Consumers Dissatisfied with Video Downloading [Archive]

Chris Gohlke

08-11-2007, 02:00 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/4149/consumers_give_low' target='_blank'>http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/4149/consumers_give_low</a><br /><br /></div><i>"A new survey from market research firm Parks Associates has found that few consumers in the U.S. are satisfied with the videos they download from the Internet. Just 16% say the selection of videos available online is good, and only 13% say video downloads are sold at a reasonable price. Most tellingly, fewer than one in five consumers downloading video say they plan to download videos again in the future. “People don’t see a reason to use video downloading services,” said John Barrett, director of research at Parks Associates. “Sure, it saves a trip to the video store, but it takes longer, looks worse, and you end up watching it on a 17” screen. No wonder consumers are dissatisfied with the experience.” He noted that niche markets will emerge, but mainstream consumers will remain lukewarm about the video download experience. Good news for DVD makers, perhaps, but certainly not the feedback that online distributors like Apple are hoping to hear."</i><br /><br /><img src="http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/images/cgg-survey-81007.jpg" /><br /><br />I agree. For most downloads it seems you are paying more for less. If I am going to pay full price, I might as well buy the physical media and get the full packaging and be able to do whatever I want with it. My ideal download service would involve the ability to download a non-DRM'd version of an ISO of the same DVD being sold in stores. Given the lack of a physical product, transportation costs, and no retail markup, I should be able to get this cheaper than in the store. Bonus points if they also make available high resolution, printable copies of the DVD jacket and a printable label for the DVD itself.

Jeff_R

08-11-2007, 10:35 PM

This doesn't surprise me at all. The video download industry is in its infancy, and it has a way to go before it equals the ease of putting a DVD into a player. Lack of standards, dangers of media corruption, complexity and DRM nightmares all equal a ways to go before this becomes mainstream. I can't see your perfect situation happening though, Chris, since it essentially represents "Buy a pirate DVD master". :D

Chris Gohlke

08-11-2007, 11:24 PM

But, it already happens, just the studio is not getting paid for it. There are even sites out there for specifically downloading the jacket covers for printing. I'd even offer a concession. They could use a program like iTunes with built in burning technology. The iso file could be encrypted/DRM'd to their hearts content, but the software would let me make a normal DVD like I can already walk into the store today and purchase anonymously with cash.

Jeff_R

08-12-2007, 04:06 PM

As far as the "already happens", I agree, but if it becomes that much easier, I'd expect casual piracy would increase. "Hey, Betty, I just downloaded Harry Potter, you want one?" :D

However, I like your idea about an encrypted file that could create a storebought DVD. I could see some compatibility issues, but it's an interesting concept for sure.

jeffd

08-12-2007, 05:13 PM

DRM ruins everything. Meanwhile those of us using shadier methods can simply look at a single page of whats been posted, start the download of selected movie (700-1400Mbytes depending on if its a 1cd or 2 cd rip, todays xvid builds can retain most of a dvd's quality in 700mbytes, x264 is even better) and I can immediately play the movie in a few players like VLC without waiting for it to finish. Its so easy its sad. If hollywood had a brain, it would do the same with a simple front end that charged a small fee for a 24 hour download window. Screw drm, screw copy protections. If its well priced and as easy as this, no ones going to care. "Lets see, do I spend 2 or 3 bucks now (99 cents for movies that are like 6 months old), or try and get bob to burn me a dvd of it and watch it when ever he gets around to giving it to me?)

Jeremy Charette

08-12-2007, 06:29 PM

It already exists: Xbox Live Video Marketplace. And it's phenomenally successful.

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 12:40 AM

It already exists: Xbox Live Video Marketplace. And it's phenomenally successful.

No sure how phenomenal, phenomenally is. ;-)
But yes, it exists and it works very well.

