When Hardware Upgrades Go Bad

[Jason Dunn]

<img src="http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/images/broken-mce-sad.jpg" /><br /><br />Know what that's a picture of? My sad and broken Media Center PC. It all started on Saturday. My MCE 2005 machine was in sad shape - I had a semi-corrupt install of dCut that I couldn't uninstall, several broken Media Center plugins, Internet Explorer crashed every few visits to the MSN Music page, and general performance woes. It was running with an ATI Radeon 9600 Pro, and there were issues where it wasn't playing nice with the nVidia MPEG2 decoder, so I bought an nVidia 6600 card to replace it a few months back. I was reluctant to wipe it all out and start again, but the final nail in the coffin was when I started getting near-constant mshtml.dll crashes on IE.<br /><br />So two weekends ago I backed up all my data, cracked open the case, and installed the nVidia 6600 card. I booted it up, installed Windows Media Center 2005, and was off. The install was fairly smooth, though it got a bit hairy when the MSDN install DVD was asking for "Disc 2" and I didn't have one - I managed to find the particular file the installer was asking for on a Windows XP CD, but after that point it was smooth. I rebooted the machine a few times as I was installing software and patching Windows, and every time during the initial boot screen (BIOS/POST) I'd see bizarre characters sprinkled randomly across the screen. Once it booted into Windows things were fine, so I wasn't sure what to think of it. My initial fear was that the video card was defective, but if it worked in Windows I wasn't too concerned. I left the machine running and used the nVidia performance enhancement software - when I returned a few hours later the machine was locked up. I rebooted and saw nothing but a blank screen. I checked the cables, rebooted again, and got a green screen - and this is all prior to Windows booting. Bad video card. &lt;sigh><!><br /><br />I managed to find an old AGP card - a Riva TNT2 with a whopping 16 MB of RAM. The card is old, but it works - kind of. Even though the current batch of nVidia drivers claims to support this card, when I tried to install them I got an error about having an unsupported card. So the card is semi-functional with the current drivers - when I load the Media Center interface it gives me an error about the drivers not being compatible, yet still loads. There are no transitions, but I could navigate the basics enough to get my shows scheduled for recording. Problem is, I can't watch them - I get a driver error. I'm not surprised, and not upset that MCE doesn't support such an ancient card. It gets worse though - I can't get the Xbox 360 to connect to this machine for the remote MCE access. The setup gives me an error that says "Try again later" - but it never works. I've sent the XFX card off for replacement (had to wait a few days to get an RMA), but they don't have a cross-shipping program so it will probably be another week until I'm up and running again.<br /><br />And to add icing to the cake, the same day all this happened (two weekends ago) I also did a parts swap to upgrade a Dell Dimension 2400 - and that was a complete disaster. I didn't realize until I cracked open the case that it lacked an AGP slot (I wanted to put the Radeon 9600 Pro from the MCE into the Dell) - it's less than a year old, but Dell made some budget decisions and only put PCI slots on the motherboard. I should have known that, considering I paid $399 CAD for it. I tried to put in a 2.8 Ghz P4 CPU several months ago, only to discover that it had a wussy 200 watt power supply. I got that upgraded, then tried to put the chip in again on this fateful day - and it still wouldn't boot. I did some more research, then smacked my head into my keyboard when I realized that the Celeron-based system wouldn't support the 800 mhz FSB P4 CPU I put in there. Then I ran out of thermal paste and couldn't even install the original Celeron CPU. Zero for two attempts at geekhood.<br /><br />Oh, and then there was the rather expensive <a href="http://tinyurl.com/dswem">Belkin KVM with DVI</a> - I thought it would be an improvement over my previous KVM, but I was shocked to see that it only had USB ports for both the keyboard and mouse. The Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse combo I was using has a PS/2 output for the keyboard (as does my two previous Microsoft kits), so I was baffled as to how Belkin expected people to use wireless keyboard &amp; mouse combos with this KVM. Turns out they don't - they expect people to use wired mouse and keyboards. Thanks for being stuck in 1999 Belkin. I've since bought a PS/2 to USB adaptor and will give that a try, but I'm not hopeful.<br /><br />What are some of your worst hardware upgrade nightmares? Come on, don't make me feel like I'm the only one here. ;-)<br /><br /><i>Jason Dunn owns and operates <a href="http://www.thoughtsmedia.com">Thoughts Media Inc.</a>, a company dedicated to creating the best in online communities. He enjoys mobile devices, digital media content creation/editing, and pretty much all technology. He lives in Alberta, Canada.</i>

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Ugh, sorry to hear about that. Doubly sorry to say that the only tale I have is the one involving a motherboard swap which required Windows to be reinstalled as the-then install of Windows refused to boot up... and I left the install discs elsewhere! Whee!

