Log in

View Full Version : The Zen Vision Conundrum


Jason Dunn
12-28-2006, 04:00 PM
I'm a bit torn over what to do here, so I thought I'd seek the advice of the Digital Media Thoughts community. I've long had my eye on the Zen Vision (http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=210&subcategory=211&product=12985), and nearly purchased one last year at CES because they were offering a discount for on the spot orders. Problem was, they didn't have any to sell, they'd mail them to you. Being in Canada, that meant expensive customs brokerage fees that would essentially erase the savings. Why did I want the Zen Vision? Two main reasons: one, for taking TV shows/ripped DVDs with me when travelling, and two, for using it to share photos/videos with friends and family. The big screen was a plus, as was the built-in speaker. I had heard bad things about the VGA screen though, being hard to view at even a few degrees off-axis - which would make it exceptionally bad for showing pictures to multiple people.
http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/images/zen-vision-589972_lg.jpg
I waited for a new version, and was excited about the Zen Vision:W - especially the 60 GB version. But Creative changed the aspect ratio of the screen, making it 16:9, and while they made the screen bigger (4.3 inches from 3.7 inches) they also lowered the resolution from 640 x 480 to 480 x 272. That's more than 50% less overall resolution. So now I'm unsure if I want the Zen Vision:W, seeing as most of the content (TV shows recorded on my MCE and photos) aren't formatted for a 16:9 screen - giving me less overall usable screen size. Dell has a special on this week, selling the 60 GB Zen Vision:W for $349 CAD with free shipping. If the original Zen Vision were selling for cheap, I'd likely pick one of those up - but eCost is still selling the 30 GB black unit for $379 USD (http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=589972). In fact, it seems like there's no "old model discount" to be had because Creative is still selling it for $399 USD. No great deals on eBay that I can find either.

What about the Zune you might ask? The 3 inch screen is a decent size, but their idiotic software resizes images to 640 x 480 then scales it to 50% on the screen resulting in poor-quality images. Yes, I can re-size the images myself, but it's an added hassle. The the limited codec support on the Zune makes it a poor choice for many types of video content. I remain a big fan of my Zen Vision:M, so I'm leaning toward the Zen Vision:W. This isn't one of those "must have" purchases, it's one of those "I'd like to have one of these" purchases - I've wanted a nice, big-screen media player for a couple of years now, but I can't seem to decide which one is a better choice - the Zen Vision or the Zen Vision:W. Opinions? Part of me is wondering if I shouldn't order it from Dell, use it for a week when I'm down in Vegas for CES, then decide if I want to keep it. I'm generally not a fan of "abusing" return policies like that, but I guess that's why they offer them (in part).

Jeremy Charette
12-28-2006, 04:31 PM
Just buy an iPod already. :lol:

Jason Dunn
12-28-2006, 04:36 PM
Just buy an iPod already.

An iPod with its wee squinty screen? Whatever for? ;-)

Jeremy Charette
12-28-2006, 05:04 PM
Effectively the Vision W has a 3.51" screen in 4:3 mode, and 363x272 pixel resolution. The Zune has a 3" 4:3 screen, and the iPod has a 2.5" 4:3 screen. So yes, the iPod is smaller, but it doesn't give up anything in resolution to the Vision W or the Zune.

What it does have is smaller overall size, a better user interface, the click wheel, and better battery life than either of the competitors. The 80 GB model goes 6.5 hours in video mode now.

Here's my recommendation: buy the 80 GB iPod. Get an iFlip external screen for watching movies on videos on the plane (or showing them off to family). It's an 8.4" screen no bigger than a portable DVD player.

I know it's hard to give in, but honestly, the iPod is the superior product, from user interface to design to software.

Jeremy Charette
12-28-2006, 05:05 PM
http://www.memorexelectronics.com/images/products/mi8000-blk_main.jpg

http://www.memorexelectronics.com/html/product_detail.php?PID=202

Jeremy Charette
12-28-2006, 05:50 PM
But if your heart is set on the Vision, get the W. If all you're playing is music, get a much smaller flash based player, but for video, go big.

Jason Dunn
12-28-2006, 06:15 PM
What it does have is smaller overall size, a better user interface, the click wheel, and better battery life than either of the competitors. The 80 GB model goes 6.5 hours in video mode now.

Heh. Man, you're so barking up the wrong tree. ;-) The 80 GB hard drive and 6.5 hours of battery life are appealing, but the UI of the iPod is ghetto and trapped in 2002 you won't find me buying one. iTunes is great if you do things the Apple way, but a complete and total nightmare if you don't. No, an Apple iPod may be great for many people, but not for me.

randalllewis
12-28-2006, 07:10 PM
I am still using my Zen Vision (no letter) and very happy with it. I have ripped six favorite films to it and I regularly sync it to the PC when I add new pix or tunes. I still have about 9GB to spare. The Vision goes with me on every plane flight and it makes a nice way to share photos at a viewable size. Now, if I could just beem my tunes to another user....hmmm.

The user interface is superior to the iPod (sorry) and I like the original screen. The narrow viewing angle is a reality but that also adds to the screens brightness. If you can live with the viewing angle of an LCD TV, you can live with the viewing angle of the Vision.

Jeremy Charette
12-28-2006, 07:11 PM
Okay, well:

1) What don't you like about the iPod UI? What exactly is "ghetto" about it?

2) What is so nightmarish about using iTunes? Last I checked, it doesn't force you to re-arrange your music files, and automatically converts non-DRM WMA files for you.

I really am interested in having this discussion, I'm not just trying to push buttons. I used to be a staunchly anti-iPod. I even recommended that friends buy Rio and Creative products instead, but then I switched, and I see no reason to go back. Even the Zune doesn't sway me.

I'd be interested to see what would happen if someone gave you an iPod for a couple months, and you honestly gave it your best shot to use it and see if you liked it.

Jason Dunn
12-28-2006, 07:23 PM
1) What don't you like about the iPod UI? What exactly is "ghetto" about it?

It's like DOS. It's boring. It's plain. It's functional, yes, but compared to the UI on my Zen Vision:M or (especially) the Zune, it's just not nice. Like I said, it's obviously great for most people but I find it boring and not pleasing to use.

2) What is so nightmarish about using iTunes? Last I checked, it doesn't force you to re-arrange your music files, and automatically converts non-DRM WMA files for you.

Well, did you read this thread?
http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/index.php?topic_id=11460

That explains a lot of it. I've also been using iTunes more and more lately, and I still find it frustrating. I'll be posting about why later.

There's also ZERO functionality for my Media Center TV shows, and no easy way of going from DVR-MS files to an iPod-compatible MPEG4 as far as I know, so since that's one of my core scenarios that pretty much overrules every other factor.

The iPod is great for many people, but for me, and especially for the scenarios I've described in my initial post, it's like a square peg in a round hole - it just doesn't fit.

Jeremy Charette
12-28-2006, 07:52 PM
What about a PMC like your Gigabeat S?

Jeremy Charette
12-28-2006, 07:56 PM
DVR-MS to iPod solution:

http://blogs.digitalmediaphile.com/barb/2005/11/17/MCE+Recorded+TV+DVRMS+To+Apple+Video+IPOD.aspx

Jason Dunn
12-28-2006, 08:07 PM
What about a PMC like your Gigabeat S?

Very small screen, no built-in speaker...again, square peg, round hole. ;-)

Janak Parekh
12-28-2006, 08:13 PM
Just buy an iPod already.
Jeremy, you know that's not practical for Jason. Jason has an investment in WMA/WMV, and is specifically looking for a small device with a decent-sized screen for extended video playback. I personally love my iPod, and I'm a Mac user, but I agree with Jason it's not practical for him for the variety of reasons he's cited.

