And Here I Thought MP3s Were More Compatible...

[Jason Dunn]

Remember <a href="http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5589">my crisis of faith a few months ago</a>? Well, after ripping my past 5-10 CDs in MP3 format, I ran into another roadblock that made me realize things aren't always as simple as they seem. I had ripped a song in MP3 format using Sonic's RecordNow Deluxe, which uses the LAME encoder (although it's not an encoder, right? What is it - an MP3 codec?). A few weeks later I was doing a project in Photo Story and tried to import the MP3 - and it wouldn't work. What?? MP3s are supposed to be compatible with everything, right? I re-ripped the CD in WMA format and was able to import the track just fine. So now I was confused. :? <br /><br />I've recently made the acquaintance of some helpful people in the Windows Media group at Microsoft, so I handed the file over to them and asked what was wrong. After some investigation they came back and told me there are some known issues with the LAME encoder creating MP3s that aren't quite...right....and that while WMP has no trouble playing the song, Photo Story was gagging on the file because of this issue. If the MP3 was created using anything other than LAME, I would have been able to import it. So here I thought that if I switched to MP3 for ripping I wouldn't have any problem. But, silly me, I managed to pick the wrong TYPE of MP3 ripping program. &lt;sigh> :roll: <br /><br />So now I'm back to being wishy-washy on the formats. I think I'll probably go back to WMA, although I really wish it had more advanced features for ripping - I want software that will compare the ripped file to the original CD and ensure that it's 100% correct. Lately I've started to come across more and more CDs that don't seem to rip quite properly. Is iTunes a good MP3 ripper? What codec do they use?<br /><br /><i>[Conspiracy theorists among you might be thinking that Microsoft purposefully didn't make Photo Story fully compatible with MP3 files, but I personally don't believe that to be the case.]</i>

[that_kid]

Oh no 8O my entire collection of mp3's have been ripped using lame :( . I can say that I've done many projects in Vegas Video where I used mp3's from my library and I didn't run into any problem. I will have to keep an eye/ear out for this problem when wokring on things. Thanks for the heads up Jason.

[Janak Parekh]

LAME is such a ridiculously popular encoder, that I find this very weird. :(

Jason, did you play with turning VBR on and off? Some MS products still have trouble with VBR.

As for iTunes, it uses the original Fraunhofer codec. Apple is footing the bill for every free copy of iTunes downloaded. 8O It would be ironic if you end up using an Apple product for compatibility with MS. :lol:

--janak

[klinux]

Man, I hear you!

The question has been asked before but without reverse engineering, one will not know what MP3 codec iTunes use.

I am a little bit suspicious about MS's answer though.

[Janak Parekh]

The question has been asked before but without reverse engineering, one will not know what MP3 codec iTunes use.
Hmm, I guess I'm wrong then. :| I heard "Fraunhofer" some time ago, but I can't find any evidence of it. I don't use it much, though.

--janak

[sub_tex]

Lame is bby far the most used codec out there, so I'm very suprised too.

The VBR idea is probably the culprit. I know several apps don't like VBR at all.

[Felix Torres]

No, its not just MS that has a problem; I've seen it with several APEX DVD players, the HP EN5000, and the Rio Volt SP-100; some MP3 files just won't play.

The APEX firmware is helpful enough in its own way; it flags the files--all ripped at the same time off the same CD--as MP2 rather than MP3 like the ones that do play. To make it more fun, some of the misflagged files play fine.

But LAME alone is not to blame; I've seen the same effect with two of the commercial MP3 plug-ins for WMP and several standalone rippers. In general, they play fine on the PC but not on devices that rely on hardware decoders.

Dunno about VBR, but I was using fixed bit-rates.

I seem to remember WMP has had MP2 playback capability for ages so its likely it doesn't care what the file looks like.

After a while I just gave up and moved on with WMA; those play fine everywhere so far, even stuff I ripped with the experimental WMA7 beta encoder way back when. I did have a problem with WMA8 and the 32kbps WMA7 beta songs, but transcoding them with the Poikosoft converter I was able to convert them to WMA8 format with no trouble.
(I was using a cassette adapter to feed music from my RIO volt to my old car stereo at the time, okay? Since I wasn't going to get better than tape quality anyway, I went with 32kbps "lp-quality" WMA files; 700 per CD. When I got the RIOT I re-ripped at the higher-quality CD bit rates. I figure I'll do it a third time with WMA lossless when the 100Gb jukeboxes get here in 05-06; I added an aux-line-in to the new car...)

[vission]

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/ProductPage_n.asp?Product_ID=1476&Langue_ID=2

It has a nice set of options and will automatically split songs from Audio cassette or Vinyl.

Oh, and very stable.

Vission

[that_kid]

Well I've played my mp3's in various systems and all of them played fine. I don't use vbr so that may be another reason for my success.

[Filip Norrgard]

Yup, VBR might be it. I've used LAME before and I can recall that I had varying failures if I had enabled VBR. Especially cool where the cosmic sound effects I got on an iMac once from playing the VBR LAME MP3s! :lol:

iTunes MP3 encoder isn't bad in anyway just good, but it seems like it tries to hide some ID number in the MP3 files, which might be of a privacy concern since I haven't seen that mentioned explicitly anywhere in iTunes' license. (Or I just missed that part written in Lawyer language -- which I'm yet to understand.) :?

[Lee Yuan Sheng]

Yea, VBR gives a load of problems. LAME BTW, is an MP3 encoder.

[Mojo Jojo]

To the iTunes question...

I have always seemed to have success when ripping music into mp3 format and then using those files with programs like final cut and such. No issues to date.

iTunes is free, give it a try and rip the song that is giving you trouble. Interested in hearing your feedback on this.

[dean_shan]

Yea, VBR gives a load of problems. LAME BTW, is an MP3 encoder.

Is it? (http://lame.sourceforge.net/)

[Tim Williamson]

Could this be the results of lazy programming on the part of Microsoft?

Or maybe since they KNOW that LAME is the most used MP3 codec they made it not work in Photo Story on purpose!

Oh Crap! Here come the black helicopters, I'm outta here! :wink:

[mememe]

I use itunes, it rocks w/ NO 8) compatibility problems and doesn't define me as a Microsofty zealot :twisted:

[Tim Williamson]

I use itunes, it rocks w/ NO 8) compatibility problems and doesn't define me as a Microsofty zealot :twisted:

Anyone know how many portable MP3 players are compatible with Apple's audio format, WMA, and MP3?

[mememe]

I use itunes, it rocks w/ NO 8) compatibility problems and doesn't define me as a Microsofty zealot :twisted:

Anyone know how many portable MP3 players are compatible with Apple's audio format, WMA, and MP3?

What other MP3 players :lol:
There is only 'one'.. that is the ipod :D

[Tim Williamson]

I use itunes, it rocks w/ NO 8) compatibility problems and doesn't define me as a Microsofty zealot :twisted:

Anyone know how many portable MP3 players are compatible with Apple's audio format, WMA, and MP3?

What other MP3 players :lol:
There is only 'one'.. that is the ipod :D

That's what I thought...Apple Zealot! :wink:

[Crocuta]

Yea, VBR gives a load of problems. LAME BTW, is an MP3 encoder.

Is it? (http://lame.sourceforge.net/)

Did you even read the site you just linked us to? The origins of the name notwisthstanding, the very first sentence on the page you linked to says, "LAME is an LGPL MP3 encoder." They continue on to explain how it wasn't always an MP3 encoder (hence the name), but it is now. Case closed; Lee Yuan Sheng is correct.

[dean_shan]

Yea, VBR gives a load of problems. LAME BTW, is an MP3 encoder.

Is it? (http://lame.sourceforge.net/)

Did you even read the site you just linked us to?

Should have stuck the :wink: emoticon next to my link. I just wanted to point out that an encoder's name originally said it wasn't an encoder.

[Jason Dunn]

Oh no 8O my entire collection of mp3's have been ripped using lame :( . I can say that I've done many projects in Vegas Video where I used mp3's from my library and I didn't run into any problem.

Well I have a feeling that this is more a case of Microsoft's software being extremely picky about the MP3 file format - we've had the same problem with the Pocket PC WMP for years where it wouldn't support MP3 files that the desktop WMP would play just fine.

I didn't mean to come across as saying LAME was a bad choice, just airing my frustration that once again I got burned by a format and you'd THINK that MP3 would be as basic as it gets. Maybe I should switch to WAV files. :roll:

[Jason Dunn]

Jason, did you play with turning VBR on and off? Some MS products still have trouble with VBR.

Nope, the ripper front-end I was using didn't have an option for VBR.

[Jason Dunn]

Is it? (http://lame.sourceforge.net/)

I think it's a joke that has gone on too long now - you look at the graphic title, and it clearly says "Lame 'Aint an MP3 Encoder", then below it says:

"LAME is an LGPL MP3 encoder..."

So who knows...!? :roll:

[klinux]

Could it be an ID3 tagging problem? Maybe some applications do not support certain id3 versions (latest is v2.4)?

[sylvangale]

LAME is an MP3 encoder and can be used as it via DOS command prompt. However it is popularly used with frontends so you don't have to deal with DOS.

"Sonic's RecordNow Deluxe" website gives no reference in using the lame encoder on their website and a search through their support area for lame draws no results. How do you know it uses LAME as an encoder, is a re-write of the LAME source, or if it uses LAME at all?

LAME is considered a MP3 burning standard and I have had no problems playing my LAME VBR MP3s even with Windows Media Player nor on my PDA through PocketMusic, that Winamp clone, and pocket media player
... I use LAME and EAC (exact audio copy) as a front end.

I would suggest going to an audio enthusiast site such as hydrogenaudio.org and asking about your problem in their forums.

[Jason Dunn]

"Sonic's RecordNow Deluxe" website gives no reference in using the lame encoder on their website and a search through their support area for lame draws no results. How do you know it uses LAME as an encoder, is a re-write of the LAME source, or if it uses LAME at all?

Because the product manager for RecordNow told me. :-) Also, in one of the advanced screens for the MP3 ripping it reference LAME and links to the site.

[sylvangale]

Also... I think that LAME by default burns VBR MP3 and as such if there were a big VBR problem it would have raised a big stink by now.

Does recordNOW act as a front end or did they implement some of LAMEs source. As a front end... what were your LAME settings? That would explain help to pinpoint your problem.

[Jason Dunn]

Does recordNOW act as a front end or did they implement some of LAMEs source. As a front end... what were your LAME settings? That would explain help to pinpoint your problem.

No clue. The settings were very simple - only two options...NORMAL and HIGH QUALITY I think. I've since uninstalled it so I can't check any further. I appreciate you trying to help me out, but I'm not going back to using LAME, so there's really no need for further investigation on your part. ;-)

[that_kid]

I didn't mean to come across as saying LAME was a bad choice, just airing my frustration that once again I got burned by a format and you'd THINK that MP3 would be as basic as it gets. Maybe I should switch to WAV files. :roll:

Don't worry Jason I know how you feel. When I first started ripping my cd's I went through the wma vs mp3 debate myself. I settled on mp3's cause just about everything supported mp3's but there are times when I wonder if I should've went the other way. I too thought about going straight wav but for that I'd need at least a 10TB storage system and I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

[Mark from Canada]

I am using CDex http://www.cdex.n3.net/ as ripper.
It allows you to select different encoders, has several options for reading the CD (faster/more accurate) and shows you when it notices that a song didn't come over properly from the CD so you can re-try it in a slower setting.
And it doesn't cost a thing.

Mark

[Tim Williamson]

I am using CDex http://www.cdex.n3.net/ as ripper.
It allows you to select different encoders, has several options for reading the CD (faster/more accurate) and shows you when it notices that a song didn't come over properly from the CD so you can re-try it in a slower setting.
And it doesn't cost a thing.

Mark

I've been using CDex with the LAME encoder for the last couple years and I highly recommend it! It's flexible and all the options are logically laid out for you, plus you don't have to deal with any command line stuff.

[Janak Parekh]

CDex is indeed very good. We use it for Ogg ripping, but yes, it supports nearly everything (including WMA, IIRC). :D

--janak

[sylvangale]

CDex is inferior to EAC. Though it has a better interface, it has artifact issues that EAC doesn't because it only does a once thru the audio sectors when ripping where as EAC checks at least a couple times or a hundred if you want. So even wavs can be not quite so pure...

The CDex problem is compounded when you use a CD drive that uses cache (which most modern drives do).

EAC is really great at scratched CD recovery when you set it at a high enough re-read rate.

One of many CDex vs EAC threads:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=22388&hl=

[Tim Williamson]

Cool I'll have to check out EAC when I get a chance. 8)

[Jonathon Watkins]

I rip with Musicmatch, which used Fraunhofer encoding. It sounds great and no problems so far......

[sylvangale]

Musicmatch's Fraunhofer encoder is worse than lame for anything 128k and up... but it is better than lame at 64k and down.... though Mp3pro is the best MP3 encoder for sub 64k encoding.
Overall MP3 encoding in general sucks in comparison to Ogg or WMA below 128k.

However overall MP3 encoding in lame at 128k is superior to WMA and equal to ACC (Noting that MP3 can do VBR, you can probably get better quality MP3s than AACs at a smaller size).

Hydrogen Audio's latest 128k testing result:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21904

[Jonathon Watkins]

Musicmatch's Fraunhofer encoder is worse than lame for anything 128k and up

:?: Where do you get that info from? How can MusicMatch's Fraunhofer be any different from other Fraunhofer implantations? Music in, perform Fraunhofer codec calculations, MP3 file out surely?

Don't say you have to take the software 'wrapper' into account as well? Fraunhofer = Fraunhofer surely? I rip at 192 and chose Musicmatch partially because it rips in the superior (or so I was informed by many articles) Fraunhofer codec. Mistake? Why is Musicmatch's MP3 encoding bad at over 128 then?

[sylvangale]

I didn't mean to say MusicMatch's Fraunhofer is inferior to other Fraunhofer implementations, but that Fraunhofer itself is inferior to lame at bit rates higher than 128k. However at bit rates lower than 128k Fraunhofer is better than lame.

Fraunhofer uses IS (Intensity Stereo) which gives it enhanced quality at low bit rates (as does MP3pro).