The Palm Foleo: I Just Don't Get It

[Pete Paxton]

The laptop is a very innovative device. To be able to put virtually all the power of a desktop pc into a thin box that runs on a battery, has a full size keyboard, an optical drive that plays and burns, a big hard drive, lots of ram, beautiful screen, and can handle third party apps. It’s a very useful product. <br /><br />Even the variations of the laptop have been innovative. Take the Tablet PC. As a teacher, I can walk around the classroom moving from student to student, enter grades, and take hand written notes all on a computer without needing to sit down or use a flat surface. The UMPC has taken the power of the laptop (with a full OS) and made it even more mobile. And of course we have pocket pc phones and smartphones which have taken many of the abilities of the computer and placed them in the window (I didn’t want to use the “p” word) of our hands and eliminated the need to carry a separate phone. <br /><br />Enter in the Palm Foleo, a laptop sort of looking device with a 10 inch screen and full size keyboard. It’s innovativeness? Hmmm, hold on, I’m still thinking, oh I know – nothing! <!> <br /><br />Now I know what some are thinking. What about the low $500 AR price? My current laptop is a dual core Pentium with a gig of ram, 14.1" screen, 100 gig HD, DVD play/burn and Vista Premium for $549 with a $50 gift card without a rebate. Ok, what about the size of the Foleo? Here's where I really don't get it. It's not small enough to fit in your pocket. It doesn't have a touch screen so you'll have to put it on a flat surface to use the keyboard. I would probably carry it in a case to protect it. Well, if I'm going to have to do all this, why not just take my laptop? Is it really that much more cumbersome? <br /><br />What about it's functions? Now rather than discuss what the Foleo <i>can</i> do (because it's a pretty short list), I'd rather discuss what it can't do. It can't give me a 14.1 inch screen, it can't give me an optical drive, it doesn't have a full operating system so I can add third party apps, it isn't pocketable, it really isn't any cheaper than a laptop nor is it really any less cumbersome. Ok, so what can the Foleo do? It can give you 10 inches of email, note taking, and internet surfing all in a product you are going to physically use almost in the same way as a laptop. <br /><br />So it comes down to this: If I'm a business person and I take a trip where I will need to do some light note taking, check some emails, lightly surf the web, and perhaps watch a movie on the plane, I'll just take my Dash smartphone. It's very capable of all these tasks. If I need to do more, I'll throw my laptop in a case, take it and use it the same way I would the Foleo but with 10 times the functions. I just don't see where the Foleo fits in. It's too big to be as mobile as I'd like and not powerful enough to provide all the functions I need. It's not going to replace the laptop or pda phone so is Palm really advocating that we need yet another device? So do you agree or disagree? Feel free to convince me I'm wrong.

[scottb]

I agree with everything you stated. I don't know where that device is intended to fit in. :roll:

If I don't need my laptop, I use my Q. If I need more power/size, I take my laptop. I see no need for a "half-laptop" device.
In fact, I see little need for the typical computer user to even get a desktop any more--I haven't used one in years. I guess the real advantage would be the price.

[Stinger]

I think it'll be a niche product but it does have some positives, such as instant boot up and decent battery life.

[Mike Temporale]

My original thought was that this was perfect for an executive. But the OS that Palm picked has really killed the item before it even got out the door. Linux isn't a supported desktop OS in most companies, so getting the IT department to agree and support it will be difficult. Second, Since it's not Windows or a Windows variant (like CE, Mobile, or embedded) it will be difficult to add that custom line of business application to it.

I want to like it - I do. I just can't figure out where it will fit in to the market. I can't help but think that Palm would have been smarter to spend the time and money on coming up with a new mobile device that doesn't build upon the same old Treo from years gone by. :roll:

[bitbank]

This looks like another useless product that some engineer convinced the company to create. There are plenty of slim laptops that are much more useful and not much more expensive. In the case where my smartphone is too limiting, then I will bring my slim laptop. This product really looks like the 5th wheel. I've even brought my bluetooth keyboard on trips where I thought I would be doing a lot of email on my phone and that is a lot more practical than this foleo device.

It's just another a solution looking for a problem...

L.B.

[nosmohtac]

I want to like this device too!! I think the marketing behind it isn't all that bad other than the OS. If it were to have CE or XP on it it would be great.

I believe there is a place for this device to fit in the marketplace. MS and other OEM's have been telling us for years that they were going to make a device like this (UMPC) that runs a full OS and will only cost around $500. Show me one UMPC on the market near that pricepoint.

I think many people would love to have a device like this that is instant on. I don't have a problem waiting for my laptop to come out of hibernate, but there are times I'd love it to be instant on. If Palm's claim is true then many people would also love to have a device that is this slim and easy to tote that lasts 5 hours connected to WiFi.

I have a Dell XPS M1210 with a 12.1" screen. With what I added this laptop retails for more than $2600 and most of the time I could get by with what the foleo does. I've seen very few ultra portables for less than $1500. (I know everyone's needs are different, but I don't consider a 14.1" laptop as ultra portable. I carried one around every day for 6 mo before getting a real ultra-portable.)
My XPS extra capacity battery was $149 and claims 7 to 9 hours. I get maybe 3 to 3 1/2 hours surfing while connected to WiFi.

It's far from perfect, but I think they'll sell a bunch of these things. If they aren't very successful, I might try to pick a used one up (for a bargain) for traveling a little lighter, and who knows maybe Palm will get it right on the next model. :wink:

[onlydarksets]

I see no need for a "half-laptop" device.

I like that - the "half-top"!

[bsoft]

This is an HPC2000. It may be newer, faster, and have a better OS, but that's what it is. Microsoft already did this, and it already failed in the market.

That said, I think that the Foleo could be a success. There are a LOT of people like myself who already have a laptop and/or desktop but want a smaller device.

Here's what the device can offer, hopefully:
- Instant on. Suspend gets you close on a PC, but HPC2000 could resume instantly, and I suspect this will too.
- Long battery life. With no hard drive or power-hungry CPU, we could be looking at 10 hours of battery life. That's something that few laptops can come close to.
- Durability (no hard drive).

Linux is key here. Assuming that the device isn't horribly locked down, Linux means that I can do things like SSH into my remote server and run a VNC session over encrypted SSH. Or I can run a Remote Desktop session to a Windows server. I could install Firefox if I wanted a better browser.

I go to classes most of the day. I need a machine that lets me look up stuff on the Web and lets me take notes. That's it. I have a smartphone (Dash), but it accomplishes neither of those objectives (screen is too small to browse the web easily, keyboard is too small to type up notes). This could. And it could do so with (theoretically) much better battery life than the twice as expensive, twice as heavy notebook I use every day.

[Rocco Augusto]

Pfft, I think I'll spend a little extra bit of extra money and grab a HTC Shift when they come out. The screen might only be 7-8 inches, but it is running Windows Vista and is powerful enough to have the Aero enabled. If I'm not mistaken, it also comes with a 30GB HDD, 1GB RAM and WiFi (maybe Bluetooth as well). Plus, who wouldn't love a UMPC which has built in GSM/GPRS/EDGE and UMTS/HSDPA functionality?! ;)

[Sven Johannsen]

Pfft, I think I'll spend a little extra bit of extra money and grab a HTC Shift when they come out. The screen might only be 7-8 inches, but it is running Windows Vista and is powerful enough to have the Aero enabled. If I'm not mistaken, it also comes with a 30GB HDD, 1GB RAM and WiFi (maybe Bluetooth as well). Plus, who wouldn't love a UMPC which has built in GSM/GPRS/EDGE and UMTS/HSDPA functionality?! ;)

Yea, I'll pick one of those up for $500 too.

I'm not sure I'll like the Foleo either, but if it provides a bit better browsing, e-mail, etc and is real light, it might be worth exploring. There are lots of times (Starbucks, Panera, the fountain outside the local theatre), where I would enjoy a bigger screen, and easier user input than I can get on a SP or PPC, but I really don't need a whole laptop. I have a Sony TX series BTW, and that is about as compact as they come. It was a bit over $500 though.

I just hope they let this thing work with any PPCPE or SP. If I have to have a Treo for it, no go.

[TechExec]

As a road warrior, I have been using an HP Jornada 720 for six years waiting for a manufacturer to finally develop a UMPC that is priced reasonably. I have a laptop and I have a phone. But occasionally, I need something in between.

But smartphones are just too small to be ergonomically useful, and Windows Mobile 5, or even 6, is just too limiting.

Laptops often don't have the battery life for a whole day of usage, like a phone or PDA.

I want a form factor like the Jornada, perhaps a little wider, with the standard road warrior tools, including Office (Word, Excel, Powerpoint OR EQUIVALENTS), WiFi, Bluetooth. With WiFi, I don't care if it connects to my phone like the Folio, especially since VoIP is spreading quickly.

The UMPC's are hopefully evolving, especially the price, but I think Palm is missing the mark for this market with the Folio.

[GF]

Please read Jason's article:

http://www.smartphonethoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=88778&amp;sid=9b276999bff995155e64a3c05b9834c6

Based on what you said, nobody will buy a $2000 light weight laptop because the screen is small, the cpu is slower and no built-in DVD burner...etc. Your computer can play iTunes, does it means nobody will buy iPod. Also did you include the software cost?

