their "hundreds of thousands" of developers for version 5 of their OS.

Just for kicks, I registered my cat (yes, my cat!!) as a Palm developer last year. Funny thing is that she still is registered after all this time.

I can see the advertisements now.... 8)

[James]

:roll:

I wonder just how Palm decides to count their "hundreds of thousands" of developers for version 5 of their OS.

Just for kicks, I registered my cat (yes, my cat!!) as a Palm developer last year. Funny thing is that she still is registered after all this time.

I can see the advertisements now.... 8)


They're probably doing the same thing every other marketing group does - reporting downloads or registrations as users/developers/supporters. :roll:

[Ferdinand_Lovetree]

The question I put to you is this: why should I run a web site for Palm enthusiasts? They have their own sites, their own community, etc.

Why would I want to do such a thing? :?


The only reason I'm suggesting it is that there are a heck of a lot of people from other technologies (not only Palm users) who visit here regularly and I thought that since you have such a large audience, why not capitalise on it? Just a thought mind, not a judgement :oops: !

Your mention of another web site, that does just this, does have a point and maybe things are better as they are.

I was just mindful of the arguments that I and others get entangled in when there seems to be a mentality of "you either love Microsoft and want to sell your soul to them or you hate them and think that everything they do is pants". Often, discussions move in crazy ways as people are forced to fight their corner. There are those, among whom I number myself, who think that PPC is a good device. The problem is that this is not good enough for some others here who think that Microsoft saved humanity and anybody who doesn't support PPC is a wrecker.

Anyway, I'm going on again! The site is fine as it is, it was only a suggestion :)