Toshiba vs. Samsung: Any Opinions?

[Jason Dunn]

OK Digital Media Thoughts readers, time to weigh in: my Samsung 61" DLP TV underwent a second round of defects, and under the five year extended warranty the store I bought it from (Visions) has the option of fixing or replacing it. Because of the cost of repairing the TV again is so high, the store has suggested that I replace my TV with the current version of my TV, the Samsung HLS6186WX (http://www.samsung.com/ca/products/tv/dlptv/hls6186wxxac.asp). It turns out that in either scenario (repair or replace) I lose my extended warranty, so I figured I might as well get the newer version of my TV.

But...for $600 more, the store will let me upgrade to the HLS6187WX (http://www.samsung.com/ca/products/tv/dlptv/hls6187wxxac.asp), a 1080p version of the same 61" TV. Getting the 1080p bump for $600 is a great opportunity, so at the very least I'll do that. Another option that I'm seriously considering is that for $932 CAD I can upgrade to the Toshiba 72MX196 (http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=2&group=6&product=6371&category=), a 72" DLP TV, also with 1080p. I took some room measurements, and we're 10 feet away from the TV. A 72" TV is pushing it in terms of size, but I think it will still work out fine.

The bigger question is whether or not the Toshiba is a good TV - the 62" version was rated by Consumer Reports as the top DLP TV, beating out Samsung and Sony TVs, so I imagine the 72" is in the same league. I looked at it in a store tonight, and it looked quite good - though it wasn't quite as nice as the $6500 Sony Bravia sitting next to it (the Toshiba sells for $2500). I'm leaning toward the 72" Toshiba because for under $1000 I get an 11" size bump and leap to 1080p.

Weigh in with your opinion!

[aroma]

I really don't think it's going to matter. From the way your post reads, you've already made up you mind. Don't deny it, you know you have!

[Felix Torres]

Methinks you're more interested in rationalizing what your gut tells you, but here goes.

1- At 10 feeet you're just about right for the Lucasfilms THX viewing distance spec for 1080p. So 72" is *not* pushing it.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137/maxing-out-resolution.html

2- Which, if any, of the sets offer 1-to-1 pixel mapping mode? (AKA: dot-by-dot, zero-overscan, etc). This is not a common feature but a higly desirale one for MCE PCs and 360 applications. And probably HD-DVD or BD-viewing, if either prevails...

3- Does your dealer carry the JVC triple-LCoS (aka, D-ILA) sets at a reasonable price? Round my neck of the woods they are price-comparable to the 1080 DLPs and they are very good, image-wise.

4- Take a swing by the rear projection forums at AVSFORUM.COM and check out the threads for the individual models to see what current owners ave experienced. If nothing else, you'll know what failure modes to be on the lookout for.

Good luck!

[Jason Dunn]

Methinks you're more interested in rationalizing what your gut tells you, but here goes.

Yes, partially - I'm 90% sure I want to go for the 72" Toshiba. But I'm not closing myself off to the 61" Samsung either and am definitely looking for opinions. Obviously the Toshiba is a great deal, which makes me a bit suspicious. ;-)

2- Which, if any, of the sets offer 1-to-1 pixel mapping mode? (AKA: dot-by-dot, zero-overscan, etc).

Can YOU tell ME? I honestly have no clue - I don't see that on the spec list of the Toshiba, but it might go under a different name.

Does your dealer carry the JVC triple-LCoS (aka, D-ILA) sets at a reasonable price? Round my neck of the woods they are price-comparable to the 1080 DLPs and they are very good, image-wise.

Unknown, but I'll look into it...thanks!

[OKCrew]

I'm with Felix... check out the JVC 1080Ps. I have the 61" 720P earlier generation and it has been great. If I could upgrade for a few hundred to the 72" 1080P, I would jump on it.

Of course, I would check out the rear projection forum at AVS to check out the user experiences for all the models I was considering.

Another option that I probably would consider now is using the replacement allowance to replace with 2 display sources. I would consider a 42" 1080P LCD for everyday tv and PC supplemented with one of the $1k range HD DLP projectors for movie and HD event viewing. It would be cool to have a screen to pull down in front of the LCD and your seating and surround speakers could work for both.

[Jason Dunn]

Take a swing by the rear projection forums at AVSFORUM.COM...

