Who can I legally share music with?

[Ploobers]

This question goes for both music CDs as well as Video DVDs. Legally, is it ok for me to share music with family? I don't share over the internet or with friends, but is it legal for me to burn a CD I buy or give MP3's to my sister? Could I rip my parents' DVDs to put on my hard drive?

[Jason Dunn]

This is tricky since when it comes to music the law isn't clear in North America. I'm not a lawyer, but people bandy about the term "fair use" a lot without really understanding what it means. The truth is there's a lot of fuzzy edges to the laws...and I think neither the MPAA or the RIAA really want to define fair use in the courts - because they might lose like the people who brought suit against VHS recorders (who was that anyway? the movie studios?).

Morally, I have no problem ripping or burning a CD with songs from CDs that I own and giving it a family member or friend. Duplicating entire albums gets a bit more dubious - someone asked me for a copy of a CD I bought because they lost their copy...so they paid for it once but lost it. Does that give them a right to another copy? Hard to say - I did it for them, but I felt a bit curious about it. The truth is there's a LOT of grey in this area and, as usual, until the law catches up, it's up to each of us to decide what we think is fair.

With DVDs, if you live in the USA, this is more clear cut: breaking the DecSS encryption is illegal and a violation of the DMCA. Period. There is no "fair use" with DVDs if it involves cracking the encryption. Still, no one has taken this to court to "test it out" - I'm not aware of the MPAA suing anyone for ripping a DVD that they own. They're focusing on people who are sharing DVDs they don't own with others...

[Ploobers]

With the DVDs, I'm really interested in the TerraTelly thing that was posted on here a week or two ago. Is ripping a DVD to that a violation of the DMCA? Similarly, Kaleidescape is getting sued for a similar product (http://news.com.com/Hollywood+allies+sue+DVD+jukebox+maker/2100-1025_3-5482206.html). The legality of these makes me shy away a little, but I love the idea of having all my movies available without searching and without the possibility of getting lost or scratched.

[Jason Dunn]

With the DVDs, I'm really interested in the TerraTelly thing that was posted on here a week or two ago. Is ripping a DVD to that a violation of the DMCA?

Yes - technically, the only way to get content from a DVD to ANYTHING else is to break the DecSS and thus violate the DCMA. But, realistically, is the MPAA going to go after individual consumers who are ripping DVDs they own? I don't think so...

[OSUKid7]

Wow, great question. I'm glad someone else out there wonders about the legality of these types of things. I've wondered these same questions many times, and truthfully don't know the answer. I've asked around, and gotten a ton of different answers. I'd really like to see a good Digital Media Law website, or even talk to someone who works in that area.

Great questions...wish I knew the answers. :|

[OSUKid7]

Yes - technically, the only way to get content from a DVD to ANYTHING else is to break the DecSS and thus violate the DCMA. But, realistically, is the MPAA going to go after individual consumers who are ripping DVDs they own? I don't think so...Hmm...so those DVD to Pocket PC-type applications are "illegal" too? I understand they're not gonna sue people for it, but ethically, is that right that I would have to break the law to watch a movie I own on my Pocket PC?

[BugDude10]

While I'm no expert in international law, I'm pretty sure that you can share your digital media content with anyone whose name starts with a consonant or a vowel. Or both.

[Jason Dunn]

Hmm...so those DVD to Pocket PC-type applications are "illegal" too?

Yes. When you look at the fine print, you'll see that they aren't allowed to be sold in the USA - most of them at least. That's because the developer knows he could get nailed under the DCMA.

I understand they're not gonna sue people for it, but ethically, is that right that I would have to break the law to watch a movie I own on my Pocket PC?

The law and ethics have little to do with each other. At one point in history it was legal to own slaves, etc. The law is often decades behind morality, and sometimes the law goes one way while morality goes another. I don't want to turn this into a political thread, but if morality is telling you to do one thing, and the law is saying something else, it's called civil disobedience. :-)

It might seem silly to some to compare the civil rights movement with ripping a DVD, but ultimately the future of consumer rights is at stake, so it's pretty important business in my mind.

