Piracy - It's Just Plain Wrong!

[Pete Paxton]

"Piracy is a huge issue for the software industry, but to be quite honest its nowhere near as huge as what the RIAA and MPAA and SBA make it out to be. 50% or more of the software pirated would never have been purchased in the first place. But lets talk a bit more personally here. Myself and a band of software devs here have found a *very* large pirate warez site which I will not link to. They have cracks for almost everything imaginable. They have our software on there with download ratios in the TENS of THOUSANDS. In many cases I find more downloads of our software on the warez site than I see on our own download servers. I've calculated that even if we only lost 10% of those downloads that could have been sales its a pretty major hit. The fact is that companies like ours and most other WinMobile devs operate on a shoestring budget. Most of our software sells at a break-even point, some at a loss until it breaks even 2-4 years after introduction. For the amount of money I've "lost" I could have *easily* created a Pocket Informant for Desktop or BlackBerry or heck other major applications or improvements. I could have hired an extremely high paid developer for a year or two averagely paid ones. For a company that has only 3 full time developers that's a fairly major loss."

Alex Kac, CEO and Founder of WebIS, has a great post (http://www.pocketinformant.com/Forums/index.php?s=221fe2e344ad582d10c3c316f2a13d69&showtopic=11368&st=0&p=61900&#entry61900) regarding piracy. This reminds me of a few years ago when I had a Handspring :oops: and I purchased the program "Jot" for $8.00. A woman I worked with (and who made twice as much money as I did) asked me to give her a copy. When I mentioned that it costs money and that it would be piracy to give her a copy, her comment was "Well, I purchase so much from them that I deserve it." So does that mean that If I'm a regular customer at Best Buy I can just walk in and start taking merchandise? What's the difference? There is no difference. In both cases it's stealing and it's wrong. Why do some people feel that if a song, movie, or software app (that costs money) can be downloaded, they can just take it. I think some know they are just plain stealing. I think others try and justify taking what doesn't belong to them. I find no "deserving rights" that justify taking anything (including media or software) that should otherwise be paid for. Ok, I'm done ranting. Please share your thoughts.

[whiteks81]

This isn't really an argument as much as it's a bunch of thoughts:



Stealing is wrong. Stealing is wrong when you're stealing music from a rock band that won't actually impact them (as much as the record label), stealing art is wrong, stealing movies is wrong, stealing is just wrong.

However, digital copying - which is actually all stealing is in this case - is also trivial. Never before in the history of man has stealing something been the matter of stealing 'something' involved so little.

Stealing software is stealing information. It's stealing information that, once 'cracked', is not something you can easily put back together again. Once someone sufficiently cracks some kind of DRM/ip protection, your 'one thing' (a piece of software that is licensed for use because every 'instance' of it is just a virtual copy) is suddenly an infinite number of things.

If I steal a thing from a store, I stole ONE THING. If i want to give that thing to someone else, I don't have it anymore. If I steal a song, I can give it to every human that lives.

I think that yes, there is a moral issue, but there's also a technical issue that no one's really getting around.

You can't plug the analog hole. You can't create end-to-end encryption when you still have to convert information for processing by a human brain.

Look at the HD-DVD AACS crack. Nothing can stop that. how could you stop someone from snooping around in a computer's memory? At some point, you're going to make it impossible for a computer to compute!

You can't stop copying in a computer world; computers copy. If computers stopped copying, you wouldn't have a computer.

[Jason Dunn]

If there's one thing that this digital age has shown me, it's that morally, most people are quite immature. They will avoid things if they think they'll get caught - meaning they won't steal from a retail store - but if there's no fear of repercussion, they're all too happy to take something. That's the level of morality that a child operates on - they won't disobey their parent by taking a cookie if the parent is in the room and they know they'll get caught, but if they can get that cookie later when no one is around, they'll take it.

We live a sad, sad world.

[dommasters]

The problem is:

1. Nobody cares. Okay maybe Alex and a few others.
2. That site will grow and grow.
3. It's soooooooo easy to get for free. Why pay?
4. There's almost nothing you can do. No real legal option.
5. The site is now so big it's like a snowball effect. Some posts have 500,000 views plus!
6. Most developers will decide to no longer support Windows Mobile (it is a WM site).

You could of course:
1. Create bogus apps that format a users hard drive and place at site or
2. Hire a hitman

but that's hardly an answer. Surely the issue is that when you find a site like this you have no way of shutting it down.

Maybe mobile developers need their own anti piracy organisation.

[applejosh]

What? Software costs money? :lol:

Just kidding. As someone who has spent hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars on PDA software over the years, I still don't think I'm owed anything (and most of it sits unused now). I may choose not to upgrade without a discount, but I don't pirate the software in some juvenile attempt at "making a point."

[whydidnt]

First let me say I don't condone software piracy. It's wrong and I don't do it. I wish the world would stop too, so I can stop having to input 20 character random strings just to use software I legally paid for. (Love the PPC mag Best-of-deal!)

However, I think that the software industry does itself a HUGE disservice by overestimating the damage done by piracy. I have serious doubts that even 1-2% of the idiots downloading Warez would ever pay for the software downloaded. I also bet several download, but never use what they have stolen. By over-exaggerating the impact of this, it's too easy for people to consider the numbers as made up and completely tune out the issue.

Finally software piracy is NOT the same as stealing at Best Buy despite the propaganda spewed by intellectual property owners. If I steal a TV from Best Buy, they can no longer sell that TV to someone who is willing to pay for it. If I steal a downloaded software program, the developer can still sell the program to someone who is willing to pay for it. Best Buy is clearly damaged more by the theft than the developer in this instance. That's not to say the developer isn't damaged by the illegal download, just that developers/intellectual property owners need to understand the difference and not shout at congress that piracy is a bigger issue than Robbery, burgulary, etc.

I know my view won't be popular here, but I think everyone needs to look at this with a realistic eye. The sky is falling argument will not capture the interest of the public in whole. I can tell you that the continued use of more and more restrictive licensing and activation methods has made me reduce the number of titles I purchase and developers need to consider the impact on the end user when making these decisions.

[Pete Paxton]

My overall point isn't to say which company is going to be hurt the most. My point is to say that people will steal just because they can. Stealing is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter if it's a $3.00 software app or a $2000 plasma tv. If either is stolen - it's wrong.

[jverb]

Here's the bugger about music and video with Digital Rights Management. The music and movie industry has gone out of its way to make it difficult for me to move my legitimately purchased music from device A to to device B.

Most people are willing to purchase a track for 99 cents if it can be played on both the MP3 player and the computer. DRM thwarts that.

If I own it, I should be able to play it where I want. If I need to, I will strip DRM from my music, or get the music from a source that doesn't lock it up.

I think Apple understands that now, and here's hoping the rest of the music industry gets it soon.

[Jason Dunn]

If I own it, I should be able to play it where I want. If I need to, I will strip DRM from my music, or get the music from a source that doesn't lock it up.

I agree completely, but we're talking about software here, and that's a different sort of thing. Although when I run across software that tries to pick and chose which of my computers to install it on, that ticks me off as well...I should be able to use the software at whatever computer I'm sitting in front of, not have a "special" computer with their "special" software on it.

[Birdsoft]

I have to agree with you, your opinion probably isnt a popular one.. As it contradicts itself on so many levels...

First let me say I don't condone software piracy. It's wrong and I don't do it. I wish the world would stop too, so I can stop having to input 20 character random strings just to use software I legally paid for. (Love the PPC mag Best-of-deal!)

I know its probably not your intent, but that comes off like the only reason you want it to stop is so registering software is easier for YOU..


However, I think that the software industry does itself a HUGE disservice by overestimating the damage done by piracy. I have serious doubts that even 1-2% of the idiots downloading Warez would ever pay for the software downloaded. I also bet several download, but never use what they have stolen. By over-exaggerating the impact of this, it's too easy for people to consider the numbers as made up and completely tune out the issue.

You are kidding right? 2%? C'mon... I have to agree with Alex that it is at least 10% and probably much higher.

Just consider all the college aged kids out there would still be buying CDs and/or would be buying downloadable content, if the file sharing hadn't run crazy. I know a ton of kids that just think because everyone is doing it, its ok. A relation of mine was until recently, and he actually said he wasnt sure it was even illegal if everyone on campus can do it over the schools network, and he is a smart dean's list level college student!! So that number is probably well over 25%....

Now look at the number of Windows Mobile Device sales, and how many of those are actually buying applications.....

And yes, they wouldnt always buy as much as they've amassed for 'free', but using that idea as justification to lower the numbers and 'soften the blow' in your own mind and others is silly.....

ITS A HUGE PROBLEM!


Finally software piracy is NOT the same as stealing at Best Buy despite the propaganda spewed by intellectual property owners. If I steal a TV from Best Buy, they can no longer sell that TV to someone who is willing to pay for it. If I steal a downloaded software program, the developer can still sell the program to someone who is willing to pay for it. Best Buy is clearly damaged more by the theft than the developer in this instance. That's not to say the developer isn't damaged by the illegal download, just that developers/intellectual property owners need to understand the difference and not shout at congress that piracy is a bigger issue than Robbery, burgulary, etc.


Propaganda? See there's the big clue as to your real opinion...

Stealing is stealing!! It is a much bigger issue, whether you justify it your way or not. If I am Best Buy I have a lot better chance of policing someone from stealing a TV, so while its a bigger ticket item and "cant be re-sold", you cant steal it 10,000 times in the matter of a day... Where as Im helpless sitting here while a bunch of dopes that think its fun, give my software away and EASILY siphen way more value off of me....

Really, the way you talk about it, it almost sounds like you used to pirate a large amount of content, whether it be software or otherwise, as Ive heard a lot of these same arguments before from people who still do...



I know my view won't be popular here, but I think everyone needs to look at this with a realistic eye. The sky is falling argument will not capture the interest of the public in whole. I can tell you that the continued use of more and more restrictive licensing and activation methods has made me reduce the number of titles I purchase and developers need to consider the impact on the end user when making these decisions.

Im sure that is true to a very small extent, and I do not try to make super security systems to combat the pirates with my software. But then that attitude also handcuffs us developers not only by the pirates but by the consumers as welll...

And as with Alex, if I could even have that 10%, you would see a lot more WAY cool things to advance the Windows Mobile application world.. But instead some idiot pirates get their kicks by giving it away and we don't get that chance.... So its not only our loss, its yours....
and not just because you have to type in longer codes....

[Rocco Augusto]

You know what, I might raise a few eyebrows here, especially for my stance on users not posting links to illegal ROM downloads, but I'm all for piracy. Despite what most people would like you to believe, I have personally seen software piracy sell more pieces of software than demos and trail versions ever could. Look at Photoshop for instance, software piracy has firmly planted Adobe in the hearts and minds of everyone that even thinks about photo editing. Do you really think Photoshop would have become a household name if everyone and their grandmother didn't pirate it?! On top of that, a majority of the people I have known who pirated software, music and movies were people that would have never been able to afford to use said product otherwise.

As for cellular phone software, time and time again I see developers write annoyingly simple applications for our handsets and then try to pawn them off on users for $20USD (Bankarama anyone? :roll:) or my all time favorite, they will release a new version less than a few months after the previous version and charge their customers full price (<cough>Documents To Go</cough>).

I'm not saying people should pirate other peoples work, but I can totally understand why a large majority of people would go that route. Maybe if software developers, movie studios and record companies actually started offering quality products at fair prices, people wouldn't feel the need to steal them left and right. For petes sake (not our Pete ;)), we're talking about digital media here! It's not like they are setting up factories to make this stuff (well, you know what I mean! :)), its just copying something that is already created. I would personally want to sell 10,000 copies of a piece of software for 5.99 then selling 1,000 copies of that same software for $24.99.

This is just my two cents though.

[dommasters]

You know what, I might raise a few eyebrows here, especially for my stance on users not posting links to illegal ROM downloads, but I'm all for piracy.

Congratulations! That's the biggest pile of crap I ever read. So if it's overpriced and poor quality then you feel you can just take it? What a revolting excuse of a human being you are.

***really long quote trimmed by mod JD***

[Rocco Augusto]

Congratulations! That's the biggest pile of crap I ever read. So if it's overpriced and poor quality then you feel you can just take it? What a revolting excuse of a human being you are.

I'm sorry, did I say that I pirated software? No, because I don't and that is why I take such a strong stance against users posting links to illegal software on our board but on the same token to just sit there and pretend that piracy hurts software makers, musicians and the movie industry instead of actually helping it grow and mature, just because you feel is morally wrong, is no different then going on a board and flaming someone for having an opinion different than yours. ;)

As I said before, I have personally seen piracy help turn obscure products into household names. Maybe I just come from a different generation than a majority of users from this board but the issue is not as black and white as everyone would like you to believe.

[Jason Dunn]

...I have personally seen software piracy sell more pieces of software than demos and trail versions ever could.

That statement doesn't make any sense - how can a pirated copy of something "sell"? Or are you talking about the warez discs you can purchase in Asia? What connection does that have with the company who made the software getting money by people buying it? I don't get your point here.

Do you really think Photoshop would have become a household name if everyone and their grandmother didn't pirate it?!

I think you've got it backwards - just because something is available for pirating doesn't mean it will make it successful. It's the other way around: when something is successful because people have bought it and are using it, it creates a scenario where the people who have paid it tell others about it and then that creates demand for piracy from the people who want it but don't/can't/won't buy it. I can't think of anything that was highly pirated IMMEDIATELY - there's always going to be a user base first, people that pay for the software, then others come along and see how great it is, want it for themselves, then the piracy happens...

On top of that, a majority of the people I have known who pirated software, music and movies were people that would have never been able to afford to use said product otherwise.

That's where our current culture comes into play. We're a world full of whiners and victims, people who feel that they have a "right" to everything they can get their hands on. You can't afford software? DON'T USE IT. Find something else - especially nowadays with software, there's always some sort of a free alternative. "It's too expensive" - save your money, get a better job, whatever. I'd like an Audi TT, but it's too expensive, so what right do I have to go steal one off the lot?

...I see developers write annoyingly simple applications for our handsets and then try to pawn them off on users for $20USD

That might be valid and true (I've seen some of the same things), but that's no excuse for piracy. No one has a right to take something that someone created and use it just because they feel like it and don't want to pay. You don't like the price they're charging? Make your own version and give it away for free.

[AdamaDBrown]

Honestly, I find it puzzling that people still get worked up over this. It's something that's been going on since the very beginning of the existence of computers. Every inititive, every appeal, every restriction yet devised, has yet to stop it. I apprecciate that developers don't like that fact, but shouting at the rain isn't going to help.

whiteks81 is right: there is absolutely no way to stop it. Period. So long as information exists in a digital form, it's possible to infinitely reproduce it for basically no cost. One of the long-standing lessons here is that most efforts to squelch it are actually counter-productive, as developers which apply more and more stringent anti-piracy efforts lose their customers. A developer's best defense is to produce high-quality, popular applications for a low cost. There are tons of developers which have no problem with this. And to be blunt, it's not nearly as apocalyptic as some people make it out to be. I haven't seen this site that some people allude to, but I doubt that it's really that revolutionary in terms of the actual piracy going on there.

[AdamaDBrown]

You are kidding right? 2%? C'mon... I have to agree with Alex that it is at least 10% and probably much higher.

Actually, he's right, a fact which is backed up by independent studies.

Just consider all the college aged kids out there would still be buying CDs and/or would be buying downloadable content, if the file sharing hadn't run crazy. I know a ton of kids that just think because everyone is doing it, its ok. A relation of mine was until recently, and he actually said he wasnt sure it was even illegal if everyone on campus can do it over the schools network, and he is a smart dean's list level college student!! So that number is probably well over 25%....

Your comparison is completely flawed by virtue of being apples to oranges. Even if it weren't, you wrongfully put such activities in the category of lost sales, whereas most of those people never would buy the product if they couldn't get it for free, for the simple reason that they can't afford it.

Now look at the number of Windows Mobile Device sales, and how many of those are actually buying applications.....

And again, studies show that a great many people don't use ANY third-party applications on their devices.

Propaganda? See there's the big clue as to your real opinion...

Actually, propaganda is exactly the right word. Your assertions here aren't true, and are designed to prey on a strictly emotional reaction rather than a logical one.

Stealing is stealing!!

Really? So you're just as hurt by someone not buying your software as you would be if somebody lifted your wallet? At the very most, you're talking about being deprived of potential revenue. Not even guaranteed revenue--but the chance that you might make more money. Compare this to an actual loss of money or goods. It may be the same in your mind, but legally, you're very mistaken.

The whole thing is an incredibly silly and weak argument, a fact which is illustrated by the logical extension. Is anyone who downloads a demo of your software and uses it until they no longer need it stealing from you? After all, they're getting the value of your software without paying, right? It's that exact same conflation of potential sales with people who would actually pay for it that makes the point invalid. Take it to the most extreme end point, and anybody who doesn't buy your software is "stealing" from you, because they COULD buy your software and didn't.

Once again: this is something that has always happened, and always will happen in the computer world. It's like the common cold. Either you can deal with it, or you can't, but you can't get rid of it.

It is a much bigger issue, whether you justify it your way or not. If I am Best Buy I have a lot better chance of policing someone from stealing a TV, so while its a bigger ticket item and "cant be re-sold", you cant steal it 10,000 times in the matter of a day... Where as Im helpless sitting here while a bunch of dopes that think its fun, give my software away and EASILY siphen way more value off of me....

I hate to be the one to say it, but you're deluding yourself if you think that you're losing 10,000 sales a day of Texas Hold 'Em. And it's exactly this kind of grotesque exaggeration that completely destroys any and all credibility of anti-piracy efforts. No insult intended at all, but you come off sounding like a complainer who can't produce software people want to buy, and so blames software piracy for his low sales.

Really, the way you talk about it, it almost sounds like you used to pirate a large amount of content, whether it be software or otherwise, as Ive heard a lot of these same arguments before from people who still do...

Ah, the joy of ad hominem attacks. You do realize that by traditional rules, you just forfeited the argument to him, yes?

Im sure that is true to a very small extent,

It's true to a very great extent. You should see the number of people that explicitly seek out cracked software, even for things they've actually bought, in order to avoid the problems of security routines. Hell, it's the reason that I'll never use a non-OEM copy of Win XP.

and I do not try to make super security systems to combat the pirates with my software.

Good for you.

And as with Alex, if I could even have that 10%, you would see a lot more WAY cool things to advance the Windows Mobile application world.. But instead some idiot pirates get their kicks by giving it away and we don't get that chance.... So its not only our loss, its yours....
and not just because you have to type in longer codes....

This reminds me of the talk that was coming out of the RIAA and MPAA when they were lobbying for the DMCA. Just give us this bill, and we'll be able to deliver a completely new world of online multimedia. It didn't happen because even if they had been able to stamp out all piracy, they still didn't have the motivation to do it. I suggest you ask yourself whether some extra sales are going to make you a better coder, or if it's more likely that producing something more innovative than a poker game and PIM enhancements might bring you more attention and customers.

[AdamaDBrown]

...I have personally seen software piracy sell more pieces of software than demos and trail versions ever could.

That statement doesn't make any sense - how can a pirated copy of something "sell"? Or are you talking about the warez discs you can purchase in Asia? What connection does that have with the company who made the software getting money by people buying it? I don't get your point here.

I believe what he means is the retroactive demo factor: people buying a piece of software (or other software from the same developer) as a result of downloading it free. It sounds counterintuitive, but it really does happen, at least with music and books. I know several ebook outfits that have coopted the idea.

On top of that, a majority of the people I have known who pirated software, music and movies were people that would have never been able to afford to use said product otherwise.

That's where our current culture comes into play. We're a world full of whiners and victims, people who feel that they have a "right" to everything they can get their hands on. You can't afford software? DON'T USE IT.

I think his commentary goes to the (incorrect) idea of piracy as lost sales.

[AdamaDBrown]

You know what, I might raise a few eyebrows here, especially for my stance on users not posting links to illegal ROM downloads, but I'm all for piracy.

Well, you certainly did raise eyebrows. But you also raise a realistic point: piracy is competition. Not legal competition, but given the fact that there's no realistic way to stop it, providers of digital content and programs need to treat it that way.

[Rocco Augusto]

On top of that, a majority of the people I have known who pirated software, music and movies were people that would have never been able to afford to use said product otherwise.

That's where our current culture comes into play. We're a world full of whiners and victims, people who feel that they have a "right" to everything they can get their hands on. You can't afford software? DON'T USE IT. Find something else - especially nowadays with software, there's always some sort of a free alternative. "It's too expensive" - save your money, get a better job, whatever. I'd like an Audi TT, but it's too expensive, so what right do I have to go steal one off the lot?

This same statement can be turned on the developers. Take this quote from Birdsoft for instance

...while a bunch of dopes that think its fun, give my software away and EASILY siphen way more value off of me....

If someone uses one their programs without paying for it that gives them the right to insult them? Now I'm a fan of Birdsoft products and I can understand why they would be upset but just lashing out and calling people dopes for not purchasing a product is, in my mind, no different than someone whining that a program costs to much.

As I said before, I don't pirate software but I'm not against it either. Pirating has been around forever and instead of stomping around with steam coming out of your ears, I would find a way to turn the negative into a positive.

Take media studios for example. For years we heard them complain that TV show pirating was hurting DVD sales and I'm 100% sure pirating did have an impact on those sales but instead of just whining about it the studios wised up a bit and started offering the TV shows online the next day to be viewed by people that would have normally been downloading them. Now those same studios have a chance to advertise to potential customers that would have stolen their products otherwise.

Sure, piracy is wrong, but it is never going away. If you have tens of thousands of more people pirating your software instead of buying it then as the developer I feel it is your responsibility to find out why they are stealing it. Maybe there is something you can do to turn that negative to a positive.

Maybe the people who are pirating your software are only using Feature A and aren't using Feature B but the people that are paying for your program are using Feature A and B. Wouldn't it be wise to release a free or discounted version of your software that only has Feature A for those people that normally would have stolen it?

You're never going to convert all of those pirates into paying customers but there is always something you can do as the merchant to convert a few of them over. Even if you converted 10 pirates over to paying customers, that is 10 more people that aren't siphoning money from your pocket. ;)

[Jason Dunn]

A developer's best defense is to produce high-quality, popular applications for a low cost.

I agree completely with that.

And to be blunt, it's not nearly as apocalyptic as some people make it out to be. I haven't seen this site that some people allude to, but I doubt that it's really that revolutionary in terms of the actual piracy going on there.

I disagree here. What you're saying might be true in the world of desktop PC software where we're talking about millions upon millions of potential customers, but in the Windows Mobile world where the number of sales is much smaller, losing even 100 customers a month can be enough to force a developer to give up and stop updating their application. Now I don't know about you, but if I were to not be able to use FlexWallet (for instance) any more Windows Mobile as a platform would be much less useful to me overall. And I think that's pretty serious indeed!

[Jason Dunn]

Actually, he's right, a fact which is backed up by independent studies.

Interesting - I'm not ware of any studies regarding piracy and Windows Mobile. Care to point me to one?

[Birdsoft]

You're kidding right... Youve been around this market long enough to have figured out all these points Im about to make, in case you really believe the crap you wrote...


You know what, I might raise a few eyebrows here, especially for my stance on users not posting links to illegal ROM downloads, but I'm all for piracy. Despite what most people would like you to believe, I have personally seen software piracy sell more pieces of software than demos and trail versions ever could. Look at Photoshop for instance, software piracy has firmly planted Adobe in the hearts and minds of everyone that even thinks about photo editing. Do you really think Photoshop would have become a household name if everyone and their grandmother didn't pirate it?!


YES, from the very beginning Photoshop has been a SUPERIOR product. Really no one even comes that close. To attribute any of its success at all to piracy is beyond laughable....


On top of that, a majority of the people I have known who pirated software, music and movies were people that would have never been able to afford to use said product otherwise.


Bull!! They could afford to buy a Pocket PC, iPod, or Desktop computer to run it on... EXPECIALLY in the Windows Mobile market where OUR Prices generally ARE WAY WAY more reasonable than the desktop software you are lumping us into in your conversations....and PPCs are higher end luxury type items, so people with no disposable income arent the ones buying them!


As for cellular phone software, time and time again I see developers write annoyingly simple applications for our handsets and then try to pawn them off on users for $20USD (Bankarama anyone? :roll:) or my all time favorite, they will release a new version less than a few months after the previous version and charge their customers full price (<cough>Documents To Go</cough>).


DONT BUY IT!! If you need it then it is worth as much as they charge, otherwise find a BETTER alternative.. Just because you dont think Bankarama isnt worth $20 but you need a similar application doesnt give you the right to steal it...

Same with updates, yes I am one of the most liberal developers around on updates, but no one says you need or are entitled to any updates from what you have....If you need 2007 Office support.... Well there was a lot work put into the update to give that to you, enough that they felt the need to charge for it.. Deal with it!!!

This point that some simple application are for sale in this market has been true to some extent, BUT YOU ARENT FORCED TO BUY THEM. AND ALMOST EVERYTHING WORTH ANYTHING HAS A TRIAL!!!!!! And most of the lame/simple applications have been filtered out of the main reseller sites now, so it is a lot less of a deal now than it was....But this isnt even remotely connected to why anyone pirates...


I'm not saying people should pirate other peoples work, but I can totally understand why a large majority of people would go that route. Maybe if software developers, movie studios and record companies actually started offering quality products at fair prices, people wouldn't feel the need to steal them left and right.


Really, you feel this is true in the Windows Mobile world...? Where even the most expensive software is usually under $50. Seriously it is almost funny how the people from the Mobile world decide to lump our market in with the Desktop market. None of us are getting rich on this stuff....


I would personally want to sell 10,000 copies of a piece of software for 5.99 then selling 1,000 copies of that same software for $24.99.


Yeah, if only thats how it worked. If you really believe this then you really are clueless as to how our market works. If you believe we could all just drop our prices by 1/4 and get 4 times the sales.... Not even close!!!! Or we'd all be doing it in a heartbeat!! We all see that having 4x the people would have its extreme advantages in word of mouth advertising alone, but in the real world most people see a $5 application and dont expect the quaility of a $25 application so wont even consider it.... Good thought though....

Edit: In fact this idea might have a chance of being somewhat successful, IF there was no piracy.. The very thing you are argueing for...

Brave but very misguided post... The whole thing....

[Rocco Augusto]

Brave but very misguided post... The whole thing....

I appreciate the compliment of being brave and I respect your opinion but as a developer if you just close yourself off to even acknowledging that there is a reason that people are stealing your products besides the almighty "they're wrong, evil and have no morals" stance, then nothing will ever change and people will continue to pirate your products left and right.

If you feel that this is a misguided trail of thought, than so be it, but creatures that don't evolve usually go extinct.

[Rocco Augusto]

As for cellular phone software, time and time again I see developers write annoyingly simple applications for our handsets and then try to pawn them off on users for $20USD (Bankarama anyone? :roll:) or my all time favorite, they will release a new version less than a few months after the previous version and charge their customers full price (<cough>Documents To Go</cough>).


DONT BUY IT!! If you need it then it is worth as much as they charge, otherwise find a BETTER alternative.. Just because you dont think Bankarama isnt worth $20 but you need a similar application doesnt give you the right to steal it...

Bankarama is a nice program but I don't use it because I don't feel the price justifies the end product. As I said before, I don't pirate software but I'm not against it either. Just because I don't do something doesn't mean I'm going to try to force the rest of the world not to do it.

[Birdsoft]

Actually, he's right, a fact which is backed up by independent studies.


Show Me!


Just consider all the college aged kids out there would still be buying CDs and/or would be buying downloadable content, if the file sharing hadn't run crazy. I know a ton of kids that just think because everyone is doing it, its ok. A relation of mine was until recently, and he actually said he wasnt sure it was even illegal if everyone on campus can do it over the schools network, and he is a smart dean's list level college student!! So that number is probably well over 25%....


Your comparison is completely flawed by virtue of being apples to oranges. Even if it weren't, you wrongfully put such activities in the category of lost sales, whereas most of those people never would buy the product if they couldn't get it for free, for the simple reason that they can't afford it.

BULL. When I was in college, CDs were just getting big AND EVERYONE, I MEAN EVERYONE in all of my dorms and all of houses had CD collections in the 100s...and if anything most college student have more disposable income now.... So that is NOT true....


And again, studies show that a great many people don't use ANY third-party applications on their devices.


Yes that is obviously true. But how much is don't use' and how much is also don't 'buy'... Obviously as a developer we are already eliminating the first batch...

Actually, propaganda is exactly the right word. Your assertions here aren't true, and are designed to prey on a strictly emotional reaction rather than a logical one.

Actually using the word 'Propaganda' is more for an emotional reaction than anything I wrote.. But nice try...


Really? So you're just as hurt by someone not buying your software as you would be if somebody lifted your wallet? At the very most, you're talking about being deprived of potential revenue. Not even guaranteed revenue--but the chance that you might make more money. Compare this to an actual loss of money or goods. It may be the same in your mind, but legally, you're very mistaken.


LEGALLY, I am not!!! Thats where the general ignorant opinion hurts so much... Yes, I see where you think you can justify it by it not being 'guaranteed' income. But it is still stealing, EVEN IN THE LEGAL WORLD!! Whether you take $10 from my wallet or by taking my application that costs $10 that I need to pay my bills and spent hundred of hours on, its stealing either way.. I dont care if in the digital world the only work involved to make this theft is doing a copy of computer bits...



The whole thing is an incredibly silly and weak argument, a fact which is illustrated by the logical extension. Is anyone who downloads a demo of your software and uses it until they no longer need it stealing from you? After all, they're getting the value of your software without paying, right? It's that exact same conflation of potential sales with people who would actually pay for it that makes the point invalid. Take it to the most extreme end point, and anybody who doesn't buy your software is "stealing" from you, because they COULD buy your software and didn't.


LOL.. Now you are just getting plain silly. If you want to discuss the whole legal issue of license agreements and what I allow you to do for 10 days with 'Shareware', well then you have no grasp on either the market or the law in general...



Once again: this is something that has always happened, and always will happen in the computer world. It's like the common cold. Either you can deal with it, or you can't, but you can't get rid of it.


Thanks, I hadnt noticed.. Thats why Im liberal on my software protection and updates and have been very successfull in this market...



I hate to be the one to say it, but you're deluding yourself if you think that you're losing 10,000 sales a day of Texas Hold 'Em. And it's exactly this kind of grotesque exaggeration that completely destroys any and all credibility of anti-piracy efforts. No insult intended at all, but you come off sounding like a complainer who can't produce software people want to buy, and so blames software piracy for his low sales.


Sorry, I bet you are the only one taking it that way. I didnt say I am losing 10K sales a day, I said I very easily could without ever knowing it, but I bet you cant steal even 1 TV from Best Buy tomorrow undetected.. I would have to say your misinterpretations are destroying your credibility...
Most of us do get it.... And yes, I might be complaining a little bit...



Ah, the joy of ad hominem attacks. You do realize that by traditional rules, you just forfeited the argument to him, yes?

What rules.. Show me them...



This reminds me of the talk that was coming out of the RIAA and MPAA when they were lobbying for the DMCA. Just give us this bill, and we'll be able to deliver a completely new world of online multimedia. It didn't happen because even if they had been able to stamp out all piracy, they still didn't have the motivation to do it. I suggest you ask yourself whether some extra sales are going to make you a better coder, or if it's more likely that producing something more innovative than a poker game and PIM enhancements might bring you more attention and customers.

Sorry, Im not sure I can make enough money to do that....or take that risk.. Because people like you believe its ok to borrow my program...
And I WILL PERSONALLY GUARANTEE I am in the top 5% in skill as a developer in the Windows Mobile market... We all know each other, its a short list...

By traditional rules...I think you just lost this one.. for lack of anything remotely correct.... But another brave post ....

[AdamaDBrown]

I disagree here. What you're saying might be true in the world of desktop PC software where we're talking about millions upon millions of potential customers, but in the Windows Mobile world where the number of sales is much smaller, losing even 100 customers a month can be enough to force a developer to give up and stop updating their application.

I know what you mean, but I don't think it's entirely as relevant as all that. Remember that the WM market is expanding pretty rapidly, so a hundred customers a month doesn't mean all that it did even a couple of years ago. More to the point, you're never really going to be able to convert over all of those to paying customers, and the number of truly lost sales are proportionally sized according to the market. So on a percentage basis, I don't really see a lot of difference in WM software piracy, whether it's this mysterious website aggregating things or not.

***really long quote trimmed by mod JD***

[Birdsoft]

I appreciate the compliment of being brave and I respect your opinion but as a developer if you just close yourself off to even acknowledging that there is a reason that people are stealing your products besides the almighty "they're wrong, evil and have no morals" stance, then nothing will ever change and people will continue to pirate your products left and right.

If you feel that this is a misguided trail of thought, than so be it, but creatures that don't evolve usually go extinct.

Unfortunately, that is the initial reason... The crackers and guys who dont do anything more than buy my product, then distribute their registration code, are doing it for a "Thrill". To get one over on the system that we somehow represent. And then yes, I have never said there arent other reasons that exist, but they arent the main reasons... I guarantee that most people can afford it and would get $15-$25 worth of use out of our products, but our society has allowed the opinion that it is ok to use it for free, that damages WHY THEY DO IT the most....

And that is the point, there is no evolving away from this problem.. Its a vicious circle that occasionally you will hear rants from developers about, especially in small markets like this, because it damages us the most....If it somehow could be policed down to where it wasnt so rampant that is our only real hope...

or go on ignoring it for another couple years.. and check back to find it has grown exponentially again... and the opinions have become even more popular...

[Birdsoft]

Remember that the WM market is expanding pretty rapidly, so a hundred customers a month doesn't mean all that it did even a couple of years ago.

If only this was true.. Hopefully in 3-5 years... But in fact the market is in a switch and we can only hope continutes to develop into a big upswing.... You unfortunately assume way too much that you dont really understand...

[AdamaDBrown]

Actually, he's right, a fact which is backed up by independent studies.

Interesting - I'm not ware of any studies regarding piracy and Windows Mobile. Care to point me to one?

Not WM specifically, but they were with regard to use of pirated software on PCs. It was several years ago, so I don't know where they are anymore, but the bottom line was that only a small percentage, around 2-4% as I recall, of all downloads of pirated software were actually used by people who would have otherwise purchased the application.

[bitbank]

I wanted to add a few thoughts to the mix here. I've had my applications pirated also and it's very difficult to tell how many sales this takes away. There aren't a lot of sales to begin with so this really hurts small developers.

The WM software market is quite small even though there are now millions of devices in use. What's even worse is that the Pocket PC platform appears to be on the way out (as far as non-phone device sales) and SmartPhone/PPC phone devices are on the rise. This is a problem because SmartPhone sales of applications are a small fraction of PPC sales. I'm guessing this is because many people buy a phone and don't think to add software to it, but a non-phone PDA is purely useful based on its software.

I let my non-game applications get stale (I'm currently working on new versions) mostly because it was hard to justify the time investment in WinCE software compared to other software I was working on. I'm going to give it another try with new improved versions which work on all current devices and see if the market is actually growing.

Thoughts?

Larry B.

[AdamaDBrown]

Show Me!

You've got that backwards. You made the initial claim. You're required to provide proof that that 25% you talked about would actually buy your product.

BULL. When I was in college, CDs were just getting big AND EVERYONE, I MEAN EVERYONE in all of my dorms and all of houses had CD collections in the 100s...and if anything most college student have more disposable income now.... So that is NOT true....

You must have gone to one hell of an affluent college if everyone there had literally thousands upon thousands of dollars to spend on music. Think maybe you're exaggerating a little?

LEGALLY, I am not!!!

Yes, you are. Copyright infringement is nominally handled as a civil matter, not a criminal one, and doesn't incur anywhere close to the same penalties as actual theft. It's not in the same class.

LOL.. Now you are just getting plain silly.

The whole argument is silly when you take it to the logical next step of assuming that every pirated download is a lost sale. That's the point.

Sorry, I bet you are the only one taking it that way. I didnt say I am losing 10K sales a day, I said I very easily could without ever knowing it, but I bet you cant steal even 1 TV from Best Buy tomorrow undetected.. I would have to say your misinterpretations are destroying your credibility...

:roll: My point, since you either missed it or are ignoring it, is that you're grossly exaggerating the potential downside, here.

What rules.. Show me them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Sorry, Im not sure I can make enough money to do that....or take that risk.. Because people like you believe its ok to borrow my program...

That's a bogus excuse. You can't take a risk on the possibility of making more money?

And I WILL PERSONALLY GUARANTEE I am in the top 5% in skill as a developer in the Windows Mobile market...

I'd rather not sound like I'm being nasty, so I'm going to completely walk away from this comment.

[Rocco Augusto]

I guarantee that most people can afford it and would get $15-$25 worth of use out of our products, but our society has allowed the opinion that it is ok to use it for free, that damages WHY THEY DO IT the most....

This can easily be taken the wrong way so before I actually type it up I just ask that you keep an open mind.

You're logic here, and in previous posts in this thread, is that since someone can afford to spend hundreds on a Pocket PC or Smartphone then they can afford to spend $15-$25 dollars on your application but what makes you think the software is actually worth that much in most peoples eyes?

I personally would never spend up to $25 on a piece of software that is only viewable on a 3-4in screen. The thought of wasting that much money
is laughable to me and just because I saw the value in spending a few hundred dollars on my handset(s) doesn't mean I would see that same value in someones software.

Now on that same token, since I would never pay that much for software, I don't use Birdsoft products even though I have enjoyed them in the past. Most people don't have the same restraint as I do and would gladly go and pirate the software.

The problem also doesn't involve costs of applications either, there are a ton of developers that sell their products through third parties and those third parties do things such as charging customers for "download insurance"... Download insurance? Really?... Really?

If that didn't make matters worse, you have companies like WebIS (who started this whole ridiculous debate) who just sell rebranded versions of other peoples products! For the simple fact that WebIS is even complaining of piracy is enough to make me laugh. What are they going to do next, complain that they're losing money because someone bought Papyrus instead? :roll:

As a user and a consumer, there are just to many negatives that stand in the way for me to ever want to purchase Smartphone software, especially when there is so much freeware Smartphone apps. The only program that I do have on my device that I felt was worth purchasing was FlexWallet because it was the only program that I felt actually showed true value. Does that mean that all other software is inferior? Not at all! It just comes down to providing a service and product that is worth someone spending their hard earn cash and so far, minus the one product I have purchased, I don't really see that in the Smartphone world and I can understand why someone would want to pirate a Smartphone application.

[Birdsoft]

Show Me!

You've got that backwards. You made the initial claim. You're required to provide proof that that 25% you talked about would actually buy your product.


Nope you are the one claiming to offer proof on some old desktop studies, that may or may not have existed. All of my percentages were EDUCATED guesses and speculation and were claimed as such. But way to shift attention.... after you claimed to have factual proof....LOL


BULL. When I was in college, CDs were just getting big AND EVERYONE, I MEAN EVERYONE in all of my dorms and all of houses had CD collections in the 100s...and if anything most college student have more disposable income now.... So that is NOT true....

You must have gone to one hell of an affluent college if everyone there had literally thousands upon thousands of dollars to spend on music. Think maybe you're exaggerating a little?


Nope, I attended a small division 3 school in rural Wisconsin. And I am by no means exagerrating AT ALL... I have a collection of 250 CDs and my wife has another 120, and we arent even big music lovers... Ask around... You'll get very quick verification from anyone attending college between 1990-1998 .... A majority had similar such collections..


LEGALLY, I am not!!!

Yes, you are. Copyright infringement is nominally handled as a civil matter, not a criminal one, and doesn't incur anywhere close to the same penalties as actual theft. It's not in the same class.


SORRY, this is not Copyright infringement only. And start asking the students that are being charged around the country what kind of penatlies are involved(even settling out of court). It is a much higher penalty than petty theft.. Good try...

LOL.. Now you are just getting plain silly.

The whole argument is silly when you take it to the logical next step of assuming that every pirated download is a lost sale. That's the point.

Never did that!! I never did and never will say that all pirated copies will translate into lost sales... A PERCENTAGE OF THEM DO!!!! Why do you keep discrediting yourself by making assumptions when you can read what I wrote right above you....

Sorry, I bet you are the only one taking it that way. I didnt say I am losing 10K sales a day, I said I very easily could without ever knowing it, but I bet you cant steal even 1 TV from Best Buy tomorrow undetected.. I would have to say your misinterpretations are destroying your credibility...


:roll: My point, since you either missed it or are ignoring it, is that you're grossly exaggerating the potential downside, here.


Dude, whatever, you obviously have made yourself look foolish by what you come back with... So if you want to continue to think the downside is costing me at most maybe a half a percent of my total sales.. Then you can go on with your ignorant rants not understanding the market....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Ok, so where was I untruthful... I HAVE HEARD IT from people that continue to pirate, and he hasnt said that he never did....and where does it say I lose in your link if you did feel I attacked with non-facts... I think in all actuallity what I did is a little further down that page...

Sorry, Im not sure I can make enough money to do that....or take that risk.. Because people like you believe its ok to borrow my program...

That's a bogus excuse. You can't take a risk on the possibility of making more money?


Really... Because I would guess the last job you took was not already a pay cut like I am doing to continue to develop for a market that I like. But now to risk this modest paycheck in order to spend hundreds of hours developing "cutting edge" ideas, that may or may not be profitable...

Maybe if I had a little more income... say another 10% of sales so I could pay another developer....Hmmmm.....

If it was all about the money, I guarantee you Im a very marketable Senior Developer Type... But obviously making ends meet is important if Ive chosen to stick around this market... Otherwise I have consulting jobs lined up that I could take... I DO take enough chances...

But I really think you are unimportant, so I guess I dont really feel like jusitifying anything to a kid who is defending pirating..

And I WILL PERSONALLY GUARANTEE I am in the top 5% in skill as a developer in the Windows Mobile market...

I'd rather not sound like I'm being nasty, so I'm going to completely walk away from this comment.

Good idea.. ITS A FACT!! Whether you like my software or not is irrelevant, but you can go ahead and trash on it if you want.. I actually think it will help sales...

Ill end now as I cant stand to have a confused kid still talk down to me like they are some all knowing Smartphone market expert with a law degree and a background in economics..

[Birdsoft]

You're logic here, and in previous posts in this thread, is that since someone can afford to spend hundreds on a Pocket PC or Smartphone then they can afford to spend $15-$25 dollars on your application but what makes you think the software is actually worth that much in most peoples eyes?

Here is what I have conveyed. If you dont see the value in SP software, then dont purchase any. Like I said, all developer's are hoping to convert new users from this group, but we realize there are people that are just content with the pre-loaded applications. What causes the trouble, is the people who do see value in our applications, but pirate them and use them all the time with no compensation. And more of them that will do this, are people who can afford this.. Its wrong, illegal, and rarely if ever HELPS us, especially in this market... Which part of it is what you say as well...

But now tieing other problems in this market in with this doesnt really address this problem. Yes, download insurance is not cool! If you ask us
we'll tell you not to use it, as it doesnt apply to our software... And whatever else, but really... none of them should justify pirating.. I guaranee you XA has more code and features than a lot of desktop products costing double or triple the price.. There are a lot of SP software out there like that... so how can people not find value in some of them... and help us to make more by paying for it....

[Mike Temporale]

Wow... Now here's an interesting thread. All I do is go to work for a day and POW - 4 pages of discussion. :lol:

There's no question that stealing is wrong regardless of the format of the item being stolen. I don't see an end in sight. In fact, I imagine it will get worse before it gets better. With that said, I think that some companies have used piracy to help capture a majority share of the market. Once that is reached they start to improve the level of security in their applications.

I appreciate games and applications that don't have painful registration systems, but while that's nice to have, it's not a must have thing. It's not like I'm reinstalling every month.

And i have to agree with Rocco, in that I have a $ figure that I will not pay over for a WinMo app or utility. I'll just go without. Setting the price on mobile apps is key. Don't assume that because someone is using a $500 device that they can afford a $25 app. (that doesn't mean they should steal a copy). Just something for you to consider when setting prices. Many times I've held myself back from buying for as little as $5 too much in the price.

[whydidnt]

Well, this thread has grown since my orignal post. I won't bother with quotes since everyone knows what they said.

Birdsoft, you owe me an apology for accusing me of pirating software when I haven't. Simply because I have a different opinion than you doesn't give you the right to attack me. You also seem to think that many of these downloads come from US college campuses. The reality is that a large percentage of piracy occurs in SE Asia, Russia and Eastern Europe, where people are not going to pay a weeks salary to play a video poker game no matter how much it pisses you off. I am a registered owner of both All in hold em and your previous poker game, btw.

In addition, you frame your argument as stealing, However, I have yet to hear of one college student arrested for downloading warez. This falls under copyright law and is typically a civil matter. It's NOT the same as taking a TV from Wal Mart in a legal or moral sense. Try calling the police to report a theft the next time you find a pirated version of your software, they'll tell you the same thing. The sooner your industry gets off its high horse, recognizes this and moves on, the happier your life will be.

Regarding the argument about Piracy helping or hurting, there was a time when many developers, including Microsoft made it easy to pirate their software. Much like a dope dealer, they figured once they had you hooked, you would buy future versions. Many companies looked at piracy as a way to build market share. I'm of the opinion that it probably does, despite the act that it's unintuitive. The college student that dl your software today is the engineer that buys your software next year.

Finally, the argument that this is preventing developers from providing us with valuable software and that we better watch this or we will no longer have the quality software that we have today is pretty baseless. Software, including PPC software has ALWAYS been pirated, yet we still have literally hundreds, if not thousands o developers and titles. There are several quality examples that compare to the mentioned Flex Wallet. Someone must be making money in this market, or we wouldn't see this level of involvement and competition.

Birdsoft, thanks for proving me correct by showing how those in your industry only hurt themselves by standing by old arguments that greatly inflate the financial loss caused by piracy. Unless you have some facts you haven't provided yet to backup your claims, that is.

[Jason Dunn]

I know what you mean, but I don't think it's entirely as relevant as all that. Remember that the WM market is expanding pretty rapidly, so a hundred customers a month doesn't mean all that it did even a couple of years ago.

I can't speak for them, but I'm willing to bet that if you were to ask any "medium" to "big" developer of Windows Mobile applications if they'd really appreciate an extra 100 sales per month, I'm willing to bet they'd be thrilled. Even though the market for Windows Mobile is expanding greatly, many people still don't install third party applications. I bet it's less than 10% of people that install third party apps.

More to the point, you're never really going to be able to convert over all of those to paying customers, and the number of truly lost sales are proportionally sized according to the market

I was thinking more along the lines of the 100 sales per month being the remnant that might buy the program if it wasn't up on a warez site. Figure 1000 downloads, 900 of them by people that would never buy it anyway, maybe 10% would. All of this is theoretical of course, but I think we can agree that out of every 100 people downloading a warez program, at least a few of them would buy if it they couldn't get it for free. And that's real lost revenue for the developer.

[Jason Dunn]

Software, including PPC software has ALWAYS been pirated, yet we still have literally hundreds, if not thousands o developers and titles. There are several quality examples that compare to the mentioned Flex Wallet. Someone must be making money in this market, or we wouldn't see this level of involvement and competition.

While I generally agree with you, it's a very sobering experience to have Alex and many other top developers say that they've talked about dropping out of developing Windows Mobile applications due to the hassles involved with piracy. You can talk in generalities all you want, but when a top Windows Mobile developer says he's thinking of walking away, and that there are others like him, all the theory goes out the window: without quality commercial applications, Windows Mobile as a platform is MUCH weaker.

Trust me, I've been here since the beginning and back in the HPC and Palm-sized PC days when there were no free tools to develop, there was hardly any software for the platform. IT SUCKED. When Microsoft released free development tools, guess what happened? The marketplace EXPLODED with great software, freeware and commercial.

I really do NOT want to go back to those days when quality, full-time commercial developers didn't exist. I think if you divorce yourself from the drama in this thread for a moment, you'd probably agree.

[Rocco Augusto]

Birdsoft, you owe me an apology for accusing me of pirating software when I haven't. Simply because I have a different opinion than you doesn't give you the right to attack me.

In Birdsoft's defense, not that anyone actually needs my defense, I can completely understand his point of view. As a creator of anything it is heart wrenching to find out that others are using whatever it is that you created without giving you what you felt you deserved and I'm sure my comments about embracing piracy, even though i don't participate in it, was enough to upset quite a few people as most strong opinions that differ from what is social acceptable do in any circumstance.

Taking a look back over the last few years there are examples everywhere though of good things that have come out of piracy though such as the iTunes Music Store, Pay-per-download movies and TV shows, instant downloading and installing of high demand AAA games, the Nintendo Wii's Virtual Console, Comcast's On-Demand video service and so on and so on. Piracy forces evolution in media, whether it be software or music or video. While it isn't right to steal anything, it is safe to assume that everyone on this board has benefited from the fruits of change.

Eventually, I'm sure software companies and third party vendors will evolve as well. Instead of download insurance, maybe one day we will be blessed with a method similar to the Zune Marktplace, Live Marketplace and Wii Store where individuals purchase points from download vendors and go to town in their stores or some other revolutionary idea.

My point is that Jason is right, it will be a sad day when software makers abandon a platform due to piracy but hopefully that day won't come become we as a whole will find a way to turn something as negative as this into something positive for everyone.

[Birdsoft]

Well, this thread has grown since my orignal post. I won't bother with quotes since everyone knows what they said.

Birdsoft, you owe me an apology for accusing me of pirating software when I haven't. Simply because I have a different opinion than you doesn't give you the right to attack me.


I apologize if in fact you have never once used Warez. You are a great exception as almost anyone who has your opinion has used it and justified it in their head with similar silly arguments... And really this is what I said the first time... But Im also sorry that you have in fact bought in to the "propaganda" that the Piracy groups would have you believe...If you lessen its impact and even make it a good thing, then more people are going to do it... sad...

And I have never made any assumptions that college kids in the US are doing all of the Warez. They do their fair share, but its obvious this is a global problem and actually has roots and is even more popular in other countries. I simply compared it to the Music download industry which is also global but has legitimate abuse at college campuses, that now happen to have started to be policed. Look it up, Hundreds if not thousands of college kids that "didnt know any better" are now being sued for $1000s in damages. Hopefully that trend continues and moves on to Warez so examples are being set....

But I will give up trying to convince you and your buddy, as you obviously think you know something you don't. As a developer I KNOW the financial loss, and know personally a lot of the guys and companies that couldnt make it in this market and have since folded even offering GREAT software. And a piece of the problem is in fact PIRACY. ITS NOT HELPING OUR MARKET. Stealing is Stealing...

[ekkie]

I realize I'm about to make generalizations that can't be proved, but if someone showed me a stat stating that 1-2% of the pirate downloads are actually resulting in a lost sale, I'd still say that it would be a misleading stat.

I believe that the mentality/culture today is that if one is persistent enough, they'll find *someone* who has figured out how to crack that software or at least crack a viable commercial alternative.

If security measures were strong enough and consistent enough that people understood there's no way around paying for a type of service they really wanted, their willingness to pay could eventually change in many of those cases.

Bottom line is that I'm most concerned about what Jason just alluded to. Software companies like WebIS, Ilium, Laridian, Phatware, etc, provide some great titles that I personally rely on regularly. Whether someone would have actually paid for a title or not, we have to stop endorsing or rationalizing the idea that it's okay for someone to use something if they couldn't or wouldn't have paid for it otherwise.

In the bigger picture, I also worry that the prospect that others will crack your work and make it available for free damages the allure for future software developers considering this line of work. Why would I want to do this if my hard work will soon be made available for free?

[whydidnt]

Bottom line is that I'm most concerned about what Jason just alluded to. Software companies like WebIS, Ilium, Laridian, Phatware, etc, provide some great titles that I personally rely on regularly. Whether someone would have actually paid for a title or not, we have to stop endorsing or rationalizing the idea that it's okay for someone to use something if they couldn't or wouldn't have paid for it otherwise.


I'm not trying to rationalize it as being okay. What I'm saying is that it is a reality and no amount of complaining developers do is going to change that AND that by developers over-estimating the the impact of this problem they simply get more people to tune out to the problem. Crying wolf and accusing your customers of being thieves is no way to win market share, but that's what the BSA, MPAA an RIAA all do on a regular basis.


In the bigger picture, I also worry that the prospect that others will crack your work and make it available for free damages the allure for future software developers considering this line of work. Why would I want to do this if my hard work will soon be made available for free?

That's certainly a concern for everyone. However, we have yet to see that happen anywhere, with any platform. It's much more likely we will lose developers because the market itself is shrinking. More people are buying WM devices as phone and just aren't inclined to purchase add-on software. Even Alec, in his open letter, states that piracy is not the only reason he is concerned.

[dommasters]

You'd have to be CRAZY right now to start off a new career programming Windows Mobile. If you do then your work will be available for free within 24 hours. You will make a maximum of $0 but most likely far less :(
I phoned Paypal about that site taking money via their service. To cut a long conversation short, they couldn't give a damn - somebody else's problem.

[ekkie]

Crying wolf and accusing your customers of being thieves is no way to win market share, but that's what the BSA, MPAA an RIAA all do on a regular basis.
Well, I know you're not saying this, but let's be clear that Alex, BirdSoft, and the rest haven't accused their own customers of being thieves. I agree the problem appears impossible to solve, but I certainly don't want to belittle it by stating it's of minimal impact.

The letter, as I read it, wasn't disillusioned into believing it would cure the problem. It was an attempt to raise the conscience of those who may not understand the impact of their actions, both directly in terms of lost revenue and indirectly in terms of the moral and cultural fabric of our digital generation.

I believe we all should at least stand up for what's right, even if the perceived impact appears negligible.


In the bigger picture, I also worry that the prospect that others will crack your work and make it available for free damages the allure for future software developers considering this line of work. Why would I want to do this if my hard work will soon be made available for free?
That's certainly a concern for everyone. However, we have yet to see that happen anywhere, with any platform.
Actually, wouldn't that be near impossible to prove even if it were the case? I think this issue threatens smaller platforms far more than larger ones where a huge percentage of income stems from enterprise purchases (e.g. Microsoft software gets pirated as much as anything else, but they also profit greatly from business partnerships and contracts which is where much of their market is focused). The shrinking market you reference is certainly valid, but as Dommasters made reference to, the piracy argument can't be simply ignored.

[whydidnt]

Well, I know you're not saying this, but let's be clear that Alex, BirdSoft, and the rest haven't accused their own customers of being thieves. I agree the problem appears impossible to solve, but I certainly don't want to belittle it by stating it's of minimal impact.


Actually, I am a customer of Birdsoft's and he DID accuse me of being a thief. Mastersoft requires activation of it's software (at least Sudoku V2, the only program I purchased from them). If they don't think I'm a thief why do I have to activate? Because they think at least some of their customers are thieves and will redistribute their software. The trouble is they are correct, but all of these registration hassles don't stop the problem, they only serve to tick off paying customers.

If publishers didn't think their customers were thieves they wouldn't go through all of the registration/activation hassles, yet they continue to make it difficult for paying customers to use their software, while the stops they put in place do nothing to stop the piracy as witnessed by the site they all refer to. I can't be the only one that has stopped purchasing software from some publishers because it's too much of a hassle to legally use, and quite frankly there are almost always decent alternatives available without these issues.

[bitbank]

Mastersoft requires activation of it's software (at least Sudoku V2, the only program I purchased from them). If they don't think I'm a thief why do I have to activate? Because they think at least some of their customers are thieves and will redistribute their software. The trouble is they are correct, but all of these registration hassles don't stop the problem, they only serve to tick off paying customers.

Is it really that much of a hassle to type in a 5 digit code one time?

The "dynamic registration model" that Handango and other distributors use to protect their software is not very good protection against piracy, but I always assumed that it wasn't too offensive for the users.

whydidnt - Are you really that annoyed at typing in a 5-digit code? Are you constantly hard-resetting your device and having to re-enter registration codes?

For all of the DRM and copy protection schemes cooked up for music tracks, software, movies and so forth, I always considered this to be the least offensive. I guess I was wrong. What would be a better method of protecting software that doesn't hassle the users as much as typing in a 5-digit code?

L.B.

[whydidnt]

It's not the 5 digit code that I have that much trouble with, it's having to register and "activate" the software with the publisher that I truly disdain. I do reset, change devices, etc. quite frequently. Having to maintain a list, look up all of the codes and re-enter them when I do this is really a PIA, btw. I can live with the entering codes, but having to go back to the publisher to reactivate software I already own is too much for me to want to deal with. In addition, may publishers use much longer codes (how that helps prevent piracy is beyond me, but I'm sure it must be perceived to, as more and more are doing so.)

[ekkie]

If publishers didn't think their customers were thieves they wouldn't go through all of the registration/activation hassles...
I understand your frustration, but that rationale doesn't quite work in my opinion. That's like accusing the TSA of thinking I was a terrorist just because I have to go through their increased security measures or thinking immigration officers assume I'm illegal just because I have to answer some questions when entering a country.

You said it yourself. Some thieves do disguise themselves as legit customers. Aside from a name and email address, these companies and developers probably know nothing about you, so perhaps it's not necessary to take it personally. Where you seem to differ from the developers most is on the most effective method.

Whether we like it or not, we all pay a price for others dishonest behavior... that unfortunately just seems to go with the territory.

[Birdsoft]

Actually, I am a customer of Birdsoft's and he DID accuse me of being a thief.

Actually, he didnt.. Go back and read all the posts.. I implied that there was a good chance that with the opionions you have, you may fall into that category. I never actually said that you did, and if you are going to stay with the stance that you never have, then I actually apologized for making that connection. Your buddy just took that implication and made it more than that to help his own "Im smarter than you" attempt....

But that also means you have bought into the piracy 'propaganda' without drinking the Kool-aid... And for that, if it is true, is very confusing, but I guess you should be commended for...!!

[Hal Goldstein]

Piracy is a key issue for all of us involved with Windows Mobile. Even if "only" 10% of sales are lost, that has a huge effect on the entire ecosystem. Not only are developers affected, but so are web sites like this and magazine like ours, which is supported by advertisers (developers). Our Best of Everything Software package www.PocketPCmag.com/CD, which helps support the magazine (tons of top Windows Mobile software for a huge discount) is affected in an obvious way.

Is piracy inevitable -- yes and no. I really think education has a value. When something is easy to do (copy software, music, etc), and other people are doing it, it is easy to fall in the trap of doing it also. However, if people are reminded online, in print, or best, in person, that doing so is wrong, most folks, who think of themselves as honest, will get the message.

I've always hesitated to write about piracy at our web site or in our magazine, because I didn't want make people aware that it is easy to obtain software illegally. (There are LOTS of people, and many of our readers who are not aware of such web sites.) On the other hand, perhaps it is best to take a stand and make it clear that copying software is wrong, and it damages the entire Windows Mobile ecosystem.

Hal Goldstein
Owner/Publisher/Exec Editor
Smartphone & Pocket PC magazine
www.PocketPCmag.com