Jason, I'll take an opposing view: why is getting another Zen so important? You already have the :M for the times when you want to travel light. Don't you usually carry a laptop when you travel for longer periods? If so, why wouldn't it be the ideal media solution? Personally, I love watching video on my laptop. The screen is huge and hi-res, no conversion or downloading needed, etc.

I think the Vision or the Vision:W might make sense if you didn't have the :M, but I feel like you'll end up carrying more weight and not actually getting your money's worth of use out of them. Also, the thought of having to carry a :W, a :M, a laptop, and a Pocket PC sounds a bit overwhelming to me. (Trust me, I have gadgetitis too, but I try to resist it as hard as I can, because I'm always afraid I'll end up with so many devices I'll use each of them only sparingly.)

--janak

Jason Dunn
12-28-2006, 08:20 PM
Jason, I'll take an opposing view: why is getting another Zen so important? You already have the :M for the times when you want to travel light. Don't you usually carry a laptop when you travel for longer periods? If so, why wouldn't it be the ideal media solution?

Yup, I've used my laptop for that in the past, but I guess I'm looking for something new and fun. ;-)

Also, the thought of having to carry a :W, a :M, a laptop, and a Pocket PC sounds a bit overwhelming to me.

Nah, I wouldn't carry them all with me. If I was taking my laptop, I wouldn't take the :W or the :M. I'll probably use my Zune or the :M for music, or possibly the :W if I was travelling with it.

mace
12-28-2006, 08:36 PM
I know price may be an issue, but ever since I got my umpc (Samsung Q1P). I hardly ever use any other portable music or video device.

Jason Dunn
12-28-2006, 08:42 PM
I know price may be an issue, but ever since I got my umpc (Samsung Q1P). I hardly ever use any other portable music or video device.

Yeah, the UMPC still has my interest, but not at the current price points/battery limits. I definitely am looking forward to the improvements we'll see at CES this year and throughout 2007...

Suhit Gupta
12-28-2006, 09:28 PM
[quote=Janak Parekh]Jason, I'll take an opposing view: why is getting another Zen so important? You already have the :M for the times when you want to travel light. Don't you usually carry a laptop when you travel for longer periods? If so, why wouldn't it be the ideal media solution?

First off, I am going to say that I completely agree with Janak here. Dude, you are buying this only because you are itching for a new gadget and not necessarily because it is actually going to be useful. :) In fact, I'd dare say that given your current cache of devices, you will probably use this device a couple of times (due to its novelty) and then forget about it. Honestly, I have been there myself, but I am being particularly direct about this one because it is relatively expensive.

If you buy a small laptop or tablet PC or some such that has multiple uses, i.e. beyond multimedia alone (and a bigger screen) then I can see it making sense. In fact, if you do get the :W and then get a tablet like device later on, you will have wasted your money, IMHO.

I feel that with your current set of devices, you will end up spending too much of your time deciding which device to pick at any given time to help solve your needs (at that time) and then getting your files ready for that device, not to mention the time to transfer files back and forth. Instead, I would say that between a laptop, a Zune and an :M, you should be ok.

I honestly don't mean to be a killjoy, but it just feel like an overkill device, IMHO.

Suhit

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

Jason Dunn
12-28-2006, 09:48 PM
I honestly don't mean to be a killjoy, but it just feel like an overkill device, IMHO.

Hey, you sound like my wife! :lol:

Well...maybe it is. I guess I'll meditate on this for a while and decide if it's something I really need. Considering I just cancelled my lease on the three Dell 24" wide screen monitors and instead placed orders to purchase three new ones outright, perhaps my funds are better spent elsewhere. :wink:

Dyvim
12-28-2006, 10:16 PM
What about a VGA Pocket PC device with a biggish screen and Core Player? That will probably give you the most codec support and about the best resolution and screen size. True, storage is an issue, but I'm guessing you already have a lot of memory cards to throw movies on. Of course power is also an issue, but at least a Pocket PC can be used for many things. I personally love watching movies on my Toshi's 4" VGA screen- I rip my DVD's to DivX using the free Dr. DivX tool. Anyway, just a thought in case you can find a Toshi e800 or Axim x50v or iPAQ 4700 on eBay for a reasonable price (or one of the other VGA devices out there).

Damion Chaplin
12-29-2006, 03:12 PM
First I think you should go see the :W somewhere in person to see if you can live with the lower resolution. It's my hunch that you can. If they hadn't lowered the resolution, this would be a no-brainer and you probably would have bought it already. So I say check it out. View the Vision with the Vision:W side by side if you can. If the res on the :W is too low, just spend the extra money on the Vision.

bluemax
12-29-2006, 03:22 PM
... and automatically converts non-DRM WMA files for you.

I don't see any advantage in converting files from one lossy format to another lossy format. The yield is distortion and noise. If you can't hear it, then it probably doesn't matter. But it is very apparent in some forms of music.

I too have problems with iTunes/iPod I have one and am pleased it holds all 300+ of my CDs. I like the fact it tracks my Audio books; matching book marks between my iPod and my desktop. But, version 7 has brought some quirks I'd rather do without. It' is slow, cumbersome and very hungry for resources. I've had it damage some MP3 files just by editing the tags. There was a distinct difference before the edit and after.

Bill B

Jeremy Charette
12-29-2006, 04:18 PM
Or just wait for the first portable HD-DVD players to come out, with 720p or 1080p screens. 8) :lol:

jeffd
12-29-2006, 07:09 PM
Jason, I would get the W. I'm not sure what tv shows you are watching, but once it goes HD, it will be in wide screen, so think of the future. Frankly I watch widescreen shows on my M's 320x240, wich means i am seeing it in a resolution less then that, so the W screen would be like twice the resolution compared to current 4:3 320x240 solutions. In the end, I bet it looks pretty sharp considering its still a small size screen. You will probably notice a hit in your photos though, since it will be still images and you will be straining your eyes to pick out all the details, and notice the low resolution. But it should pass for most.

casinova
01-04-2007, 07:26 PM
this search shows several selling Vision:M for $199 USD:
http://techbargains.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=15660800&search=70PF169000001

I know you are in Canada but maybe one of these will ship there?

Jason Dunn
01-04-2007, 07:33 PM
this search shows several selling Vision:M...

Thanks, but I already have a Zen Vision:M, this thread was about the Zen Vision and Zen Vision:W, the larger units. ;-)

casinova
01-04-2007, 07:46 PM
ahhh, I love their naming schemes...not confusing at all :lol:

I remain old school: 60gb external USB laptop HD for files & Dell X50v to watch my movies/TV shows (with 2GB SD & 2GB CF). All these multimedia players are cool but not flexible with the formats for me.

igroknful
01-05-2007, 09:09 AM
Have you considered any of the Archos products? I have a 100Gb Archos 500 and I love it. :D It's the best purchase I made in 2006 and I have a lot of geek toys..

Rhonda

Jason Dunn
01-05-2007, 02:53 PM
Have you considered any of the Archos products?

I have, but my own opinion is that their user interface is very rough and not elegant...I've tried out a few Archos models in stores and I didn't like the way they functioned. I'll be honest though, I can't remember which models - the ones in the stores in Canada are usually older models so perhaps my assessment isn't fair. We're tried a few times to review Archos products here on Digital Media Thoughts, but their press/media people give us no love - we've never been able to get any of their products for review.

I took at a look at the specs of the 604 and 504, and I'm impressed with how thin they are - 23mm for the 80 or 160 GB, and only 17mm thick for the 30 GB version. WOW. 8O Impressive stuff.

Maybe I'll seek out Archos at CES and see if I can make a good contact there...