[Jeremy Charette]

Don't feel too bad. Michelle has been complaining for a while that her computer is too slow (and it is). I built it for her a couple years ago, using a PC Chips motherboard with an embedded VIA C3 GigaPro processor (667 mhz) and 512 MB of PC133 SDRAM. Slow, yes. But also silent, which she wanted badly.

So a couple months ago I told her to buy a new motherboard/CPU combo from Newegg, with an AMD Athlon XP 2400+ processor. I threw in some leftover parts I have laying around (512 MB of PC2700 DDR SDRAM, and an ATI Radeon 9200 Pro video card, and a 600 watt power supply) and voila, instant new computer. Right?

Wrong. It wouldn't get past the boot screen. After the BIOS boot screen, the monitor would go black, the system shut down, and it rebooted. Repeat, ad infinitum. Endless reboot loop. Greeeeeeeeat. So I pulled the cables out, hooked up the old motherboard, and pre-installed the drivers for the new motherboard in XP. The CD wouldn't let me install the drivers because the hardware wasn't present! Argh!

So I figured I'd just boot from the Windows XP Pro CD and re-install the OS over the existing installation, which usually solves the problem without having to lose all my data and programs already installed. Perfect, now where did I put that CD?

In my software CD binder. At my parents' house. Four hundred miles away. :?

Three weeks later I finally got the CD from my father, re-installed the motherboard, and re-installed Windows. Then came the arduous task of installing all the Windows updates, Office updates, Drivers, setting up the networking...six hours later the computer was fully functional again.

But in the end, she's happy, I'm happy, and we have a screaming new computer. She keeps having to kick me off because I've been downloading and playing WMV HD videos over and over again, drooling all over the keyboard. Guess I'll have to re-build my desktop PC now. :wink:

[jeffd]

Bah, you were insane to not find out what your motherboard could support before buying upgrades. ;p I'm like sherelock holmes when ever I want to consider a cpu upgrade because you need to find out not only if your model number can support it, but if your hardware revision and your bios can support it. And as for your agp slot issue, I would have figured that out overtime by looking at the driver, not to mention where 4-32 megs of my ram dissapeared too. ;)

[Kursplat]

This is one of the advantages of a Tivo/Replay/other dedicated DVR. When using a PC for recording shows, you are subject to downtime because of any number of PC issues (bad drivers, incompatibilities, hardware failures, etc). While the PC is out of commission, your shows aren't being recorded.

Don't get me wrong, I love using both methods, but the PC route is definitely prone to more headaches.

[jeffd]

kurs, in what way is tivo immune? Last I checked tivo still has a cpu, a hard drive, a video chip, tuner boards. Whats worse is if a tivo breaks, it is not nearly as easy to fix. Also tivo has significantly less features.

[Jeremy Charette]

I also did a parts swap to upgrade a Dell Dimension 2400 - and that was a complete disaster. I didn't realize until I cracked open the case that it lacked an AGP slot...

Don't feel bad. My brother wanted to play games on his Dimension 2400, and I offered him an unused ATI Radeon 9200 Pro card I had, but it wasn't 'til we cracked the case that we realized that the 2400 has no AGP slot. Makes sense I suppose, if you're making hundreds of thousands of motherboards, and you can save 30 or 40 cents a piece by not including the AGP connector, that's a huge cost savings in the long run. Just another way Dell cuts costs and increases profit margins.

[Jason Dunn]

Bah, you were insane...I'm like sherelock holmes...I would have figured that out...

It must be nice to be perfect Jeff, and never have any problems. :roll:

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Wrong. It wouldn't get past the boot screen. After the BIOS boot screen, the monitor would go black, the system shut down, and it rebooted. Repeat, ad infinitum. Endless reboot loop.

Hey! That's the exact same situation I described in my post above. Except that the CD was 10 miles away, not 400. :P

It does seem that Windows doesn't like a motherboard swap.

[Kent Pribbernow]

I feel your pain, Jason. I just built a new rig and have had problems from day one. Initially I thought it was bad RAM, but now it appears the problem may be with the motherboard. It started out as weird problem with download files from the internet. Large downloads (like software demos) are often corrupt.

Then I started doing a bit of casual gaming and noticed that some bizarre behavior during gameplay. For example; in Call of Duty 2, I notice an astounding level of AI, and transitions that fail to activate (completing an objective is supposed to trigger other events but don't).

I also notice that if I put the system in standby mode, I lose my web connection upon resume.

Now I have to determine the exact cause (I'm thinkin mobo or processor...God forbid they both be faulty) Oi! The pain. :cry:

[Kursplat]

kurs, in what way is tivo immune? Last I checked tivo still has a cpu, a hard drive, a video chip, tuner boards.

I didn't say Tivo was immune. In fact, I had the modem go out on mine after about 10 months and never got around to fixing it. I now have a Replay.

Whats worse is if a tivo breaks, it is not nearly as easy to fix.
If my $50 Tivo "appliance" breaks, I go buy another Tivo (or in my case, a ReplayTV).

Also tivo has significantly less features.
This isn't a discussion about which is better or which has more features, so let's not try to turn it into one. Sure, there are a ton of advantages to MCE PCs, but let's leave that for another discussion. I merely said this is one advantage to a dedicated appliance. While I have my computer in pieces upgrading the video card and memory so that Call of Duty runs smoother, my ReplayTV is quietly sitting under the TV recording Smallville. (Not really, but you get my point)

[James Fee]

If Jason has troubles, how will Microsoft ever take on TiVo and the Cable company DVRs? Time to stick a fork in MCE and focus on the Xbox 360 as a DVR.

[sojourner753]

I feel your pain Jason,

I remember a couple of tragedies when I was built my SageTV rig.

One ruined AMD 64 CPU, and one ruined 6600GT gfx card. The latter was also accompanied by a few cuts and scrapes on my right hand.

[jeffd]

Bah, you were insane...I'm like sherelock holmes...I would have figured that out...

It must be nice to be perfect Jeff, and never have any problems. :roll:

Don't take it out of context.. I am perfect when it comes to researching my motherboard for upgrades (namely cpu/ram).. cause I sooo hate returns, especialy when its my fault. :oops:

[Gremlin]

The Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse combo I was using has a PS/2 output for the keyboardWhich Logitech Keyboard/Mouse combo is that? I don't think I've ever seen any of the logitech's not have both USB and PS/2 on their wireless receiver, same with all the Microsoft ones I've seen in the last few years, Generally all have a USB and PS/2 connector on them, and you only need the USB in, not the PS/2 as well (I usually cut the PS/2 side of it off myself just to save having something flapping around).

[Jason Dunn]

...and you only need the USB in, not the PS/2 as well (I usually cut the PS/2 side of it off myself just to save having something flapping around).

Umm...only the USB connection needs to be plugged in? :oops: Wow, that's crazy, I never knew that - I've always connected both the USB and the PS/2 plug. So with the Belkin KVM I should theoretically only need to connect the USB plug to one of the two ports for mouse and keyboard? Hrm. I'll have to give that a try - thanks for the tip!

[Gremlin]

Yeah should work fine Jason. I sometimes find connecting it to one of the HUB ports on a Belkin KVM works better as well (usually prevents annoying things like the KVM registering certain keystrokes to change screens etc).

[lapchinj]

...I rebooted the machine a few times as I was installing software and patching Windows, and every time during the initial boot screen (BIOS/POST) I'd see bizarre characters sprinkled randomly across the screen. Once it booted into Windows things were fine, ... but if it worked in Windows I wasn't too concerned. I...and got a green screen - and this is all prior to Windows booting. Bad video card. &lt;sigh><!>
Yeah anytime you see those bizarre charaters you should know that they spread like a virus and and will get you in the end like you found out.

I haven't bought a computer in 12 years since I think that I do better building them myself using components that I want. I have now 7 machines up and running (crazy I know) 1 Suse Linux and 1 Windows 2003 server that run 24/7/36?. Unfortunately I don't always get the results that I want but generally I don't have to take the fluff that the manufacturers pack in to make a product or some no-name brand that I have no way of checking on specs. I have found that since costs of products are dirt cheap (generally) quality seems to suffer so I do see hardware failures of items such as graphic cards the most. And usually if I do have a machine hang even after running for months the first thing I pull is the graphics card since it is my biggest problem.