So far, I've done all my movie rentals this year off VM.
A friend of mine finally got around to trying it (the free Austin powers promo) and was shocked at the quality. He was used to PC and Cable On-demand D/L's and their "near-DVD" quality (which isn't) and was shocked that Live SD content is actually DVD+ quality and, to his eyes (and 720p TV) so close to HD quality he doesn't bother with the HD D/L's.
Me, I prefer the HD version and the extra $2 and 4Hr D/L times don't scare me, but I have to admit some of the SD content is really, really good.
And depending on your connection, you can start watching the SD stuff in ten minutes or less.

The latest development on that end is that some Live content is offering same-date releases on rental D/L's as on DVD sales.

Very early in the game but looking good, so far...

Chris Gohlke

08-13-2007, 01:59 AM

It already exists: Xbox Live Video Marketplace. And it's phenomenally successful.

I am looking forward to trying out Xbox Live's offerings. With the price drop, I broke down and ordered one off Amazon and it should be here tomorrow!

Jeremy Charette

08-13-2007, 02:02 AM

I'd call double digit percentage increases in downloads month over month pretty phenomenal.

Here's an idea for Microsoft: a new set top box. A direct competitor to Apple TV. Basically, an Xbox 360 minus the DVD drive and ability to play games.. HD Media Center Extender, video/audio player from internal/external/networked sources, and the ability to download video directly from Xbox Live Video Marketplace to the device.

Call it the "Windows Media TV". Change the name of the content service to "Windows Live Video Marketplace". Price it at $150. Blow Apple TV out of the water.

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 04:00 AM

Here's an idea for Microsoft: a new set top box. A direct competitor to Apple TV. Basically, an Xbox 360 minus the DVD drive and ability to play games.. HD Media Center Extender, video/audio player from internal/external/networked sources, and the ability to download video directly from Xbox Live Video Marketplace to the device.

Call it the "Windows Media TV". Change the name of the content service to "Windows Live Video Marketplace". Price it at $150. Blow Apple TV out of the water.

You do realize that by this time next year the Core 360 will be going for $200, no? And that's including everything you suggested they take out, plus a $30 gaming controller. ;-)

Why should MS bother to engineer an all-new product to compete with, all things, AppleTV? Have I missed something? Sling, I could see. TiVo, maybe. Even MovieBeam. But Apple TV? Don't. Think. So. That's a me-too product, a placeholder. When the real Apple TV shows up, if ever, then we can talk.

Besides, don't forget, MS *already* has a $99 STB; its called MSN TV2. What you really want is MSN TV3. And that may or not happen, depending on what happens with the Core360 and the various IPTV STBs MS has cooked up. To say nothing of the licensing of the MCX protocols to CE companies. That can lead to some seriously fun stuff.
I expect to see interesting things come next month's CEDIA.

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 04:07 AM

I am looking forward to trying out Xbox Live's offerings. With the price drop, I broke down and ordered one off Amazon and it should be here tomorrow!

Might one ask which SKU? Inquiring minds and all that...
I assume you know the basic drill for new 360 owners, right?
Beware of UNO! ;-)

Jeremy Charette

08-13-2007, 04:34 AM

Chris Gohlke

08-13-2007, 01:30 PM

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 02:55 PM

Might one ask which SKU? Inquiring minds and all that...

I ordered the "Premium". Amazon had it for $329 and after a bunch of GC and promotional discounts I had, paid a little under $200. It is not specifically the HDMI model, but there was a delay in shipping my order, so they might have run out of the older model and I might end up with the newer one. I borrowed a bunch of games and bought Dead Rising as that has been a game I have wanted to play for a while. Plan to pick up Elder Scrolls too.

I assume you know the basic drill for new 360 owners, right? Beware of UNO! ;-)

I guess I don't know.

That was one sweet deal.
(All gone now.)
And HDMI is not the end-all, be-all of video quality some make it out to be; not for consoles. A lot will depend on your display but look into VGA as a video option; no overscan, and it supports native resolution on a lot more displays than component *or* HDMI.

