So Is It All Just About Looking Like an Apple?

[Jerry Raia]

I have been watching the evolving threads here and on some other boards about this new Apple creation. Personally, I'm not impressed. As a phone it seems mediocre, as a Smartphone (if they even try to call it that) I'm certain it is severely lacking. What is even more interesting though is the latest development of Apple apparently going after sites and people for duplicating the look. It occurred to me that maybe all this new thing really is, is form over function in a way. Nothing more than a pretty interface to rub your greasy fingers all over and a tired music player design inside. When you compare it to most of what we talk about here on these pages, I think it comes up way short. Does it look good? You bet. It looks so good that people are racing to duplicate it. Duplicate it to put on the devices we really like and use. See my point? Is Apple worried about people skinning their phone because once they have, they have captured the most interesting thing about it? Maybe so, because if they have made such a super power device, it will fly off the shelves instead of off a blog page. Your thoughts?

[ctmagnus]

I'm thinking it's all about the UI. The iPod is amazingly easy to use, and if they can duplicate its simplicity with the iPhone then...

[Rocco Augusto]

so Apple can completely disregard the law and steal another companys product name, get sued over it, and still not change their own product name... but homescreen makers cannot use a few images?

this is why i will never buy an Apple product ;)

[Jerry Raia]

but homescreen makers cannot use a few images?

You would think they would be flattered. The more I think about it the more it smells like the only thing worth protecting is its looks.

[Rocco Augusto]

well i guess in this case whoever comes to market with a useable product first wins. Apple has peaked the interest of everybody with the looks of this device. if homescreen makers can make some fabulous homescreens, like Juni has, and get enough attention from the public, then no one will buy the "iPhone" since they can duplicate the looks elsewhere. who really wants to spend $600 for a glorified finger smudge machine?

[toby]

wow, sounds like some serious sour grapes here. from what we've seen so far, the interface is far beyond anything else out there, including all of Microsoft's offerings, as far as aesthetics and integration go. Yes, a lot of the functionality is available now (Google maps, music player, chat style sms) but no one has even come close to the integration and style that the iPhone has. Not sure about you guys, but if the functionality is equivalent or better (and the Google maps, email and browser, among other things certainly look to be much better than current MS Smartphone equivalents) than I would most certainly rather use the better looking one. If you're going to be interacting with something day in and day out, why not use the one that pleases your aesthetics more? And that will actually sync with my Macs as well as PCs instead of just utterly ignoring other platforms' existence, like my SDA does? It could be argued that the Zune was nothing more than a Microsoft attempt at a "form over function" ipod, and they just got show up on that front as well, by a long ways.

[Kris Kumar]

I personally think that Apple's iPhone is more than just looks.

Is it a revolution as Steve Jobs is claiming? well yes.
Is it an innovative product? no. It just manages to get all the pieces in the package just right.

If six months from now if the phone functions as Mr. Jobs claims, then they would have truly started a mini-revolution. UNFORTUNATELY Apple's pricing strategy keeps this revolution out of the hands of many. The folks who need it.

I think there are users who do NOT need Smartphones. They need a music player, video, internet, personal email and camera. These folks buy Windows Mobile devices, Treo or BB. These devices are great, they are flexible (as the iPhone theme screen on Smartphone and Pocket PC proves) but does it means that it is easy to operate. No while WinMo is powerful, it does take some getting used to.

I am not saying that Apple's phone interface is easy. But it is FUN. People would dismiss the little bit complexity for fun. Overall by keeping out the third-party apps and by cutting down on true smart phone functionalities, Apple has created a phone for the consumer market. While it will be out of hands of the many, those who will buy it will find it to work just as advertised - nothing more, nothing less and of course it will look cool and make its user look cool.

[Pete Paxton]

I guess I'm just happy for everybody. If I didn't own a phone and the iphone was out today - would I get it - maybe. I'd still want to see what's out there and what needs I have. However, since I have a dash, would I sell my dash, add about $350 and switch to Cingular just to get this phone? No. I'm very happy with my dash. I'm satisified if the user is satisified with what ever they have. My wife has a moto v710 flip phone. While she thinks some of the functions on my Dash are cool, she'd just as soon have her simple flip moto. When the iphone comes out I'll probably still be happy with my dash. Which phone will be better? Depends on who you ask :D

[juni]

They did the same thing when the "aqua" interface came out - had a few prominent skinning sites remove some skins - and after a while they calmed down.