Just as an aside, what a God-awful set of forums from a design/usability standpoint. Doubtless a treasure-trove of information, but what kind of site owner would ONLY put the search box on the home page and not inside the actual forum pages? 8O And it looks like searching is only for registered users, so I have to register just to search - because there's no per-brand forums (which I find bizarre).

[Felix Torres]

Take a swing by the rear projection forums at AVSFORUM.COM...

Just as an aside, what a God-awful set of forums from a design/usability standpoint. Doubtless a treasure-trove of information, but what kind of site owner would ONLY put the search box on the home page and not inside the actual forum pages? 8O And it looks like searching is only for registered users, so I have to register just to search - because there's no per-brand forums (which I find bizarre).

Used to be worse; they recently split the flat-panel forum in three; LCD, Plasma, and general tech.

Before that, messages were scrolling off the first page faster than people could post them. :-)
Plus the plasma guys would chip in on LCD threads bad-mouthing LCDs, and vice-versa. Signal to noise has seriously improved in that area now.

Try googling for the specfic model and adding "avsforum.com".
That might get you to a suitable thread heading.

Main problem is the advanced search does do boolean very well.

Its a treasure trove of usefu data indeed but some model-specific threads get 6000 messages long.
Those are very active communities; in a week of reading you can learn a lot. Of course, like all such venues, the product info skews unduly negative because happy folks are less driven to post.

[Jason Dunn]

Ok, I'm a little worried about what I'm reading in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=700612&page=2):

"The Toshiba models are far superior to the Mits 73" sets (IMO), and are priced in line with the Samsung. But the new models don't support 1080p input (Toshiba didn't feel it was necessary since they omitted 1080p output from their first generation HD-DVD players). A few months ago, when Toshiba was still claiming their HD-DVD players will have 1080p output (since all HD-DVD titles are currently encoded in 1080p24), most assumed their new TVs would have a matching input and I was planning to buy the 72" Toshiba. Alas, that did not happen.... Actually, like the Mitsubishi, the updated xx197 model Toshibas have not started shipping yet either. Honestly, I was going to buy the 73827 Mits, but when I learned that they (and all the other same-generation 1080p displays) didn't accept 1080p input, I decided to wait."

Obviously, real 1080p support is important to me.

Also, this thread talks about (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=597364&highlight=Toshiba+72MX196) how the VGA input is limited to 1024 x 768...which surprises me a bit, I was expecting something higher.

[Jason Dunn]

Hmm. Reading a long thread right now, it looks like the Toshiba won't do 1080p over HDMI - or, rather, it accepts 1080i input then upconverts to 1080p. Apparently it does this quite well.

Thinking about 1080p source material...it's probably going to come from the Xbox 360 down the road. My HD-DVD Xbox drive - that's outputting, what, 1080i at the max, right? It's connected via component right now...

Regarding the VGA issue, I was going to go out and get the Xbox 360 VGA cable, but it seems like the Toshiba TV might not be a good fit for the VGA cable if it can't do the 1920 resolution over VGA. I wonder what would happen?

Oh boy, I'm really in over my head right now. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

Well, after reading through this 12-page thread at AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=724594&page=12&pp=30&highlight=72MX196), I believe I understand the whole 1080i/1080p issue and it sounds like it's not a big deal in real life. Calling the store now, getting this sucker ordered! 8)

[jdepew]

Jason,

I have just last month installed the Samsung HLS6187W (1080p) in my parents home to replace their comparatively dinky 32" Aquos LCD. For the cost, I would have to agree with the overwhelming feeling that the HLSxx87/88 series is the best bang for the buck in the world of rear projection HDTVs.

But, first things first, comparing TVs in a store is next to impossible. Typically they will be set to the highest contrast and brightness possible and the display setting will never be anything close to where you'll be viewing at home. That said, its also not reasonable to be able to do the most fair comparison which would require both sets to be ISF tuned and viewed in their expected final location. So, we have to go off the experience of others and decide whats important features to have and what you can live without.

That said, in response to Felix's question about turning off overscan - the Samsung 87W-series can temporarilty turn off overscan but its 88-series counterpart can turn off overscan permanently (it will persist past an ON-OFF cycle), but this was not a huge contributing factor in our decision anyway and is the largest difference between the two (the 87 you can get in big-box stores, the 88 from more specialized hometheater retailers or installers). The Samsung is absolutely gorgeous and even when very basically tuned, is an absolute sight to behold.