As for the startup drill, its hardly a secret by now: once you get online and fully updated you'll have an option to Download all the XBLA demos in one fell swoop (76 games right there). Worth doing.
Then you can go browse LIVE and take your pick of the commercial demos and game videos; it shouldn't he hard to figure out which games suit you without dropping money on 'em. The big new for today is the BIOSHOCK demo went up last night and brought Live down to its ankles. ;-)

As for Oblivion, yes it is really really good. So is Morrowind which was added to the Backwards Compatibility list last month (both basic and GOTY edition) and, like most BC games, it looks better than on the old BOX (upscaled and anti-aliasing added). I've had less hang-ups and slow-downs on 360 than on the original. :-)
And, if you hadn't heard: Oblivion GOTY edition is due in the next couple of weeks and it comes with the core game and *all* the Downloadable content they've released over the last year or so, for two-thirds of the original price. Probably want to wait, no?
If Western RPGs are to your taste, Two World releases next week (demo available around that time); if you favor the JRPG style (I don't) there are demos for Eternal Sonata and Blue Dragon. Saved me money right there.

Hope the delivery gets in quick for you: have fun!
May it be as quiet and fun to own as mine has been.

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 03:08 PM

I don't think the Core is the way to compete, because Microsoft isn't marketing the 360 as anything other than a video game console. It's going to be hard to change the public's perception that the Xbox 360 "just" plays games. That's why I think a dedicated Apple TV "like" box is the way to get into the living room.

You're not the only one who thinks MS should promote the media features of 360 more. I have a friend who rants about it every other week. ;-)

My own expectation is that they will, once:
a- they get Core down to $199
b- IPTV 360s are deployed
c- Video Marketplace is fully mature (and they add streamed content as an option--the HW and software can do it now, they just aren't using the feature much)

Except for the core price, everything else is doable by XMAS...

The thing to keep in mind is that except for video scaling, pretty much everything media related on 360 is done in software so there isn't much in the way of price reduction to be gained from stripping out features from Core and that competitive products built off dedicated hardware price out at about the same as the core. Which means they might as well just aim the core at that market if it ever materializes.

All they'd need is a PR campaign.
Of course, they could always aim high and release the mythical Homestation... :-)

Chris Gohlke

08-13-2007, 03:15 PM

Thanks for all the great tips. My TV does not have HDMI anyway, so I was not really concerned if it had it anyway. I spent some quality time this weekend running conduits so I could get network cable run to my TV since the wireless adapter seems to be a rip. Unfortunately, the run of cable I ordered wont be in until the end of the week, so it will be off-line until then, but I'll get it cranking after that. Great tip on Elder Scrolls, the new price will be cheaper than the price of the used copies I saw. Until then, I'll entertain myself killing zombies.

Jeremy Charette

08-13-2007, 04:18 PM

Chris: Don't buy Oblivion! You'll cease to have a life. I rented it when it came out, and proceeded to forget there was a world outside my apartment. Must have put 40 hours in during the first 5 days alone. I finally quit at around 80 hours, and returned it to GameFly, banished from the Charette household forever.

Okay, go ahead and get it. But don't say I didn't warn you!

Like Felix said, get online, and enjoy all the downloadable goodness that is Xbox Live Marketplace. The demos and Arcade games alone could keep you occupied for a month.

Felix: I don't think "Xbox 360 as IPTV STB" will get off the ground. It's a conflict of interests. MS wants to rent movies and tv shows over XBLVM, while the cableco's want to use it to distribute tv and movies on demand. The cableco's will never go for it.

jeffd

08-13-2007, 05:01 PM

He was used to PC and Cable On-demand D/L's and their "near-DVD" quality (which isn't) and was shocked that Live SD content is actually DVD+ quality and, to his eyes (and 720p TV) so close to HD quality he doesn't bother with the HD D/L's.