I think the iPhone skins give them some free advertising and feed the hype. :)

(No, I haven't been contacted, but my homescreens don't go as far as the other hacks I know of for the pocket pcs)

[Anthony Caruana]

I think you've missed the real point of what the iPhone has done. Sure it has pretty icons and I agree that there are some elements of the hardware design that aren't all that great (no 3G - although I'm told that 3G is on the roadmap, only one camera spring to mind). The real innovation is in the UI but you have to look past the icons to see it. They have a gesture-based touchscreen UI. Not a point and poke interface, not a stylus as a mouse UI btu a real gesture driven system.

Watch the keynote and look at the way Jobs drags objects, uses two fingers to zoom in and out on images, uses smarts to zoom in on parts of the screen when they're tapped.

I suspect that what the iPhone will do to the market is change the way people expect to interact with their phones and other computer systems. That's what I reckon (and have blogged at http://www.thepdaguy.com/view_post.php?id=388).

[stevew]

I think the iphone does have some inovation. The switcing from portrait to landscape just by the turning of the device. The finger draging and dropping, the browser function to name some. Would I buy one. Nope. But I hope Microsoft will now get off it's a** and start inovating Windows Mobile. They still have the same crappy browser, no office apps for smartphone for example. They need to come out with a OS and UI that excites the masses as Apple has done. Maybe now they will.

[rdecker]

I would not hold out alot of hope for Microsoft. Apple has had OSX out for years and MS is still trying to make an innovative OS to compete.

I am spoiled with the data rates on my Blacjack so the iPhone is a non-starter until it does 3G. In addition to that it has to be able to edit/view Office Files and also allow me to connect to my office exchange server.

Since Cingular is the one selling this maybe they will allow the latter via their Xpress Mail client.

Without these kinds of features; I'll stick with Windows Mobile.

[Yorch]

I remember asking 2 or 3 years ago a program that had the features that the Media Center Portable had, all those features the Pocket PC already does it flawlessly, just not integrated and not pretty. That is exactly why the Pocket Pc hasn't gone mainstream faster. Now with the iphone, we come to the same thing, I hope somebody copies this and makes a program that will integrate, audio, video, pictures and other programs seamlessly with thumb driven controls.

Hello, Coreplayer, Resco, SPB and all other mayor software houses, are you listening?... This could very well be the killer app for Pocket Pc.

[SteveHoward999]

I would not hold out alot of hope for Microsoft. Apple has had OSX out for years and MS is still trying to make an innovative OS to compete.


That, of course, is a matter of opinion. I've been using PC and Mac for years, and I'm still trying to figure out what is so special about the Mac.

The same will apply for the iPhone. Some thing the finger interface is wonderful. Others worry it's a smudge-fest waiting to happen, and complain they won't have an decent data entry options.

They'll all be right in some way or an other. Some will be happy with the quirks, some will find them unusable.

Meantime, I think iPhone skins for PocketPC and Symbian are just silly.

[Macguy59]

and a tired music player design inside. When you compare it to most of what we talk about here on these pages, I think it comes up way short. Does it look good? You bet. It looks so good that people are racing to duplicate it. Duplicate it to put on the devices we really like and use. See my point? Is Apple worried about people skinning their phone because once they have, they have captured the most interesting thing about it? Maybe so, because if they have made such a super power device, it will fly off the shelves instead of off a blog page. Your thoughts?

That tired music player design . . . last I checked . . . is still kicking everyones ass. Speaking of tired designs see Windows Mobile :wink: How about you see how it does when available? At least the Zune bashing is based on actual use of the device.