[OSUKid7]

The law and ethics have little to do with each other. At one point in history it was legal to own slaves, etc. The law is often decades behind morality, and sometimes the law goes one way while morality goes another. I don't want to turn this into a political thread, but if morality is telling you to do one thing, and the law is saying something else, it's called civil disobedience. :-) Ah, and do we have the right to civil disobedience? If it breaks the law? Ah so many good questions with no direct answer.

It might seem silly to some to compare the civil rights movement with ripping a DVD, but ultimately the future of consumer rights is at stake, so it's pretty important business in my mind.So as a law-abiding citizen, I should support consumer rights such as digital media portability, but not violate the DMCA and other laws myself? Hmm...it'll be interesting to see where this goes in the next few years.

[Ploobers]

One thing that went through my mind was that maybe household would be a defining factor, that's why I listed Immediate Family in two separate categories in the poll. I don't know that anybody would contest a spouse listening to the same music, but what about their kids? That seems like a logical extension to me. Your kids shouldn't have to pay for their own CD to listen to Disney soundtracks, but then where does it end? If my grandpa bought the CD, does it just get passed down the line from generation to generation? What if all my music were my parents, then would I be able to give it to my kids? Is there maybe a limit based on distance from the original owner?

This is bringing up a lot more hairy questions. I guess I figured that this was defined somewhere in the mounds of legal texts, but I guess not. Looking at it from the other side, what sharing is definitely illegal? Like Jason said, is copying an album for a friend illegal? If so, how would making a mix for a friend differ from that?

[aro]

All this ripping is technically illegal but we cannot put the fault on the digitals era. Back in the eighties I was copying all my friend best VHS movies. And they were doing the same with my collection. 2 VHS recorders and I was having a lots of fun! I was having even more fun with my double tapedeck-radio ghetto blaster. Can you imagine the amount of VHS copies and music cassettes that had been made since these technologies first came out. Why? I think that is because these the music and movies majors always sold their stuff way too expensive. And I knew at that time that this technology would be obsolete before I would hit 35 and it happened! What can I do with all my dusty Disney VHS collection I bought for my kids in the 90ties? I still have an old VHS recorder that I keep for legacy... These VHS cost me a fortune. Am I going to pay an other big chunk of bacon for DVDs? no way. Finito!
20$ as a canadian average for a movie on DVD. More than 40$ when they throw cool(sic) stuff in it.
Someone told me once that the problem was that today it is easier to duplicate media. I would not bet my cleanest shirt on this one. My mother made VHS copies in the eighties with the only help of the VHS recorder manual. I would not even try to make her understand how to rip a DVD movie(I am not sure I understand it properly myself!). Even ripping off a cd gives about 75% of computer user pimples.
Nobody will ever convice me that I would make an illegal act by duplicating a cd that I bought to give to my sister. I was doing this 20 years ago and will do it today without any sorts of remorses.
For exemple I gave a copy of a tango cd I've bought to my sister last year. Well, she bought 3 cds of the same tango band in that last year. I have plenty of exemple.
Finally, with the opening of the canadian iTune store I bagan to buy track and CDs on it. I am at this right moment copying some of them to give to my brother. And you know what? I am sure that he will buy from iTune store as I will tell him how easy it is and about the economy he would make. And that he will make copies of tracks to my sister that will eventually buy CDs on the internet and so and so...
Finally, all it takes is an easy and cheap way of purchasing medias.

aro

[Jason Dunn]

Some further thoughts...

When I was 10 years old and had a Laser 128 Apple IIe clone, my rich friend had TWO floppy drives, and he found some cracking software that allowed him to copy all his games. Hell, HIS games were all copies. Naturally, being a greedy 10 year old with no sense of intellectual property, I copied all his cool games - and we played them both at the same time, every day, for months. That's piracy and theft, pure and simple. But even today, almost two decades later, kids aren't any different - they want what they want when they want it, IP be damned. ;-)

Now think about that same scenario when it comes to music or DVDs and it becomes a bit more nebulous. Even if I were to rip a DVD from a friend and watch it once, it's not like we're both going to watch it every day at the same time. If I give a friend a mix CD I made with music I own, the odds that we'd both be listening to those random songs at the same time are slim. But if that same friend asked me to copy 20 complete albums, I'd say no because that's about him wanting to build his music collection without buying anything.

Ultimately much of this comes down to intentions. I have some "legacy" MP3s that are from CDs that I don't own, but only a few complete albums that I don't. If I like the music, odds are I'll buy the CD or buy it digitally. Anyone who looks at my music/DVD/VHS collection can tell that I spend a lot of money on that industry, so I feel that I support the industry financially. I have a friend, however, that has something like 100+ DVDs in DivX format - many of which he hasn't even watched - and only a few physical DVDs. His intention is to collect DVDs that he hasn't paid for, which I think is wrong - and he knows I think that. ;-)

Then again, the practical side of me knows that the prices for CDs and DVDs remain high partially because they have a built-in assumed piracy cost. Oh, and the stars that just HAVE to make $30 million a picture. :roll: If CDs were $6.99 and DVDs were $9.99, I think piracy would become quite rare. The $1/song industry has shown that the majority of people will pay for music if it's easy, affordable, and convenient.

[Darius Wey]

Hmm...so those DVD to Pocket PC-type applications are "illegal" too? I understand they're not gonna sue people for it, but ethically, is that right that I would have to break the law to watch a movie I own on my Pocket PC?

That's a great point you make, and I can see how this whole issue can furrow into a dialectical debate of endless proportions once more. Those DVD to Pocket PC applications are widely used by many to encode movies (personally owned or not owned) to a PPC-friendly size. However, they too can be used to optimise home DVD movies and whatnot. It's easy to assume that they can be used for illegal purposes, but in fact, they can be used legally as well. No one thinks about it though as everyone takes it for granted. So many companies out there have the fine print, as Jason has mentioned, on what the program should and shouldn't be used for. A vast number of scenarios exist in our common tech world where legality clouds the acts of ripping/copying/etc. It's difficult to analyse it, but it does make for interesting discussion nonetheless.

[Kursplat]

Like Jason said, is copying an album for a friend illegal? If so, how would making a mix for a friend differ from that?

Who said they differ? I suspect they are both technically illegal. For the sake of argument, *IF* you were to be sued for either of these acts, I suspect the mix would probably get you into more trouble since you're probably being sued by multiple artist/labels for songs ripped from multiple CDs. But I had a better change of getting a jaywalking ticket this morning then you do for getting sued for a mix.

[Kursplat]

While I'm no expert in international law, I'm pretty sure that you can share your digital media content with anyone whose name starts with a consonant or a vowel. Or both.

That sucks. Blatant descrimination against people with names starting with numbers and/or punctuation marks!

[sojourner753]

With DVDs, if you live in the USA, this is more clear cut: breaking the DecSS encryption is illegal and a violation of the DMCA. Period. There is no "fair use" with DVDs if it involves cracking the encryption. Still, no one has taken this to court to "test it out" - I'm not aware of the MPAA suing anyone for ripping a DVD that they own. They're focusing on people who are sharing DVDs they don't own with others...


I seem to remember a court battle concerning the product DVDxCopy. I believe it was the MPAA who sued. Or it may have been DVD encryption companies. As I recall, the DVDxCopy company lost.

[Jason Dunn]

I seem to remember a court battle concerning the product DVDxCopy. I believe it was the MPAA who sued. Or it may have been DVD encryption companies. As I recall, the DVDxCopy company lost.

Right. Then they released a version of the software that didn't have the built-in decryption - you had to go download it off a Web server outside the USA - but in the end that company died and the MPAA used their assets to run more "Don't Pirate!" commercials...likely the same ones they have in movie theatres, the ones seen by people who are paying $10 each to see a movie and support the industry. The people who don't pirate... :roll: