Sony Introduces 20GB iPod Challenger

[Kent Pribbernow]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.com.com/Sony+challenges+Apple+with+20GB+music+player/2100-1040_3-5253866.html?tag=nefd.top' target='_blank'>http://news.com.com/Sony+challenges+Apple+with+20GB+music+player/2100-1040_3-5253866.html?tag=nefd.top</a><br /><br /></div>"Sony Electronics will begin selling two hard-drive music players this fall which, combined with its new music download service, will create an iPod-like parallel universe.<br /><br />The consumer electronics giant announced two products late Wednesday: the $400 20GB Network Walkman NW-HD1 and the $500 40GB Vaio Pocket VGF-AP1L. Both players will be available in fall for use with the Sony Connect music download service, which was launched in May. The devices and the service will make Sony the latest to compete with Apple Computer's iPod and iTunes products. Sony's belated arrival compares poorly with its historical leadership position in the portable music player business, said Susan Kevorkian, an analyst with research firm IDC."<br /><br />Sweet! I like the industrial design. But can this media player really challenge the iPod? Sony still doesn't have the software to compliment its hardware product. In order for this device to succeed it will need top notch jukebox software and a well implemented online music store. Walkman NW-HD1 has neither.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.digitalmediathoughts.com/images/Sony-nw-hd-1.jpg" />

[entropy1980]

$400 and $500 And people say Apple is over priced!! Granted iPods ain't cheap but at least they have the mini at $250 which has been a big seller. I think at this point no one will catch iTunes...I mean almost 100 million songs no one is close to touching them they are to digital music what sony was when they came out with original walkman. Many try to copy but I think Apple now has the brand loyalty in their favor and it would take a miracle to overcome that or even blow it....

[Kent Pribbernow]

$400 and $500 And people say Apple is over priced!!

Yeah, it's strange that no one (besides Dell) has tried to attack Apple pricing. On the contrary, the competition seems to be trying to leapfrog iPod's premium pricing. :?

[dean_shan]

But keep in mind that the iPod mini is only 4 gigs. That's pretty expensive per gigabyte. That's $62.50 a gig for the iPod mini, $25 a gig for the NW-HD1.

[entropy1980]

But keep in mind that the iPod mini is only 4 gigs. That's pretty expensive per gigabyte. That's $62.50 a gig for the iPod mini, $25 a gig for the NW-HD1.Doesn't matter to a 13-year old TRL watching kid who sees celebs with said iPod and especially when you tell them the iPod is half as much... it doesn't matter how much it holds at that point... :)

[James Fee]

Both devices use Sony's ATRAC3 music format. Using desktop software included with the devices, MP3, WAV and WMA files can be converted to ATRAC3 and played on the players. The Network Walkman will hold up to 13,000 songs, while the Vaio Pocket will hold 26,000, according to Sony.
Uh, OK Sony. Like I'm going to convert all my files into ATRAC3. :roll:

At least Apple lets you play MP3.

[Zack Mahdavi]

Sony is really convinced that bring their "standard proprietary methods" to the mp3 player market will sell these days. Unfortunately, it won't work. It might have worked if Sony arrived early on with real iPod killers, but I think it's too late for them to compete with proprietary products and formats.

Then again, I could be wrong..

[Gary Sheynkman]

Both devices use Sony's ATRAC3 music format. Using desktop software included with the devices, MP3, WAV and WMA files can be converted to ATRAC3 and played on the players. The Network Walkman will hold up to 13,000 songs, while the Vaio Pocket will hold 26,000, according to Sony.
Uh, OK Sony. Like I'm going to convert all my files into ATRAC3. :roll:

At least Apple lets you play MP3.

I agree 100%

This is a total turnoff

[Jonathon Watkins]

Few more details at the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/3855745.stm).

Sony said its Network Walkman NW-HD1 would carry 13,000 songs and sell for less than $400 (£219) in the US. This compares with $499 (£274) for the highest capacity iPod which can store 10,000 songs. The device will be incompatible with other online stores and cannot play tunes in the popular MP3 format. It is slightly larger than a credit card and less than half an inch thick. Sony said the battery lasted 30 hours, at least three times longer than the iPod. It also promised shock-resistant technology that protected the hard drive if dropped. Launched to mark the 25th anniversary of the original Walkman cassette player, Sony said it had used advanced compression technology to pack more songs in a smaller storage space. It uses a 20-gigabyte hard-drive, compared with Apple's highest capacity 40 gigabyte models.

OK, 20Gb storage ,claimed more songs than the the 40Gb iPOD and uses a propriety format?????? Are they mad?
WHY would I want to abandon MP3 and get myself locked into Sony's propriety format? WHO would want to buy this????? :silly:

I am liking Sony less and less these days and stuff like this just puts me off buying *any* Sony products - seriously!

[James Fee]

WHO would want to buy this????? :silly:
These guys?

Sony Consumers (http://www.retropod.com/pictures.php?p=wink)?

[klinux]

At least no one is calling it an iPod killer. Too many of those products have came and gone without making a dent in iPod's sale, AFAIK.

- a biased but happy iPod owner

[Jonathon Watkins]

WHO would want to buy this????? :silly:
These guys?

Sony Consumers (http://www.retropod.com/pictures.php?p=wink)?

Says it all really doesn't it!

Fragmentation. Great. Sony's strategy. :roll:

Why can't Sony get behind widely supported standards like MP3, WMA, Ogg etc? They will never own the digital music market, so why limit their share of it and complicate things by introducing yet another standard? :x

Walled garden's just don't wash anymore - if they ever did.

[Suhit Gupta]

At least no one is calling it an iPod killer. Too many of those products have came and gone without making a dent in iPod's sale, AFAIK.
Of course Sony is aiming to rival the iTunes/iPod combination but clearly anyone that looks closely at both services realized that Sony's solution is not "killing" anything.

Suhit

[James Fee]

Of course Sony is aiming to rival the iTunes/iPod combination but clearly anyone that looks closely at both services realized that Sony's solution is not "killing" anything.

Suhit
Even Apple understands people use MP3...

[Felix Torres]

Walled garden's just don't wash anymore - if they ever did.

Uh, the iPod is a walled garden.
(or, as somebody said once: a roach motel for digital music.)

Or are you saying walled gardens only work for Apple?
(Which might be the case; obviously SONY doeesn't have an exec with a personal reality distortion zone to ensnare the media...)

Just curious.

SONY Connect 1.0 being crap doesn't preclude version 2 or 3 or 57 from eventually getting it right...
The game is young and SONY is, what? number one or two music company?
I wouldn't write them off so early in the game.

[James Fee]

Uh, the iPod is a walled garden.
(or, as somebody said once: a roach motel for digital music.)

It plays MP3s which the Sony doesn't.

Or are you saying walled gardens only work for Apple?
(Which might be the case; obviously SONY doeesn't have an exec with a personal reality distortion zone to ensnare the media...)

Before Apple put up their "wall", they had already sold tons of iPods. Sony is putting up the wall before they sell even a million.


SONY Connect 1.0 being crap doesn't preclude version 2 or 3 or 57 from eventually getting it right...

This is Sony we are talking about. The company that still thinks MD is a viable platform.

The game is young and SONY is, what? number one or two music company?
I wouldn't write them off so early in the game.
But Sony has never been able to leverage that into sales. If Sony had exclusives, maybe they could get somthing going, but it is iTumes that has the power at least this summer.

[Felix Torres]

But Sony has never been able to leverage that into sales. If Sony had exclusives, maybe they could get somthing going, but it is iTumes that has the power at least this summer.

Good qualifier there. :D
This summer.
That is my whole point.

Folks are way to eager to crown a king based on one lap of a 500 mile race, even though most of the contenders haven't even lined up.

And yes, SONY has never taken advantage of their inherent advantages; they have always been too hobbled by the NIH-syndrome.
Doesn't mean they *always* will, though.
Before 2002 Sony never had a movie that raked in more than $300 million worldwide.
Then they did Spider-man and hit $800 million.
Now they're going for a cool billion with the sequel.

People and companies learn.
Sooner or later stupid giants stop being stupid or die.

SONY has a vast array of weapons they *could* use to make ATRAC relevant. At a minimum, they can add a second cd with pre-ripped ATRAC songs on each CD they sell.

Will they do so? The Magic 8 ball says: future cloudy, unclear...

Maybe SONY will keep on fighting with one hand tied behind their back.
Maybe.
But its not a given.
The ATRAC-only policy is *currently* a minus.
But the hardware and battery life is nice.
The street price is likely to be bearable ($300 or so?) and SONY Does not lack for distribution channels.
If they ever got serious about promoting ATRAC they can have a billion tracks out there in a year.
Big if.
But I'm not writing them off just yet.
The race doesn't end this summer.
Heck, it hasn't even started...
All we've seen to date is the qualifiers.
I don't think we should crown a winner at the Indy 500 just on the basis of qualification times (to stay with the racing metaphor) so lets not get carried away.


Me, long-term, I'm still betting on Rio and Creative.
With Samsung, Archos, and Sony in the next tier. :twisted:

Honda and Toyota always outsell BMW, after all...
(enough automotive metaphors, I promise)

The leader this summer is just that, the leader *this* summer.

Doesn't mean the gods have given the market to them in perpetuity.
Lets wait and see what the competitors qualification times look like *after* they run their laps...

[James Fee]

Good qualifier there. :D
This summer.
That is my whole point.

Yea, I still believe that iTunes will continue to lead, but we still don't have the hPod and MSN's store (or even the next generation iPods).

Folks are way to eager to crown a king based on one lap of a 500 mile race, even though most of the contenders haven't even lined up.

Well, I see only one contender at this point. MSN. Napster and the others have made no dent into iTunes' lead. Sony is the only record company that would even care about having its own store. I'm sure WB and other are happy to sell their songs on any service. At this point, iTunes has withstood many assults without having suffered much. Sure they are missing out on a huge market, but being able to put DRM music on an iPod is a great market to be in.

Well sure, I guess Apple could start selling more Macs too...
[quote]
Before 2002 Sony never had a movie that raked in more than $300 million worldwide.
Then they did Spider-man and hit $800 million.
Now they're going for a cool billion with the sequel.

I do think they have a better chance in Movies than music, but we are still left how to get those titles to the consumer and what they will play them on. Microsoft controls this and will probably become the dominate player in video no matter what anyone else does.

Like I'm going to pay money to see a movie in MPEG-4. :roll:

People and companies learn.
Sooner or later stupid giants stop being stupid or die.

Lets see, Betamax, MD, MemoryStick, ATRAC. Heck there are even more.

SONY has a vast array of weapons they *could* use to make ATRAC relevant. At a minimum, they can add a second cd with pre-ripped ATRAC songs on each CD they sell.
Sure and WB could do the same thing with either WMA or AAC. RIAA members just can't seem to get a clue on how to take back what is theirs. They seem to be content letting the Apple's of the world do it for them. I can't imagine why.

[cmchavez]

Both devices use Sony's ATRAC3 music format. Using desktop software included with the devices, MP3, WAV and WMA files can be converted to ATRAC3 and played on the players. The Network Walkman will hold up to 13,000 songs, while the Vaio Pocket will hold 26,000, according to Sony.
Uh, OK Sony. Like I'm going to convert all my files into ATRAC3. :roll:

At least Apple lets you play MP3.

Sony needs to team up with M$ to support wma format. Until then, this thing won't even come close to the iPod. :cry:

[klinux]

Before 2002 Sony never had a movie that raked in more than $300 million worldwide.
Then they did Spider-man and hit $800 million.
Now they're going for a cool billion with the sequel.

Is that suppose to be a reassuring statistic? Two years and two hit movies? Sure, one movie can be a blockbuster but that does not save the dozen or two that are stinkers and cost them millions more.

I still have great hopes for Sony and am rooting for competition but I think iPod is a battle Sony has lost and will continue to lose for the next 2-3 years.

[Montego]

Man, what's with all of the MD hatred here? You know, it is a world economy out there, and MD kicks butt everywhere but in the U.S. (alhtough sales gave been climbing once Sony added downloading and ripping to MD 2 years ago.)

I thought this would be a place where users of ALL devices could talk about stuff without their personal choices being hammered. You don't have to like Sony or their products, but ease up on the vitriol. There are LOTS of Sony owners who are happy with their MDs and Memorysticks. Sorry if we don't meet your approval.

[Jonathon Watkins]

I thought this would be a place where users of ALL devices could talk about stuff without their personal choices being hammered. You don't have to like Sony or their products, but ease up on the vitriol. There are LOTS of Sony owners who are happy with their MDs and Memorysticks. Sorry if we don't meet your approval.

Sure, but if Sony stuck to the same standards everyone else used then the market would be that much larger and devices just that much cheaper. If Sony generally made devices that were compatible and non-proprietary then sure. But they don't and until they do I will avoid Sony products and recommend other to do the same. It's not a case of bashing Sony users, it's a case of letting Sony know that their closed garden model is not appreciated or welcome. It is a very good sign that Sony put a CF slot on their recent camera (as well as having a Memory stick slot). If they keep that trend up and move away from their proprietary past, then I'm sure they would own a larger price of a larger pie.

[Montego]

Sure, but if Sony stuck to the same standards everyone else used then the market would be that much larger and devices just that much cheaper.

I agree totally. I like Sony products but realize as a company they are far from perfect. Case in point is the new HI-MD format. While you can store data, and even PCM sound files as well as ATRAC there is still no support for MP3. But, given what I said about the world economy, lots of other manufacturers produce MD units in Asia and Europe, so maybe Sony doesn't consider it a problem anywhere but the U.S. But yeah, I would like MP3 support. Maybe having PCM files is a sign that MP3 may be in the next generation a year from now.

As far as memory cards, I've just never understood the issue. I have devices that use MS, MMC, SD, and CF. It is all the same to me. I buy the device I like best, I don't base my decision on what kind of memory card it uses. I'm considering the Olympus C-8080 which uses XD...but I never hear complaints about that format.

I guess the link in this thread to the picture of the "typical Sony consumer" sort of hacked me off, as well as statements that Minidisc is a dead format...far from it.

[Jonathon Watkins]

As far as memory cards, I've just never understood the issue. I have devices that use MS, MMC, SD, and CF. It is all the same to me. I buy the device I like best, I don't base my decision on what kind of memory card it uses. I'm considering the Olympus C-8080 which uses XD...but I never hear complaints about that format.

Point is, I don't buy a device with media slots, unless they are SD or CF slots. I can swap my SD and CF cards at will them, without thinking that it would be really good if my 1Gb CF card could be used instead of my 512Mb SD card or my 256Mb MMC or 128Mb MS card. As it is, I have a few CF and SD cards that work in just about every device. It's just simpler and easier to manage - as well a cheaper. I can use my 1Gb CF card in my PPC or my camera. Nice and simple. Multiple incompatible cards would be horrible for me. :x

I guess the link in this thread to the picture of the "typical Sony consumer" sort of hacked me off, as well as statements that Minidisc is a dead format...far from it.

OK, fair point about a cheep crack. :wink: I was personally refering to the kind of person that bought a digital media device that would only play a proorotiry standard of music that could olny be obtained from Sony. Heck, I have a Sony TV, so I wasn't making a general statement. :wink:

[bjornkeizers]

I would never, ever buy these. Proprietary format? More expensive then the Ipod? Sony? Where do I sign up?!?!?!?!?! /sarcasm.

When will they finally understand that ****ing over your customer isn't exactly good business? I don't want a proprietary format, and I *will* punish the company pushing it because of that. Sony doesn't offer my anything that I can't get in the Ipod - in fact, they offer me less at a higher price with more inconvenience... Yeah, I'm sure people will be lining up around the block to get one.


This is Sony we are talking about. The company that still thinks MD is a viable platform.


True. They still sell these crap things. Well, not exactly sell - they offer, but nobody wants them. I feel genuinely sorry for the people who got screwed buying MD or MD media. They should have quit selling the damn things three years ago. Stop flogging the dead horse guys.

There's actually a profession that - I suspect - is singlehandedly keeping the MD line in business: journalists. I'm a journalist myself, and we only use MD. We all have MD recorders and all our equipment is MD capable. God only knows why, but it's the truth. I have an MD recorder, but it is a Sharp. I sure as **** don't want to keep them in business.