Apple Throws Down the Gauntlet, Picks it Up, Smacks Zune in the Face

[Jason Dunn]

Today isn't a good day to be a Zune fan, that's for sure. Why? Because Apple unleashed a new wave of iPods today, and they're every bit as impressive as I was fearing they'd be. This was no simple product refresh with memory bumps and price drops - no, this is a whole new generation of iPods.<br /><br /><img border="1" alt="" src="http://images.thoughtsmedia.com/resizer/thumbs/size/500/zt/auto/1189022722.usr1.jpg" /><br /><br />As I followed <a target="_blank" href="http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/05/steve-jobs-live-apples-the-beat-goes-on-special-event/">Engadget's excellent coverage</a>, I was blown away by what I was seeing. Here are the very brief highlights of where the iPod lineup now stands and what I find most significant about each one:<br /><ul> <li><strong>iPod Shuffle:</strong> not much changed here other than new colours. Same design, which works really well for the target market, and the price point is $79 USD.</li> <li><strong>iPod Nano:</strong> a two inch display running 320 x 240 resolution. The pixel density is off the charts here, which means amazingly smooth and crisp text, images, and video. It can now play games like the bigger iPods can, and is available in five colours. Coverflow support has been added, and it will give you 24 hours of audio and 5 hours of video on a single charge. The price? 4 GB for $149 USD, and 8 GB for $199.</li> <li><strong>iPod Classic:</strong> This is currently what the Zune is competing against. The new iPod 80 GB Classic boats 30 hours of audio playback, 6 hours of video. They have a 160 GB version that boosts that number to 40 hours of audio and 7 house of video playback. The price? $249 USD for the 80 GB version and $349 for the 160 GB version. The body of the iPod Classic is described as having a &quot;full metal design&quot;, and they're even thinner than before.<br /> </li> <li><strong>iPod Touch:</strong> This is an iPhone without the phone. 3.5&quot; wide screen display, 480 x 320 resolution, 8mm thick, full multi-touch interface, 802.11 b/g WiFi, and most of the apps from the iPhone: calendar, clock, calculator, contacts, YouTube, Safari web browser, etc. No mention of an email client. 22 hours of audio, 5 hours of video. And the cherry on top? iTunes WiFi Music Store - that's right, full mobile browsing and purchasing of iTunes music. It downloads the song to the iPod Touch, then when you sync it pushes them onto the desktop.</li></ul>So that's the new iPod line - what can the Zune team do to counteract that? If the <a target="_blank" href="http://www.zunethoughts.com/news/show/22962/could-these-be-the-second-generation-zunes.html">rumours about the upcoming Zunes</a> are to be believed, then I have to admit that I'm not hopeful just based on those specifications alone. The Zune team is full of smart people though, and J. Allard isn't to be underestimated, so I hope they have something amazing up their sleeve. If they don't, and this holiday season we see a 4 GB Zune without much more under the hood...then the Zune is in for a very hard road indeed.

[andre]

well said, if my zune ever breaks than my most hated company (because of the obnoxious apple zealots) will have some dollars coming from me.

over one year with just marginal updates like improved shuffling! the zune team has spoken with their behavior and its loud and clear.

if ipods supported *.wma....

[Rocco Augusto]

We have a non activated iPhone floating around the office for testing new sites we develop on the iPhone's Safari browser. While I would never own an iPhone as a phone, it is almost appealing enough to own as a standalone music player/tablet. Hopefully Microsoft has something awe inspiring in the works, if not I have no idea how they plan on staying in the game.

[Sage]

I was actually kinda disappointed with the iPod refresh. I was hoping for a device with the capacity of the new iPod classic (160GB is awesome!) with the features and screen of the iPod touch. If they ever make such a device, I'll buy it without hesitation.

Did you notice they also lowered the price of the iPhone to $399?

The Zune sure is up against some tough competition.

[Jason Dunn]

over one year with just marginal updates like improved shuffling! the zune team has spoken with their behavior and its loud and clear.

Indeed, it's rather frustrating - we know they have something coming soon, so I'll be waiting to see what they deliver...but it better be good in a number of ways or the Zune will be a footnote in history.

[Jason Dunn]

I was hoping for a device with the capacity of the new iPod classic (160GB is awesome!) with the features and screen of the iPod touch.

I suspect that the combination of a device with a hard drive and a big screen + WiFi would be bigger, thicker, and have worse battery life than Apple would want to release right now. That's just a guess though.

[mgullotta]

Wow! Zune is in big trouble. How could they launch anything right now, unless it is comparable, it is going to seem silly.

The biggest announcement is they totally one up-ed MS on their Wifi with the announcement at starbucks. I guess the only way they can come back is with positioning their zune somewhere above the iPod classic, but below the iPod touch. Thats to show that they have more features than the classic, while maybe not the awesome features of the touch, but with more hard drive capacity. Then price it right.

[Jason Dunn]

The biggest announcement is they totally one up-ed MS on their Wifi with the announcement at starbucks.

Yeah, you think so? I think that feature is "neat", but I don't think it's anywhere near as killer as the WiFi iTunes store. The Starbucks rollout is REALLY slow...they're going to have it in a couple of cities by the end of 2007, and a few more in 2008, but it doesn't appear to be going wide-spread very quickly (which is puzzling).

[Chris Gohlke]

And suddenly I have buyers remorse regarding my Zune.

I'm thinking like Rocco, the touch could finally be the small but usable browser you can carry in your pocket.

[Janak Parekh]

Yeah, you think so? I think that feature is "neat", but I don't think it's anywhere near as killer as the WiFi iTunes store. The Starbucks rollout is REALLY slow...they're going to have it in a couple of cities by the end of 2007, and a few more in 2008, but it doesn't appear to be going wide-spread very quickly (which is puzzling). It occurred to me that this might be the tip of the iceberg. What if other retailers come to Apple and try to strike the same deal? Apple tends to be closed, so maybe I'm just thinking too far ahead, but it could be big. (Also, I'm guessing Apple/Starbucks need to install special computers/software in the stores to coordinate the music playback.)

I'm thinking like Rocco, the touch could finally be the small but usable browser you can carry in your pocket. As an iPhone owner, I can tell you, Safari is an excellent browser. It's the first browser I have bothered to use extensively on a mobile device.

I was actually kinda disappointed with the iPod refresh. I was hoping for a device with the capacity of the new iPod classic (160GB is awesome!) with the features and screen of the iPod touch. If they ever make such a device, I'll buy it without hesitation. Well, as always, Apple left a few holes open. There are quite a few people desiring of an iPod touch-esque device with a hard disk. I suspect the iPod touch/iPhone platform will never go there, as Apple seems to have settled on flash memory for their OS X-based platform. My concern is that Microsoft never quite capitalized on the holes Apple left in their previous lineup, and now Apple has closed a bunch of them, and I don't know if they'll capitalize the few that are left.

Quite frankly, what I don't get is why didn't Microsoft release a Wi-Fi store before now? This is nothing unique nor innovative, but everyone except Sandisk seems to be hanging around waiting for Apple to do it. Why why why? :confused:

--janak

[ZappCatt]

It occurred to me that this might be the tip of the iceberg. What if other retailers come to Apple and try to strike the same deal? Apple tends to be closed, so maybe I'm just thinking too far ahead, but it could be big. (Also, I'm guessing Apple/Starbucks need to install special computers/software in the stores to coordinate the music playback.)

--janak

I am not sure how hard this will be. I believe all the Starbucks just play the Sirrius/XM "Starbucks" channel..so all they would need to do is get the playlist and have it syncronized, right?

[Janak Parekh]

I am not sure how hard this will be. I believe all the Starbucks just play the Sirrius/XM "Starbucks" channel..so all they would need to do is get the playlist and have it syncronized, right? No clue - but why would they take so long otherwise? :confused:

--janak

[Adam Krebs]

Typically I'm quite worried when Apple announces this many new products. But even Gizmodo (known for their fanboyism) had to admit that they were basically just updates (and that the iPod Classic is basically a bigger Nano with a hard drive). I don't see anything too killer that they didn't have before, like the Touch is basically the iPhone without the phone.

Sure, pretty much everything was leaked beforehand (Apple's success is catching up to them), but I just felt that this didn't have the flair of other Stevenotes.

But yes, I am in agreement with the rest of the commenters here that the Zune has to get moving, and fast. I can only hope and pray that the reason we haven't been getting real firmware updates has to do with some incredible killer feature, but even I'm skeptical that this is the case. I hope MS proves me wrong (I wasn't a fan of the original Xbox, but I think the 360 is just amazing), and completely one-ups Apple, with wireless downloading, PC sync, etc.

It's funny to think how Steve Jobs made fun of Microsoft's "many flavors of Vista" (the "business", "home", and "ultimate" versions of OSX were all the same thing), while he is now putting out four new versions of his flagship product.

Please, Microsoft, prove me wrong. Show me amazing things that you can do with software on your current player, and have the second model be a mere upgraded hardware. Either that, or give me my money back.

[Rocco Augusto]

As an iPhone owner, I can tell you, Safari is an excellent browser. It's the first browser I have bothered to use extensively on a mobile device.

I prefer the Nokia Internet Tablets for mobile browsing (Opera browser and ridiculous 800ishx480ish screen res), but this is only because I find myself constantly rewriting code to get it to work in Safari. :(

Typically I'm quite worried when Apple announces this many new products. But even Gizmodo (known for their fanboyism) had to admit that they were basically just updates (and that the iPod Classic is basically a bigger Nano with a hard drive). I don't see anything too killer that they didn't have before, like the Touch is basically the iPhone without the phone.

Yeah, I was a little disappointed to see that the new touch device looked EXACTLY like the iPhone. If I was an iPhone user, I would be ticked off as the device looks great for tablet use but shady for phone use (though I'm interested to hear what you think of the phone functions Janak!)

[Janak Parekh]

I prefer the Nokia Internet Tablets for mobile browsing (Opera browser and ridiculous 800ishx480ish screen res), but this is only because I find myself constantly rewriting code to get it to work in Safari. :( Except the Nokia Internet Tablets aren't really pocketable. I like how I can sit down on a couch, pull the device out and start using it. That, and the touch+zoom interface is far superior for scrolling/browsing. (At least, IMHO.) Re constantly rewriting code: I'll take your word for it, but Safari is at least decently standards compliant. Compare that to coding for PIE. ;)

Yeah, I was a little disappointed to see that the new touch device looked EXACTLY like the iPhone. If I was an iPhone user, I would be ticked off as the device looks great for tablet use but shady for phone use (though I'm interested to hear what you think of the phone functions Janak!) Re looking the same: Apple prides itself on its brand and its iconic design. In media/portable devices, Apple has two iconic designs: the click wheel and the iPhone/iPod touch multitouch device. It doesn't particularly bother me, although I think Apple should eventually introduce some color into the form factor.

Re the phone functions of the iPhone: this probably isn't the best place in the world to discuss it, but briefly, the iPhone's phone interface lies somewhere between the Smartphone and the Pocket PC Phone in functionality, ease-of-use, and experience. Its biggest problems, by far, are the inability to do freeform searches (you must scroll/jump the list in the order it is listed) and the questionable ergonomics (earpiece is flat, no tactile feedback). Apart from those two, I find the in-call interface far superior to any phone I've ever used (including the Treo), syncing with Macs is simple and reliable, visual voicemail is very handy, and the device is surprisingly one-handable (although you must be looking at it). Feel free to ask if you want more detail.

--janak

[Dyvim]

The biggest announcement is they totally one up-ed MS on their Wifi with the announcement at starbucks.

I'm with Jason- I didn't think this was all that. I was hoping they were going to offer seamless (i.e. no logging in) free WiFi web browsing to all iPod Touch and iPhone users at Starbucks (sort of a free T-Mobile HotSpot deal). Now that would have been killer. But buy the song that's currently playing at Starbucks? Ho hum!

[Dyvim]

I suspect that the combination of a device with a hard drive and a big screen + WiFi would be bigger, thicker, and have worse battery life than Apple would want to release right now.

I personally suspect that Apple really wants you to buy at least 2 new higher end iPods: an iPod classic with a big hard drive and also an iPod Touch (or better yet an iPhone). I bet if they made a large HDD iPodTouch, a lot of people that would buy both an iPod Classic and an iPod Touch, would just by the HDD-based Touch.

And what's up with the "iPod Classic" name? It's like the boys at Apple got together with the boys at Microsoft to come up with new names for their respective platforms. Wonder when the "iPod Standard" will come out?

[USArcher]

The crazy thing is that Microsoft had a product that fills the void that iPod Touch fills. It was called PocketPC.

All Microsoft needs to do is take Windows Mobile and put it on Zune, add Zune software and a great interface and voila you've got yourself something that more than competes with iPod Touch.

[ucfgrad93]

Quite frankly, what I don't get is why didn't Microsoft release a Wi-Fi store before now?

That is an excellent question. In my opinion, it was the one thing the Zune had over the iPod, and Apple beat them to the punch!

Zune is in a world of hurt right now. There are so many choices in the iPod lineup. And after 9 months (or more?!?) there is still only one option for the Zune.

There is some good news for Zune today, the price was dropped to $199. ;)

http://playlistmag.com/news/2007/09/05/zune/index.php

[Janak Parekh]

The crazy thing is that Microsoft had a product that fills the void that iPod Touch fills. It was called PocketPC. Sadly, Microsoft has never taken this market seriously for media. The best media player they released was the original WMP4 for Pocket PC 2000, and it's been downhill from there. It's a shame, because they could have owned this market years ago. Instead, they pushed forward with their failed PMC initiative. In the meantime, Pocket PC's media capabilities continue to languish.

Apple, on the other hand, focused on making the media software excellent on the iPhone. It's remarkable what a nicely-written piece of software can do. Microsoft's Zune team has recognized this, too (well, at least on the Zune itself). Maybe they should force the Zune team to give the Windows Mobile team a talking-to.

--janak

[Crystal3]

MS is certainly not commenting. They're own VP gives Zune a B-.

Do they actually listen to the consumers? Do they pay a mote of attention to what we're asking for and have been asking for for 10 months? Surely, they must realized that some Zuners are actual adults that use mp3 players extensively, and would like audiobooks, podcasts separated from their music.

At $149, the new 4G "Fatty" Nano is looking pretty damn good.

[mar2k]

My suggestion for the Zune team:

Re-position the Zune as THE mobile device to have if your a Windows user...the perfect companion for Windows Media Center...yes, I know you dropped support for Portable Media Center, but now all the hardware has one design and is not getting licensed to third parties.

Overhaul the interface to look more like Vista - Aero Glass. Media Center is now in every copy of Vista Premium and Ultimate. Make it seem like the perfect extension of our Windows desktop. Yes, make it work with MCE 2005 just as well but why not give your latest OS a sleek companion that everyone wants. Native DVR-MS file support alone would get people to switch to Zune in high numbers. Why pay Apple $1.99 a show that you can record in MCE and watch on your Zune...

Also, HUGE possibilites for Sideshow with this concept - the new Zune could have Sideshow hooks so its giving you useful information regarding new emails etc while its sitting in the dock next to your monitor or better yet while your elsewhere in your house over WiFi.

MCE remote control? How about Zune...........

I think you see where I am going with this....

[DaveLG526]

I still use my Zune. I like the FM radio but I have never been able to find anyone else to WiFi with. For all I know the WiFi doesn't even function.

My Zune media subscription is up in three months and then the Zune heads for eBay. MS has not listened to the comments of many users. The WiFi is uselessly crippled. The podcast support is awful. The web site is still slow and the music genre messed up and illogical.

Simple enhancements like a clock have not even been added.

I find that 8-10 GByes of songs are about all I want with about 3-4GB actually active.

I am disappointed in MS because they could have made something very good.

[Rocco Augusto]

Except the Nokia Internet Tablets aren't really pocketable. I like how I can sit down on a couch, pull the device out and start using it. That, and the touch+zoom interface is far superior for scrolling/browsing. (At least, IMHO.) Re constantly rewriting code: I'll take your word for it, but Safari is at least decently standards compliant. Compare that to coding for PIE. ;)

I hate writing code for PIE as well. I am glad that Safari can render a standards compliant page with the best of them, but I am spending way to much time rewriting older clients javascript code at work as everyone is hoping on the "most have a working iphone optimized site" bandwagon.

As for the touch interface, I just can't do it. I am constantly cleaning my current handset because I can't stand smudging and fingerprints, it is like nails on a chalkboard to me. The thought of owning one of those device and not using something to prevent all of that smudging makes me shudder. This is why I love my Nokia tablet for browsing, I don't have to touch the screen with my finger :)

[Phuul]

Ok apart from one or two people commenting most of you seem to be doing some valid comparisons between the existing Zune and the new iPods.

I'm really trying to figure out what the issue really is with Apple's Media Event today. Yes they announced some very sexy hardware that will be selling today or in the next month. Yes they have a iPod touch that is basically an iPhone without the phone, speaker, Google Maps, Mail, and some other things that I haven't figured out. Oh and now there seems to be one iPhone model, the 8GB for $400 and the 4GB seems to be discontinued once they sell all of them for $300.

My questions are:

Are you happy with your Zune? Does it do what you expected it to when you bought it?

If the answer is yes then what is the problem? If the answer is no then I'm sorry. If the answer is that it doesn't do what you hoped it would do after updates... well I'm sure you can commiserate with some iPhone buyers that are complaining about the price drop.

Beyond that, wishing that Microsoft would do something is about as effective as wishing Apple would do something. Oh we all want a tweak to this or that, but each company is going to do what they want to in the end.

In both cases buying a product from a company for what it might do in the future is pretty damn silly. Buy something for what it does. If you get added feature in the future then bonus. Just don't expect them.

[Sage]

I prefer the Nokia Internet Tablets for mobile browsing (Opera browser and ridiculous 800ishx480ish screen res), but this is only because I find myself constantly rewriting code to get it to work in Safari. :(

I once borrowed a friend's Nokia N800 for a couple of weeks. It was great. The screen was a great resolution for web-browsing and the battery life was very good too. The best part for me was how easy it was to teether to my phone. It was literally a 5 second job over Bluetooth.

WiFi is nice, but flat-rate HSDPA is better for mobility. I couldn't see myself browsing the net over WiFi on an iPod touch, since I tend to have a laptop anywhere that I have a WiFi network that I can access for free.

[zuneSceptic]

Today isn't a good day to be a Zune fan, that's for sure.

Has there ever been a good day to be a Zune fan? I cannot remember one...

[Janak Parekh]

As for the touch interface, I just can't do it. I am constantly cleaning my current handset because I can't stand smudging and fingerprints, it is like nails on a chalkboard to me. I thought I'd have the same problem, but after a day, I stopped noticing it. You don't notice it in most angles with the device off, and you definitely don't notice it when the screen is on. What I like is it makes scrolling and zooming so incredibly responsive, compared to scroll wheels or directional pads. IMHO, there's no comparison. Of course, YMMV.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

I couldn't see myself browsing the net over WiFi on an iPod touch, since I tend to have a laptop anywhere that I have a WiFi network that I can access for free. I thought the same thing, but I've found that if I'm watching television at home and some interesting factoid comes on, it's easier for me to pull the unit out of my pocket and do a quick Google search than to go into the next room, retrieve the laptop, and come back. That, and I don't have a huge device sitting on my lap. ;) That's part of the appeal of both the N800 and Apple's devices, IMHO.

--janak

[David Tucker]

I thought I'd have the same problem, but after a day, I stopped noticing it. You don't notice it in most angles with the device off, and you definitely don't notice it when the screen is on. What I like is it makes scrolling and zooming so incredibly responsive, compared to scroll wheels or directional pads. IMHO, there's no comparison. Of course, YMMV.

--janak

Eh..I have a Nintendo DS and I notice those fingerprints quite well. I'd hate that. I constantly wipe the DS down.

[Janak Parekh]

Eh..I have a Nintendo DS and I notice those fingerprints quite well. I'd hate that. I constantly wipe the DS down. You mean the bottom screen, right? I haven't played much with a DS, but how bright is that screen? The iPhone's screen is very bright, so fingerprints are indeed unnoticeable while it's on, except on the borders. Oh, and I've found keeping the phone in the pocket rubs it enough to get the fingerprints off. (But again, YMMV.)

--janak

[David Tucker]

Extremely bright

[DaveLG526]

Are you happy with your Zune? Does it do what you expected it to when you bought it? If the answer is yes then what is the problem? If the answer is no then I'm sorry. If the answer is that it doesn't do what you hoped it would do after updates... well I'm sure you can commiserate with some iPhone buyers that are complaining about the price drop.

Yes it does what it was suppose to. The only reason I got the Zune was the included FM radio. At the time Apple didn;t have an add on FM player that was acceptable to me. MS also made comments that the Zune was upgradeable so there were features I felt they would add via firmware updates.

Now though I think I will sell the Zune and buy and iPod of some verison

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

[Jason Dunn]

Sadly, Microsoft has never taken this market seriously for media...Instead, they pushed forward with their failed PMC initiative. In the meantime, Pocket PC's media capabilities continue to languish.

Indeed. The Pocket PC and Smartphone devices could have been GREAT for media, but Microsoft never put any effort into them. The PMC could have been a great platform, but everyone gave up too soon - the second generation Toshiba Gigabeat was an awesome device, but by the time it came out everyone except for Toshiba had given up on the market.

[The Overman]

Are we reading the same coverage about the same iPod products?
Really?

The new line sucks! The only message I got from that was: Apple is only interested in the iPhone and the iPod will get the minimum investiment and benefit from whatever leftovers might be lying around after they are done with the iPhone development. It's pathetic.

(for an even harsher point of view on this whole iPod release, see http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/)

First things first: technology evolves. Things get smaller and hard drives bigger. No kudos for a natural evolution for Apple.

Break down by device:
iPod classic: no investment here whatsoever. Stick the latest HD on the market into the device, cram things closer inside and that's it. No more battery life or anything else that would show that Apple spent more than 5 mins thinking about it.

iPod nano: It fixes what should have been there from the begining, which is video playing (every other flash player has). And breaks what it had going for it, which is looks. Sincerelly, the "fatty" is really badly proportioned and lucks dumb. It's so ugly that the mock ups that leaked the day before on Engadget were not even taken seriously...

iPod Touch: That's the iPhone. A dumbed down version of that. That's all. So afterthought that the home screen, with all that empty space, looks really ridiculous. It's the clearest sign that Apple has eyes only to the iPhone lineage. Don't get fooled with the WiFi being "more capable" than Zune's. It was simply easier for them to not touch what was already done on the iPhone.

I'm one of those that has some complaints about Zune WiFi, but I recognize that what they wanted there is a completely different experience from being simply a stripped down browser. They've got that already a few years ago with the Pocket PC (I used to own a Compaq iPaq with WiFi and touch screen, that also played songs and video. No news here).

The whole over-the-air store is a good thing, for sure. Not taking that away. Being able to download songs anywhere is good, but it's arguably better for Apple itself, which will make money out of impulse buyers.

I'd much rather have something like what Zune could potentially give me, with friends sending me their songs and, if we both have ZunePass, no need to sync or buy those from anywhere. See, Zune scenario, if fully developed, would be very empowering for the users, whereas Apple's is just another way for them to make a buck out of the customers.

Too bad that NONE of the previously 100 million iPods have WiFi ;)

Besides, there's no reason for Zune to not implement that sometime in the future. I'll take a full sharing experience first, please...

I completely disagree with ZuneThoughs on this one:
Apple blinked. There's no better time for being a Zune user than now.

[David Tucker]

Indeed. The Pocket PC and Smartphone devices could have been GREAT for media, but Microsoft never put any effort into them. The PMC could have been a great platform, but everyone gave up too soon - the second generation Toshiba Gigabeat was an awesome device, but by the time it came out everyone except for Toshiba had given up on the market.

To be fair, Microsoft has focused on Windows Mobile being an enterprise level solution. With, what, 20 million devices out there running it, that's nothing to sniff at.

Would they have done better to concentrate on teh media aspect? Maybe. But it would have taken a total redesign. Which supposedly is underway anyway.

[Janak Parekh]

To be fair, Microsoft has focused on Windows Mobile being an enterprise level solution. With, what, 20 million devices out there running it, that's nothing to sniff at. I don't think anyone's questioning Microsoft's targeting the enterprise. But I'm not convinced they couldn't take a better two-pronged strategy towards this. As Jason implies, PMC was a consumer-media-oriented-CE platform that could have been construed as a "Pocket PC for media". In my opinion, they locked PMC far too down; I would have preferred the PMC UI ported over to Pocket PC, enabling the creation of media-centric Pocket PCs far simpler than what OEMs had to do.

--janak

[Damion Chaplin]

Shoot, if MS had just encouraged vendors to put hard drives in Pocket PCs, I would never have looked at a stand-alone PMP in the first place. Of course now we have the HP 'Travel Companion', but it's way too little way too late.

Give me a Pocket PC with a 30GB HD and a Zune-like interface (much like the MCE interface running on top of Windows) and I'll never look at another PMP again...

[Jason Dunn]

Overhaul the interface to look more like Vista - Aero Glass. Media Center is now in every copy of Vista Premium and Ultimate. Make it seem like the perfect extension of our Windows desktop...Native DVR-MS file support alone would get people to switch to Zune in high numbers.

Those are some cool ideas - I agree that the Zune could be a great companion to Media Center, if only the Zune team would get on board...

[Jason Dunn]

Are you happy with your Zune? Does it do what you expected it to when you bought it? If the answer is yes then what is the problem?

Many of us, myself included, were hoping (and this hope was fuelled by the Zune team themselves talking about how important the Zune's ability to update was going to be) that the Zune would be improved over time - that the wireless feature, which was essentially useless right out of the box, would be enhanced to be, well, useful. None of those updates happened, and hence you have some disappointed Zune owners.

Yes, it still plays music and videos and shows pictures - but it has the capabilities to do so much more, and Microsoft didn't capitalize on that.

[Jason Dunn]

MS is certainly not commenting. They're own VP gives Zune a B-.

I'll give them credit where credit is due: at least a B- is an honest grade and they didn't pretend the Zune is an A+ product...

[possmann]

Many of us, myself included, were hoping (and this hope was fuelled by the Zune team themselves talking about how important the Zune's ability to update was going to be) that the Zune would be improved over time - that the wireless feature, which was essentially useless right out of the box, would be enhanced to be, well, useful. None of those updates happened, and hence you have some disappointed Zune owners.

Yes, it still plays music and videos and shows pictures - but it has the capabilities to do so much more, and Microsoft didn't capitalize on that.

Well said Jason!

Here is to hoping that the Zune team gets more on track and learns from the Windows Mobile Team's initial failures related to it's original "battle" for the PDA space with Palm (I still get my PocketPC called a Palm - grrr).

REAL wireless would be great
Better Resolution, Battery Life and Thinner device
Connectivity to Vista - take the same approach as the XBOX360 did - use the Zune as a device that can be extended to..., Vista, Zune, Mobile, XBOX360 - all should be SEAMLESSLY able to transfer media between...

Now THAT would be coool

[Macguy59]

The new line sucks! http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/)



You lost me at fakesteve

[The Overman]

You lost me at fakesteve

Nah, give the guy some credit. His posts are most of the time very funny. Even if he seems like he wants to fluff Apple's stocks sometimes (I'm guessing he has quite a few of those in his portfolio), and even me being the complete Zune fanboy that I proudly am, I can still enjoy his writting and the jokes he cracks.

[joesmith]

Yet another crippling bombshell hit the
beleaguered Zune community today when recently IDC
confirmed that the Zune accounts for less than a
fraction of 1 percent of all Digital Audio Players. Coming
on the heels of the latest C|Net survey which
plainly states that the Zune has lost even more
market share, this news serves to reinforce what
we've known all along. The Zune market is
collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly
exemplified by falling dead the other day at
Apple new iPods.

You don't need to be a Gates to predict the Zune's
future. The handwriting is on the wall: the Zune
faces a bleak future. In fact, there won't be
any future at all for the Zune because the Zune is
dying. Things are looking very bad for the Zune.
As many of us are already aware, the Zune
continues to lose market share. Red ink flows
like a river of blood. Microsoft is the most
beleaguered of them all, having recently sold
off its Zune business to China.

[Jason Dunn]

Thanks for making your first post a great one The Overman - I always appreciate good commentary, even if I don't always agree with it. ;)

iPod classic: no investment here whatsoever. Stick the latest HD on the market into the device, cram things closer inside and that's it.

You're right, it's a slow evolution here, but the iPod is already hugely successful, and offering 160 GB of storage for only $349 while still being a bit thinner than the Zune? That's impressive and makes the Zune look kind of bad in comparison - we'll see how thick that 80 GB Zune is, but if it's not a fair bit thinner than the current Zune, I'd say Microsoft isn't trying hard enough.

iPod nano: It fixes what should have been there from the begining, which is video playing (every other flash player has). And breaks what it had going for it, which is looks. Sincerelly, the "fatty" is really badly proportioned and lucks dumb.

I'm kind of mixed on the Nano...on one hand I'm blown away by a 2" screen with QVGA resolution, but that's REALLY tiny and watching videos or looking at photos. I agree that the original Nano looked more stylish than this one, but I haven't seen on in person so maybe I'll like it.

iPod Touch: That's the iPhone. A dumbed down version of that. That's all. So afterthought that the home screen, with all that empty space, looks really ridiculous.

I have to disagree with you here - a 8mm thick wide-screen, WiFi-equipped, high-resolution media player with that much battery life and a killer touch screen interface? That's just awesome - I can't think of ANYTHING on the market like it. About the only thing it's missing is an SD expansion slot, but I'm not surprised Apple didn't include one. They give you how much memory they WANT to give you, and you're not allowed to have any more. :rolleyes:

I'd much rather have something like what Zune could potentially give me, with friends sending me their songs and, if we both have ZunePass, no need to sync or buy those from anywhere. See, Zune scenario, if fully developed, would be very empowering for the users, whereas Apple's is just another way for them to make a buck out of the customers.

The scenario you talk about is indeed cool, but it relies on others around you having a Zune. And unless you live 100 feet away from the Zune team building on the Microsoft campus, I find it hard to believe that you've done much Wifi sharing with your Zune. There just aren't enough Zunes in the market to have features the ONLY work when other Zunes are involved. Apple's approach to WiFi is much more practical and real-world useful. Microsoft never fulfilled the potential of the WiFi in the Zune, and that sucks.

[Jason Dunn]

I'm skipping over all your FUD and asking about this:

Microsoft is the most beleaguered of them all, having recently sold off its Zune business to China.

Sold off its Zune business to China? What on earth are you talking about?

[The Overman]

Thanks for making your first post a great one The Overman - I always appreciate good commentary, even if I don't always agree with it. ;)


Thanks! I've been a reader for a while, and enjoy the blog. I'm glad you liked it!

T
You're right, it's a slow evolution here, but the iPod is already hugely successful, and offering 160 GB of storage for only $349 while still being a bit thinner than the Zune? That's impressive and makes the Zune look kind of bad in comparison - we'll see how thick that 80 GB Zune is, but if it's not a fair bit thinner than the current Zune, I'd say Microsoft isn't trying hard enough.


We'll see what's coming. We, at least, know Toshiba is not involved this time, so I have higher expectations.
But, honestly, this whole size and capacity race is reaching a bragging-only level. I never had portability problems with my Zune and enough space for my 6K + subscribed songs... Which, btw, if I were to buy as individual songs, I'd be spending a bundle.
I can't really say enough about how great subscription is. Granted, it's not a Zune-only feature, but it's definitively something Apple doesn't provide, and adds much more real value to the user than a couple of milimeters in the depth of the device.
(A little overdue ranting, though: what's the point of being 2 or 3 milimiters smaller if you have to wrap that all up and add that size back? I never carried my Zune on any casing and it's completely scratch free. This is another proof that the size is more of a bragging issue than a real one, because iPod users - and even iPhone users - are all happily using those ridiculous acrylic encasings and not complaining about size.)


I'm kind of mixed on the Nano...on one hand I'm blown away by a 2" screen with QVGA resolution, but that's REALLY tiny and watching videos or looking at photos. I agree that the original Nano looked more stylish than this one, but I haven't seen on in person so maybe I'll like it.


It's cartoonish... It looks like the toys and knock-offs that are made to look like the real iPod. Seriously, it lost its cool. As a matter of fact, the fist nano was still the most styllish of them all. But, you know, when you have it cracking and scratching, and lawsuits pouring, you put the new gen in an alluminum case and call it a feature :)



I have to disagree with you here - a 8mm thick wide-screen, WiFi-equipped, high-resolution media player with that much battery life and a killer touch screen interface? That's just awesome - I can't think of ANYTHING on the market like it. About the only thing it's missing is an SD expansion slot, but I'm not surprised Apple didn't include one. They give you how much memory they WANT to give you, and you're not allowed to have any more. :rolleyes:


I agree about the memory (that's why I exaggeratedly called it pretty much a nano). But everybody was expecting a hard-drive touch iPod. Everybody was also expecting great things from Zune WiFi that didn't get delivered. Why should I cut Apple some slack from not delivering it?
I don't disagree with how you describe the device but that's all due to the investiments in the iPhone, as I said before. the iPod Touch is a very hastily put together device, made of pieces from the iPhone and ends up by being an ok device because of the high quality of its original source, but really way worse than it could have been had Apple really invested in that. (Seriously, did you see the big void on the home screen?)
My point was not to say it was a completely bad device, just that it showed Apple's lack of interest/capability of doing anything more polished.
To make things worse, it backfired. To be competitive in the MP3 arena, Apple had to put the iPod Touch's price in line with its features, ie $300 (remember, it's a flash device). Problem was that it showed how overpriced the iPhone was. We are talking about pretty much the same hardware with an additional GSM radio and camera. If things were left alone, what would be the benefits in getting an iPhone when you could have the iPod touch + free phone from any 2 year contract plan with better talk time and camera quality?
The consequence was that Apple had to scramble to put the iPhone price down and p* off the early adopters... As result, Jobs had to put some additional $100 back to shut those guys off... What a mess!!!
It's difficult to believe that Apple really thought this thing through...



The scenario you talk about is indeed cool, but it relies on others around you having a Zune. And unless you live 100 feet away from the Zune team building on the Microsoft campus, I find it hard to believe that you've done much Wifi sharing with your Zune. There just aren't enough Zunes in the market to have features the ONLY work when other Zunes are involved. Apple's approach to WiFi is much more practical and real-world useful. Microsoft never fulfilled the potential of the WiFi in the Zune, and that sucks.

You are invalidating the scenario based on the low penetration of Zunes and justifying the low penetration because of an invalid scenario. It's a chicken and egg problem.

You are not wrong... For now.

However, it's been a common misconception that the Zune WiFi sharing would be to push or obtain songs from folks that one would not even see or interact with, like a real-life MySpace. People think they would be able to "find" other Zunesters on the street and interact with. That's ludicrous. Most of the times, my WiFi is off, or the device itself is off. That's not the way it could ever work.
The way I've successfully used it (and it's a really helpful feature) was when meeting with friends and talking about new songs (which is how I learn about most of the new artists that I end by enjoying). Through the WiFi they can provide me with their favorite playlists and vice-versa.
The 3x3 mechanism blows, though, because some of the songs I get are not even available on the Zune Marketplace (they ripped off their CDs or it's from some unknown independent band), and that's the part that is completely broken for me.

As I said, the store through the device is one good thing that I hope will also happen to Zune (there's no reason why not), but I'm sincerely not dying for that. When I'm fed up with my thousands of subscribed songs (very rare), I just switch to the FM radio... For free... :D

PS: Several edits for spelling...

[David Tucker]

But everybody was expecting a hard-drive touch iPod. Everybody was also expecting great things from Zune WiFi that didn't get delivered. Why should I cut Apple some slack from not delivering it?

I also disagree with quite a few of your points (and agree with many. Subscription? If you haven't tried and you knock it...you've got rocks in your head!) but man this quote just nails it. Seriously, I wish we could put a quote fo the week on the home page. It mirrors my thoughts exactly. The Zune got HAMMERED in the media at launch. It didn't matter how good it was (and is) in its current form. All the media would concentrate on was what it wouldn't do rather than what it would. I do think the iPod Touch is pretty much everything I would have wanted in an MP3 player right now. Except for the hard drive. In the end if Apple had subscription music, it wouldn't be enough. (The contents of my Zune would fill up the Touch)

[Crystal3]

Originally Posted by Phuul http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/images/zts/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.thoughtsmedia.com/showthread.php?p=124529#post124529)
Are you happy with your Zune? Does it do what you expected it to when you bought it? If the answer is yes then what is the problem?


No, I am not happy with my Zune. No, it does not do what I expected it to when I bought it. It still considers podcasts "music". It still has no audio book support. We have been told how updatable it is, but it has not been. If all I wanted was a music player, there were much less expensive options available, including the MP3 player I was replacing with the Zune. It did video and pictures,as well as music, but unfortunately, it broke.

[possmann]

You know, Microsoft always seems to come out with something on the heels of someone else’s lead – again I refer to my Palm Pilot example. Palm was clearly THE standard setter, innovator and market leader. Microsoft pulled that away from them through their steadfast “bullish” movement in development and market proliferation of the PocketPC devices.
OK – Apple is no Palm and that does pose a real problem for Microsoft. Apple has been the leader in “creative” marketplaces where Macs and Apples outnumber PC devices. Apple is all about “cool” – Microsoft has always been more focused to business first and entertainment second – and when I mean business I mean businesses that are not typically in the “creative” marketplaces – Finance, Supply Chain, Development – where the big money and deep pockets are. Therefore Microsoft is really a new-player in the arena of pure creativity focused on entertainment service and consumption of that service by a person (not a company/corporation). They just don’t seem to “get-it” when it comes to developing something that has 0 business value – Apple does.
When I mean “business value” I am referring that the service consumed by the individual person is purely for entertainment value and not for the purpose of doing work.
Given all this I really don’t believe that MS would just fold and run away. They will need a couple of versions of Zune until they get where Apple is now and I honestly don’t think that they will ever be able to beat Apple at the creativity game but they will continue to grow at their traditional slow and lumbering elephant pace until, in a couple of years, where they get the technology “right” and user friendly enough.
The other challenge that MS has always had is their marketing to the masses of individual people – there is no doubt that using a PocketPC is more cost effective than a blackberry – and arguably more efficient – but how many people fully take use of the PocketPC in the connected mode? Where is the heavy marketing push? Where are the TV commercials? Refer back to my comment where MS focuses on business and enterprise organizations rather than the person. If MS can change this (and make th Zune features and look better) where the Zune is concerned they will start seeing growth.

[Dyvim]

But everybody was expecting a hard-drive touch iPod. Everybody was also expecting great things from Zune WiFi that didn't get delivered. Why should I cut Apple some slack from not delivering it?

Uh ... these are completely different things.

The Zune device has WiFi and its WiFi features were greatly hyped ("Welcome to the Social" etc.). So I think the media and the public had every right to hold MS to task for delivering an inadequate WiFi experience.

But you want to compare this to your expectations of what type of iPod Apple (in your opinion) should have released? Who ever said they would release a HDD-based Touch? Did Apple promise it or even hint at it? Not to my knowledge. So then why should the media hold Apple to task for not delivering your dream device? That would be like blasting Zune for not having GPS. Who ever said it would have GPS? No one.

[Jason Dunn]

However, it's been a common misconception that the Zune WiFi sharing would be to push or obtain songs from folks that one would not even see or interact with, like a real-life MySpace. People think they would be able to "find" other Zunesters on the street and interact with.

I agree that your idea is great, and I've often thought the same thing - the Zune should be able to connect up to "the cloud" an interact with other Zunes that are connected, or PCs, or Xbox 360s signed into Xbox Live...there are dozens of amazingly creative, paradigm-busting concepts that are possible with the Zune - it's truly amazing when you daydream what's possible with a WiFi-equipped device connecting to a whole ecosystem of products.

But it's been 10 months and the Zune team hasn't done anything to make the WiFi more useful. Not one...little...thing. So my hope that they'll do anything to improve it in generation 2.0 is very low - they should have already done it.

I really WANT to be wrong! :D

[Damion Chaplin]

But it's been 10 months and the Zune team hasn't done anything to make the WiFi more useful. Not one...little...thing. So my hope that they'll do anything to improve it in generation 2.0 is very low - they should have already done it.

I really WANT to be wrong! :D


Our only hope is that Apple including WiFi will spurn MS into realizing that there are other things you can do with WiFi other than share crippled songs with other non-existent Zune owners. Maybe they'll change it for v.2

One thing's for sure: I will probably never buy another anything based on what the manufacturer says will happen in the future. If it doesn't have it out of the box, I won't expect it. Thanks for the lesson Microsoft... :mad:

[David Tucker]

Caveat Emptor

[The Overman]

Our only hope is that Apple including WiFi will spurn MS into realizing that there are other things you can do with WiFi other than share crippled songs with other non-existent Zune owners. Maybe they'll change it for v.2...One thing's for sure: I will probably never buy another anything based on what the manufacturer says will happen in the future.

Amen to that!
If you did buy based on promises, you should be frustrated by now, for sure. However, if you look up the archives, MS was very carefull in all the official PR I've seen to not promise anything. Not even rumors. Not even on the pseudo-official blogs, such as "Zune Insider". So I don't know which promises were you basing your decisions at, but you shouldn't.
Guess what, they didn't deliver anything else so far. But, feature for feature, I still like the Zune better than the comparable iPod. No upgrades needed. That's what made me decide for it and I'd make the same choice nowadays.
Killer features for me: subscription, big screen, rugged double shot finish, FM radio.
The new iPod line doesn't make a dent on those, except, maybe, for the touch one.

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

[The Overman]

Who ever said they would release a HDD-based Touch? Did Apple promise it or even hint at it? Not to my knowledge. So then why should the media hold Apple to task for not delivering your dream device? That would be like blasting Zune for not having GPS. Who ever said it would have GPS? No one.

So, whose opinion you are basing on to decide how the WiFi should work?
Please, define "inadequate", based on actual data and official news (not rumours or want-to lists). For all I know, WiFi in Zune works as MS always published it would, and the iPod Touch has all the features Apple published it would.
And I'm frustrated with both. So, tell me how they differ for you?

"Welcome to Social" is a punch line as much as "Think Different". They are both not contracts on anything, for sure.
If MS wants to limit its concept of "social" to a coffee bar while talking to friends and sharing playlists, and if Apple wants to limit the "Different" to how to dumb down the iPhone and save costs, well, good for both companies :)

Bad for us, customers... I'm not bailing out any of those two on those unfulfilled possibilities... But I'm not going to assume they broke any promises on either case...

***long quote trimmed by mod JD***

[Jason Dunn]

Bad for us, customers... I'm not bailing out any of those two on those unfulfilled possibilities... But I'm not going to assume they broke any promises on either case...

You're right - they didn't break any promises. They never said "We're going to be adding feature XYZ, and it's going to be awesome!". The Zune team has been 100% non-committal in every way. But when you hear Zune team member after Zune team member talk about how important the ability to update the firmware is, and how important it was that they launch the product with WiFi...can you really blame people for reading into those statements and thinking that something big would be coming?

[Dyvim]

So, whose opinion you are basing on to decide how the WiFi should work?

I'd say there's pretty much a consensus opinion on this site and other Zune sites that the WiFi ain't all it's cracked up to be. Do I really need to go into details? If you're happy with the Zune's WiFi that's great. But many people are not, and are disappointed that Zune wasn't able to really 1-up Apple on this front.

Please, define "inadequate", based on actual data and official news (not rumours or want-to lists).

I'd say the 3x3 restriction makes it inadequate. And that it can't do anything else other than squirting. Such as synching, online music store, streaming music to other players, internet access, etc, etc.

For all I know, WiFi in Zune works as MS always published it would, and the iPod Touch has all the features Apple published it would.
And I'm frustrated with both. So, tell me how they differ for you?

Sigh... one is hardware that exists in the device that has potential to be unleashed via software upgrades (that were implicitly promised by touting what a great feature Zune's upgradeability is). The other is hardware you wish was in the device but is not. Do you see a difference there?

But yeah I would have loved to see a big capacity iPod Touch as well. I wasn't contesting your right to be frustrated. I just think the 2 scenarios are different (as explained above). I'll agree with you that Apple's announcement was underwhelming although we can differ as to the degree.