Wrt to going with the 72", people frequently think "this TV might be too big for the room", but when you get it home and installed that becomes "wow, i'm glad I didn't get the smaller one" - (in fact, those famous words were uttered by my father in choosing between the 50, 56, and 61") so you probably can't go wrong with the larger set either assuming it has a quality display and the features you want. BTW, I have not seen the Toshiba in person, so cannot comment on that set. Of course, with CES just closed, you may want to consider what the upcoming models are and how they will differ from current line up, though I do not think Sammy is replacing the 87/88 with anything right now. CORRECTION: Info on the 2007 model line-up was compiled here - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9340127&&#post9340127

There's a get thread dedicated to the HLSxx87W/88W series over at AVSforum where i've learned all the tweaks and learned from others' experience. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=665890

Similarly there's one for the Toshiba xxMX196 series http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=724594

In fact, there's a thread thats dedicated to your exact question -http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=741923

And I'll throw in one more comment about the Samsung - If you use a Cable STB like the Motorola DVRs, you can still set the standard def output to 480i over HDMI and the HD output at 1080i and STILL be able to use the zoom/expand function on the TV. (Personally one of my biggest pet-peeves about my own 4 year old HD RPTV) This allows you to be able to fill to fit the wide-screen if thats your thing (ick!) OR, my preference, keep 4:3 at 4:3 and then when a channel broadcasts content in "widescreen" but still in a 4:3 format you can avoid the whole 'picture in a black bar frame' thing and zoom right into actual content, restoring a full screen image without aspect distortion, plus the TVs scaler is much better than the DVRs.

Either way, enjoy the new TV! Consider the HD-DVD drive for the 360 if you have one, the picture clarity blows away even HDnet content and really shows off your new 1080p set!

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[jdepew]

Here's a picture of the Sammy in its new home - We custom fit some IKEA bookshelves to become the built-in unit you see here. Please ignore the fact that everything is empty, they're still moving in :wink:

And yes, thats the 61" - see what I mean about hardly ever being able to go too big...

http://www.depewfamily.com/forumuse/HTSammy.jpg

[OKCrew]

Just as an aside, what a God-awful set of forums from a design/usability standpoint. Doubtless a treasure-trove of information, but what kind of site owner would ONLY put the search box on the home page and not inside the actual forum pages? 8O And it looks like searching is only for registered users, so I have to register just to search - because there's no per-brand forums (which I find bizarre).

I'm sure by now you have found that you can search within an individual forum after you enter it. It is titled "Search this Forum". I find the individual forum search works very well with specific model numbers I am looking for.

[Jason Dunn]

I did the deed: today I ordered the 72" Toshiba, a four year extended warranty, and a Samsung 960 DVD player. w00t! :D

Thanks for your feedback/input everyone, I really appreciated it!

[Felix Torres]

The Samsungs are nice upscalers.
Have a lot of aspect ratio options, too.
I have one. A bit finicky with home-burned DVDs...
On the 1080i/p debate, no, it doesn't make much of a difference and for movies a case can be made for 1080i.

On the overscan issue, I know the current-gen Toshiba LCDs support 1-to-1 pixel mapping on 1080 sources, so its likely the current DLPs do, too.

On the VGA supported resolutions, the japanese CE companies only offer official support to the VESA resolutions but the sets often support higer resolution. Check the 1080p compatibility threads at you-know-where (they have an XBOX forum). Similarly, 1080p over component might not be impossible.

Have fun with your new toy.

[cameron]

Jason - try to get your hands on an extra projector lamp. The Toshibas are notorious for not-so-long lamp life.

I've had mine for right on a year (rcvd at the house on 1/14/2006) - on Saturday I had the TV on while working on some pictures and heard a 'POP' - the sound of the lamp bulb giving it up.

Just ordered a replacement (plus an extra).

I know you got the extended warranty - which will probably cover that. However I don't know how long I'm going to be without the TV - so something to consider.

[Jason Dunn]

I know you got the extended warranty - which will probably cover that. However I don't know how long I'm going to be without the TV - so something to consider.

Actually, the extended waranty doesn't cover the bulbs because it's a consumable part.