[WorksForTurkeys]

If I didn't need it for work, I wouldn't have a smartphone or a ppc phone. the iphone has nothing in it that makes it any more attractive from a work-standpoint than any other smartphone, and not having 3G (Edge in NYC is pitifully slow and criminally expensive) makes it less useful for work than my Q. this makes it very difficult for me to justify it to my employer (who is still struggling to understand that Treos are not the only smartphones available).

that it plays music and movies is actually a reason for my ultra-conservative employer to refuse to accept it as business equipment. when it achieves 3G, and when GSM 3G is actually useful nationwide (and not just a marketing device) as is EVDO, then the iphone may be acceptable as a business tool.

this doesn't mean it won't sell; I think it will sell as well as the ipod has. it just means that in it's current design, it isn't an appropriate corporate business tool.

[alex_kac]

so Apple can completely disregard the law and steal another companys product name, get sued over it, and still not change their own product name... but homescreen makers cannot use a few images?

this is why i will never buy an Apple product ;)

Its not a released product. Apple didn't steal that name - people were calling Apple's "iPhone" an iPhone for years. Its just that the company that Cisco bought happened to register it properly in the US. Apple owns the iPhone trademark throughout the rest of the world. And it seems like Apple was negotiating to get the US one too and Cisco became blockheads and sued simply because Apple announced it.

Also to my mind, the people who dismiss Apple's stuff - iPods, OS X, or now the iPhone as simply "eye candy" just don't understand and frankly that's OK. Some people are happy with a Toyota and some people are spoiled and only like BMWs and Bentleys :)

The iPhone isn't perfect. There are going to be lots of little issues and a few big ones. One handed use does not exist with the iPhone. Try using it efficiently while driving (OK technically, we shouldn't be using any phone while driving, but...). And the typing part seems to suck as I like tactile buttons. It simply will not compete against users who want a BlackJack, Treo, BlackBerry, or what not because we need what those phones offer. But the iPhone will be a really good phone (better than any Windows Mobile device no matter how great the apps we write for it) that works better for email viewing, photos, music, web browsing, and those lifestyle basics.

[ksb]

The real innovation is in the UI...a gesture-based touchscreen UI. Not a point and poke interface, not a stylus as a mouse UI but a real gesture driven system.Actually, that's my problem with it. Since many gestures will require two fingers, Apple's iPhone is a two-handed device (this is also why I prefer WM5 SP to PPC). Further, the lack of hard buttons means that "blind dialing" is all but impossible.

[toby]

Also to my mind, the people who dismiss Apple's stuff - iPods, OS X, or now the iPhone as simply "eye candy" just don't understand and frankly that's OK. Some people are happy with a Toyota and some people are spoiled and only like BMWs and Bentleys :)
you hit the nail on the head here, and what I was trying to get at. sure my sda does a lot of the stuff that the iphone will do, but the iphone experience just looks so much smoother and more integrated and just plain more enjoyable to use...besides, what's wrong with some eye candy? why not smile a bit when you make a call or receive an sms or scroll through album covers? the zune tried that tact, and i don't see people around here or on zunethoughts knocking it for trying.

[Macguy59]

The real innovation is in the UI...a gesture-based touchscreen UI. Not a point and poke interface, not a stylus as a mouse UI but a real gesture driven system.Actually, that's my problem with it. Since many gestures will require two fingers, Apple's iPhone is a two-handed device (this is also why I prefer WM5 SP to PPC). Further, the lack of hard buttons means that "blind dialing" is all but impossible.

Actually what concerns me more is what happens if the screen dies? No way to make or receive calls.

[Anthony Caruana]

The real innovation is in the UI...a gesture-based touchscreen UI. Not a point and poke interface, not a stylus as a mouse UI but a real gesture driven system.Actually, that's my problem with it. Since many gestures will require two fingers, Apple's iPhone is a two-handed device (this is also why I prefer WM5 SP to PPC). Further, the lack of hard buttons means that "blind dialing" is all but impossible.

Actually what concerns me more is what happens if the screen dies? No way to make or receive calls.

The dependence on the touchscreen is not that different to many of the devices we are already using. While you might retain some functionality with the smartphones we have today they are mostly useless without their touchscreen.

BTW - I think you've missed some of my point - Apple rarely releases a piece of technology without some larger purpose. The new touchscreen (which I think is made by Synaptics - see an update of the blog post I referred to earlier) and the UI points to a very big change in the way many devices work.

[Macguy59]

The dependence on the touchscreen is not that different to many of the devices we are already using. While you might retain some functionality with the smartphones we have today they are mostly useless without their touchscreen.

Sure but you would still retain basic phone fuction which IMO is a big deal.

[Pete Paxton]

I don't see it as Toyota vs BMW or Lexus. I see it more like a SUV vs a minivan. Just depends on what you like more and which suits your life better. I'm serious when I say my wife would not trade her moto v710 straight across for an iphone. To my wife, her v710 is the BMW or Lexus. She doesn't want any type of computer phone. There is no "better" phone. It just depends on what you want/need.

[subzerohf]

There is one term that was mentioned a while back in this forum .... caressability. The iPod has it; therefore Apple has made a killing with it. The question now is whether the iPhone has the same level of caressability. If it does, then people will dig it, period.

[Mike Temporale]

There is one term that was mentioned a while back in this forum .... caressability. The iPod has it; therefore Apple has made a killing with it. The question now is whether the iPhone has the same level of caressability. If it does, then people will dig it, period.

Bingo. Doesn't matter if it suits your needs 100% or not, if it's caressable then people want it and buy it. I find my Blackjack caressable. :D

[Sven Johannsen]

I finally managed to view the demos on Apple's site. Had some issues with the proprietary Apple viewers required to see them. Actually looks pretty cool. The UI part anyway.

I'm curious to see if folks will actually commit themselves to $50 + a month for 2 years and Cingular for the privilege of paying $500 for this thing. Why $50?, well $29.95 is about the cheapest voice plan you can get and if Cingular lets you get away with the unlimited MediaNet thing, that's $20. Don't see folks wanting this without the voice and data capabilities. Without it it's another iPod.

Wonder what unlocked ones will go for :?:

Anybody seen a shot of the back? How do you get the SIM in...or out? Apple never has really liked doors, for things like replacable batteries...messes with the aesthetics.

[WorksForTurkeys]

There is one term that was mentioned a while back in this forum .... caressability. The iPod has it; therefore Apple has made a killing with it. The question now is whether the iPhone has the same level of caressability. If it does, then people will dig it, period.

Bingo. Doesn't matter if it suits your needs 100% or not, if it's caressable then people want it and buy it. I find my Blackjack caressable. :D

not that I'm arguing with you, but would you have bought your Blackjack for $500? How many non-commercial customers will pay $500 for a non-business usable phone?

caressable is nice, but Apple really needs to break the corporate market: for example, my employer alone represents a 170,000 cellphone users globally. at least 50% use Treos. (I'm not part of that 50%) will those people be able to switch to an iPhone? probably not, because our internal support groups will simply not support an entertainment oriented device and the company will not reimburse or approve the costs for an entertainment device.

most of these people probably own ipods, but I doubt they will pay $500 out of their own pockets for an iPhone they cannot deduct or submit for reimbursement.

[juni]

I'm glad there are some more phone options out there. I like Windows Mobile: I think it is the one OS Microsoft has gotten right of them all.

I also like the idea of the iPhone, simply because it is a sexy device (then again, I think my wife's HTC Star Trek is a sexy device too :D).

What if a WM device maker had come out with the iPhone (and it was running WM)? You'd all be all over it. ;).

[Anthony Caruana]

most of these people probably own ipods, but I doubt they will pay $500 out of their own pockets for an iPhone they cannot deduct or submit for reimbursement.

Hehe - in Australia, the law specifies that the device has to be available unlocked or can be unloacked at no cost.

Also, the tax system here would allow the iPhone to be purchased as a salary sacrifice - it's purchased from pre-tax salary meaning that you can reduce your taxable income.

Given that the iPhone is likely to cost about $1200AUD (unlocked, no phone company subsidies) many people will be able to buy the iPhone for about $700AUD.

As the same rules don't cover "straight" mobile phones (PDAs are OK) or iPods, the iPhone might actually be a good value purchase.

[Stinger]

...and a tired music player design inside.

Tired compared to what? WMP for Smartphone? I know which one I would choose.

I think you've totally missed the point of the iPhone. Yes, most of the technology and software it uses is available on phones not just announced for release in June but actually available today.

However, the same can be said for the iPod. It's rivals all have equivelent products and most of them have more features. Yet the iPod continues to outsell all of its rivals by a significant distance.

What Apple are renowned for is taking technology and creating an integrated experience that anyone can use and packaging it in a sleek and desirable casing. If they do the same for the iPhone then they will have a winner on their hands. Assuming they don't get sued into the ground first. :)

caressable is nice, but Apple really needs to break the corporate market: for example, my employer alone represents a 170,000 cellphone users globally. at least 50% use Treos.

I don't agree at all. Globally, RIM, Microsoft (HTC) and Palm have almost the entire enterprise market between them. Yet if you add their sales together they still look insignificant compared to even one of the smaller consumer handset manufacturers like Sony Ericsson. The consumer market for call phones is massive and absolutely dwarfs the enterprise sector. That's why RIM has started to market phones like the Pearl.

[Jerry Raia]

Thanks for all the comments! I own an iPod, in fact I've owned 3 of them. I like them. It's a great device. I just don't want my phone strapped to its back. The iPod hasn't changed much since it came out. That is what I mean by tired. That isn't a bad thing for an iPod. By the way, I don't care for Media Player either. It's nice that these things are included on the Smartphones. The cameras, the Media Player etc. They should be like a desert, not the main course. This is just an opinion of what I like is all. I don't want my Smartphone to look like a Playskool toy and that's what this iPhone reminds me of. To even announce a product like that at that high price is a bit egotistical.

[alese]

...
I don't agree at all. Globally, RIM, Microsoft (HTC) and Palm have almost the entire enterprise market between them. Yet if you add their sales together they still look insignificant compared to even one of the smaller consumer handset manufacturers like Sony Ericsson. The consumer market for call phones is massive and absolutely dwarfs the enterprise sector. That's why RIM has started to market phones like the Pearl.

Total sales of RIM, Palm and Microsoft combined is still far behind what Nokia is selling in Business/Smartphones segment...
While I agree that consumer market is potentially huge in terms of number of unit sold, most of this are cheap/bargain devices sold for under $100, many times even given for free with new contract. I really don't see people jumping from their cheap phones to $500 iPhone.

[toby]

The iPod hasn't changed much since it came out. That is what I mean by tired. That isn't a bad thing for an iPod.
Well, the iphone is in many respects the next generation of ipods... are you saying the iphone doesn't represent a change to the ipod as far as interface and use go? The music interface alone is completely different from existing ipods and looks to be a lot nicer. How is that tired?
don't want my Smartphone to look like a Playskool toy and that's what this iPhone reminds me of. To even announce a product like that at that high price is a bit egotistical.
A Playskool toy?! I guess we can agree to disagree, but the Blackjack is one of the least attractive smartphone devices to date, while the iphone is understated and clean. Kind of like comparing an A6 to an Aztek.

I guess I should expect an MS Smartphone enthusiast site to dismiss competitors, especially one from Apple, but a lot of this is on the brink of delusion.

[Macguy59]

Pretty strong opinions on both sides and I wonder why since neither has had actual hands on with it. Some people have a surreal hatred of all things Apple. Those are easily dismissed for what they are though. Some people also think that pretty much anything Apple puts out is automatically the best in existence. Common ground people. Strong opinions are fine so long as they have a basis in fact.

[Jerry Raia]

Yeah the colorful little buttons remind of a playskool toy. Delusional is an awfully strong way to brand an opinion but so be it. Most Apple fanatics get very emotional about their apples. I remember a story of a guy who put the insides of a PC into a Mac case and he was getting death threats for doing it. If this thing succeeds I won't be hurt in anyway. It is not a Smartphone (or even close) so this is like comparing a blender to a Smartphone. As we have been consumed by this thing the last few days though, I just threw my opinion, not delusion, into the pile. :wink:

[toby]

Yeah the colorful little buttons remind of a playskool toy.
All right, I guess we'll chalk it to up to peoples' aesthetics being wildly different. I have an MS Smartphone and elegant is probably the last word I'd use to describe it. In fact, I found it quite unbearable to look at until I found some decent themes (a lot of which were trying to make it look like a Mac, but I digress).
It is not a Smartphone (or even close) so this is like comparing a blender to a Smartphone. As we have been consumed by this thing the last few days though, I just threw my opinion, not delusion, into the pile. :wink:
I guess this is where I am confused. How is it not even close to a smartphone? Are you talking specifically about the MS version (hence the capital S)? If so, then yes, the iphone is not even close...and that's not a bad thing in my opinion. As far as functionality goes, though, how is it not even close to a smartphone, in the generic sense? The email capabilities look as though they'll be much better than what I have on my SDA, as well as the Treo 650 I used to use. Same with the mapping functionality. Same with the browser.

And yes, I know none of us have actually used one. That's why I find it funny that it is being so readily dismissed around here, especially for being form over function. Again, the Zune was touted as having a superior and more advanced interface over the ipod and a bigger screen...not too much else besides squirting songs, which sounds a lot like form over function. And yet zunethoughts was launched. Is it just because it's a Microsoft product? Apple isn't the only company with "fanatics" I guess.

[Jerry Raia]

Of course I am a fanatic, that's why I'm here! Smartphone is defined as the MS flavor here, you are correct about the capitol S. I don't think the iPhone is a bad thing at all. If we are going to talk about it on an MS Smartphone site and in that context, then it will take a beating, so to speak, here. I'm not dismissing it either. I just don't think it will go anywhere. I'll either be right or I'll be wrong. In 100 years no one will care.

[Macguy59]

Of course I am a fanatic, that's why I'm here! Smartphone is defined as the MS flavor here, you are correct about the capitol S. I don't think the iPhone is a bad thing at all. If we are going to talk about it on an MS Smartphone site and in that context, then it will take a beating, so to speak, here. I'm not dismissing it either. I just don't think it will go anywhere. I'll either be right or I'll be wrong. In 100 years no one will care.

Then one could reasonably ask why you posted a front page story about it if not to bash a device you clearly think isn't a smartphone to start with. Surely your opinion could have been given in one of the existing threads :wink:

[Jerry Raia]

Because I can. :P

[Macguy59]

Because I can. :P

That should answer further inquiries. Have no problem at all with you not liking the iPhone but I do have a problem with you going out of your way to point out a dislike for a device you haven't seen or used. I'll look for smartphone discussions somewhere else from now on.

[Jerry Raia]

Way too much emotion over a phone. Sad.

[Macguy59]

Way too much emotion over a phone. Sad.

That cuts both ways Jerry but we agree on at least one thing. It is sad. Good luck.

[sojourner753]

In my life have I rarely encountered two religious debates that have sparked so much passion and fury.

1. Windows vs. Mac
2. Republican vs. Democrat


Anyway, the one thing that I admire about Apple is they're ability to capture the customer's imagination. True the feature lists are often stunted for Power Users, but Apple understands UI and UE.

User Interaction and User Experience. Apple gets it right and at the right time. They revolutionized the digital music player industry and they've made a showing of something fresh with the iPhone.

Tiime will tell how functional it its. Don't get me wrong, I'm a friend of the touch screen, but the lack of hardware buttons and stylus (at least I haven't seen one) has be skeptical.

WM OEMs have been lax in the UI innovation standpoint since they bulldozed PalmOS. But there's a new player on the field, and they were all (including Microsoft) were caught with their pants down.

Sadly I suspect MS' answer to the iPhone will be on the Zune plaform and not in the Windows Mobile one.

Would I buy an iPhone? No. It looks great and will probably have a seemless integraton between phone and player. Music is a small part of my day. That and the fact that I enjoy the fliexibilty, feature set, and freedom of 3rd party apps that Windows Mobile provides.

[Sven Johannsen]

Well, I wouldn't be entirely offended if called a Windows Mobile fanboy, but I have to say I'm intrigued by the user interface if nothing else. I own a couple of MP3 players, even a Portable Media Center, but they are not used nearly as much as the productivity functions on my PPC/SPs. For that reason the iPhone doesn't really suit my needs. I mentioned it before, but again I wonder if the sorts that really are more entertainment oriented are going to jump at the chance to shell out $500 and then $50+ per month for two years to Cingular. Remains to be seen how those dynamics go.

On the other hand, after recently having upgraded a device to WM5, set it all up and downgraded back to WM2003, built up another device with some utility apps and configured them to my liking, and upgraded some applications on both my PPC and my Wife's, I am not sure if I wouldn't welcome a device that is what it is, out of the box, and I can't spend time, money and effort setting up. ;)

[Mike Temporale]

Then one could reasonably ask why you posted a front page story about it if not to bash a device you clearly think isn't a smartphone to start with. Surely your opinion could have been given in one of the existing threads :wink:

:? Erm.... This is what the site is all about. Hence the "News, Views, Rants & Raves" part of it. We post our rants and raves and welcome discussion on it. Jerry posted a new front page thread because the original thread was about Apple's new iPhone and it's announcement. Jerry's post was directed at speaking his mind and getting feedback. This kind of thing happens all the time on the TM sites.

[Mike Temporale]

That should answer further inquiries. Have no problem at all with you not liking the iPhone but I do have a problem with you going out of your way to point out a dislike for a device you haven't seen or used. I'll look for smartphone discussions somewhere else from now on.

You know, it's funny - So many people are preaching the good word of Apple. The iPhone is going to save us all - It's the new world of mobile devices - It has an interface that's never been seen before - It can slice and dice - etc. I think it's funny that people are so willing to jump up and stand behind something that they haven't seen anything more than a short little internet video on. There are so many unanswered questions about this device it's not even funny. If this was an MS phone and the battery wasn't replaceable and you couldn't install 3rd party apps, and there was no 3G, and the battery capacity was unknown, and the CPU spec was no where to be found - most of the people that are defending the iPhone would be attacking Microsoft for missing the target on all these features. However, since it's Apple and it has a pretty UI all is forgiven. :roll:

[Jerry Raia]

Apple fans tend to be irrational at times. We criticize Microsoft things all the time and nobody really goes over the deep edge. Maybe it comes from Apple being the underdog all the time in most areas.

[Rocco Augusto]

Its not a released product. Apple didn't steal that name - people were calling Apple's "iPhone" an iPhone for years. Its just that the company that Cisco bought happened to register it properly in the US. Apple owns the iPhone trademark throughout the rest of the world. And it seems like Apple was negotiating to get the US one too and Cisco became blockheads and sued simply because Apple announced it.

It doesn't matter what people have been calling the iPhone the "iPhone" for years as long as Apple wasn't calling it that. The moment Apple announced the phone with the name "iPhone", it became stealing. It doesn't matter if Apple owns the name in the rest of the world, they are releasing it here in the United States where they do not own the name and were aware of the fact they did not own the name. If this was Microsoft and not Apple, the internet would still be lit up with stories about how horrible of a company Microsoft is. The tables shouldn't be turned because the company at fault is Apple.

What if a WM device maker had come out with the iPhone (and it was running WM)? You'd all be all over it. ;).

I couldn't... the smudges would drive me insane! It doesn't matter that Apple made this device or the fact that it is the iPhone. I just cannot bring myself to use a product that requires a touch screen like that. I find myself constantly cleaning them due to how mucked up they get.

The earlier comment about more devices turning to this method saddens me more. I would be a man without a gadget :(

Total sales of RIM, Palm and Microsoft combined is still far behind what Nokia is selling in Business/Smartphones segment...
While I agree that consumer market is potentially huge in terms of number of unit sold, most of this are cheap/bargain devices sold for under $100, many times even given for free with new contract. I really don't see people jumping from their cheap phones to $500 iPhone.

Also keep in mind that price is with a new 2 year contract which means you cannot get the discounted price on a new handset for 21 months. A device this expensive will not qualify for insurance either which means if you accidentally cause physical damage to the handset, it will cost you almost $800 to purchase a new one. This will be one of the main downfalls of releasing this device through a carrier like Cingular. Hopefully, if Apple is smart, they will offer special insurance through their own channels outside of Cingular's/AT&T's insurance provider. If not I doubt many people would feel comfortable taking the plunge.

And yes, I know none of us have actually used one. That's why I find it funny that it is being so readily dismissed around here, especially for being form over function. Again, the Zune was touted as having a superior and more advanced interface over the ipod and a bigger screen...not too much else besides squirting songs, which sounds a lot like form over function. And yet zunethoughts was launched. Is it just because it's a Microsoft product? Apple isn't the only company with "fanatics" I guess.

We do our fair share of gadget bashing on this site daily. It doesn't matter if this was an Apple product or an HTC product. If you search through the forums you will see countless threads of us dismissing devices left and right for things like Jerry's hatred for media buttons or my hatred for anything that involves my finger constantly rubbing up on a glass/clear plastic surface.

As for the Zune, I know several people that have dropped their iPods in favor of the Zune because they hate the iPod interface and wanted the larger screens. Personally I would rather have a Zune over the iPod as I like the Zune interface better.

Apple fans tend to be irrational at times. We criticize Microsoft things all the time and nobody really goes over the deep edge. Maybe it comes from Apple being the underdog all the time in most areas.

My points exactly, but can you really blame them? With all of the ill feelings and dislike that is constantly fed to them by Steve Jobs during his keynotes you couldn't help but get angry. It is the number one thing that turns me off about anything Apple. They have some fantastic products and great software but his constant bad mouthing of other companies, constantly accusing everyone of stealing everything from them, and his superhero ability to weave a magical quilt of "spin" out of two acorns and a piece of string make me unwilling to buy anything from him or his company.

The part that bothers me is that so many people will sit around and gobble the hatred up day in and day out and viciously attack anyone else who has opinions that differs slightly from theirs. I said it before and I'll say it again, if it was Microsoft in Apple's position we would all be ganging up on Microsoft. It shouldn't be any different because it's Apple

[toby]

As for the Zune, I know several people that have dropped their iPods in favor of the Zune because they hate the iPod interface and wanted the larger screens. Personally I would rather have a Zune over the iPod as I like the Zune interface better.
well, that was my point. the interface does matter, and the iphone's interface seems quite a bit ahead of anything else out there.
My points exactly, but can you really blame them? With all of the ill feelings and dislike that is constantly fed to them by Steve Jobs during his keynotes you couldn't help but get angry. It is the number one thing that turns me off about anything Apple. They have some fantastic products and great software but his constant bad mouthing of other companies, constantly accusing everyone of stealing everything from them, and his superhero ability to weave a magical quilt of "spin" out of two acorns and a piece of string make me unwilling to buy anything from him or his company.
in my personal experience, this is absolutely untrue. I used windows from 3.1 until XP before I switched to the Mac for my full time system. I switched for a lot of reasons, namely a lot of system instability, and mostly for the interface. It had nothing to do with watching Jobs's keynotes and getting riled up with hatred for Microsoft products. It had everything to do with my own personal dislike of Microsoft products after using them for so long. I simply enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the experience of the Mac. when I purchased my SDA, it was in hopes that Microsoft had resolved a lot of the issues I've had with their products after hearing that Mobile was the best Windows to date, but unfortunately it wasn't to be. They got a lot of things right with it (I love the T9 contact search) but there's so many little things that bug me, and the devil is in the details. The iphone simply seems like it gets a lot of things right, at least things that count to me. And again, it will sync with my Mac as well as windows, unlike WM that completely ignores the existence of the Mac. I know I'm not in the target market, but the state of the phone market was dire enough for me to give it a try. This looks to be changing.
The part that bothers me is that so many people will sit around and gobble the hatred up day in and day out and viciously attack anyone else who has opinions that differs slightly from theirs. I said it before and I'll say it again, if it was Microsoft in Apple's position we would all be ganging up on Microsoft. It shouldn't be any different because it's Apple
this is a pretty broad generalization. people who use apple products aren't simply mindless zombies for Jobs. are people who fight for MS products soulless corporate slaves with no aesthetic sense? I didn't think so. it's kind of funny how circular this thread is.