I don't know if this qualifies as a story of woe but it was spooky (but non-the-less cool) watching a machine slowly go off into never, never land. Not too long ago I was able to boot Windows but I was unable see any drives in explorer so I rebooted and went into the BIOS were no drives listed (spooky). I rebooted again and went back into Windows. Again I couldn't see any drives in explorer (now this is real soooky/scarrrrry). To make a long story short that went on for about an hour and half until I finally did that last reboot into hell and Windows went off someplace to Mars. How do I know where you ask? Since my screen was full of all those little character from Mars. These aren't 'bizarre' characters like you describe but rather Martians from another dimention slowly eating away at the internals of your graphics card. :) cool movie 8)

Maybe that's what called advanced computing. Windows was giving me a look into one of those 'Black holes' way out on the edges of the universe (spooky but cool).

Jeff-

[Jason Dunn]

Thanks for sharing Jeff. At least I know I'm not alone. ;-) It's funny, I'm the most "high tech" person my friends know, but they're baffled when I tell them my tales of tech woe...I guess when you play with tech bleeding edge, you get cut up. Lots in my case. :roll:

[Jeremy Charette]

It's not you Jason, it's just that because the Personal Computer is such an open platform (by design), it's difficult (if not impossible) to predict what software and hardware conflicts might occur with any given combination of components. This is part of the reason I think the Xbox 360 will be more successful than Windows MCE, even thought it is more limited in terms of what it can and can't do. Users won't face the myriad possibilities of conflicts and errors that the MCE platform presents.

[Jeremy Charette]

It gets worse though - I can't get the Xbox 360 to connect to this machine for the remote MCE access. The setup gives me an error that says "Try again later" - but it never works.

Dunno if this will help, but check this link out:

http://www.jakeludington.com/xbox/20051203_windows_media_connect_cant_see_my_xbox_360.html

[Jason Dunn]

Dunno if this will help, but check this link out

Nope, different problem, but thanks. ;-)

[Janak Parekh]

Umm...only the USB connection needs to be plugged in? :oops: Wow, that's crazy, I never knew that - I've always connected both the USB and the PS/2 plug.
Yes. In fact, I was surprised when reading your article -- I have not used PS/2 peripherals for some time. Those plugs are only there for backwards-compatibility.

As to machine woes: this is why I build far less machines now than I used to. Not only have specifications and options gotten far more complex, the tolerances have grown less. It's too easy to build a machine that doesn't work "quite right". The last machine I built for myself was my 2GHZ P4 a couple years ago. I stuck with very "standard" volume parts, like Intel mainboards, specifically because I no longer have time to debug weird problems. The machine ran like a champ all this time until one of the two hard drives in the machine died. I now use a Powerbook G4 as a daily driver, which makes for a pretty lousy media machine, but it's great to just be able to "plug in and work" and not have to worry about a single darned driver. If I had to buy a desktop today I'd buy a G5. Not cheap, but neither is my time. ;)

And, for the record, I've built many hundreds of machines over the last 20 years (maybe more, I can't keep track). I used to build machines for customers, and have been building 'em since the 8088 days. It had gotten to the point where I could assemble a machine in less than 10 minutes from parts in boxes. And before that I was cracking C64s and replacing ICs and mainboards and realigning 1541 drives (ugh). I can't believe I'm saying that was easier than researching and building machines now. :( My personal server in my office, which is a micro-ATX AMD Duron 1GHz is starting to act up (power supply just died, and it's a special form factor, so right now it's sitting open with a regular P/S next to it), and I'm seriously contemplating just buying a built machine instead of building a new one from scratch. Otherwise, I'd research the components on NewEgg for days before beginning...

--janak

[Darius Wey]

I'm a bit of a hardware junkie - always keeping up with the latest trends in hardware and putting the best parts together to create the ultimate computer. I've always been building them for myself and for friends and it's something I really enjoy. Fortunately, I've only ever had one significant issue.

A year or two ago when 80GB HDDs were top-notch, I went to my local computer store and bought a Seagate 80GB HDD. I stuck it in and it failed to work. At first, I thought it might have been my RAID setup, so I took it off the RAID connectors and connected it straight to the primary IDE. Again, it failed. So, off I went to the computer store to get this dud replaced. They handed me another Seagate 80GB HDD. Repeat experience - it was 12 hours of no-go. Back to the computer store and asked for a Western Digital. Whacked it in the computer and lo-and-behold, it worked fine. Looked like I was struck with a rotten egg batch from Seagate. :roll: