Back from the Longhorn Lab: Reporting on the Xbox 360

[Jason Dunn]

Last week I spent a day on Microsoft's campus, getting a great deal of information about Windows Vista, the next version of Windows (formerly known as Longhorn). While much of the event was under NDA, and most of what I learned about Vista I can't talk about, the last session of the day happened to be about the Xbox 360 and it's media capabilities, and was not under NDA. So here's what I learned...<br /><br />There's a software update for Windows Media Center Edition 2005 PCs coming out fairly soon, code-named "Emerald". The official name is "Roll Up 2 for Media Center Edition 2005", and it will primarily add two features: support for the Xbox 360, and support for moving from 13 up to 33 countries in terms of guide support for TV. There were rumours about Emerald incorporating support for HDTV tuners/cable cards, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on what I was told. It also seems to be only for MCE 2005 PCs, so anyone stuck with MCE 2004 is out of luck - including <a href="http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocument?lc=en&cc=us&docname=c00264084#">HP notebook owners like myself</a>. Lucky for me I have another PC with MCE 2005 on it. ;-)<br /><br />I got some hands-on time with the Xbox 360<!>, and the presenter answered some questions about it. The Xbox 360 will, in some countries, come with a "shorty" remote - it controls the DVD playback, navigation of the blades, and it can be used to turn the Xbox off and on (perfect for those of us using the Xbox as a media box). There will be a "tall" remote that contains more buttons and will be sold at retail. The Xbox 360 will have built-in 10/100 Ethernet, but no wireless - there's a small adaptor that will be sold as an accessory, and supports 802.11 b/g/a.<br /><br />The big deal for me was the built-in Media Center Extender software - with the current generation Xbox, you need to put in a special CD to have the Xbox connect to your MCE 2005 computer, and the end-user experience was pretty horrible because it was essentially a special remote desktop client running. This meant you didn't get any of the smooth transitions, there was a lag with every button press, and it generally wasn't great. It was impressive as a proof of concept, but I for one wanted more and the Xbox 360 delivers: because it has a full client built in, you get a first-class experience when using the Xbox 360 as a Media Center Extender. Rapid response to buttons and selection movement, fast responses to changing screens, and direct TV viewing (including HD content) are all supported. The one thing the Media Center Extender interface doesn't do is visualizations for music - which kind of sucks given the Xbox is going to be connected to the big-screen TV in most homes. :?<br /><br />The Xbox 360 was playing a high-definition WMV file off an MCE computer located elsewhere on the Microsoft campus, and I was impressed - the video started quickly, was responsive to commands from the Xbox wireless controller (yes, you can control your media with the remote). The demo was for Ghost Recon 3, and the graphics were jaw-dropping. What's most interesting here is that these first-gen games are largely single-threaded. Game developers have received Beta development kits within just the last few weeks that contain the actual tri-core CPU and dual-core GPU that the final hardware will have. Up until this point, they have been coding the launch titles to run on the dual-CPU Apple G5 development kits, using off the shelf ATI GPUs that are significantly slower than the custom GPU being developed for the Xbox 360.<br /><br />A common question I've seen in our forums is how the Xbox deals with media. There's a 20GB hard drive on board that can be used for ripping CDs - there's a CD ripping client (I didn't see it though) that will connect to the 'Net and download track names - my assumption is that it will only rip to WMA and at a certain bit rate. The Xbox 360 will also have the ability to play photos and videos (WMV only I think) from external devices, so you can hook up your Zen Micro and play music off of it, and someone mentioned you could connect a USB thumb drive with videos and it would work. I don't know if you'll be able to copy over videos and photos from external sources - the Xbox 360 seems to be largely focused on being a conduit for content coming from another computer. On the plus side, however, you'll be able to install the Windows Media Connect software on any PC you have in the home, and the Xbox 360 will be able to access it. Those of you with Windows Media Connect will already know how this works - let's just <a href="http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,8504">hope it's reliable</a>.<br /><br />That's about all I know right now, but needless to say it made me want an Xbox 360 even more!<br /><br /><b>UPDATE:</b> A few people have emailed me saying that the Xbox has visualizations, which I wasn't disputing: my "no visualizations" comment was strictly for the Xbox functioning as a Media Center Extender, meaning when you're connected remotely to your MCE 2005 machine and listen to music, you won't be able to use the visualizations off the MCE 2005 machine...which isn't a loss because they're really lame anyway. The Xbox itself has some wicked visualizations - a helpful person pointed me <a href="http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2005/07/05/jeff_minter_vs_xbox_360_how_microsoft_bought_the_light_synth_vision.html">to this article</a>. Can you imagine seeing <a href="http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/images/neon/thumbs/neon16.png">this on your big screen TV?</a> The real question is, if you're listening to music from the extender UI, is there a way to flip over to the local Xbox visualizations? Or will you only be able to use the killer Xbox visualizations for local music on the hard drive or a USB-connected player?

[JTWise]

Cool - thanks for the update Jason. Really good report - I can't believe that it wasn't included in your NDA. I already have an Xbox but I think the media features will probably push me to the 360. I love my xbox, but not being able to turn it on remotely or interface well with non-MCE PCs was a drag. I had started a mod project, but never got around to finishing it. Most of the features that I was modding for look like they will be included in the 360. Maybe I can even talk the wife into letting me build that new MCE system :wink: .

[Jeremy Charette]

Here's some sample shots of what Jason's talking about:

The Media Blade:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Xbox36010.jpg

The "tall" remote:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3a/Remotecontrol360.jpg/166px-Remotecontrol360.jpg

Something Jason didn't mention, video chat:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Xbox36006.jpg

[Jason Dunn]

Nice pics Jeremy! :way to go:

Something I forgot to add: I looked at the Xbox hardware, and this was obviously a prototype, but I think this will be the same on the final unit: the audio/video out was a single dongle, and at the end (which I couldn't see) is where you'll have the DVI output. The Microsoft person said he thinks there will be multiple dongle options sold, so you can get the one you need to connect to your system. I'm sincerely hoping the one in the box will support DVI and digital optical...but they'll probably have to also support analog as well. The upside is that because of this dongle all the other cables can be hidden because only this one will be coming out of the Xbox 360...well, that and power (I think).

The controller felt a little heavy, but the battery pack was pretty big and the MS guy said that battery life was awesome. It had a good feel to it.

I wish I would have had more time with the unit...

[entropy1980]

If this (http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000327051932/) turns out to be true you will have a lot of people pissed off, me included. I mean come on include the dang cable! :roll:

[Felix Torres]

Nice pics Jeremy! :way to go:

Something I forgot to add: I looked at the Xbox hardware, and this was obviously a prototype, but I think this will be the same on the final unit: the audio/video out was a single dongle, and at the end (which I couldn't see) is where you'll have the DVI output. The Microsoft person said he thinks there will be multiple dongle options sold, so you can get the one you need to connect to your system. I'm sincerely hoping the one in the box will support DVI and digital optical...but they'll probably have to also support analog as well. The upside is that because of this dongle all the other cables can be hidden because only this one will be coming out of the Xbox 360...well, that and power (I think).

The controller felt a little heavy, but the battery pack was pretty big and the MS guy said that battery life was awesome. It had a good feel to it.

I wish I would have had more time with the unit...

The video adapter setup you describe is *exactly* how the current XBOX works.
It makes moving the box between sites very convenient. :-)
You get to choose between a composite video cable assembly, an s-video cable, or a component video cable. Third party vendors provide alternative cables with different audio/video combinations, including VGA-out, and RCA even sells a line of XBOX-ready TVs that use a pure pass-through cable to feed the raw XBOX output to the TV. The cables are all fairly cheap and range in price from $10-20. Most XBOXers own more than one...

For the 360, MS has already announced three cables: a composite/s-video cable, a component video cable, and a VGA cable so the 360 can be connected to computer monitors.

Original XBOX video output is pure analog signals so it is possible the 360 will follow suit.
(BTW, did they explicitly mention DVI? I don't recall seeing any mention of DVI OR HDMI anywhere in print or online.)
One thing MS did with the first XBOX was invest in very high quality video converter chips so XBOX video output has generally been extremely clean and rich both for games and DVD playback.

Oh, MS has also anounced that the 360 dashboard *will* support USB keyboards for data input; whether any games do so is up to developers. Should be interesting if their new wireless MCE keyboard works withnthe 360...

[Phoenix]

I'm also eager to get a couple of Xboxes for my home. They look like they'll be fantastic machines.

But I have to say, I'm really shocked to hear that the box won't have built-in WiFi. I understand an adaptor will be available, but I couldn't imagine what their reason would be for doing things that way - seems like an oversight (but I'd be interested to hear what Microsoft's reasoning was with that) - I'd think that integrated wireless would be a no-brainer these days. That's something the PS3 will have over the Xbox. At the very least, hopefully, the adaptor won't be some big clunky router-sized box connected to the Xbox with a wire - that would be stupid. I'm hoping this adaptor Microsoft will offer will be more along the size of a thumb drive.

No support for visualizations is a bit of a disappointment to me as well, but this is minor and I'm sure could be added with a firmware update of some sort - that is, if Microsoft would even offer such a thing.

And why don't they include two gamepads by default? But of course, this has to do with Microsoft wanting to make more money. Personally, I don't care all that much about it not including cables - I go out and buy Monster cables anyway, but most people probably would care. An included second gamepad would be what I'd like to see though - essentially having everything you'd need right out of the box for two people to play without additional expenditures in cash would be nice. People will already pay enough for this machine along with the cost of games and maybe custom cables. But oh well.

Other than that, I can't wait...

[Felix Torres]

But I have to say, I'm really shocked to hear that the box won't have built-in WiFi. I understand an adaptor will be available, but I couldn't imagine what their reason would be for doing things that way - seems like an oversight (but I'd be interested to hear what Microsoft's reasoning was with that) - I'd think that integrated wireless would be a no-brainer these days.

My guess, and its just a guess, is that there are three reasons, alone or combined:
1- WiFi is marginal for MCE extender functions and SD video streamjng; MS says g is acceptable but a is preferred. Wired, though, is way better and many folks will have the cable modem near the TV and the 360. DSL is a different story, of course.
2- Consoles have 4-5 life cycles; a/b/g rules today but will likely be history by 07-08. N is supposed to start taking over in 06.
3- Cost. MS has hinted they want the 360 to price around $300 which is the current list price of media extenders and connected DVD players. Wireless would probably push it. And since it would likely go unused for a lot of customers...

There is a difference between a useable feature and spec-gaming (witness the SONY PS/3 dual HDMI support, which requires games to explicitly support and manage the dual displays; anybody want to guess how many games will use dual 1080 displays? How many customers will be able to play that way?) and MS *is* losing money on the hardware at launch (curiously, word is they're losing *less* than the current XBOX at its current price, which is one of the reasons for launching first). So I'm thinking (3) weighs heavily on designers, maybe more than (1) or (2)...

Me, I have a wireless router but when and if I get a 360 (okay, 90% certainty!) I'll be hooking it up with wire.
The extra bandwidth is worth it.

[Jason Dunn]

But I have to say, I'm really shocked to hear that the box won't have built-in WiFi.

I can't speak for them, but here's my assumption: out of the box, every Xbox has to be able to do the same thing, the same way. Microsoft has to have a consistent launch experience. If wireless was in the box, can't you just see some goofball hooking up to his 802.11b network and then screaming at Microsoft because he can't stream HD videos off his computer? By making it an accessory, Microsoft can put it in a package that has all the legal crap they need to have to protect themselves.

Additionally, adding wireless on-board adds to the overall cost - I for one don't need it, and I suspect many others will not either. I wouldn't want to pay an extra $20 for something I don't need. ;-)

No support for visualizations is a bit of a disappointment to me as well, but this is minor and I'm sure could be added with a firmware update of some sort - that is, if Microsoft would even offer such a thing.

The lack of visualizations is only when it's in Media Center Extender mode - there may be visualizations on the actual Xbox itself for music playback...but I didn't get to see that, so it's still a mystery to me.

And why don't they include two gamepads by default? But of course, this has to do with Microsoft wanting to make more money.

I'm trying to think back, but hasn't every console released in the past decade only come with one gamepad? I seem to remember Intellivision-era consoles coming with two, but not recently. I think it's just the way it goes - cost-cutting again, because most people probably only need one. They do everything they can to get the price of the core box as cheap as posible.

[Jason Dunn]

If this (http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000327051932/) turns out to be true you will have a lot of people pissed off, me included. I mean come on include the dang cable! :roll:

Yeah, see, that's REALLy surprising - you'd think they'd have to include an analog cable in the box. 8O

[Jeremy Charette]

(curiously, word is they're losing *less* than the current XBOX at its current price, which is one of the reasons for launching first).

If you read "Opening the Xbox" by Dean Takahashi, you'll find actual figures for production costs for the Xbox. They're not losing any money at this point. They're just about breaking even, possibly making as much as $5-10 per unit.

Another reason they're offering the wifi dongle as an accessory: higher profit. They can make more money selling the dongle for $30-50 than they can by tacking $25 onto the base unit, which I suspect is about all consumers would go for.

It's just another example of the latest manufacturing strategy: mass-customization. Give consumers a relatively inexpensive generic base model and tons of options. This way a broad range of consumers can customize the product to their tastes. It's another way Microsoft is trying to appeal to more people, not just the 16-26 year old hardcore gamer crowd. It's also the reason they're offering faceplates to customize the front of the Xbox 360.

Smart moves, if you ask me.

[Felix Torres]

If you read "Opening the Xbox" by Dean Takahashi, you'll find actual figures for production costs for the Xbox. They're not losing any money at this point. They're just about breaking even, possibly making as much as $5-10 per unit.


Could be.
I was going by an interview Balmer gave where he said that one of the reasons XBOX 360 is launching now is the economics of the first XBOX today. The tone was that with the propietary hardware they'd be losing less on the new model than they are on the current model.

As or customization, well, its pure profit; what's the cost of stamping out a chunk of colored plastic? Pennies. Certainly less than the packaging and shipping costs...

Now, where the game gets interesting is the option of embedding ROM into the faceplate to allow for interface reskinning as well as case mod'ing.
Again, a couple bucks worth of ROM and assembly leading to a decent profit.

And they're going to need all these secondary sales because, unlike the original, which has the highest attach rate for any console in history, the 360 will *not* come even close to the original's game attach rate and MS knows it and has planned for it.

Too many people are going to buy the 360 as a media device that occassionally plays games...

The trick is to find ways to make money off the media functions through music and video downloads.
Me, I still think the music subscription service MS is working on is for XBOX live as well as MSN.

That should balance the books real quick...

[expletive]

IMO, there's one and only one main reason for MS (possibly) not including a cable - $299. Not to mention the fact that probably half of the regular AV cables they includeed with the first one were left unpacked in favor of Svideo or HD versions.

Of course MS will make some more money by charging for cables seperately but the main driver for what to include or not to include are driven by them hitting 299 and not losing money.

What will be interesting is if PS3 comes in at 399 or *gasp* 449, if that will impact sales. Its going to be a tough sell if someone comes in to Gamestop buy a PS3 (and a game) on launch day and sees a 360 and Halo 3 for $150 less...

John

[Jason Dunn]

Welcome to the site John! Always nice to have new users chime in.

What will be interesting is if PS3 comes in at 399 or *gasp* 449, if that will impact sales. Its going to be a tough sell if someone comes in to Gamestop buy a PS3 (and a game) on launch day and sees a 360 and Halo 3 for $150 less...

Very true, especially when you look at the fact that the buyer probably doesn't have a TV pimped out to really take full advantage of what the PS3 has to offer - 1080p, dual DVI? Ambitious, but overkill and it will drive the PS3 to a price point that will make it less attractive for consumers. This will be interesting to watch...

[expletive]

Thanks for the welcome Jason i really enjoy the site!

My $0.02 on 1080p and Dual display...

A lot developers have already said that any game with truly next gen graphics that pushes the limits of the hardware will not be able to run smoothly in 1080p on the RSX. So while 1080p may be nice for blu ray movies, it wont be useful for the best games. Not to mention the very low percentage of consumers that will have 1080p capable displays in the next five years compared to 720p. If you only have a 720p display theres no benefit for the console to render and spit out 1080p, only to be scaled to 720 by the displays internal electronics.

The rumor is that dual display was an accident. Sony had originally wanted to use 2 or 3 cell processors to handle everything in the ps3 including graphics. When Sony realized the cell was not adept at graphics, they reached out to nvidia late last year to get a GPU from them. Nvidia hadnt been working on a custom console GPU like ATI was for the 30 so they offered up a PC part- G70 (RSX). The G70 has dual display as a capability for its PC users so Sony just stumbled onto that. TO their credit they marketed it as great feature and lots of people have bought in. Personally, the number of people that have the capabilities to use 2 displays is so small i cant see any developer except posssibly Sony spending the money to support it.

John

[Queasy]

So if I have a WMCE2005 computer with DiVX or XviD files on it will I be able to play them through the X360?

[pjladyfox]

Jason Dunn,

Saw a link to this thread on Joystiq and wished to post here since, personally, I can not wait until my hubby and I can get our hands on one. ^__^

I did wish to pick your brain a bit about a few things:

1. Will the 360 have DVI or HDMI output in addition to VGA, component, and composite?

2. Did they mention anything in regards to how 720p and/or 1080i output would be handled? Would it work thru component and DVI or just thru one of them?

3. In regards to the MCE abilities, would you be able to play a PC game off of the MCE system? For example, say you had Halo 2 PC installed on your MCE box would you be able to launch and output it to your HDTV thru the 360?

4. Did they mention if DivX and/or Xvid playback will be possible thru the 360?

[Sierex]

I was linked to the article you posted jason from one of the other sites I frequent, and found it very informative... thanks for sharing the info. :D

I have to say pjladyfox poses an interesting question about MCE's abilities to stream applications running on an MC PC to the XBOX 360 via the Media Center Extender option on the XBOX 360. Though, I'm pretty doubtful that you would be able to play a PC game through your XBOX, I wonder if it is at least possible to stream the visual/audio content of the game to your TV through the XBOX 360. I'm sure that if someone was using an HDTV in 720p or higher resolution they could make out the details that wouldn't be possible to make out on a standard tv, and actually give a more "home theatre" experience to PC gaming... almost as if the XBOX 360 could mimick some of the capabilities of the Phantom (playing PC Games through your TV and stereo system).

Also, i'm curious about the update that will supposedly happen to enable Media Center PC's with MCE 2005 to be compatible with the XBOX 360's... Any word on if Microsoft may possibly release Windows Media Center software on it's own, or maybe bundled with a TV PCI card or something? I would hate to think that only people that have purchased a Media Center PC or those who've "illegally" obtained a copy of the Media Center software are the only one's who can take advantage of this feature.

[Queasy]

Also, i'm curious about the update that will supposedly happen to enable Media Center PC's with MCE 2005 to be compatible with the XBOX 360's... Any word on if Microsoft may possibly release Windows Media Center software on it's own, or maybe bundled with a TV PCI card or something? I would hate to think that only people that have purchased a Media Center PC or those who've "illegally" obtained a copy of the Media Center software are the only one's who can take advantage of this feature.

You can find OEM versions MCE 2005 at online stores such as newegg or directron pretty easily.

[Sierex]

You can find OEM versions MCE 2005 at online stores such as newegg or directron pretty easily.

nice! thanks for the heads up... after reading the FAQ at microsoft's site, I figured anyone without a MC PC was left out in the dark.