Please think in this way: If you are given a Foleo, how are you going to use it or who is going to use it? Then you will find the answer. Why people buy iPod, is it because of its versatility? No. Because it does one think extremely good and easy to use.

[superrrguy]

I've had the tiny Sony Vaio with the 8" screen. Then the Toshiba Protege Tablet. I like having a small device. I've had every pda from the days of the Sharp Wizard. I even considered the Microsoft Mirra tablet. I like these palm top devices but I also use a desktop, laptop, pocketpc (non phone) and smartphone. At home I browse the web on my PocketPC, IM, and maybe watch a little TV with Slingbox.

I want a device that has 6" to 8" high res touch screen with a keyboard that flips like a tabletpc with a jog wheel with "instant on" with a few gigs for storing data, that has a browser that supports web standards, a full Exchange client (notes too!!!) and support for common attachments, IM, Skype, Slingbox, a media player, remote desktop. It should have Wifi, Bluetooth (to connect through you phone's highspeed access), and maybe EVDO...etc.

Is that too much to ask?

Oh yeah... it should be light but be able to withstand a slight drop, a battery that lasts the whole day and cost about $500.00

The closest I've come to this is my Toshiba E805 PocketPC with 8 gigs in flash cards and and external keyboard. I touch typed this with the on screen keyboard.

[whydidnt]

It's not that this is completely awful idea/form-factor. It's that Palm has seriously goofed on the delivery. It's only got 256 MB RAM, with half that reserved for the OS, etc. You have to bring your own storage in the way of CF/SD cards. We don't know the exact specs, but it's not an x86 processor, so you won't be running all of those Linux programs out there unless the author decides to port it to Palm's version of Linux. We haven't see that happen on previous Linux based internet appliances, such as the Nokia, PepperPad, or even the Sharp Zaurus PDA.

It's underpowered, can't even run flash movies. One of my biggest gripes about surfing on PDA's is how much slower the internet experience is compared to a PC on the same network. With a low power processor having to push around even more pixels, this is sure to be dog slow for most any typical website. It's too big and heavy for it's intended purpose.

Then, there just aren't enough functions here to make this work. If it were about a pound lighter and a few inches smaller with a lot more functionality, then they could possibly have a winner. But, it needs:

-At least 16 GB embedded Flash Memory. We want to carry our documents with us.
-Fast enough processor/browser combination to adequately display/run any web page, including YouTube.
-Built in Media player that can play standard Divx or Xvid files and MP3's.
-A solid stand alone email client that can sync with your smartphone, exchange server OR just connect to your POP3 accounts.
-A quality PIM suite that syncs with your smartphone. If I want to make an appointment from an email I'm reading on this, I don't want to have to go to the Smartphone to have to enter it - that's just stupid, Palm.
-A solid built in IM client that can work with AIM, Yahoo, MSN, etc.

I think there is definitely a market for a small, cheap device that provides the full internet/email experience. I know many people that have computers and ONLY use them for these things. The entire windows experience is overly complicated and expensive for this purpose. However, we have yet to see any device deliver a reliable alternative at a good price point. Almost every alternative internet device is either slow, doesn't properly render web pages, or has some other issue that makes it a poor choice for people who just want these functions.

Palm could have hit a home run by targeting this market, instead they decided to chase a market that doesn't exist and to top things off did it badly with a terribly unimpressive, underpowered device.

[superrrguy]

I totally agree with 'whydidnt'.

I've installed so many computers for people that just needed an internet device, especially family members. My 78 year grandfather checks his email, does some online banking, listens to some news from the mother land, and likes to do some internet gambling.

It's great to have 3rd party application support, but when you call a device an Internet Device or what ever Intel, Microsoft, Palm, will be calling it, you have make sure that you have the INTERNET!!!

[dstrauss]

My bet is the couple hundred Foleos Palm manges to sell will be gathering dust on eBay by January 15 with starting bids of $9.99.

[Jason Dunn]

Pfft, I think I'll spend a little extra bit of extra money and grab a HTC Shift when they come out.

A "little" extra? I bet the Shift will be pushing $2000 USD when it comes out.

The Foleo, at $500 initially, is 25% the cost of the Shift.

There are some valid concerns being raised in this thread, but I think everyone keeps forgetting the $$$ factor. I have a small/light laptop as well, but it cost me $2500! There is NO LAPTOP ANYWHERE for $500 that even close to being as thin, light, and lasting 5 hours like the Foleo can. You can't discount that being important for some people. Not everyone, but some people.

[Pete Paxton]

But here's my point. Most people who own a smartphone already own a laptop because the Foleo just isn't powerful enough to be a main computer. I'm not saying there isn't some convenience to the Foleo, it's just I can't see purchasing a third device that doesn't offer that much more convenience. $500 is a lot if it's "in addition" to the laptop and smartphone you already have. If I'm sitting on a plane and the guy next to me uses his Foleo and I use my laptop, is it really that much more inconvenient for me to use my 14.1" laptop with many more features? I'd rather spend $90 on another battery and use my $549 laptop. And to hear someone say "Now I can leave my laptop at home" just doesn't make sense to me. Even if someone has a desktop at home and needs a machine to travel with, a 12.1 or 14.1 laptop with an extra battery still makes sense to me.

[Jason Dunn]

Yup, I get your point Pete - it's a valid one. I might get something like this, just because it's useful to have a small and mobile writing tool that doesn't cost much, but you're right in that most people aren't going to think that way. I think the product has potential, but the real question is how many other people will think the same way... I guess we'll see!

[Pete Paxton]

I'll be my own devil's advocate. When this thing comes out we may see people begin to use their laptops as desktop replacements and take the Foleo and their smartphone when traveling. Let's face it: in technology we're always finding ourselves surprised when something sells way more or way less then we thought it would. I mean come on, who would have guessed a year ago that the Wii would outsell the PS3 by five to one 8O

[midtoad]

Pfft, I think I'll spend a little extra bit of extra money and grab a HTC Shift when they come out.

You'll spend a little more money? Try 4 times more! Even the HTC Advantage, which only runs Windows Mobile, costs close to $1500. In other words, you could buy 4 Foleos for the price of one Shift. That might be the right decision for you, but there'll be lots of people that just want a simple, instant-on notetaker with a good keyboard (you won't be able to type very fast on the Shift since the keyboard won't be full size).

As always, YMMV.

[galatians51]

I was on the fence with this one, I was in the market to find a device larger than a PDA and smaller than a laptop to surf the web from the couch/kitchen table. The Foleo looks interesting, but kind of overpriced for what it actually did.
Fortunately this week on WOOT, they were selling a Nokia 770 internet tablet for 129 bucks! I bought one, it looks like a good solution for me, we'll see how well it works.

[onlydarksets]

I was on the fence with this one, I was in the market to find a device larger than a PDA and smaller than a laptop to surf the web from the couch/kitchen table. The Foleo looks interesting, but kind of overpriced for what it actually did.
Fortunately this week on WOOT, they were selling a Nokia 770 internet tablet for 129 bucks! I bought one, it looks like a good solution for me, we'll see how well it works.

If anyone is interested in it, you can get it for $139 shipped ($5 more than Woot after shipping, but with a return policy) from Buy.com:
http://www.buy.com/prod/nokia-770-internet-tablet-internet-tablet-2006-software-edition/q/loc/101/204081472.html

[midtoad]

If anyone is interested in it, you can get it ... with a return policy) from Buy.com:

Wrong! They explicitly say right in the product description that no returns are allowed with this product:

Special Returns Policy
Due to manufacturers' policies, Buy.com cannot accept returns on this item for any reason. The manufacturer will handle all exchanges and replacements. Please contact the manufacturer directly and they will assist you with repair or replacements. NO REFUNDS ARE AVAILABLE FOR THIS PRODUCT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. THIS PRODUCT CAN ONLY BE RETURNED FOR REPAIR OR EXCHANGE.

[onlydarksets]

I stand corrected on the return policy. What's with the snarkiness?

[galatians51]

I like this little Nokia, it's perfect for what I need. Doesn't sync PIM, doesn't do a lot of stuff but surfs the internet quickly and easily. Plus the screen is absolutely gorgeous!

[presence]

I stand corrected on the return policy. What's with the snarkiness?

Thats what I thought, until my display stopped working. Once I was past the 14 day buy.com return period (by a WHOLE day), buy.com refused to help me.

Now, nokia will not honor the warranty because buy.com is not a "authorized" reseller. Here is the note from nokia here:

"However, please be advised that if you have purchased your Nokia 770 Internet Tablet from an unauthorized retailer such as Buy.com, your device's warranty is invalid and we recommend contacting the original place of purchase for repair or replacement options."

DO NOT BUY THIS ITEM (or probably any item) from buy.com. You will get hosed. You will have an inoperable device that lasts maybe a month, even if you have treated it with respect and care. Once its inoperable, you will have no recourse to pay for repairs which will most likely be more than your initial investment.