To be fair, one pc dvd rip can be loads different then the next. some groups know how to do it, some groups(if it isn't actually just a lone person rip job) don't. When I download these rips, I am not looking for something I can burn or convert to a dvd. The video quality afforded at the file size given is just right. For the most part, they ARE better then dvd because dvd looks like crap on computer lcd screens for reasons that still mystify me. Something with the dvd players, dunno. Coure if I am lucky, i can find someone who ripped to x264. Its like a 1:1 copy, but still the file size of current XVID rips. Saddly they are rare.

Also anyone who dosn't bother with HD content is someone who has never experienced it. My first HD experience was the anime Ergo Proxy (http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=3302). I had gotten my new laptop so I decided to see what all the hoopla about. Now I make an attempt to download any new anime in HD first, even if its not by a well known fansub group (and thus, questionable translation job), cause going back to SD is that bad.

Jeff_R

08-13-2007, 05:18 PM

I think Google's exit points out a big problem with downloadable DRM video.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/10/AR2007081001925.html

Personally, I wouldn't pay for anything downloadable unless that problem wasn't present. The idea that someone else's business model changing can invalidate your entire paid-for collection is inexcusable.

Those who are evangelizing Xbox's video marketplace, if Microsoft decided to shut down the service entirely, as Google has, does that mean you could still play your content or does it have to synchronize with a server first?

Jeremy Charette

08-13-2007, 07:08 PM

Jeff_R

08-13-2007, 08:07 PM

Ah, fair enough. That let's me out; I'm a purchase hound!

Chris Gohlke

08-13-2007, 08:24 PM

Son of a @#$%, I see that it was delivered, take the rest of the day off and rush home to play. Power it up, 1/4 red ring, "System Error, Contact Customer Support", find out it is some sort of hardware failures. On the phone now with Amazon to get an exchange. The manufacture date is 6/2006!

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 08:49 PM

To be fair, one pc dvd rip can be loads different then the next. some groups know how to do it, some groups(if it isn't actually just a lone person rip job) don't.

Uh, sorry I wasn't clear; I wasn't talking that kind of...stuff...
I was talking legal, commercial downloads. My friend is trying to instill a sense of ethics in his kids. He got a Napster-to-go subscription when he found his teenager installing P2P software on the home PC. (After grounding him for a month.) Now the kid gets all his foul-mouthed gangsta rap legally. ;-)
On the video side he tried Cinema Now, Movielink, and the OnDemand stuff from cable. He even took a peek at iTunes but that didn't go far.
Most PC stuff is (charitably) VHS quality; good enough for a 5-7 inch screen, maybe a 12-14 in screen for the best.
But blown up on an HDTV? No way!
Too much "redundant" data has been squeezed out of the streams.
That's what makes the 360 SD files so surprising; they interact with the 360 hardware to upscale beautifully to 47" 1080p...
It may not be HD but its definitely on the north side of DVD quality.

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 08:50 PM

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 08:54 PM

Discontinuation of service is a non issue with XBLVM. All of their downloads are rentals. They expire 14 days after download, or 24 hours after you hit "play", whichever comes first. Frankly, I prefer it that way. If I want to watch something more than once or twice, I'll buy it on physical media, as I've done with The West Wing DVD Box Sets.

Same here.

The TV shows are purchases with infinite re-download rights so you don't have to keep the files on local storage. Except for the occasional episode to sample a show before buying the DVD set, I steer clear from those.

Well, except the anime.
Some anime on DVD prices make XBLM look downright cheap...

(Ed: by Jeremy...I couldn't understand what the heck Felix was saying. :lol: )

Chris Gohlke

08-13-2007, 09:02 PM

It is the hard drive. At least I can play with it a little without the drive until the replacement arrives.

Felix Torres

08-13-2007, 09:22 PM

It is the hard drive. At least I can play with it a little without the drive until the replacement arrives.

Good. (Relatively speaking.)
I thought that quarter ring thing seemed familiar.
(I got it once while messing around with XSATA. I didn't seat the drive in properly and the console thought the drive had gone bad.)
Sorry to hear reseating didn't help...

Chris Gohlke

08-13-2007, 09:50 PM

Jeremy Charette

08-13-2007, 10:06 PM

Overscan isn't adjustable on the Xbox. I strongly recommend picking up Avia's Guide to Home Theater on DVD, and calibrating your TV using it. You should see 5% overscan or less.

Overscan is usually only adjustable from the service menus. You'll need to do a Google search to figure out how to access them and make the adjustments.

Or get an LCD and use the VGA connection...but that's another story.

Jeremy Charette

08-13-2007, 10:09 PM

Oh, and when you finally do get up and running, download the free HD episode of South Park, "Good Times with Weapons". It's AMAZING.

(Actually, it's a crappy episode of South Park, but it looks incredible.)

(Wait, do you have an HDTV?)

Felix Torres

08-14-2007, 01:30 AM

On the bright side, hopefully I'll get a unit manufactured a bit more recently. This one must have been pretty far back on the shelf considering it was made 14 months ago.

Graphics are sweet on this thing. Is there a setting to mess with overscan, could not find anything on my TV.

As pointed out, overscan is a defect of some HD displays that persist in applying 20th century features to contemporay displays that don't need them. Of those displays that have overscan controls, some hide them in the service menus, some in user-accessible but "advanced" menus, and some (newer ones) put it upfront and even on the remote.
Of course, not all companies call it overscan; some call it dot-by-dot display mode, others call it zero overscan, others use other terms.
Also, some Samsung DLPs that have overscan controls (circa 2005, I think) don't retain the overscan setting when you turn the set "off"; they revert to the overscanned mode.

Easiest way to get past overscan is with VGA as long as you can get the 360 and the display working at your set's native resolution.

For video applications overscan isn't a mortal sin (5% is bearable) but for computer usage and gaming any amount of overscan is going to pretty much kill antialiasing.

Its fairly easy to find out quickly, online, if your display works well with the 360. There's a couple threads at the AVSFORUM XBOX area devote to VGA compatibility and overscan issues.

G'luck and hopefully you'll get an '07 360.
Or at least a golden BB. ;-)

Magellan

08-15-2007, 10:00 PM

Jeremy Charette

08-16-2007, 12:53 AM

The best download service for a PC is...Xbox Live Video Marketplace. :? Seriously, the quality of most downloadable movie services is crap. Sub DVD video and audio. The XBLVM content is actually BETTER than DVD in most cases. It's worth owning a 360 for that reason alone.

Felix Torres

08-16-2007, 12:59 AM

So what is currently the best download service for a PC? I haven't tried Amazon Unboxed yet, but have tried Movielink which isn't too bad. I am not concerned with HD, since I do not have an HDTV. I have a PC with TV out connected to our family room TV, so I would like decent quality.

The answer is probably: none.
For outright purchases, probably Amazon, since they offer both DVD and VHS-sized files in the download so you don't have to transcode for portable use. But their software has gotten some pans...
For streaming, Netflix has gotten good reviews on quality but the catalog was pretty sparse the last time I looked...
CinemaNow's burned DVD option has been getting dinged for producing non-standard DVDs that don't play everywhere...
Nobody has yet delivered a truly desirably product on PC.

Magellan

08-16-2007, 03:19 AM

Thanks guys. I forgot about Netflix, of which I am a subscriber. I just never checked out their online offerings yet.

xycury

08-16-2007, 05:10 AM

Been with Netflix and every dollar you spend per month is an hour you can grab off of the Watch Now movies...

not a whole lot there, and NOTHING new, I don't think, but it's ever growing, and you can maybe find a few on your queue you don't have to wait over.

Definately get some good speakers, audio is a bit eh.... but the video is not too bad and plays right away.

Wired > wireless, it'll drop down your quality.

I think for owning, i'll still stick with retail... Downloaded movies just isn't my thing... I am keen to music, but you can hold millions and not shed over a Hard drive... yet with movies, a ton of dedicated space.

I'm opting for the push to watch, vs if it's that great, I'd outright buy it at a good price later.

Chris Gohlke

08-17-2007, 03:22 AM

Well, got into the service menus and corrected for the overscan, but of course this totally messed up the convergence and geometry. Try as I might, I just could not get the corner set right, but then again, my eyes were going nuts, so I'll try to tweak it more in the future. I ended up adding back a portion of the overscan just to cover for the poorly tweaked corners. I will say, it was pretty bad. There was a whole blade on the 360 whose tab you could not even see.

Felix Torres

08-17-2007, 08:23 PM

There was a whole blade on the 360 whose tab you could not even see.

Not sure I follow; the default overscan ate away an entire blade? That would be something like 15% overscan! The 360 has margins a mile wide in 1080p. There's normally room for three more blades...
Sounds like you've got some serious calibration work ahead of you. Good luck.

Chris Gohlke

08-17-2007, 09:14 PM

I'll rephrase. If I stacked all the blades so their labels were all to the left side of the screen, I would not see any of the label part of the first blade to the left. I first noticed this was a problem when I did the review of the Wii. When I looked at the output I did to my DVR, I noticed that the corners of the entire menu were rounded off. I never see that on the screen. It looks like it could definitely be a long process to get it just right since the interface for adjustments is not very user friendly and very button push intensive. I'll probably just get it to an acceptable level since I am probably looking to get a 47ish inch LCD to replace this set in the next 6-8 months. Currently I have a 65" rear projection set that is really WAY to big for the room. On top of that, the set is monsterously large and has a huge footprint and the idea of a wall mounted set is appealing since it will make the room a lot larger.

Felix Torres

08-17-2007, 09:58 PM

Gotcha.
Yeah that's a lot of overscan; on mine there is normally about one blade tab's worth of space to the left of Marketplace and two to the Right of System, on the centerline. A bit less at the corners because of the curve of the blades.
Your intended timing sounds good too; the 120/24Hz panels should be reaching reasonable princing round then. Of course, LED backlighting and HDMI 1.3a deep color will the new "must-haves", but... ;-)
Just go have fun for while, but beware Capcom games (dead Rising and Lost planet) their HUDs are not overscan-forgiving.
Pretty much everything else is, though. :-)

Chris Gohlke

08-17-2007, 10:18 PM

Yeah, Dead Rising (one of the two main games I bought this for) is horrible about this. The initial game menus are on the left side of the screen and instead of START GAME, all I got was T GAME. My quick adjustments last night got it to TART Game but I'll tweak it this weekend to optimize for Dead Rising. Gotta go play now, my replacement 360 just got here from Amazon, so I can finally save a game (HD was defective on the first one).

Felix Torres

08-18-2007, 12:25 AM

All-right!
So what are you doing 'round here anyway? Go whack zombies! ;-)
And go take a look at the Bioshock demo.
Just wear a bib when you launch it...

Chris Gohlke

08-18-2007, 12:32 AM

Actually been playing the Katamari demo as that is my favorite game of all time. Plus I just hooked up my Zune to pump some tunes.

Had a heck of a time getting live set up. I turn on the system, pick an ID, go to set up live, it tells me the name is no good, pick another one. So I pick another and it is good. Then it asks if I have a live ID, which I do for my zune. Enter the info for it and I proceed to get a bunch of errors. Had to call tech support. Apparently the problem was that the 360 ID had to match the user name I selected when I set up the zune. First off, it kind of sucks that I am stuck with that name. Secondly, maybe the software should have asked me FIRST if I had a Live ID and then just imported the data rather than making me type it. I guess it would have if I had picked the recover gamertag info, but from my perspective I had no gamertag to recover.